Are close friends of the gender you are attracted to okay when you're married?

[Brennan72]

14 hours ago, Faithful1975 said:

Wow! Lots of assumptions here.

 

The incident that took place did not involve alcohol or any type of flirtation. I didn’t specify exactly what it was because if I said the context it would pretty easy to identify who we are if someone we know happens to read this board.
 

All I can say is that it took place in an artistic context and if another woman had done the same thing my wife probably would not have cared. It was just unusual because my friend really never has gotten physical like this with me  before and the fact that she chose to do this when my wife was there was really odd. 

 

As to the Seminar, I had mentioned it to my friend weeks before and a couple of days before the above incident she had mentioned her conflicts so I assumed she wouldn’t  to be attending. 

 

As to being “flattered” by the attention. When the “incident” happened I was taken aback and I felt really awkward. I knew my wife would be ticked off regardless of my friends intentions.

“Nobody even imagines how well one can lie about the state of one’s own heart.”
― Yukio Mishima, Thirst for Love

 

14 hours ago, Faithful1975 said:

 

 

 

 

 

[2BGoodAgain]

On 11/15/2019 at 1:21 PM, pepperbird said:

The only advice I can give is that, if you feel maintaining your friendship is a "must", proceed with caution.

 

It's a shoulder to cry on to become something more. Let's say you meet your friend (call her "A") and A starts talking about her ex and the separation. She becomes emotional, starts to cry and looks like she is in desperate need of some physical comforting ( I don't mean anything sexual).

 

What will you do? Do you give her a hug, or do you back off? What are your boundaries? Where is the line in the sand? What if she says she can't talk in a public place and wants to go somewhere more private? What will you say?

 

 

 

These are questions you may want to really consider. What are your boundaries and how will you enforce them?

 

this guy has POOR boundaries. 

this guy is in denial of his own actions, even after the OW tried to make a "claim" on him infront of his wife... his own words...

this guy isn't looking for the truth. 

This guy is looking for validation for his delusions. 

 

everyone has been telling him the same thing and he keeps making excuses and keeps endangering his relationship with his wife for his "friend".

 

this is where i roll my eyes.. you can't help stupid.

[Faithful1975]

Thanks again for the responses!

 

I have no plans to formally "end" my friendship but I definitely will be taking a step back and not initiating any communication for awhile - the holidays provide an excellent opportunity to do this.

 

And I think what makes this "tough" is that I don't know that my friend is intentionally trying to jeopardize my marriage or that she even understands her own feelings. She is not a malicious person on any level and is a pretty big introvert even though her looks probably have a tendency to make people think otherwise. I think part of what caused her behavior of the other night may have been a bit of "nerves" because of the context we were in and possibly a subconscious  desire to make some kind of statement in front of my wife but I have no way of knowing that.

 

I have no doubt that she values my friendship and we do discuss most of the same interests we have always shared that neither of our spouses have really had an interest in which is largely the foundation of our friendship. It's just that the frequency of this communication has gone up quite a bit and I do think she likes having me a bit more available to her. 

[Faithful1975]

2BGoodAgain you don't know me and if you want to be taken seriously I would suggest not lacing your comments with insults and condescension, which we know is easy to do on an anonymous message board. 

[Watercolors]

1 hour ago, Faithful1975 said:

Thanks again for the responses!

 

I have no plans to formally "end" my friendship but I definitely will be taking a step back and not initiating any communication for awhile - the holidays provide an excellent opportunity to do this.

 

And I think what makes this "tough" is that I don't know that my friend is intentionally trying to jeopardize my marriage or that she even understands her own feelings. She is not a malicious person on any level and is a pretty big introvert even though her looks probably have a tendency to make people think otherwise. I think part of what caused her behavior of the other night may have been a bit of "nerves" because of the context we were in and possibly a subconscious  desire to make some kind of statement in front of my wife but I have no way of knowing that.

