Dan Savage on Infidelity

[SCFenway]

Was listening to Dan Savage the other day and he quoted a woman ( a clinical therapist I believe) as saying "Sometimes the victim of the affair is not the victim of the marriage". Thoughts?

[ABernie]

My mother never had an affair, but I would never in a second fault her if she did.  My father was awful and it was a time when women had less opportunities to support their family.  Is that what they mean?  If my mom had an affair, my father would have been the victim of the affair, but he certainly was not the victim of the marriage.  

[Prudence V]

4 hours ago, SCFenway said:

"Sometimes the victim of the affair is not the victim of the marriage". Thoughts?

That was definitely the case in my H’s previous M. He resorted to an EMR to escape from the M, so while technically she, as the BS, may have been seen as the “victim” of the EMR, she was the perp when it came to the dysfunction in the M. 
 

(Though, she’s had her own As previously during the M, as has emerged since, so clearly not a “victim” on any level.) 

[mark clemson]

I think that is saying that sometimes the WS is so unhappy in the marriage (presumably due to a difficult BS) that they are "victims" too.

 

If correct, I think that while that can be accurate and some (certainly not all) BS are indeed very difficult spouses, an affair is not truly a reasonable solution or "punishment". Ideally (and life is seldom ideal) the unhappy spouse should either work to repair the issues in the marriage or leave it before "moving on" to a new partner.

 

Of course that can be easier said than done. In my view, in a situation like that the active WS is taking a "garden path" solution that temporarily makes them feel better (or possibly may be an attempt at "punishing" their BS or forcing an end to the marriage), but doesn't address the real issues in their marriage.

 

So, yes it is no doubt sometimes true and perhaps sometimes the "poor" BS was actually treating the WS horribly. But IMO the affair wasn't the right response to the situation.

[Happy Lemming]

Dan Savage...  I used to read his column in the local "rag" newspaper, then one week it was no longer there.

 

I very much enjoyed his writing. I have no comment or post for your question, but wanted to acknowledge "Dan Savage".

[2BGoodAgain]

I don't think when it comes to having affairs, it's about blame... 

 

if blame is the only thing you're looking for, then you aren't looking for a long term resolution to a bad situation, regardless of what kind of marriage it is. You're just looking to point fingers...

 

to recognize the facts isn't blaming, it's just stating that who did what so you can go on looking to a future where you can resolve whatever the situation is and the damage to done to one or both persons involved.

 

to have an affair is the wrong course of action, and does little to solve the situation on hand other than by force in an indirect method. which leads to move damaged lives and individuals than anything else, esp the one who cheats, believe it or not. All parties are affected and may lead to trauma which will affect not only the parties involved but future relationships that either party has.

 

it literally destroys lives, so even if the person who has an affair b/c of a unhappy marriage or an abusive one, may think this only affects me, my spouse, the OP... in reality, it'll have cascading affects on any future relationship all three or more persons have b/c of the emotional, mental even physical fallout from this affair(s).

 

 

[DKT3]

I personally believe its 99% bull. No marriage ever has been Rainbows and Unicorns all the time. So to say I cheated because I was unhappy is blaming the victim for your crime. 

 

With that being said I believe there is a small percentage of cheating that happens because a person doesn't have the skills to cope with a less than ideal relationship  as a poster above said its cant really be a blame game...however,  unhealthy people rarely have the ability to accept that ultimately they control all of their behavior.  So even in a horrible situation you are still responsible for your actions.  Saying I was a victim so I cheated is counterproductive and leads one to believe thier actions were somehow ok or at least not as bad in light of.

[Pleasant-Sage]

14 hours ago, SCFenway said:

Was listening to Dan Savage the other day and he quoted a woman ( a clinical therapist I believe) as saying "Sometimes the victim of the affair is not the victim of the marriage". Thoughts?

 

I do believe there's a lot of truth to this. Still doesn't excuse affairs though. Try to fix your broken down house first or just burn it down before you start building a new one. Your reason for burning it down should never be due to you deciding to build a new one.

 

 

[DKT3]

28 minutes ago, Pleasant-Sage said:

 

I do believe there's a lot of truth to this. Still doesn't excuse affairs though. Try to fix your broken down house first or just burn it down before you start building a new one. Your reason for burning it down should never be due to you deciding to build a new one.

 

 

And he is the real reason behind a majority of affairs...it really has very little to do with what the BS may have or did not do. It about the WS finding someone else then finding fault in any and every situation to justify the affair. In most situations its backwards to what the question of the thread is.

