All out of ideas...

[Thelambofdeth]

13 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Thank you for your honest response.  OK... now we are getting somewhere.

 

This is an unjustified fear.  There are justified fears (where humans should be afraid and our fight or flight reaction becomes instinct), but being afraid to talk to an attractive woman in a social situation is an unjustified fear.  And what you do to unjustified fears is you take its power away.  You take baby steps to beat that fear by conditioning yourself to push the envelope a little at a time.

 

Let's say you try to talk to a woman and she doesn't want to talk to you.  In my 38 years of dating, I've found 99% of women are polite and decline with a "No, thank you" or "I already have a boyfriend" or something along those lines.  I can only think of a handful of times where the woman was rude.  And you know the old saying about "Sticks and stones will break your bones, but names will never hurt you".  So the absolute worst case scenario is a woman calls me a jerk or a**hole and I turn and leave.  I've cold approached many, many women and I can count on one hand the number who were rude. 

 

So how do we inch closer to beating your unjustified fear... You say you go to bars with your friends, are they sports bars or dance bars, can you give me some more information about the places you frequent, then we can attempt to develop a strategy to take the fear away (in baby steps) from this unjustified fear.

We usually go to the same few bars. One is a wine bar, the other an alternative wine bar. Both in the same area. Kind of a puesdo-artsy district.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Thelambofdeth

[Happy Lemming]

10 minutes ago, Thelambofdeth said:

We usually go to the same few bars. One is a wine bar, the other an alternative wine bar. Both in the same area. Kind of a puesdo-artsy district.

My experience with wine bars is very limited, so I'm not going to be of much help. But... is there something generic you can ask about the wine (an attractive/potential woman) is drinking??  Do local artists display their work at these wine bars??  If so, can you comment on any of the pieces (on the walls)??  Can you ask (a woman) about any of the local or "underground" art galleries??  Are you into art??  Is that something you are knowledgeable about and can discuss??

 

I'm really out of my league when it comes to art and wine bars...  Now Sports bars, I've got a 100 opening lines, questions, comments, etc.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Happy Lemming

[Thelambofdeth]

24 minutes ago, CAPSLOCK BANDIT said:

 

My assumptions of you are based on reality: The reality of your situation is either you are not getting the help you need, you are creating excuses so you don't push yourself and remain in your comfort zone, or a combination of both.

 

I'm not going to go back and fourth with you on the incel community, if you want to call yourself an incel, go ahead.

 

If you have low-self esteem, you need to go to therapy and work through it... You don't just say "I have low self-esteem" and then settle on having low self-esteem, you attempt to resolve it as best as you can, rather than settling on comfort.

 

Overall, most of your responses in this thread shine a light on the fact that you are very comfortable in this place you find yourself in and that is your first problem... You call yourself an incel, tell yourself you have low self-esteem, tell yourself you have social anxiety, yet what are you actively doing about any of this? Posting on a forum? You need to step outside of this comfy identity you have built for yourself and find something more meaningful to identify with... Of course none of us can know your real situation and have to make assumptions about you, but I think the assumptions you make about yourself are the biggest problem here.

 

Dude I'm not trying to illegitimize your advice. It's clearly sound. I'm just being realistic given how much I know *my* situation. I wish I was able to take that next step. But, alas...

[Thelambofdeth]

25 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

My experience with wine bars is very limited, so I'm not going to be of much help. But... is there something generic you can ask about the wine (an attractive/potential woman) is drinking??  Do local artists display their work at these wine bars??  If so, can you comment on any of the pieces (on the walls)??  Can you ask (a woman) about any of the local or "underground" art galleries??  Are you into art??  Is that something you are knowledgeable about and can discuss??

 

I'm really out of my league when it comes to art and wine bars...  Now Sports bars, I've got a 100 opening lines, questions, comments, etc.

 

Yes, I could ask about the wine, and there are a few local paintings there(though he would be a heavy stretch to assume most of the people there are into art), there are local bands that play there on Friday, and I'm personally into art. But it just seems a little, idk tacky? To just interrupt a random woman there drinking with her friend or whatever to ask her about the contents of said drink. I just feel like I'd be interrupting.

