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Are close friends of the gender you are attracted to okay when you're married?


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Thanks for the great replies and a few thoughts.

 

Carhill, I really like your take and you clearly have some experiences similar to what I am dealing with.

 

You're exactly right, my friend wants everything on her terms and it's really mostly about her right now. Yes, she does ask me how I am doing and will sometimes ask me about my issues but most everything centers on her right now. Therefore when I have provided her the comfort, advice and an ego boost she needs she kind of just vanishes back into the "dark". If I don't reach out after a few days she will reach out again because, I believe, she wants to make sure I am still available to her.

 

 

As to why we have never hooked up. Well, we have both been with our significant others since we met. When I met her she had already been living with her soon to be husband for about three years and I met my wife right around the time we started hanging as friends.

 

I do think that if we had both been single we would have dated and, in fact, there was a time where she was thinking about leaving her boyfriend (husband) and I know had that happened we would have ended up dating but that never happened and we just continued on as friends.

 

Also, Basil67, I don't consider "work shopping" issues through friends "using" your friend - us guys do it too. What is "using" behavior, however, is when you just reach out when you need support but then go completely "dark" until you need support again. But I do understand that my friend is in a very tough emotional place right now so I try to give her a break.

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Consider yourself an anonymous cluster of electrons on the nether of the internet. Do you ever wake up and think about this friend first instead of your spouse? Is she on your mind? If she is, that's trouble IMO. No need to answer publicly, it was simply a reiteration of a question our MC asked me. You'll get a wide variety of opinion here and I've seen it in real life too, on where the boundaries of fidelity and appropriate marital behavior are. Your wife and you decide your boundaries. We have no say in that matter.

 

If, back in the day, you in retrospect feel you and this female friend would have dated had you/she not otherwise been involved, evolution hopefully has occurred. I mention that because length of friendship/marriage shared and what is termed MLC or mid-life crisis, which often has middle aged people reliving or focusing on their past and lost youth. It doesn't happen to everyone but some get it and some go completely sideways from it. Also, while hormonal change from menopause is more obvious in women, men also go through hormonal changes in midlife that can affect the brain and emotional function. If any of you are in that period of life there can be transient organic causes for a multitude of apparent emotional and behavioral issues. That doesn't absolve anyone of responsibility but rather can provide an explanation for the issues and assist in their resolution.

 

Still, IMO self and marriage/family first, friends and acquaintances/others second. Good luck!

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I don't communicate with any women I knew before I got together with my wife, and I don't hang out with women one on one or give them my contact info. Any benefit of having female friends pales in comparison to the potential complications it might bring to my marriage.

 

For example, if central is having a movie night with some woman every week, having dinner and wine together, swimming in her pool, then her neighbor's perception that sees this going on is that he's banging her. Even if she tells everyone he's just a friend. Public perception that I'm disrespecting my wife like that is not something I'm interested in.

 

I guess everyone has their own thing but my greatest pleasure in life is the exclusive emotional and physical intimacy I have with my wife and it seems silly to risk damaging it to hear some other woman's opinion on a movie.

 

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I guess I don't see what the problem is. If you and your friend have no attraction to each other, then why can't you have coffee with her? I don't see any difference between having coffee with a male of female friend. If your wife has bad vibes about her, then of course you shouldn't be alone with your friend, but why is she intimidated?

 

If your wife isn't normally the jealous type, then she is probably picking up on something from your friend that you don't want to see. But if she is jealous of any female friend that you have, then that is her problem, not yours. Sometimes I want to see my friends without my husband tagging along. It's nothing personal against him, but he doesn't have to follow me everywhere. I certainly wouldn't cheat on him. By the same token, it wouldn't bother me if he had coffee in a public place with a female friend. I know he wouldn't do anything.

 

On the other hand, it would bug me if he wanted to go to a movie alone with a woman after hours, but he wouldn't do that, and it doesn't sound like you want to do that, either.

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You're exactly right, my friend wants everything on her terms and it's really mostly about her right now. Yes, she does ask me how I am doing and will sometimes ask me about my issues but most everything centers on her right now. Therefore when I have provided her the comfort, advice and an ego boost she needs she kind of just vanishes back into the "dark". If I don't reach out after a few days she will reach out again because, I believe, she wants to make sure I am still available to her.

