Question for OW here!

[Hip Pocket]

39 minutes ago, JimmyNorth said:

Pocket, do you ever think you’ll want yur MM to yourself? Eventually?

Do you get lonely on holidays or things like that? I was thinking that you’d end up wanting exclusive one day.

What are your thought?

At one time it’s all I ever thought of but after a lot of back and forth and settling into a nice place in the EMR I am happy with where we are at. Even if he left or became widowed tomorrow I’d have a few reservations on being together full time. He has my heart and there are so many reasons to respect him but we’d have to work on some family dynamics that I disagree with and we’d have to maintain the same rules we use now applied to politics because we vote in polar extremes and living together full time could challenge the peace we currently enjoy. So far it hasn’t been an issue but I’m not blind to the possibilities on that turning around in a full time R. 
 

I don’t get lonely on holidays as I have adult children who I spend holidays with and MM and I talk and often see each other on holidays. Where there is a will there is a way. And if that doesn’t work there is the day before or the day after which actually takes the edge off the stress of it all. This R taught me that and so much more. 
 

A consequence of not moving quick enough into an out in the open R with the OW is having her learn that it might not be the best option after all. That might be a hard lesson for him once he finds himself D or widowed. 
 

The word exclusive is interesting as I already feel exclusive with him on many levels. We are sexually exclusive which matters the most to me and I know I have his heart whereas his W has his friendship.  In that regard I am satisfied because if I were in the same shoes I’d want more than friendship in a M. 

I hope this helps. 

[oldtruck]

19 hours ago, Pocket said:

At one time it’s all I ever thought of but after a lot of back and forth and settling into a nice place in the EMR I am happy with where we are at. Even if he left or became widowed tomorrow I’d have a few reservations on being together full time. He has my heart and there are so many reasons to respect him but we’d have to work on some family dynamics that I disagree with and we’d have to maintain the same rules we use now applied to politics because we vote in polar extremes and living together full time could challenge the peace we currently enjoy. So far it hasn’t been an issue but I’m not blind to the possibilities on that turning around in a full time R. 
 

I don’t get lonely on holidays as I have adult children who I spend holidays with and MM and I talk and often see each other on holidays. Where there is a will there is a way. And if that doesn’t work there is the day before or the day after which actually takes the edge off the stress of it all. This R taught me that and so much more. 
 

A consequence of not moving quick enough into an out in the open R with the OW is having her learn that it might not be the best option after all. That might be a hard lesson for him once he finds himself D or widowed. 
 

The word exclusive is interesting as I already feel exclusive with him on many levels. We are sexually exclusive which matters the most to me and I know I have his heart whereas his W has his friendship.  In that regard I am satisfied because if I were in the same shoes I’d want more than friendship in a M. 

I hope this helps. 

this OM will not be the first or the last to say he was not having sex with his BW

Edited February 18, 2020 by oldtruck

[Prudence V]

22 hours ago, oldtruck said:

this OM will not be the first or the last to say he was not having sex with his BW

Are you saying that this is always a lie? 

Sure, some MM lie about this. But others don’t. My H and I were sexually exclusive while he was still married to his xBW. And yes, they slept in separate bedrooms. If you read these boards, you’ll notice that sexless marriages are sometimes a thing. 
 

[WasOtherWoman]

So are you even SURE she really did sleep with this other person?  When i was in an EMR, my MM thought i was doing gosh knew what with gosh knew whom.  I wasn't, but i also did not allow him to be privy to my "private life" when i was certainly not privy to his.    So - this was not a topic he was allowed to have an opinion on.  He was smart enough to know that, left to my own devices for too long, i would likely soon find someone else, and he needed to do whatever it took to prevent that from happening.   (really, no different than we do in other life situations, act on something, or the chance is forever gone.....).    Maybe she just allowed you think what you wanted?

[Hip Pocket]

On 2/18/2020 at 6:55 AM, oldtruck said:

this OM will not be the first or the last to say he was not having sex with his BW

I’m sure there are some MM who lie about this, just as there are liars within any group of people. Maybe your W is lying to you about something, who knows? I certainly don’t and I don’t care.

 

What I do care about is having a partner who is brutally honest with me and he has been, even when it hurts. She filed for D when she realized he couldn’t perform with her anymore but when she realized she’d lose so much more (financially) she changed her mind, opting for a lifelong friend that she calls her H. She gets her friendship, I get my exclusive lover, and we are all happy. 

