Intergenerational Courtships

[K.K.]

1 minute ago, awalns said:

I could tell she wasn't just being polite when she wanted to see those pictures; she was truly interested.  The vibes suggested this

 

I honestly can’t tell you how many penis pictures I’ve looked at simply because they were so psyched about showing me and I didn’t want to seem impolite. Well that and because I don’t go all ‘I’m offended’ on people much. Live and let live. 

 

I even give them compliments and tips and everything. “Nice angle, Barney! Makes it look like the Empire State Building oh my god ! !” 

[elaine567]

They were both women who are paid to be nice to the public and show interest in customers.
Unfortunately for them they are sitting targets, to any would be suitor.
Once it became clear you were romantically interested, they both shut you down.

[awalns]

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 12:33 PM, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

 

Because you misinterpreted their intentions from Go.  Why did you think the lifeguard would be interested in your photos?  Was she from that area or planning to visit?  Girls are taught their whole life to be nice, be nice, be nice, be nice.  She wasn't about to say "um, no, I don't want to see your random photos..." so she sat down and was a nice girl.  

 

The drawing from the restaurant worker--was it a nude or just a woman?

And even if what you say is true about being taught to be nice, maybe this is part of the problem.  Many guys (especially lonely, vulnerable ones) often can and will take their niceness as something else.  Maybe they will think "she likes me" or "she seems to want to get to know me better".  So it may be creating false impressions and false expectations.  This could be part of why guys make so many unwanted advancements towards girls.  Girls really need to be mindful of the power they have when it comes to this sort of thing; they need to have that "better safe than sorry" mentality if they are only trying to be "nice".

[awalns]

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 2:09 PM, elaine567 said:

They were both women who are paid to be nice to the public and show interest in customers.
Unfortunately for them they are sitting targets, to any would be suitor.
Once it became clear you were romantically interested, they both shut you down.

Yes, that appears to be true in MANY cases for me. There is one girl at a Kwik Trip who was always so bubbly and smiling whenever I would come in; lately she just glances in my direction and goes on with her work.  It just seems so two faced.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

6 minutes ago, awalns said:

Girls really need to be mindful of the power they have when it comes to this sort of thing; they need to have that "better safe than sorry" mentality if they are only trying to be "nice".

 

This is bordering on "she asked for it" by the way she dressed, how she was dancing, what she was saying, etc.  Be careful with this line of thinking.  Perhaps it is you who needs to be more mindful.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

6 minutes ago, awalns said:

Yes, that appears to be true in MANY cases for me. There is one girl at a Kwik Trip who was always so bubbly and smiling whenever I would come in; lately she just glances in my direction and goes on with her work.  It just seems so two faced.

 

Two faced??  How so?  Are you seriously saying she needs to temper her personality so that men don't think she wants a romantic relationship with them?

[awalns]

5 minutes ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

 

This is bordering on "she asked for it" by the way she dressed, how she was dancing, what she was saying, etc.  Be careful with this line of thinking.  Perhaps it is you who needs to be more mindful.

Let us say there is more than enough room for improvement for everyone.  And YES she needs to mind her appearance and approach.  She needs to take at least SOME responsibility and not try to pin everything on the guy if she is accosted!

[awalns]

4 minutes ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

 

Two faced??  How so?  Are you seriously saying she needs to temper her personality so that men don't think she wants a romantic relationship with them?

If she wants to she should behave as such; if she doesn't she should pay him no mind.  Quite simple really.

[awalns]

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 1:11 PM, K.K. said:

 

I honestly can’t tell you how many penis pictures I’ve looked at simply because they were so psyched about showing me and I didn’t want to seem impolite. Well that and because I don’t go all ‘I’m offended’ on people much. Live and let live. 

 

I even give them compliments and tips and everything. “Nice angle, Barney! Makes it look like the Empire State Building oh my god ! !” 

These were not penis pics; they were rated G

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

2 minutes ago, awalns said:

Let us say there is more than enough room for improvement for everyone.  And YES she needs to mind her appearance and approach.  She needs to take at least SOME responsibility and not try to pin everything on the guy if she is accosted!

 

Oh boy.  How about we do a better job of raising men who are taught to never accost women?  Period.  Women do not deserve to be accosted ever, for any reason.  Why is this OK?  

 

 

[awalns]

6 minutes ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

 

Oh boy.  How about we do a better job of raising men who are taught to never accost women?  Period.  Women do not deserve to be accosted ever, for any reason.  Why is this OK?  

 

 

So they can behave  any way they want, dress any way they want, say anything they want, imply anything they want and everything is our fault???  Oh, boy that's rich.  No wonder our world is so messed up these days!

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

4 minutes ago, awalns said:

So they can behave  any way they want, dress any way they want, say anything they want, imply anything they want and everything is our fault???  Oh, boy that's rich.  No wonder our world is so messed up these days!