 

Your wife is smart. Women can sense when other women are moving towards their husband/boyfriend with ulterior motives. Your long-time female friend created a triangle between you, her and your wife because of her separation from her husband. 

 

She definitely wants access to you 24/7 as her emotional support system WHICH can lead to dangerous territory since you two have such a long history together. Platonic history, yes. But that doesn't mean your female friend won't, at some point, crave physical and emotional intimacy from a man again.

 

And since you are the closest target to her, she knows she has access to you and possibly will target you for that physical intimacy. Just beware that could be her ulterior motive at some point. Your wife isn't being jealous or insecure. Like I said, we women know when another woman is planning something.

 

For example, my brother-in-law works with a woman whom I met when I went to register at the temp agency for work and was assigned her as my recruiter. The woman oozed sexuality and wouldn't stop gushing to me about my handsome, intelligent brother-in-law. She also would blatantly flirt with him the day I was there (he saw me give him the evil sister-in-law eye too).  

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Thanks for the additional responses.

 

So, upon reflection, here is where I am coming down on this now. First, I do understand my wife's feelings and her reasons for worrying but I do not feel it is reasonable to expect a partner/spouse to not have communication with a friend whose friendship predates the marriage if there has never been any prior romantic relationship. Of course there should be boundaries but those boundaries should be reasonable.

 

For instance, I do not think there is a problem if you are having communication via text, or phone, with your friend a couple of times per week as long as you are open about it and nothing is being said, or written, that you would have an issue with your spouse seeing. I also don't think it's unreasonable to grab coffee  or lunch (not a drink or dinner and a movie) with your friend once a month in a public location if your spouse knows about it.  

 

And sorry, but I don't think you need to artificially include your spouse in activities with your friend and here's what I mean by that. Obviously if there is a party, or group event,  your spouse should be your first invite and something like this would be a good opportunity for your spouse and friend to bond. But, on the other hand, if I haven't seen a friend for a month, and I want to catch up with them, I don't think I should have to bring my spouse along because  that's really like bringing a chaperone.  

 

Ultimately, I do get the concern in these situations but trust has to be part of any relationship and my experience is that people ultimately do what they want to do - you can't control anyone. I also think that the more controlling you are on your partner you are almost setting up a situation for deceptive behavior. To give you analogy ( I think that's the right term) when I was a kid we always had soda in our house - my mom was a prolific Pepsi drinker. I knew I could have Pepsi whenever I wanted, or at least I thought I could, because my mom never made a big thing out of it. I had these friends, however, whose parents made such a big deal about having soda that whenever they could sneak around and get it behind their parent's backs it was a huge deal. And this is what I think can ultimately happen when your partner/spouse tries to put you on lock-down. I tend have always taken the "loose grip" approach in any relationship I have had.

Edited by Faithful1975
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If you're going to go this route, as you say keep everything as above board as possible. Given that you don't have your wife's consent/approval it seems like you're risking a lot to be this person's emotional crutch. Sure, that's what friends are for sometimes, but not at the risk of damaging that friend's marriage. If she has other friends and support, why does she need you specifically?

 

At any rate, as per Watercolors' post what's your plan if she starts to draw you into inappropriate intimacy (e.g. kissing)?

Edited by mark clemson
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Faithful1975 all I read are convenient excuses that you're making to justify the emotional affair that's most likely going to lead to a physical one with your long-time, recently divorced, female friend. And yes, it is an emotional affair since your female friend technically could go cry on the shoulder of her girlfriends, or better yet, a marriage and family therapist, or women in a divorce support group. 

You are not respecting your wife's feelings AT ALL here. You are totally dismissing her feelings by going behind her back to text this female friend. I don't believe that you will disclose any texting, emailing, instant messaging or "coffee meetups" with this woman to your wife. Why do I think that? The way you responded with this statement: 
 

Quote

Of course there should be boundaries but those boundaries should be reasonable.

 

Reasonable boundaries do not involve going behind your wife's back, which you will have to do, because your wife does not want you to be this woman's emotional crutch (and rightly so, b/c she knows this woman will seek more than emotional support from you eventually -- most emotional affairs turn into physical ones, just read the stories in the cheating forum). 