[elaine567]

5 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

...it really has very little to do with what the BS may have or did not do. It about the WS finding someone else then finding fault in any and every situation to justify the affair. In most situations its backwards to what the question of the thread is.

OK but surely if a person is happy in their marriage and happy with their spouse then why would they want to be with anyone else?
Yes I believe some will justify their affair by  retrospectively finding fault with their spouse, but I believe more are in unhappy, boring, unfulfilling, abusive. lonely... situations and go looking for an affair.to improve their life.

[Pleasant-Sage]

3 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

It about the WS finding someone else then finding fault in any and every situation to justify the affair. In most situations its backwards to what the question of the thread is.

 

I agree with this too.

 

Oddly, my ex never made excuses for her EA that lead to us getting divorced. She just refused to let go of it.

 

In my research of trying to figure out what went wrong, I determined my issues with alcohol and not listening to her opened the door or at least contributed to opening the door. Hell, Facebook had a hand in it too. LOL

 

Ultimately, the choice was hers...open door or not.

 

I do believe issues with relationships usually stem from a person's needs not being met. Which is basically what the OP stated.  It's easy to become too comfortable in relationship when your needs are being 100% met and you get a false sense of security.

[DKT3]

9 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

OK but surely if a person is happy in their marriage and happy with their spouse then why would they want to be with anyone else?
Yes I believe some will justify their affair by  retrospectively finding fault with their spouse, but I believe more are in unhappy, boring, unfulfilling, abusive. lonely... situations and go looking for an affair.to improve their life.

That's just it, no one will ever be happy all the time in along term relationship.  The overall general mode can be happy and a low can open the door to an affair.  I mean how many times has a WS opened a thread by saying I thought I was happy with my marriage? That's some nonsense,  if you thought you were happy then why were you open to having an affair? You dont go from zero to in love with your affair partner in the first moment you meet. No it's a flaw in that individual that opened the door.  The status of the relationship is not a determining factor for them prior.  Of course that isnt inclusive of all. Some do in fact look for escapes from bad marriages and partners...just not anywhere near as all those who claim it.small percentage. 

[Pleasant-Sage]

I think a lot of people just have a problem taking responsibility for their actions. Acknowledging an affair as a poor decision is the first step then an internal battle on what to do with the guilt ensues. This could be said for any poor decision unless you totally come to terms with it and own it.

 

Alcoholics and addicts do this.

[elaine567]

Most WS open threads with
"I am in a loveless, sexless marriage" 
Or "My wife/husband is a good person but there is just no connection/spark any more."
Or "I am in an affair and I want to or I am separating from my husband..."
Or " I am in  love with my MM and I want him to leave his wife so we can be together."

These people are desperate to leave, they just need someone to help them do it.
 

[mark clemson]

There's certainly truth to that in some portion of cases. There have been a few that sounded genuinely abusive too IIRC. The irony is, of course, that after a D-day many of these folks will attempt to run scurrying back to the BS tail tucked between their legs. Suddenly it's not such a cushy situation anymore. Maybe it's the psychology of the affair making the marriage feel more tolerable coming into play vice the sudden withdrawal of the "luxury" of having the solid support system of a spouse, etc (not to mention the financial hit of divorce). Dunno.

[elaine567]

Dday is a special circumstance, they have been outed as the "bad guy".
Many I guess want to retrieve their "nice guy" status in their family's eyes, so they scuttle back to try to repair the damage.
 

[2BGoodAgain]

people who cheat make rationalizations to justify why they cheat.

 

my AP and I both made our own rationalization for our cheating (this is true love, i'm in a loveless marriage that I tried to fix, I have kids in the marriage and I love my kids so I can't end this marriage right now, etc)….

 

in the end, it is excuses. There may be reasons behind it, both realistic and unrealistic, but in the end, we only control our actions. to say otherwise is giving yourself out for anything in the future as an excuse and not accepting our role in our behavior = no growth.

 

 

[Timshel]

On 12/12/2019 at 5:17 AM, SCFenway said:

 "Sometimes the victim of the affair is not the victim of the marriage". Thoughts?

 

A 'victim' of a bad marriage?  In which case, both are victims.  Two people who are not on the same page, no longer compatible, over it...for whatever reasons.  People grow apart or become increasingly aware that they are married to a person for whom they have little or no (romantic) love/compatibility.

Blame is supercilious, a chicken or the egg circumstance.  Who isn't in this more or who started being a jerk first, blah blah.

When a married person decides to add another person instead of addressing or divorcing, then we get into 'who's fault it is.'

Hypothetically, it's no person's 'fault' and no one is the 'victim.  Rather, an affair is a symptom of a defunct marriage.