 

Well, let's put it this way.  We all know sexual assault is wrong, right?  It would be a heck of a lot more effective if we raised our sons to vow to never sexually assault a woman (no matter what she's wearing) rather than raising our daughters to fear it and always making sure to think of ways to avoid it.  It's not "messed up" to require boys and men to just NOT do it.  And that includes accosting women.

 

As far as women implying anything, you are assuming you have superb skills in inferring what women want.  And I think we've learned from this conversation that is not actually the case.  Women can't be held accountable for what they imply by men who have sub-par inference skills.

Edited December 26, 2019 by CautiouslyOptimistic

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

I know this is your thread, but this is reeealllly veering off the original topic, which is inter-generational courtships.  I'm wondering how the two issues are related, for you in your dating life.

[awalns]

17 minutes ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

I know this is your thread, but this is reeealllly veering off the original topic, which is inter-generational courtships.  I'm wondering how the two issues are related, for you in your dating life.

Some attributes (including ones that are not particularly attractive) are independent of age.

[awalns]

20 minutes ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

 

Well, let's put it this way.  We all know sexual assault is wrong, right?  It would be a heck of a lot more effective if we raised our sons to vow to never sexually assault a woman (no matter what she's wearing) rather than raising our daughters to fear it and always making sure to think of ways to avoid it.  It's not "messed up" to require boys and men to just NOT do it.  And that includes accosting women.

 

As far as women implying anything, you are assuming you have superb skills in inferring what women want.  And I think we've learned from this conversation that is not actually the case.  Women can't be held accountable for what they imply by men who have sub-par inference skills.

They can if they are part and parcel to it.  Again if she doesn't want to be involved with someone, FINE. She can just ignore him and go about her business and we will all be better off.  BTW you talked about raising our sons a certain way to be responsible but said NOTHING about our daughters.  Care to level the playing field?

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

12 minutes ago, awalns said:

They can if they are part and parcel to it.  Again if she doesn't want to be involved with someone, FINE. She can just ignore him and go about her business and we will all be better off.  BTW you talked about raising our sons a certain way to be responsible but said NOTHING about our daughters.  Care to level the playing field?

 

I have a daughter who is 18, going on 19.  She has been the victim of nonconsexual sex.  SHE went to her younger brother and tearfully lectured him about consent so it never happens to anyone HE dates.  She was not dressed provocatively (not her thing), he was her boyfriend at the time, and 6 months later when I finally worked up the courage (after a lot of prayer) to send his mother a nice email about it, just sharing it with her in case she wanted to have a talk with HER SON who was going off to college, about what consent means, for his own good, and for the good of future girlfriends, she completely blew me off and denied they ever even had sex.  "Not my son!"  Obviously she's not doing a good job of teaching consent to her son.  What do I teach my daughter?  YOU DESERVE TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY GIVE CONSENT!

 

My daughter is currently working in retail.  I find it really disturbing that, in your opinion, she should be ignoring you when you come into the store so that you don't get the wrong idea.  She should not smile and greet you too enthusiastically? Not ask how your Christmas was?  Not accidentally touch your hand as she gives you your change?  Newsflash....service workers have to be nice.  And 18/19 year old girls think men your age (my age!) are gross. Just yesterday, at Christmas dinner, we were talking about the dessert my aunt had made.  It was called, "The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford."  My two kids and my daughter's boyfriend were confused, of course having no clue who Robert Redford is.  I said, "I think the name of this dessert should be updated...."  And we all tried to think of something more modern.  I said, "Zac Efron."  My daughter said, "Ew, no, not anymore....he's old!"  I was like, "What!?  How old is he??"  She said, "like 25 or 26!!" 😂

 

Zac Efron is 32.  And that dessert is delicious, by the way.

Edited December 26, 2019 by CautiouslyOptimistic

[awalns]

36 minutes ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

I know this is your thread, but this is reeealllly veering off the original topic, which is inter-generational courtships.  I'm wondering how the two issues are related, for you in your dating life.

Also, younger women obviously are more like to (inadvertently??) send out signals that might be interpreted as liking a guy and not just being nice.  They are more inexperienced, not as mature as older women (although I seen quite a few my age over the years that are just as bad), and are likely to make these kinds of mistakes.  But they also tend to have a more "go for it" mentality if they like a guy.  So between this and the mixed signals, and the emotional mind games, and the day-to-day variations it has its own set of challenges but dating younger women still has much potential for some of what I mentioned earlier.  So in this sense what I have been talking about currently is quite relevant.

[awalns]

8 minutes ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

 

I have a daughter who is 18, going on 19.  She has been the victim of nonconsexual sex.  SHE went to her younger brother and tearfully lectured him about consent so it never happens to anyone HE dates.  She was not dressed provocatively (not her thing), he was her boyfriend at the time, and 6 months later when I finally worked up the courage (after a lot of prayer) to send his mother a nice email about it, just sharing it with her in case she wanted to have a talk with HER SON who was going off to college, about what consent means, for his own good, and for the good of future girlfriends, she completely blew me off and denied they ever even had sex.  "Not my son!"  Obviously she's not doing a good job of teaching consent to her son.  What do I teach my daughter?  YOU DESERVE TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY GIVE CONSENT!