Can you honestly admit that you will NOT go behind your wife's back? What if your wife wants to look at your cellphone text messages. Will you let her or will you protect your text message exchanges by accusing your wife of snooping and being jealous? A solid marriage means ALL devices are transparent. Yes, boundaries need to be in place but as her husband, you should have nothing to hide from your wife and if you deny her the right to your phone or computer that's reason to distrust you. Will you really tell your wife, "Hey, I'm going to [her] house for lunch or we're going out for coffee..." and not expect your wife to be a little suspicious? 

My brother-in-law has female friends that he's known since high school. Yet, he has NEVER gone behind my sister's back about when he would get together with these high school friends (he hasn't since having children, this was early in their marriage). He always told my sister upfront ahead of time and he always had his phone unlocked for my sister's eyes if she wanted to use his phone or check it. They've been together for 25 years because of the open communication and trust between them. Now, with this new female recruiter-cowker, you'd better believe my sister knows about her. I told my sister in front of my brother-in-law about how she hit on him. My sister rolled her eyes, but her husband knows if he goes along with anything this woman tries to start with him, divorce is the response. No marriage counseling. And that's just my sister's parameters. 

What are your wife's? What are yours? Whose respect and loyalty matter to you more? Your wife's or this recently divorced "looking for a shoulder (yours) to cry on" female friend? 

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On 11/12/2019 at 4:13 PM, Faithful1975 said:

So I am kind of wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this and what "rules" and/or "boundaries" do you think are reasonable. For example, is it okay to meet your friend once a month for coffee or go to an event related to a shared interest your spouse doesn't care about and/or can't attend as long as you are open with everything? Does the duration of the friendship make a difference?

All that matters is what your wife thinks. 

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6 hours ago, snowcones said:

All that matters is what your wife thinks. 

 

Agreed. And so far, the wife is not keen on Faithful1975 spending time with his long-time newly-divorced female friend. Yet Faithful1975 disagrees with her. This woman should not be a priority in his life. His wife should be. 

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On 12/11/2019 at 3:15 PM, Faithful1975 said:

Ultimately, I do get the concern in these situations but trust has to be part of any relationship and my experience is that people ultimately do what they want to do - you can't control anyone. I also think that the more controlling you are on your partner you are almost setting up a situation for deceptive behavior.  I tend have always taken the "loose grip" approach in any relationship I have had.

 

Ta da!  This is the angst/meaning of this thread.  The hyperbole around 'old' friends and umph controlling partners are a ruse to your intent from the get go. 

I have male friends (circa high school/college)  that the wife said no bueno and that was ok, seriously, they are my friends, the best thing is to respect their marriage. I'm a woman btw.

We are still friends.  When we all get together we are friends because I or he don't insist we have to be so. Get it?

While reading your thread, Faithful, I kept asking myself...why the thread, why the hoopla?  You are in an emotional affair already, the fact that this has created internal angst and external discord in your marriage is something you need to address.

 

You are willing to defend this friendship to a point of deception within your marriage.  Be honest with yourself.

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On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 7:36 PM, Faithful1975 said:

Thanks for these great responses, they are very helpful.

 

Where we are struggling a bit right now is that I have a female friend I have known for about twenty year and we actually started hanging out, just as friends, right around the same time my wife and I got together.

 

My wife knows her, and I know her husband, but I wouldn't call myself friends with him and my wife is not friends with her. Nothing negative here but its kind of like how none of my guy friends are really "friends" with my wife per se.

 

Where we have run into a bit of an issue lately is that my friend is partially separated from her husband (they are still married and live together but are not really "together" anymore). My friend and I have absolutely no romantic history and my wife essentially asked me to not hang out with her alone anymore even though I have explained to her that no boundaries have ever been crossed.

 

We only see each other about once a month a for coffee, and maybe a movie, but my wife has always been cool in the past with this and knows about it when we hang out. We do text sporadically and maybe talk once a week but this is the norm for my close guy friends as well.

 

At first I was cool with not seeing her but it's been like two months since we've hung out and I kind of miss her. Plus it seems like it would be a hell of lot more efficient to meet for coffee once a month then spend weeks playing phone tag and trying to have a conversation via text.