 

I have no doubt that she values my friendship and we do discuss most of the same interests we have always shared that neither of our spouses have really had an interest in which is largely the foundation of our friendship. It's just that the frequency of this communication has gone up quite a bit and I do think she likes having me a bit more available to her. 

 

It's quite telling that you won't divulge what your friend did that you previously described in this thread as trying to lay her claim on you, in front of your wife.  You use the excuse "in case anyone I know reads this forum" but that's just an easy deflection from the truth. Not sure why you created this thread if you aren't willing to listen to what other people have to say. 

Are you attracted to your friend or not? What do you want from this woman as her friend? Do you respect your wife? Do you prioritize your wife over this female friend? 

 

[fishlips]

You may not contact her, but you know she will contact you. So what will you do then?

 

If she was really your friend, she would leave you and your wife alone, but do you really think she will?

[Faithful1975]

Watercolors I have to say that you are coming at me in a pretty antagonistic way and I am not really clear why.

 

As I said above, the reason I don't want to share what she did just to remain anonymous - there is no effort on my part to deceive.

 

As I said, however,  if another woman had done the same thing it would not have meant a thing. My wife might have given me crap about it but what set this apart was the fact that it was my friend who did it and the fact she did it with my wife present.  Again, I can never know what was in my friend's mind and I certainly am not going to have a confrontation about because I am quite certain she will deny that it meant anything.

 

And she is my friend so the only thing I "want" from her is friendship. If we were both single and everything was different who knows what would happen but I am sure that can be said for a lot of "platonic" friendships. The fact is that I am happily married and she is still technically married and living with her husband - she is not a single woman living on her own. But none of this is relevant at this point because I am completely disengaging on my end.

 

Fishlips,  if she contacts me I will treat her like I treat my other friends and respond when I get around to responding. But with the holidays upon us, regardless of her situation, I am quite sure she has a lot of stuff she has to do like most people with a family. 

[Watercolors]

54 minutes ago, Faithful1975 said:

Watercolors I have to say that you are coming at me in a pretty antagonistic way and I am not really clear why.

 

It's not my intention to antagonize you, but to find out why you need our feedback if you won't divulge what's really going on. If anything, I'm a little frustrated with the way you weave and bob and deflect with what you post and how you respond. Like, in one post you state that if you and your friend were single, who knows what would happen between you two. Then, you say she did something to you in front of your wife, that could be interpreted as laying a claim on you, that prompted a lot of discussion afterward with your wife. Yet you won't say what she did. So, it's hard to know what you really want from a public forum when you flip flop about your feelings for your female friend, and won't elaborate important details of your story that would make it clear what is happening here. 

[mark clemson]

I think, like most folks with questions, he wants advice on his own terms. Certainly it's true we can give better answers with more information, but some folks are more willing to re-adjust their "terms" than others. That's just how it is.

 

OP, possibly you could invent a parallel situation to the one where the friend "laid claim to you" or whatever it was without providing "dead giveaway" information?

[Timshel]

Faithful,  divorce your wife and get on with your relationship with the newly divorced (not a monkey brancher) OW.

This situation is played, nice try though.

Lucks

[Brennan72]

4 hours ago, Faithful1975 said:

Watercolors I have to say that you are coming at me in a pretty antagonistic way and I am not really clear why.

 

As I said above, the reason I don't want to share what she did just to remain anonymous - there is no effort on my part to deceive.

 

As I said, however,  if another woman had done the same thing it would not have meant a thing. My wife might have given me crap about it but what set this apart was the fact that it was my friend who did it and the fact she did it with my wife present.  Again, I can never know what was in my friend's mind and I certainly am not going to have a confrontation about because I am quite certain she will deny that it meant anything.

 

And she is my friend so the only thing I "want" from her is friendship. If we were both single and everything was different who knows what would happen but I am sure that can be said for a lot of "platonic" friendships. The fact is that I am happily married and she is still technically married and living with her husband - she is not a single woman living on her own. But none of this is relevant at this point because I am completely disengaging on my end.