[SCFenway]

1 hour ago, 2BGoodAgain said:

people who cheat make rationalizations to justify why they cheat.

 

my AP and I both made our own rationalization for our cheating (this is true love, i'm in a loveless marriage that I tried to fix, I have kids in the marriage and I love my kids so I can't end this marriage right now, etc)….

 

in the end, it is excuses. There may be reasons behind it, both realistic and unrealistic, but in the end, we only control our actions. to say otherwise is giving yourself out for anything in the future as an excuse and not accepting our role in our behavior = no growth.

 

 

Ok, but serious question... is withholding sex or intimacy abusive?

[2BGoodAgain]

15 minutes ago, SCFenway said:

Ok, but serious question... is withholding sex or intimacy abusive?

it's a form of manipulation.. if that's how you're perceiving it. is it withholding, or she/he just not feeling it?

[Pleasant-Sage]

43 minutes ago, SCFenway said:

Ok, but serious question... is withholding sex or intimacy abusive?

Great question!

 

I think that answer depends on motive. It most certainly could be but doesn't always have to be.

 

Intentionally using sex as a weapon against your partner is definitely a form of abuse. Not so much if it's a byproduct of depression or some other condition.

 

Differences in sex drives doesn't amount to abuse either. 

[carhill]

Regarding the marital victim part, our MC clarified the chicken/egg and affair stuff pretty well. He opined both spouses are responsible for the marriage and the unfaithful spouse is responsible for their infidelity.

IME, once two spouses get into the he/she did it first forensics, if they can't resolve that mindset together and get out of it, the marriage is doomed. Legally it might continue on for a little or a long time but the bond of belief and trust in each other is pretty much toast. 'What if' scenarios will always lurk. Each spouse is responsible for that, and for any actions they took as a result.

From my perspective as a hypothetical, was I abusing my spouse if she felt I denied her emotional intimacy and support? In her mind I was actively denying her. In my mind I was depressed and overwhelmed and oblivious to that. Who's right and who's wrong? That leads to another MC 'truth' couched in the form of a question....."Do you want to be right or be married?" Excellent food for thought.

[mark clemson]

Agree that it can be intentional or not (and so intended as a form of abuse, or not) and perceived different ways by the different partners.

 

My thought would be that, regardless of intent or cause if it's causing one spouse's needs to not be met then it is "hurting" them (or at least they may perceive it that way). And thus presumably hurting the marriage overall.  Doesn't have to be a dealbreaker, but it's adding an additional difficulty to things.

[2BGoodAgain]

55 minutes ago, carhill said:

Regarding the marital victim part, our MC clarified the chicken/egg and affair stuff pretty well. He opined both spouses are responsible for the marriage and the unfaithful spouse is responsible for their infidelity.

IME, once two spouses get into the he/she did it first forensics, if they can't resolve that mindset together and get out of it, the marriage is doomed. Legally it might continue on for a little or a long time but the bond of belief and trust in each other is pretty much toast. 'What if' scenarios will always lurk. Each spouse is responsible for that, and for any actions they took as a result.

From my perspective as a hypothetical, was I abusing my spouse if she felt I denied her emotional intimacy and support? In her mind I was actively denying her. In my mind I was depressed and overwhelmed and oblivious to that. Who's right and who's wrong? That leads to another MC 'truth' couched in the form of a question....."Do you want to be right or be married?" Excellent food for thought.

 

that reminds me... one possible n likely reason why she isn't feeling it with you, might be that the thing about affairs is... you grow/experience sexually with someone else.. I know DUH.. but the part most people don't realize is that when you grow/experience sexuality/emotions/etc with someone else, it also means you GROW AWAY from relationship. aka grow apart. 

 

So if she's used to a different way of having sex/sexual turn on, etc... and you weren't a part of it, you may no longer turn her on.. as the saying goes.

 

I know, how can sex be diff? sex is sex. Well, it really isn't. My AP and I over years grew to know how to excite and be excited by each other.. to a point, I fear, I may have inadvertently damaged her connection with her hubby so that mentally/emotionally/sexually... she wasn't turned on by him... on top of his own problems, that added to her misery.

 

I myself, found myself completely unattracted to my relationship... b/c I was so hooked on the intense feelings my AP invoked in me, that intense feeling which is artificial, was the only way I felt in the mood to do it.

 

hard to explain this unless you've been thru it, but I swear to you, its true.

[Super Phantom]

Just a statement to help people have less accountability in regards to infidelity. That person cheated instead of communicating what they felt or ending the relationship.