[JimmyNorth]

On 2/19/2020 at 10:49 AM, WasOtherWoman said:

So are you even SURE she really did sleep with this other person?  When i was in an EMR, my MM thought i was doing gosh knew what with gosh knew whom.  I wasn't, but i also did not allow him to be privy to my "private life" when i was certainly not privy to his.    So - this was not a topic he was allowed to have an opinion on.  He was smart enough to know that, left to my own devices for too long, i would likely soon find someone else, and he needed to do whatever it took to prevent that from happening.   (really, no different than we do in other life situations, act on something, or the chance is forever gone.....).    Maybe she just allowed you think what you wanted?

She admitted that she did see another guy. And then she stopped having sex him after 5 times. But it was exactly what you said... I left her to her own devices for nearly 4 years. It was at this point I knew I truly wanted her and no longer wanted to make her feel like a side piece. 

[WasOtherWoman]

Four years is an awfully long time for her to wait... I think you should count yourself lucky that she hung in for that long.

 

[JimmyNorth]

On 2/24/2020 at 12:20 PM, WasOtherWoman said:

Four years is an awfully long time for her to wait... I think you should count yourself lucky that she hung in for that long.

 

Yes, that was way too long.

[hissecret]

Congrats to you @JimmyNorth would love to get your insight on my thread!

[JimmyNorth]

2 hours ago, hissecret said:

Congrats to you @JimmyNorth would love to get your insight on my thread!

@hissecret I just replied to your thread. I hope it helps!

[MadlyDeeply]

Hello JimmyNorth, I just wanted to say hi as new on here(I'm the ow but m) and was wondering how you and your gf are getting on now, I'm so happy for you that it all turned out so well. I've been ow for over 2 yrs now and it hurts so much, you are so lucky all these bad times are behind you and you can start living again. Wish you all the best. 

[JimmyNorth]

23 hours ago, MadlyDeeply said:

Hello JimmyNorth, I just wanted to say hi as new on here(I'm the ow but m) and was wondering how you and your gf are getting on now, I'm so happy for you that it all turned out so well. I've been ow for over 2 yrs now and it hurts so much, you are so lucky all these bad times are behind you and you can start living again. Wish you all the best. 

Hi and welcome! We are still together and going strong. We are living our life just as a bf/gf would. We are living in our little apartment and lovin’ it. 

What’s your story with MM? Does he profess his love to you?

[MadlyDeeply]

Thank you for the welcome Jimmy. Your story gives me hope, so happy for you both. Yes my mm tells me that he loves me more than I tell him. I want to shout it from the roof tops but don't want to scare him away! Just posted my story. Thank you 

[texasgreeneyes]

Just read through all of this since I had so many questions in the other thread and someone directed me to it! Are you still going through your divorce or is that finalized? When I got divorced many years ago, it took about three months to finalize, but I know it can take much longer depending on the people and where they live! Was it hard for you to leave behind material things (like your house, etc)? What do your grown kids think (haha, I think I read you had kids somewhere in another thread)?

[mark clemson]

 I'm posting this to your thread in case it turns into some long debate, since this claim was directed at you.

17 hours ago, Amethyst68 said:

Oh yes it was abuse, just ask any BS. I don't know if you were still having sex with your BW and I don't need to know that's your private information but whenever you have sex with someone outside your relationship you are risking your partner's life. Sounds melodramatic I know but it's what brought me here...

I don't want to be disrespectful to Amethyst and the pain she and those she knows has gone through. I do think this labeling of you and by implication others who've cheated bears some reasonable discussion.

I think there are people who hate and/or want to demonize cheaters and find this label appealing. Abuse implies a criminal act and so when people use it, they get to indirectly suggest that all cheaters are somehow criminals. I think realistically that's far from the case.

Cheating is always at least somewhat selfish, and deceptive, and can cause emotional pain, especially when discovered. However, spouses do selfish things all the time, sometimes major ones that can indeed cause emotional pain. Buying an expensive car at a difficult time financially, taking on a debt, acting irresponsibly, going on an extended vacation alone, joining a cult, etc. etc. A decision to divorce is a big one, if you think about it. But none of this is generally considered abuse - it's considered making decisions. Keeping a secret from your partner, even a "big one" with implications for the marriage isn't generally seen as abuse either.

As for the safety risking - well, you're risking a partner's (and family's) safety every time you drive too fast on the freeway. And sometimes they indeed get injured or killed that way. Does that constitute abuse? Certainly it's not the prevailing view.  Now if you know the AP has an STI, that's a different story.