 

Let me be clear, I'm not saying that approach is weird or implausible. Not at all. I know people do similar things all the time. I see people do it. Just eh...idk.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Thelambofdeth

[Happy Lemming]

4 minutes ago, Thelambofdeth said:

 To just interrupt a random woman there drinking with her friend or whatever to ask her about the contents of said drink. I just feel like I'd be interrupting.

Why do you think women go to bars, to meet guys... Maybe not 100% of the time, but in general they are there to attempt to meet guys.  It is your job to figure out how to "break the ice" with a comment or question, if she is interested she will attempt to keep the conversation going. 

 

If you are into art, then go with that thread...

 

Many years ago, I was at an "underground" art gallery (I went with a friend because he wanted to go and needed a ride).  While I was there I was looking at a painting and asked the woman beside me to help me interpret it, as the title didn't seem to match what was going on.  (And I don't completely understand abstract art...) Anyhow, that question was the "ice breaker" and she was apparently interested because she talked my ear off and we exchanged phone numbers.  I thought about asking her to go have a drink across the street at this bar, but I didn't want to abandon my friend that I had driven to this gallery.  In the end, we dated for a while...  She was a fun individual.

[Thelambofdeth]

17 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Why do you think women go to bars, to meet guys... Maybe not 100% of the time, but in general they are there to attempt to meet guys.  It is your job to figure out how to "break the ice" with a comment or question, if she is interested she will attempt to keep the conversation going. 

 

If you are into art, then go with that thread...

 

Many years ago, I was at an "underground" art gallery (I went with a friend because he wanted to go and needed a ride).  While I was there I was looking at a painting and asked the woman beside me to help me interpret it, as the title didn't seem to match what was going on.  (And I don't completely understand abstract art...) Anyhow, that question was the "ice breaker" and she was apparently interested because she talked my ear off and we exchanged phone numbers.  I thought about asking her to go have a drink across the street at this bar, but I didn't want to abandon my friend that I had driven to this gallery.  In the end, we dated for a while...  She was a fun individual.

 

Sure, guys that look like Henry Cavil.

 

I hear about people having interactions that lead to something. Often. Just through random conversations and whatnot. I've seen happen to friends. Just through happenstance. But instances like that don't really happen to me. Spontaneous connections and the sort. I have a resting-bvtch face and a inadvertent distant demeanor. I'm not exactly the template for random initiation...

Edited December 10, 2019 by Thelambofdeth

[Happy Lemming]

1 minute ago, Thelambofdeth said:

Sure, guys that look like Henry Cavil.

 

But instances like that don't really happen to me.

I'm no Henry Cavil, trust me...

 

You have to make those instances happen for you.  You have to take the lead... a woman is expecting you to do that.

 

I met my present girlfriend at an apartment complex pool (I was temporarily living at).  I swam up to her, made a comment about the something that happened at the complex, chit chatted a bit, she kept the conversation going, so I asked her out for drinks later that night. 

 

See what I did there... I made my own luck.  I made that instance happen for me.  And you can do the same!!

[basil67]

30 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Why do you think women go to bars, to meet guys... Maybe not 100% of the time, but in general they are there to attempt to meet guys. 

 

Actually, Thelambofdeth is correct.  If women are at a bar with a friend, then they are most likely on a girls night out and the guy who interrupts their closed conversation is probably giving unwanted attention to them.   There are plenty of wine bars around me and they are primarily for socialising with friends....not for getting hit on.    

 

 

[Thelambofdeth]

11 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

I'm no Henry Cavil, trust me...

 

You have to make those instances happen for you.  You have to take the lead... a woman is expecting you to do that.

 

I met my present girlfriend at an apartment complex pool (I was temporarily living at).  I swam up to her, made a comment about the something that happened at the complex, chit chatted a bit, she kept the conversation going, so I asked her out for drinks later that night. 