 

My daughter is currently working in retail.  I find it really disturbing that, in your opinion, she should be ignoring you when you come into the store so that you don't get the wrong idea.  She should not smile and greet you too enthusiastically? Not ask how your Christmas was?  Not accidentally touch your hand as she gives you your change?  Newsflash....service workers have to be nice.  And 18/19 year old girls think men your age (my age!) are gross. Just yesterday, at Christmas dinner, we were talking about the dessert my aunt had made.  It was called, "The Next Best Thing to Robert Redford."  My two kids and my daughter's boyfriend were confused, of course having no clue who Robert Redford is.  I said, "I think the name of this dessert should be updated...."  And we all tried to think of something more modern.  I said, "Zac Efron."  My daughter said, "Ew, no, not anymore....he's old!"  I was like, "What!?  How old is he??"  She said, "like 25 or 26!!" 😂

 

Zac Efron is 32.  And that dessert is delicious, by the way.

I have seen service girls be quite professional in their approach which has not given my the SLIGHTLEST inkling that she may be interested in me.  It can be done and should be done.  She can offer good quality service without going over that threshold that says "hmm, maybe she is interested in more than just taking my purchase/order".  She may think it's no big deal to offer a very enthusiastic smile or bubbly disposition, but for someone like me these kinds of encounters don't happen too often and I often take them the wrong way (I am being misled).  That is why I often think beyond the transaction.  If every girl who worked at the kiosk acted the way the Kwik Trip girl did, I would clearly see that this is just business and nothing more.  But many can do a more robotic approach, get the job done, and not make any mistake about what their intentions are.  It's are art that has to be learned just like anything else.

Also, your daughter's case is not what I refer to.  I make reference to those girls who do provoke (even if unintentionally) and that impacts ALL girls.  That is why they have a collective responsibility to be modest in their dealings with the world.  That ALONE will help us guys to garner respect for ALL girls.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

1 minute ago, awalns said:

She may think it's no big deal to offer a very enthusiastic smile or bubbly disposition, but for someone like me these kinds of encounters don't happen too often and I often take them the wrong way (I am being misled).

 

You are the problem, not the bubbly cashier. She shouldn't have to change her personality because you are misinterpreting it.

[awalns]

1 minute ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

 

You are the problem, not the bubbly cashier. She shouldn't have to change her personality because you are misinterpreting it.

That is why when these things happen and I see how she really is I completely avoid her; I don't talk to her, don't look at her, don't interact with her.  In short I don't waste my time on her.  Problem solved, at least with that particular girl.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

3 minutes ago, awalns said:

I make reference to those girls who do provoke (even if unintentionally) and that impacts ALL girls.  That is why they have a collective responsibility to be modest in their dealings with the world.  That ALONE will help us guys to garner respect for ALL girls.

 

Why can't men just have respect for all girls because it's the decent thing to do?  And what does respect mean to you?  

 

If girls have a "collective responsibility to be modest in their dealings with the world," for what do boys have a collective responsibility?

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Just now, awalns said:

That is why when these things happen and I see how she really is I completely avoid her; I don't talk to her, don't look at her, don't interact with her.  In short I don't waste my time on her.  Problem solved, at least with that particular girl.

 

But you also accuse her of being two-faced. So, in your mind, she's still at fault.

[awalns]

On 12/26/2019 at 9:32 AM, awalns said:

That is why when these things happen and I see how she really is I completely avoid her; I don't talk to her, don't look at her, don't interact with her.  In short I don't waste my time on her.  Problem solved, at least with that particular girl.

And the best part is I can then move on for another opportunity and when I have that I will be like Dairy Queen:  "I treat her right!!!"

 

On 12/26/2019 at 9:33 AM, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

 

But you also accuse her of being two-faced. So, in your mind, she's still at fault.

Maybe I should ask her, why she was always so bubbly and smiling and now she just walks around like a zombie.  I would love to hear the reason.

She at least may be PARTIALLY at fault, even though she may not be aware of it.  Perhaps I should educate her on this approach.

Of course I need to be careful with this idea.  My son also works there and I don't want that to be awkward for him.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

4 minutes ago, awalns said:

She at least may be PARTIALLY at fault, even though she may not be aware of it.  Perhaps I should educate her on this approach.

 

lol, let us know how well that goes over.

 

I'm currently watching season 5 of an Australian drama called "A Place to Call Home."  One of the female leads just said, "Men describe the world from their point of view, which they confuse with the absolute truth."

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

6 minutes ago, awalns said:

Maybe I should ask her, why she was always so bubbly and smiling and now she just walks around like a zombie.  I would love to hear the reason.

 

Why is it any of your business?  Maybe she's depressed!