There are no doubt some genuine abusers who also cheat. It's also possible to deliberately cheat without keeping it secret and e.g. flaunt it/taunt your partner about it or otherwise "rub it in their face". Something like that might indeed be abusive depending on how distressed the partner gets over it. But speaking generally I think that's far from the usual case.

I checked your thread and didn't see anything that looked to me like abuse. I doubt your xW was too happy when you separated and soon thereafter you were with your OW, but unless there are details you're not providing this appears to be just how things played out.

[heartwhole2]

When my husband drives too fast on the freeway with me in the car, I can see how fast he's going and say, "Hey, that's a little too fast." An affair is like he blindfolded me and threw me in the trunk and then drove however he saw fit, with me entirely dependent upon his judgment when I didn't consent to being put in that position.

The definition of abuse is bad, wrong, or improper treatment. I think you are thinking too narrowly of abuse as something like violent treatment. Lying? Bad, wrong, and improper. Potentially exposing me to STDs without my knowledge or consent? Bad, wrong, and improper. Gaslighting me when I asked about his relationship with the OW? Bad, wrong, and improper. Etc. 

 

[mark clemson]

31 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

When my husband drives too fast on the freeway with me in the car, I can see how fast he's going and say, "Hey, that's a little too fast." An affair is like he blindfolded me and threw me in the trunk and then drove however he saw fit, with me entirely dependent upon his judgment when I didn't consent to being put in that position.

The definition of abuse is bad, wrong, or improper treatment. I think you are thinking too narrowly of abuse as something like violent treatment. Lying? Bad, wrong, and improper. Potentially exposing me to STDs without my knowledge or consent? Bad, wrong, and improper. Gaslighting me when I asked about his relationship with the OW? Bad, wrong, and improper. Etc.

Please keep in mind when you read this that I like vast majority of your posts and the advice you give around here.

Again, keeping a secret from a spouse isn't generally considered abuse. You could be comfortably seated in the back seat of a mini-van watching a movie with your kids and have your husband speed and in fact take a few dangerous risks driving while you and they are quite happy. Stupid perhaps, but not generally considered abuse.

Lots of people do things that others might consider improper and wrong. A woman applying for a job might not inform anyone of her plan to have 3 kids within the next few years. The hiring manager might personally feel that was wrong and improper as it may cause lots issues with seeking replacement workers, etc. It may even be perceived as "taking risks" since there can be complications during pregnancy. But we'd hardly call that abuse.

In addition, it seems like whenever I read an OW thread there are people pointing out that MM has a happy life with his (often unknowing) BS. Social gatherings, tropical vacations, etc - all the stuff the OW doesn't get to participate in. Respectfully, are you claiming all of those posts are baloney? Many of them seem to be strongly implying the cheating MM is giving his wife a pretty decent life. Hardly abusive.

It seems to me the narrative around here goes in whatever direction suits the intent of the posters. If it's convincing an OW "things will never work out" (usually true by the way IMO) the cheater can be treating the BS quite sweetly, or at least decently, in their day-to-day life. But if it's certain posters trying to convince a cheater (even a reformed one) that "they're bad people" or whatever, then suddenly it's all abuse.

You can't have it both ways. Cheating, in and of itself, isn't generally recognized as abuse. That's a reasonable view, and that's my take too.

[pepperbird]

4 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

When my husband drives too fast on the freeway with me in the car, I can see how fast he's going and say, "Hey, that's a little too fast." An affair is like he blindfolded me and threw me in the trunk and then drove however he saw fit, with me entirely dependent upon his judgment when I didn't consent to being put in that position.

The definition of abuse is bad, wrong, or improper treatment. I think you are thinking too narrowly of abuse as something like violent treatment. Lying? Bad, wrong, and improper. Potentially exposing me to STDs without my knowledge or consent? Bad, wrong, and improper. Gaslighting me when I asked about his relationship with the OW? Bad, wrong, and improper. Etc. 

 

It can even delve into financial abuse. Many WS fund their dalliances from "the family pot:"
personally, I find it repugnant when family money is used for this purpose.

[heartwhole2]

4 hours ago, mark clemson said:

In addition, it seems like whenever I read an OW thread there are people pointing out that MM has a happy life with his (often unknowing) BS. Social gatherings, tropical vacations, etc - all the stuff the OW doesn't get to participate in. Respectfully, are you claiming all of those posts are baloney? Many of them seem to be strongly implying the cheating MM is giving his wife a pretty decent life. Hardly abusive.