 

Fishlips,  if she contacts me I will treat her like I treat my other friends and respond when I get around to responding. But with the holidays upon us, regardless of her situation, I am quite sure she has a lot of stuff she has to do like most people with a family. 

 

I think you need to look at this rationally: your friend is separated, in her late 30s (at least) and very motivated to find a replacement for her husband

 

Even if she has feelings for you, those feelings are in bad faith and with bad intentions. This whole thing has a stink to it, and that is what the people here are telling you.

 

You imagine this woman as some deep friend who "gets you", when in reality, she sounds like an opportunistic woman on the rebound, looking for a provider.

 

 

[Pleasant-Sage]

I don't understand why people risk their marriages for such frivolous things of this nature. Lack of foresight I guess? 

 

Until you've been there before, I guess it's also hard to see how damaging such things are to a marriage. Perhaps it's another example of cognitive dissonance?

 

 

[Pleasant-Sage]

If your wife gave you an ultimatum....her or this friend...What would you do?

 

That would not be smart on her part. If you chose her, she would run the risk of you becoming resentful towards her. I'm just curious as to what you would do if put in that position.

[pepperbird]

op,

I don't think you understand women all that well if you think this is just your friend being "platonic".

 

Look at it logically. She's separated, likely hurting and her ego could well be in tatters. Pretty much everyone has been there at one point or another. Someone in that position may well be doing a bit of "looking", both to fill in a void and boost her self esteem. What better way to do that than to get "happily married man" to look her way?
I'm not saying she's even aware she's doing this. I wouldn't "ghost he rover the holidays, rather, I would be upfront about her actions in front of your wife, tell er they were NOT appreciated and let her know, in no uncertain terms, that you are interested in friendship only. I know that may sound mean, but it's a heck of a lot kinder than letting her go on thinking there could be a spark there when there's not.

 

[Els]

It really depends on how "close" you mean. I don't make plans to go out 1-on-1 with a male friend without inviting my husband. Obviously, group outings and stuff like having coffee together at work are fine. But I would never, for instance, arrange to go to a concert or a nice dinner with just one male friend.

[Watercolors]

13 hours ago, Brennan72 said:

  17 hours ago, Faithful1975 said:

Watercolors I have to say that you are coming at me in a pretty antagonistic way and I am not really clear why.

 

As I said above, the reason I don't want to share what she did just to remain anonymous - there is no effort on my part to deceive.

 

As I said, however,  if another woman had done the same thing it would not have meant a thing. My wife might have given me crap about it but what set this apart was the fact that it was my friend who did it and the fact she did it with my wife present.  Again, I can never know what was in my friend's mind and I certainly am not going to have a confrontation about because I am quite certain she will deny that it meant anything.

 

And she is my friend so the only thing I "want" from her is friendship. If we were both single and everything was different who knows what would happen but I am sure that can be said for a lot of "platonic" friendships. The fact is that I am happily married and she is still technically married and living with her husband - she is not a single woman living on her own. But none of this is relevant at this point because I am completely disengaging on my end.

 

Fishlips,  if she contacts me I will treat her like I treat my other friends and respond when I get around to responding. But with the holidays upon us, regardless of her situation, I am quite sure she has a lot of stuff she has to do like most people with a family. 

 

34 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

op,

I don't think you understand women all that well if you think this is just your friend being "platonic".

 

Look at it logically. She's separated, likely hurting and her ego could well be in tatters. Pretty much everyone has been there at one point or another. Someone in that position may well be doing a bit of "looking", both to fill in a void and boost her self esteem. What better way to do that than to get "happily married man" to look her way?

I'm not saying she's even aware she's doing this. I wouldn't "ghost he rover the holidays, rather, I would be upfront about her actions in front of your wife, tell er they were NOT appreciated and let her know, in no uncertain terms, that you are interested in friendship only. I know that may sound mean, but it's a heck of a lot kinder than letting her go on thinking there could be a spark there when there's not.