 

I love my wife, and respect her, but I feel like she is constraining me a bit as this woman is really the only close friend I have, outside of my wife, where we live. Am I being unreasonable or should I just have a conversation with my wife and tell her how I feel?

 

dude.. I gotta tell you.. you are on the early stages of emotionally, if not already, crossing a line.

 

1) just b/c you don't have a history of being romantic, is a fallacy. a rationale for what could happen, saying since it never happened before, it couldn't happen ever. it COULD.

2) you miss her. you shouldn't miss any woman who isn't your spouse, your family, your child, your pet, Korean BBQ, flaming Fahita! 

3) she's going thru some marital problems.. STAY AWAY... when someone faces a reality that isn't as fun or stressful or downright harsh... it's easy to lean into something that isn't reality... aka you.

4) why would your wife constrain you... constrain you from having a relationship with another woman, like going out to coffee, seeing a movie...  like a date?

5) you can have close friends....BUT if there's a closer friend than your wife and she's a woman, then you got another problem. 

 

the fact is... you're on the boundary where you're about to cross into an area that you don't want to go down... even flirt with... it is dangerous b/c I've been down that road... 

 

good luck to you and I hope you make wiser choices and not blind yourself to the obvious.

 

Also, a general rule... yes, boundaries even in marriage is important... but if your wife/spouse asks to see your phone... and you have something to hide... other than her b'day/Christmas gift... then YOURE doing something WRONG.

 

if a pastor, priest, your wife, your parents, your kids can't read the texts/email/communication you have with another woman... then you're doing something wrong. :)

 

don't lie to yourself. if you're not happy in your marriage. end it. be single. then do something else. But this is NOT the way you do it. You will hurt your wife, your marriage, any kids, your family, people around you... everyone you love... and especially... yourself.

Edited by 2BGoodAgain
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Maybe I'm missing something. All Faithful has said that he wants to do is have coffee with this friend once in awhile and catch up. What is wrong with that? He is not going to her house and talking for hours, nor is he going to an intimate restaurant or movie.

 

Faithful,

I would be curious to know why your wife is so scared of this particular friend. Be honest with yourself, now. Is she interested in you? Or does your wife not want you to hang out with any female friends?

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Pleasant-Sage

My personal feelings on this is you only have room for close relationships like that for your spouse, your mother/father and family. That's it.

 

Your spouse is supposed to be your best friend. No room for others as it tends to complicate or make things messy.

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Lots of strong opinions here, which I really appreciate as they have really given me a window into why my wife feels the way she does and they have forced me to analyze my friends intention. This past weekend a couple of things happened which I thought worth mentioning.

 

First, my friend and I attended an event this past weekend, which my wife attended with me, and my friend did something in front of my wife that put in me in a really awkward position. I wont give details about what happened but it involved some physical contact that while it may have been totally appropriate for the context my friend had never done  anything like this before..

 

I was  a bit surprised when my friend did this and I knew immediately my wife would want to "kill" her. Needless to say it has caused a lot of "discussions" in my home over the past few days. My friend actually texted me to apologize, after the incident,  saying that she hoped my wife was not upset, and that she meant nothing by it and she even offered to talk to my wife to which I was like "uh ....no". I wasn't really sure what to think about what happened because on the one hand I could see my friend doing it without thinking because the situation we were in  requires one to think on their feet.  But, on the other hand, it did feel a little like she did it to somewhat stake a claim in front of my wife. 

 

Secondly, I happen to inform my friend about a seminar I was attending this past Sunday morning that I thought she might be interested in. She told me one of her kids had a choir thing she thought she had to attend so I thought for sure she would not end up attending . But, much to my surprise, she texted me, right after "the incident" mentioned above to tell me she would be attending this seminar. The odd thing was that when she showed up she clearly had other  things she needed to do with her kids that day, so she kept checking her phone. While I was happy she was there it kind of seemed like quite a big headache for her to attend. 

 

But, if I am being honest, it is clear to me that there is something here - I'm just not sure what it is. We have communicated virtually every day since last Thursday but most of that has been via text and none of the communication has been inappropriate and some of it has been related to some common events we both were attending.  With all that said, however, I could see her not calling, or texting, me again until after the New Year. What I tend to notice is that if i call or text her it leads into days of communication so perhaps the move here is for me to do nothing for a while.