It seems to me the narrative around here goes in whatever direction suits the intent of the posters. If it's convincing an OW "things will never work out" (usually true by the way IMO) the cheater can be treating the BS quite sweetly, or at least decently, in their day-to-day life. But if it's certain posters trying to convince a cheater (even a reformed one) that "they're bad people" or whatever, then suddenly it's all abuse.

You can't have it both ways. Cheating, in and of itself, isn't generally recognized as abuse. That's a reasonable view, and that's my take too.

My take on the "MM is happy with his wife, he's where he wants to be" posts is that those posters are helping burst a common fallacy that OW engage in, which is that the MM is unhappy at home and happy with the OW, so therefore, logically, he will leave the marriage. If those posts help someone, far be it from me to rain on their parade, but no, that is not advice that I would give. Nor do I subscribe to the idea that all cheaters or APs are terrible people, but I do suggest that they are doubling down on their less favorable qualities while having an affair. On DDay I asked my husband how he could treat a poor single OW who really wanted to get married that way. Of course I wasn't pleased that this stranger had seen fit to "date" my husband, but I didn't know her; I knew the man I married and I thought he treated people better than that. I didn't think he'd let someone put her life on hold and her heart on the line for a minuscule chance at a future together.

I think that when OW are struggling with self-esteem and have lacked good examples of healthy relationships, they have a poor framework for evaluating the MM's actions. So if a reformed OW on LS can help that OW poke holes in the narrative she's telling herself, great. I see the usefulness in that. But I'm not a fan of oversimplifying anything. I'd say I had a "best case scenario" for my husband's affair -- he hates lying and generally doesn't do it, so his inner conflict was obvious, though I still did not think he'd actually have an affair (he told me he was stressed about work). I didn't find out I was living with someone who can lie with no compunction; he always looked like he was trying to hold in a fart when he'd lie and I kept puzzling over the things that didn't make sense. And within a week or two after DDay when he'd cut off the OW, he was super giddy that he didn't miss her more and to feel like we were having a "second honeymoon." So I guess this would fit that narrative, right? MM really did love me after all. He wasn't a terrible person.

And yet . . . this was the very worst period of our marriage. He was hot and cold. He was mean and distant. He acted like a big martyr while he went out all the time without ever asking if it was OK. He was cocky. He was drinking a huge amount each night. He and the OW were egging each other on to "break the rules because life is short" and the result was he was being his worst self. Which frankly, I am sad that this isn't obvious to every OW just by the fact that he's willing to cheat with her. And even though he remembered that he loved me [eye roll] relatively quickly, it took years of IC and work on himself to become the mature and humble and selfless man I thought I married. He dragged his feet about everything I needed in the first year or two. Today, 5 years later, he has the stores of resilience and self-love to anticipate and accommodate affair triggers, to put others before himself, to live in gratitude. But he had to climb a mountain to get there.

None of us are irredeemable, not the MM who thinks he deserves an affair or an OW who falls for it. I write here because I hope people will value themselves and others. When they do that, they will enjoy the fruits of a life well lived, something which by definition doesn't involve self-medication via unnecessary risk-taking or vow breaking or future faking or pretzel logic justifying or bald face lying. Whether you want to call that abuse or not doesn't really matter. It's harmful and not something that should be part of a healthy life. It's important to recognize when we are attracted to unhealthy situations and people and when we engage in magical thinking about our ability to turn them healthy. 

[heartwhole2]

I sometimes see BS on another forum say that cheaters are a certain breed of person, once a cheater always a cheater, etc. I don't buy into that either. When we are down and out we tend to cling to what we can, and sometimes that's the moral high ground. But I believe I'm just as likely as the next person to enjoy attention, falling in love, sex, etc. We're human beings and those things hit our pleasure centers. I understand that if I'm not careful, I could go down that road too. It doesn't mean I'm necessary a better person than someone who does go down that road. Affairs are very human mistakes.

Then there's the tendency of the two people in the affair to vilify the BS. How many posts are there about the "controlling" and "emotionally abusive" BW . . . apparently so controlling that the MM is able to have a secret girlfriend behind her back. This is because we all know that cheating is a really crappy thing to do to someone, but maybe if they "deserve" it, it's OK. This can turn laughable, as when my husband unloaded his grand grievances on me on DDay . . . that I didn't ask about his day enough (probably true, though I'm an introvert and he's an extrovert so I just figured he'd bring up things he wanted to) and that I didn't walk around town with him anymore (our youngest was 2 & 3 during the affair, and when I was pregnant with her I became dizzy and fatigued and never recovered). But surely his OW thought he was genuinely neglected and deservedly unhappy, right? Had he ever put himself in my shoes and considered what I was going through? Did he feel empathy for how I had gone from healthy to just struggling to do the bare minimum? No, he just resented me. But in his world where he never discussed hard things, everything ballooned out of control. 