 

See what I did there... I made my own luck.  I made that instance happen for me.  And you can do the same!!

If I had three wishes, one of them would literally be the ability to do something akin to that...

[Happy Lemming]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

 

 There are plenty of wine bars around me and they are primarily for socialising with friends.

 

You may be right about wine bars, I have very little experience with them and have only been to a handful.  I did mention that to the OP to qualify same.

 

Although other bars/pubs/etc. the women are there to meet men, I know this to be fact... from personal experience.

[basil67]

21 minutes ago, Thelambofdeth said:

I hear about people having interactions that lead to something. Often. Just through random conversations and whatnot. I've seen happen to friends. Just through happenstance. But instances like that don't really happen to me. Spontaneous connections and the sort. I have a resting-bvtch face and a inadvertent distant demeanor. I'm not exactly the template for random initiation...

The Happy Lemming is right about making those situations happen.  And what HL did right here was to not use a pickup line or immediately ask her out - instead he made conversation and built a rapport before asking her for a drink.   Now your resting unfriendly face is only unfriendly when it's resting.  But when you're animated and smiling, talking to someone, then it ceases to be unfriendly.   So you can't blame the face..   However, your distant demeanor is certainly a problem.  What's going on there?

 

Also, if your face is unfriendly when resting, make sure to only use animated face photos on OLD.  

1 minute ago, Happy Lemming said:

Although other bars/pubs/etc. the women are there to meet men, I know this to be fact... from personal experience.

 

Haha, you must go to very different bars and pubs to me and my friends.   People who are married or have partners also go to bars and pubs here.  It's certainly not a singles only scene.

[Happy Lemming]

4 minutes ago, Thelambofdeth said:

If I had three wishes, one of them would literally be the ability to do something akin to that...

Its not magic... just basic conversation skills.  If I'm going into a situation where I don't know what I'm talking about, I will do a little research ahead of time.  I'll also have some "canned" questions/comments ready ahead of time (to break the ice).

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Haha, you must go to very different bars and pubs to me and my friends.   People who are married or have partners also go to bars and pubs here.  It's certainly not a singles only scene.

Probably (different bars/pubs)... but I always checked for a wedding band.  If she was wearing one, I steered clear.  If the woman had a boyfriend, she would let me know and I would back off.  Again, as I told the OP,  99% of women are polite when they reject you.

[basil67]

Yes, it's basic conversation skills.  It's no different to when you're at a friend's birthday and you introduce yourself to people at the party who you've never met.    And another option than HL's suggestion of a bit of research is to be able to BS a bit..... or if you really know nothing,  say "oh, tell me more"

 

Also, why can't you speak to a women you find attractive?   How do you manage at work if you can't speak to an attractive colleague?

[Thelambofdeth]

15 minutes ago, basil67 said:

The Happy Lemming is right about making those situations happen.  And what HL did right here was to not use a pickup line or immediately ask her out - instead he made conversation and built a rapport before asking her for a drink.   Now your resting unfriendly face is only unfriendly when it's resting.  But when you're animated and smiling, talking to someone, then it ceases to be unfriendly.   So you can't blame the face..   However, your distant demeanor is certainly a problem.  What's going on there?

 

Also, if your face is unfriendly when resting, make sure to only use animated face photos on OLD.  

I'm introverted. So apparently I come off a detached, haughty, judgmental, rigid, etc because I'm quiet and indifferent in most social settings. It takes time for me to warm up to people I'm unfamiliar with, and my disposition reflects that.

 

And lol all my old pictures capture the same expression. I'm not exactly "photogenic".

 

9 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Yes, it's basic conversation skills.  It's no different to when you're at a friend's birthday and you introduce yourself to people at the party who you've never met.    And another option than HL's suggestion of a bit of research is to be able to BS a bit..... or if you really know nothing,  say "oh, tell me more"

 

Also, why can't you speak to a women you find attractive?   How do you manage at work if you can't speak to an attractive colleague?