 

I like your advice pepperbird. But Faithful1975 already stated (see bold above) that he doesn't plan to confront his separated female friend. 

 

I don't understand how Faithful1975 can be "happily married" and seem so indifferent about the way his female friend acted that laid claim to him, in front of his wife. 

Because, his posts have a tone of total indifference. There's no emotion in any of his posts. He doesn't even talk about his wife's feelings at all. That concerns me. He doesn't seem to care about how this has impacted his marriage because he hasn't written about any internal struggle this female friend's come-on at some artistic event, has affected him emotionally at all. Just cold responses here. His statement that he is happily married -- for me personally -- is hard to believe. 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Watercolors

[2BGoodAgain]

2 minutes ago, Watercolors said:

 

I like your advice pepperbird. But Faithful1975 already stated (see bold above) that he doesn't plan to confront his separated female friend. 

 

I don't understand how Faithful1975 can be "happily married" and seem so indifferent about the way his female friend acted that laid claim to him, in front of his wife. 

Because, his posts have a tone of total indifference. There's no emotion in any of his posts. He doesn't even talk about his wife's feelings at all. That concerns me. He doesn't seem to care about how this has impacted his marriage because he hasn't written about any internal struggle this female friend's come-on at some artistic event, has affected him emotionally at all. Just cold responses here. His statement that he is happily married -- for me personally -- is hard to believe. 

 

 

that's b/c faithful isn't faithful.... he's looking for justification for his delusion that his "friendship" is just friendship when it's obvious to everyone his actions show he thinks more of his friend than his wife.

 

period.

[vla1120]

21 hours ago, Faithful1975 said:

Thanks again for the responses!

 

1 - I have no plans to formally "end" my friendship but I definitely will be taking a step back and not initiating any communication for awhile - the holidays provide an excellent opportunity to do this.

 

And I think what makes this "tough" is that I don't know that my friend is intentionally trying to jeopardize my marriage or that she even understands her own feelings. 2 -She is not a malicious person on any level and is a pretty big introvert even though her looks probably have a tendency to make people think otherwise. I think part of what caused her behavior of the other night may have been a bit of "nerves" because of the context we were in and possibly a subconscious  desire to make some kind of statement in front of my wife but I have no way of knowing that.

 

I have no doubt that she values my friendship and we do discuss most of the same interests we have always shared that neither of our spouses have really had an interest in which is largely the foundation of our friendship. It's just that the frequency of this communication has gone up quite a bit and 3 -I do think she likes having me a bit more available to her. 

1. While I understand why you have no plans to "formally end" your relationship, if I were you, I would hold off on that decision until you have more information in the coming weeks (based on how your friend corresponds with you.)

 

2. The fact that you have to point out that "her looks ... have a tendency to make people think otherwise" raised a little red flag for me. You are acknowledging that she is attractive (meaning you are attracted to her.)  I've never had the inclination to point out the attractiveness of any of my friends, male or female. 

 

3. If I were your wife, I'd be annoyed that your female friend, whom you find attractive and who recently crossed the line with you in front of your wife, "likes having you a bit more available to her."

 

Tread carefully.

[BettyDraper]

OP, it’s obvious that your “friend” has no regard for your marriage or else she wouldn’t have tried to “claim” you in front of your wife. Your wife is picking up on the mutual attraction between you and your friend. 

 

It appears that you don’t respect your wife or your marriage. If you did, you would have ended this “friendship” already. I think you like the ego boost of having an attractive female friend who wants more and a wife who is rightfully upset by your interactions with another woman. 
 

 

[Atwood]

I find it pretty surprising how easily you admit that if you were single, you’d probably be dating. I don’t suppose you’ve mentioned this to your wife? Regardless, this is the vibe she’s going to be picking up. Chemistry between people can be incredibly obvious, and your wife is going to be especially in tune with which women your chemistry fires up. She’ll also be highly aware of all your flirty behaviour and how you act around attractive women, because you’ve tried it all on her. 
 