We are opposites in many ways, which I think is a good thing in a marriage. We complement each other. When it came to conflict, he just never brought it up, whereas I would always immediately address any grievance, even if the timing was bad. And then sometimes when I was discussing "my thing," he'd explode with a long list of unshared grievances. And I'd be like, "Huh? We were discussing X." And he'd drop it, and simmer some more. We've worked on this. I have learned to think more about how he'd like to hear hard things, and he's learned to share his. It took a lot of practice.

All this is to say, I would not a counsel an OW, "Oh, he loves his wife." That's neither here nor there. I'm not so concerned with Love the Feeling but with Love the Action. And while he's having an affair, his actions are showing that he is not willing or able to love anyone the right way. A healthy person exits a marriage or asks for an open one before starting a relationship with someone new. But then, that wouldn't be fun, would it? It's not illicit any more. It's not about a fantasy of something that maybe could be better. It's about being a grownup and looking in the mirror and saying and doing hard things.

[mark clemson]

My thought would be that how "actually bad" (vs. "perceived bad") the BS is probably varies quite a bit from marriage to marriage. And I DO think some WSs are not really unhappy at all but just want "extra" and the BS is "no bad" at all. We had a poster just like that not so long ago. 

Definitely agree the hard but ethical thing to do of course is separating if you're really unhappy enough to want someone else or suddenly decide you're done with married life and need to play the field or what have you.

[JimmyNorth]

3 hours ago, mark clemson said:

My thought would be that how "actually bad" (vs. "perceived bad") the BS is probably varies quite a bit from marriage to marriage. And I DO think some WSs are not really unhappy at all but just want "extra" and the BS is "no bad" at all. We had a poster just like that not so long ago. 

Definitely agree the hard but ethical thing to do of course is separating if you're really unhappy enough to want someone else or suddenly decide you're done with married life and need to play the field or what have you.

Mark, I couldn’t agree with you more!

Sometimes the human nature of some things are complicated and not always black and white as some may view!

[stillafool]

12 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

A healthy person exits a marriage or asks for an open one before starting a relationship with someone new. But then, that wouldn't be fun, would it? It's not illicit any more. It's not about a fantasy of something that maybe could be better. It's about being a grownup and looking in the mirror and saying and doing hard things.

Exactly.  They would rather take the coward's way out rather than tell the truth that they want someone else and set their spouse or partner free to do the same.  It's so selfish.

[heartwhole2]

52 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Exactly.  They would rather take the coward's way out rather than tell the truth that they want someone else and set their spouse or partner free to do the same.  It's so selfish.

And they're hedging their bets because they don't want to lose the sure thing of the marriage until they're absolutely certain a monogamous relationship with the AP is what they want. They tell themselves they're only non-monogamous because they are martyrs for their families but the truth is that's fun to be a bad boy/girl and break the rules, and the desire for what we can't have is strong. This is why a fraction of affairs turn into long-lasting, monogamous relationships. It's totally different when you're just a person -- not a martyr, not a sex-god -- and you have to deal with real life, which now includes two households, a divorce, etc. The high of finally getting what you have long desired will fade, and the question is what you are left with. What foundation is this relationship built on? 

[Starswillshine]

20 hours ago, mark clemson said:

In addition, it seems like whenever I read an OW thread there are people pointing out that MM has a happy life with his (often unknowing) BS. Social gatherings, tropical vacations, etc - all the stuff the OW doesn't get to participate in. Respectfully, are you claiming all of those posts are baloney? Many of them seem to be strongly implying the cheating MM is giving his wife a pretty decent life. Hardly abusive.

I am one of those BSs who had a great at home life. Traveled all over the world, etc. However, the mental and emotional turmoil that I experienced at DDay can only be described as abuse. Being exposed to STDs unknowingly... quite abusive. Abusing my trust in him.... abusive. Abusing the love that I have for me and our family, that was abusive. I just did not know it at the time. 

People like to sweep the real pain felt by BSs under the rug. Act like it is nothing. When you are blindsided and realize your entire life is fake... I never had "issues" before all of a sudden I found myself on meds to control the panic attacks. I did not eat. The triggers sent me to the bathroom to puke whatever I could consume. My psychologist diagnosed me with PTSD. It was an awful time in my life. Anyone putting someone through that... Yes, that is abusive. 

Now I know what will come next, but if the BS never finds out..... that is a BIG "If"