 

Work is different. It's a professional setting, so I act accordingly. Strictly so. I know all interactions are professional so there's. No pressure. I do have that much social awareness.

19 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Its not magic... just basic conversation skills.  If I'm going into a situation where I don't know what I'm talking about, I will do a little research ahead of time.  I'll also have some "canned" questions/comments ready ahead of time (to break the ice).

Probably (different bars/pubs)... but I always checked for a wedding band.  If she was wearing one, I steered clear.  If the woman had a boyfriend, she would let me know and I would back off.  Again, as I told the OP,  99% of women are polite when they reject you.

For someone in my position it might as well be another language. And my problem isn't necessarily continuing a conversation. In the instances I'm forced to talk, I can carry a conversation. I'm overly-analytical and store ton of useless information, and I can "act" the part if need be. I'm also an exceptional, genuine lister so I'm apt at steering thing in that direction if a conversation loses steam. My many issue is just garnering opportunities in which any of this can be utilized.

 

But even if they politely decline you, it's a rejection nonetheless. And with low self-esteem, that's what I'll dwell on...

[Happy Lemming]

1 minute ago, Thelambofdeth said:

I'm introverted.

That is something you can change or at least "fake" and pretend to be extroverted.

 

Again, it is just taking small "baby steps" to beat that unjustified fear and take its power away.

 

OK, how about by the end of the week you make the attempt to talk to 3 women in a social environment.  You don't have to ask them out, just a comment or question.  What do you think??

7 minutes ago, Thelambofdeth said:

But even if they politely decline you, it's a rejection nonetheless. And with low self-esteem, that's what I'll dwell on...

Well, you do have to have "thick skin"... If you are going to go off and cry each time a woman says "no, thank you" to you, you are never going to have a successful relationship.

 

I always tell myself (when I hear "No, Thank you) that it was her loss and I'll get the next one.  Again, it took practice to have this level of arrogance!!

[Thelambofdeth]

7 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

That is something you can change or at least "fake" and pretend to be extroverted.

 

Again, it is just taking small "baby steps" to beat that unjustified fear and take its power away.

 

OK, how about by the end of the week you make the attempt to talk to 3 women in a social environment.  You don't have to ask them out, just a comment or question.  What do you think??

I think that's a normal barometer to place upon anyone. And is something most people do without a second thought, daily. Yet I can guarantee there is a literal zero percent chance I even attempt.

[Happy Lemming]

1 minute ago, Thelambofdeth said:

Yet I can guarantee there is a literal zero percent chance I even attempt.

OK... you choose the "baby step" you want to take.  As long as you are moving in a positive direction you will meet your goal.  If you do nothing, you will never meet your goal and stay exactly where you are.

 

Tell me your suggestion... for the next "baby step"??

 

[Thelambofdeth]

15 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Well, you do have to have "thick skin"... If you are going to go off and cry each time a woman says "no, thank you" to you, you are never going to have a successful relationship.

 

I always tell myself (when I hear "No, Thank you) that it was her loss and I'll get the next one.  Again, it took practice to have this level of arrogance!!

It's not about "crying" its that it would just reaffirm what I already thought enough and squander and motivation I had to continue.

 

Yes, but that's an level of confidence only attained after a certain level of success. Getting there initially is pretty much a catch 22. You need positive reinforcement.

 

1 minute ago, Happy Lemming said:

OK... you choose the "baby step" you want to take.  As long as you are moving in a positive direction you will meet your goal.  If you do nothing, you will never meet your goal and stay exactly where you are.

 

Tell me your suggestion... for the next "baby step"??

 

I have literally no idea....the only method I beleive conducive to me is OLD, and its not an option.

[Happy Lemming]

5 minutes ago, Thelambofdeth said:

I have literally no idea....the only method I beleive conducive to me is OLD, and its not an option.

I am 100% in agreement with you that on-line dating is not an option for you.

 

I briefly tried OLD many years ago and it was complete crap.  I "threw in the towel" fairly quickly on that method and went back to my tried and true "real life" dating methods.