You might like having an attractive woman as a friend to stroke your ego now and then, but it’s inappropriate. If my boyfriend had a friend that I knew the only reason they weren’t dating was because of me, I’d be very uncomfortable. 
 

My own rule with my male friends, which I’ve told my partner about, is that I don’t have male friends that I’m attracted to. If I’m attracted to a man, I interact with him only when necessary or when appropriate. 
My close male friends are people who if I were single, I would not date. 

[PinkFlamingo]

On 11/14/2019 at 1:22 AM, Faithful1975 said:

These are some really well thought out, and colorful, comments so thank you.I guess I was hoping for different answers but I should be clear that I understand that the fact my friend is separated has definitely had a major impact on my wife's feelings and I am not saying she is wrong to have those feelings.

 

With that said, however, I don't feel like I should have to give up my friendship or be relegated to playing phone, and text, tag with her for the rest of my life or until she meets someone else. If anything I think it is more of thorn in my wife's side to see the texts and phone calls, which she is free to look at. I just want to be able to grab coffee with her, during the day, with my wife's permission like once a month, or less, to catch up like I would with any friend.

I find listening to phone calls and reading texts to be really intrusive. It's also the privacy of your friend that you would need to reconsider. She thinks what she's telling you is safe, maybe it's personal stuff that she doesn't want to tell the whole world, and then your wife snoops around. Very uncool.

I know various men who have female friends, even married one, and the wife doesn't mind. That's called trust. But I do admit, it also depends on the men you're dealing with. Some men have trouble with maintaining boundaries, be it because they have trouble saying no or be because they are not the faithful kind of men. I know guys who start talking about their relationship problems and I feel uncomfortable, because my instinct tells me, this is not just an open talk about one's relationship, they're more or less wanting to let me know that their relationship is broken and they're just waiting for another potential partner to jump in and give them a reason to break it off. Others really do want to talk and maybe get another perspective.

And once a month should not be a problem. I admit, I might have problems if I had a partner who had an attractive female best friend with whom he spent a lot of time on a regular basis, but coffee once a month? She should be more realistic here. I don't assume you look like George Clooney, with a long line of women just wanting to get any opportunity to make you their own, right?

If that was also a friendship that existed before marriage, she should do even more to respect it unless there is very good reason to be suspicious. If you want to take away something that your partner enjoys and has enjoyed before he met you, you should have very, very good reasons to do so.

Edited December 28, 2019 by PinkFlamingo

[PinkFlamingo]

On 12/11/2019 at 10:04 PM, Watercolors said:

Faithful1975 all I read are convenient excuses that you're making to justify the emotional affair that's most likely going to lead to a physical one with your long-time, recently divorced, female friend. And yes, it is an emotional affair since your female friend technically could go cry on the shoulder of her girlfriends, or better yet, a marriage and family therapist, or women in a divorce support group. 

You are not respecting your wife's feelings AT ALL here. You are totally dismissing her feelings by going behind her back to text this female friend. I don't believe that you will disclose any texting, emailing, instant messaging or "coffee meetups" with this woman to your wife. Why do I think that? The way you responded with this statement: 
 

 

Reasonable boundaries do not involve going behind your wife's back, which you will have to do, because your wife does not want you to be this woman's emotional crutch (and rightly so, b/c she knows this woman will seek more than emotional support from you eventually -- most emotional affairs turn into physical ones, just read the stories in the cheating forum). 

Can you honestly admit that you will NOT go behind your wife's back? What if your wife wants to look at your cellphone text messages. Will you let her or will you protect your text message exchanges by accusing your wife of snooping and being jealous? A solid marriage means ALL devices are transparent. Yes, boundaries need to be in place but as her husband, you should have nothing to hide from your wife and if you deny her the right to your phone or computer that's reason to distrust you. Will you really tell your wife, "Hey, I'm going to [her] house for lunch or we're going out for coffee..." and not expect your wife to be a little suspicious? 