 

 

 

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Ugh, it looks like I need to eat crow now. It seems that the other posters were correct that your wife's radar was spot on, and this "friend" wants a piece of you. I think you would be wise to shelve this friendship, at least for now. Maybe if and when she gets over her divorce and finds a man of her own, it will be okay for you guys to hang out if your wife is okay with it.

 

I think you need to respect your wife and see that she was right. Your friend absolutely flirted with you in front of her, and that was disrespectful to both you and your wife. Also, you seem to be a little flattered by the attention, which will backfire on you if you don't nip this in the bud.

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5 hours ago, Faithful1975 said:

 

But, if I am being honest, it is clear to me that there is something here - I'm just not sure what it is.

 

So, to clarify, you feel attracted towards your female friend now? What do you mean you're not sure what "it" is. And why leave out what she did when it's quite obvious from what your post implied. She obviously either grabbed and kissed you (drunk or sober, does it matter) while you were out with your wife (or were you just with your female friend alone, gone to the same event as you had done with your wife). 

Your post is not straightforward. Perhaps that is a reflection of where your head is at. You are attracted to your female friend but don't know where this attraction will lead to...until the holidays are over and you can devote more time to pursuing the connection? 

 

What did you do after your friend staked her claim on you. Did you stop her drunken (assuming it was that) behavior and stick by your wife? Or did you reciprocate your friend's kiss in front of your wife (assuming that's what you won't divulge, and not sure why you won't since you came here for advice and feedback.) Withholding information isn't going to help you get the feedback you came here seeking. 

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5 hours ago, Faithful1975 said:

Secondly, I happen to inform my friend about a seminar I was attending this past Sunday morning that I thought she might be interested in.

 

Um, are you serious?! Your friend blatantly flirted with you in front of your wife which upset your wife (and flattered you). And instead of showing your wife any loyalty or respect, you instead insist on inviting this friend out again....so that you two can be alone. Right? Because as you wrote in your post, you sense something sparked between you and your recently divorced female friend and you probably want to see where it leads to. 

What do you want to happen. Do you want to have an affair with this woman? Do you want to divorce your wife? Seems like you need to decide what you want from these two women. 

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I have two "best" friends (aside from my wife, who is obviously #1): a guy and a girl. Both of them are single (the guy is divorced)

 

My wife knows the girl and they are friends. I follow certain policies in regards to this girl

 

1. I never go out with her alone, not even for coffee. We see in each other at small get-togethers, parties, events, etc. Sometimes a hike in the woods with other people

2. We text each other and post stuff on each other's FB pages. My wife knows my cellphone code and sees my posts. My cellphone sits on the desk at night--if she wanted too, she could go through all the messages

3. I never get physical with the girl--no long hugs, pinching, wrestling or playing around. Nada

 

That being said, there are things I can discuss with my two best friends that I cannot discuss with my wife. I'd like to discuss this stuff, but she doesn't want to hear it, tunes out, or criticizes me for bringing it up. My friends are artistic, passionate about things like music and literature, into ideology or philosophy, and have several hobbies. My wife is pragmatic, practical, easy-going, and disinterested in things that do not involve the kids, domestic matters, etc. If I tell her I am depressed or anxious, her reply is pretty much "toughen-up".

 

So my friends are there to fill in the gaps, provide emotional support if I need it (rare), and to give me advice. Emotional connection? Sure, but entirely Platonic.

 

 

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Wow! Lots of assumptions here.

 

The incident that took place did not involve alcohol or any type of flirtation. I didn’t specify exactly what it was because if I said the context it would pretty easy to identify who we are if someone we know happens to read this board.
 

All I can say is that it took place in an artistic context and if another woman had done the same thing my wife probably would not have cared. It was just unusual because my friend really never has gotten physical like this with me  before and the fact that she chose to do this when my wife was there was really odd. 

 

As to the Seminar, I had mentioned it to my friend weeks before and a couple of days before the above incident she had mentioned her conflicts so I assumed she wouldn’t  to be attending. 

 

As to being “flattered” by the attention. When the “incident” happened I was taken aback and I felt really awkward. I knew my wife would be ticked off regardless of my friends intentions.

 

 

 


 

 

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12 hours ago, Faithful1975 said:

Wow! Lots of assumptions here.