 

I think you just have to face that fear.  Do you have a neighborhood pub or watering hole (local to you)??

[Thelambofdeth]

4 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

I am 100% in agreement with you that on-line dating is not an option for you.

 

I briefly tried OLD many years ago and it was complete crap.  I "threw in the towel" fairly quickly on that method and went back to my tried and true "real life" dating methods.

 

I think you just have to face that fear.  Do you have a neighborhood pub or watering hole (local to you)??

The closest ones are too college kid-y, basic and loud. After triangulating the two I alluded to earlier are the ones I most "fit in" with.

[Happy Lemming]

1 minute ago, Thelambofdeth said:

The closest ones are too college kid-y, basic and loud.

Those bars aren't going to work (for you). 

 

How about Sports Bars??  Any of those close to you??

[Thelambofdeth]

2 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Those bars aren't going to work (for you). 

 

How about Sports Bars??  Any of those close to you??

Hence the wine bar and dive bar I mentioned earlier. That wine bar has an area for people to engage separately st tables, and a proper bar where you'll find stragglers or just say a girl and a friend not an entire party. I pretty much know the entire staff there alongside the bar down the block that's about as alternative or weird you get in my area(which I believe fits me the most).

 

They're easily the two I feel most comfortable and had any modicum of success at. Sports bars are...eh. I don't exactly dress for or fit in with that casual atmosphere of a sports bar.

[Happy Lemming]

OK... How about a used book store??  Any of those nearby??

[basil67]

1 hour ago, Thelambofdeth said:

I'm introverted. So apparently I come off a detached, haughty, judgmental, rigid, etc because I'm quiet and indifferent in most social settings. It takes time for me to warm up to people I'm unfamiliar with, and my disposition reflects that.

 

And lol all my old pictures capture the same expression. I'm not exactly "photogenic".

I'm introverted too.   People who are introverted need alone time in order to recover after socialising.  But they can certainly be warm and sociable.   What you are describing is something else.   When you say that it takes time for you to warm up to people, how do you react if the person you start talking with shows genuine friendliness towards you and can hold up their end of the conversation easily?     With your photos, do you choose photos in which you are smiling?  Or doing something interesting?  

Quote

 

Work is different. It's a professional setting, so I act accordingly. Strictly so. I know all interactions are professional so there's. No pressure.

 

For someone in my position it might as well be another language. And my problem isn't necessarily continuing a conversation. In the instances I'm forced to talk, I can carry a conversation. I'm overly-analytical and store ton of useless information, and I can "act" the part if need be. I'm also an exceptional, genuine lister so I'm apt at steering thing in that direction if a conversation loses steam. My many issue is just garnering opportunities in which any of this can be utilized.

 

But even if they politely decline you, it's a rejection nonetheless. And with low self-esteem, that's what I'll dwell on...

So if you can talk to an attractive woman at work, then you CAN talk to an attractive woman.   Try doing it in a social situation without a goal of getting a date - no pressure.  Also, it would be wise to question why you have these attractive women on a pedestal.  Given that beauty is only skin deep, what makes them more frightening than regular women?  

 

This thing about you being an exceptional, genuine listener who can steer a conversation if it loses steam.  I find this hard to imagine if you come off as haughty, detatched, judgemental, slow to warm up and are 'forced' to talk.   A good listener is one of these latter things.  Which one are you really?

 

The thing with rejection is that you need to mitigate the risks by building a rapport first.  Use those great listening skills to get some great conversation happening and pique her interest.   With garnering opportunities, how often do you go out with your friends?  Do you have both male and female friends?   Are you prepared to date women who are average in looks?  After all, most of us are degrees of average.

 

Why won't you dress appropriately for a sports bar?   I strongly suspect your inability to dress for the occasion could be part of the thing holding you back.  

Edited December 10, 2019 by basil67
add paragraph

[Thelambofdeth]

10 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

OK... How about a used book store??  Any of those nearby??

There's one in the same district.