My brother-in-law has female friends that he's known since high school. Yet, he has NEVER gone behind my sister's back about when he would get together with these high school friends (he hasn't since having children, this was early in their marriage). He always told my sister upfront ahead of time and he always had his phone unlocked for my sister's eyes if she wanted to use his phone or check it. They've been together for 25 years because of the open communication and trust between them. Now, with this new female recruiter-cowker, you'd better believe my sister knows about her. I told my sister in front of my brother-in-law about how she hit on him. My sister rolled her eyes, but her husband knows if he goes along with anything this woman tries to start with him, divorce is the response. No marriage counseling. And that's just my sister's parameters. 

What are your wife's? What are yours? Whose respect and loyalty matter to you more? Your wife's or this recently divorced "looking for a shoulder (yours) to cry on" female friend? 

I find reading other people's messages to be extremely rude and intrusive. These are regular people who are friends with someone, maybe confide something personal to them and trusting them to keep in confidential, and then those friends allow their wife to snoop around? Everybody is looking at it from the perspective of the husband and his wife, what about his friends and their right to privacy? Does marriage really mean becoming a person with no right to privacy? Who would want something that is so full of distrust? Who would demand this kind of "transparency" from their kids? Always asking for proof that you are an honest person?

Also, if you brother-in-law would have wanted to stray, he could just get a separate phone. It really depends on the person whether they do sneaky stuff or not.

[PinkFlamingo]

On 12/14/2019 at 11:37 PM, Pleasant-Sage said:

My personal feelings on this is you only have room for close relationships like that for your spouse, your mother/father and family. That's it.

 

Your spouse is supposed to be your best friend. No room for others as it tends to complicate or make things messy.

I have close male friends and I wouldn't give them up should I ever get married. And I'm so totally not into them. If I were, we were either together or I would have reduced contact.

[elaine567]

Trust existed here for years, his wife was very trusting, more trusting than most I may say, regarding this "friend".
That is UNTIL the "friend" became single and was then seen as a serious threat to her marriage.
Newly single people can cause havoc in married communities...
Faithful's wife doesn't want her husband to be seen in coffee shops, bars and movie theatres with a single woman, nor does she I guess want him seen visiting her at home. 
It is humiliating for her  to have her husband out entertaining a single woman... She is fighting for her marriage here.
Fine when the "friend" was just " Fred's wife", now the "friend" is no doubt a loose cannon determined to snare herself a lovely man. (I think the "incident" proved this. She was staking her claim on Faithful.)
Faithful knows all this and is determined not to lose his emotional affair partner.

[Brennan72]

Just last night I had to put some barriers in place and create some distance between me and a single women.

Found myself getting too involved in her drama and personal life, which is never good for a married guy. Also found myself "idealizing" her a bit, or at the very least, overlooking a lot of her bad qualities. I then came to my senses over the last couple of weeks and concluded that

1. While we were friends, she was getting a benefit from having me around: access to high quality men (in theory), and a liaison, or a guy who could talk her up and make her look good.

2. She was divulging too much of her personal and sexual history to me (without being asked). Thinking about that stuff after the fact is not a good thing--I should be thinking about my own sex life with my wife, not some girl's. 

3. Being around her made me feel younger, and I like the attention. I need to devote myself to other things, as that is a recipe for a mid-life crisis (or worse)

4. She started being a bit dismissive and blowing me off as of late, which normally wouldn't bother me (friends do this), but it REALLY bothered me when she did it. Again, not a good situation

So no more texting this girl, no more FB conversations, and minimal contact (we never really went out alone anyway, but still ...). I will see her at a couple events this year maybe, and that will be it. I have a wife at home, and I'm happily married. I don't need this

Married people with young, single friends of the opposite sex is a recipe for disaster and should be avoided. I am the most disciplined guy out there when it comes to my marriage, and even I found myself "slipping" a bit. It's just not good policy 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Brennan72