 

 

I understood exactly what you were saying. When you said "there seems to be something here", I believe you meant from your friend's perspective, not yours. I also suspected you had told your friend about the seminar before the "incident."

 

I think you are doing the right thing by not originating any communication with your friend. The important thing, as others have pointed out, is that you respect your wife's stance on this issue. She should be your number one priority. You do not need to "be there" for your friend throughout her divorce, as that could put you in a precarious situation with your own marriage. 

 

I believe your friend has already shown enough inappropriate behavior for you to end the friendship, thereby showing your wife that you choose her. It might be unfortunate, but better to end a friendship than to jeopardize a marriage.

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20 hours ago, fishlips said:

Ugh, it looks like I need to eat crow now. It seems that the other posters were correct that your wife's radar was spot on, and this "friend" wants a piece of you. I think you would be wise to shelve this friendship, at least for now. Maybe if and when she gets over her divorce and finds a man of her own, it will be okay for you guys to hang out if your wife is okay with it.

 

I think you need to respect your wife and see that she was right. Your friend absolutely flirted with you in front of her, and that was disrespectful to both you and your wife. Also, you seem to be a little flattered by the attention, which will backfire on you if you don't nip this in the bud.

 

on the bright side... you can admit when you're wrong or off base. no shame in it. Kudos to you.

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13 hours ago, Brennan72 said:

I have two "best" friends (aside from my wife, who is obviously #1): a guy and a girl. Both of them are single (the guy is divorced)

 

My wife knows the girl and they are friends. I follow certain policies in regards to this girl

 

1. I never go out with her alone, not even for coffee. We see in each other at small get-togethers, parties, events, etc. Sometimes a hike in the woods with other people

2. We text each other and post stuff on each other's FB pages. My wife knows my cellphone code and sees my posts. My cellphone sits on the desk at night--if she wanted too, she could go through all the messages

3. I never get physical with the girl--no long hugs, pinching, wrestling or playing around. Nada

 

That being said, there are things I can discuss with my two best friends that I cannot discuss with my wife. I'd like to discuss this stuff, but she doesn't want to hear it, tunes out, or criticizes me for bringing it up. My friends are artistic, passionate about things like music and literature, into ideology or philosophy, and have several hobbies. My wife is pragmatic, practical, easy-going, and disinterested in things that do not involve the kids, domestic matters, etc. If I tell her I am depressed or anxious, her reply is pretty much "toughen-up".

 

So my friends are there to fill in the gaps, provide emotional support if I need it (rare), and to give me advice. Emotional connection? Sure, but entirely Platonic.

 

 

 

the main difference is one is a girl and one is a guy.. 

 

and that main difference creates complexities and is reality, no matter the whole gender neutral political correctness we seem to be heading to... :)

 

the above is a good example of good boundaries.

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12 hours ago, Faithful1975 said:

Wow! Lots of assumptions here.

 

The incident that took place did not involve alcohol or any type of flirtation. I didn’t specify exactly what it was because if I said the context it would pretty easy to identify who we are if someone we know happens to read this board.
 

All I can say is that it took place in an artistic context and if another woman had done the same thing my wife probably would not have cared. It was just unusual because my friend really never has gotten physical like this with me  before and the fact that she chose to do this when my wife was there was really odd. 

 

As to the Seminar, I had mentioned it to my friend weeks before and a couple of days before the above incident she had mentioned her conflicts so I assumed she wouldn’t  to be attending. 

 

As to being “flattered” by the attention. When the “incident” happened I was taken aback and I felt really awkward. I knew my wife would be ticked off regardless of my friends intentions.

 

 

 


 

 

 

the point is... whether conscious or unconscious... the red flags are there, my friend.

 

time to withdraw and safeguard your relationship with your wife over your friend.

 

the real question is... what will you do?

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13 hours ago, Faithful1975 said:

As to being “flattered” by the attention. When the “incident” happened I was taken aback and I felt really awkward. I knew my wife would be ticked off regardless of my friends intentions.

I apologize if I misunderstood your feelings. However, this "friend" isn't much of a friend if she is willing to jeopardize your marriage for her own interests. She is clearly wanting more from you, and your wife knows. I don't really see any way forward except to cut her off, unless you want to piss off your wife.

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