Dan Savage on Infidelity

[carhill]

3 hours ago, 2BGoodAgain said:

hard to explain this unless you've been thru it, but I swear to you, its true.

Yep, IMO personal experience is best. I went through MC over a decade ago and have been divorced nearly that long. Great learning experience. Our MC was top notch. They do vary widely though. I've never read or watched Dan Savage.

[Prudence V]

On 12/12/2019 at 4:22 PM, mark clemson said:

the unhappy spouse should either work to repair the issues in the marriage or leave it before "moving on" to a new

Some WS feel that they are trapped because of kids, that they’re stuck in the M until kids are old enough (however they define that) are are just finding a way to survive until then.

[mark clemson]

Quite true. It's definitely easier said than done or affairs would be less common.

[Prudence V]

On 12/13/2019 at 7:36 PM, Super Phantom said:

That person cheated instead of communicating what they felt

Maybe they tried communicating, repeatedly. Maybe they just got brushed off each time, or told they were wrong. Maybe they finally gave up trying to communicate? 

[Super Phantom]

20 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Maybe they tried communicating, repeatedly. Maybe they just got brushed off each time, or told they were wrong. Maybe they finally gave up trying to communicate? 

Then your option is to leave and not cheat. Like I said if you cheat it's your choice and you deal with the consequences

[2BGoodAgain]

On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 11:32 AM, Prudence V said:

Some WS feel that they are trapped because of kids, that they’re stuck in the M until kids are old enough (however they define that) are are just finding a way to survive until then.

 

yeah, my AP said the same thing, but in the end, it was more about the security of the relationship she didn't want to leave without a firm relationship to jump into (jumping from relationship to relationship).. though, i'm sure taking care of her kids or the continual stability, may have been a factor.. but in the end, I don't think it was. I"m sure she convinced herself it was. But if that was the case, you wouldn't necessarily endanger such a stability of mind of your children to have an affair that can be exposed, either. (shrug).

[Pleasant-Sage]

I was thinking earlier how cognitive dissonance plays a role in all of this too.

 

Everyone knows affairs are bad. They definitely aren't great for new relationships either. It's only a matter of time before your new flame wonders if you will do the same to them when that road gets bumpy too.

[2BGoodAgain]

26 minutes ago, Pleasant-Sage said:

I was thinking earlier how cognitive dissonance plays a role in all of this too.

 

Everyone knows affairs are bad. They definitely aren't great for new relationships either. It's only a matter of time before your new flame wonders if you will do the same to them when that road gets bumpy too.

 

as some have indicated, a few affairs do blossom into a different relationship that may lead to marriage... how long it lasts or if it becomes more than an affair, depends on how hard the two individuals work on it, I think.

[pepperbird]

In my experience, the people who say things like this are usually either the person who cheated or the other man/woman.

The idea flies n the face of the excuse " I wasn't looking for it. It just happened".  So which is it? I don;t know about anyone else, but I have never ever once been forced to start a relationship. No one ever hypnotized me into not having any self control.

If I were to cheat, it would be 100 percent on me. I get that there is comfort in blaming other,s but that;s what a child does. People always have choices. I know it's not fashionable to ask people to take responsibility, but really, it comes down to a person deciding that it was okay to cheat.  The "reasons" change nothing.

[Pleasant-Sage]

44 minutes ago, 2BGoodAgain said:

 

as some have indicated, a few affairs do blossom into a different relationship that may lead to marriage... how long it lasts or if it becomes more than an affair, depends on how hard the two individuals work on it, I think.

 

You are not wrong but statistically speaking, the equation appears to become increasingly complicated with each and every relationship.

 

My first divorce left me realizing I didn't really know what love was. I had my own perceived understanding of what to meant to me but that's not the whole picture. I read books and researched the subject and felt like I was good to go.

 

That's only half the battle as I've learned with my current marriage. When things started to go bad with this one, I once again started researching to try and figure out what went wrong.

 

50% of first marriages end in divorce. 67% of second marriages end in divorce. 75% of third marriages end in divorce. So, it appears to me that things increasingly get much more complicated with future relationships. Is there some other way to interpret that information?

 

I would be willing to bet those second and third divorce rates have a big connection to people repeating past behaviors such as "I'm lonely and need someone new to make me feel better about myself". 

 

Limerence is a quick fix for someone with an empty love bank.

[2BGoodAgain]

16 minutes ago, Pleasant-Sage said:

 

You are not wrong but statistically speaking, the equation appears to become increasingly complicated with each and every relationship.

 

My first divorce left me realizing I didn't really know what love was. I had my own perceived understanding of what to meant to me but that's not the whole picture. I read books and researched the subject and felt like I was good to go.

 

That's only half the battle as I've learned with my current marriage. When things started to go bad with this one, I once again started researching to try and figure out what went wrong.

 

50% of first marriages end in divorce. 67% of second marriages end in divorce. 75% of third marriages end in divorce. So, it appears to me that things increasingly get much more complicated with future relationships. Is there some other way to interpret that information?

 

I would be willing to bet those second and third divorce rates have a big connection to people repeating past behaviors such as "I'm lonely and need someone new to make me feel better about myself". 

 

Limerence is a quick fix for someone with an empty love bank.

 I quite agree.

 

The problem with statistics is that you have to understand the context or lack of context where those numbers are drawn. 

 

You can look at the statistics of more increasing rates of divorce as the number of marriages increases.. but it doesn't tell you who took counseling/therapy and who didn't.

 

I do believe people go by their gut/emotional feeling, but those can be very misleading at times, b/c what your brain says is a good feeling, may not necessarily be a good thing long term. Just a short term fix.

 

the chances of an affair becoming a better, long lasting relationship is statistically against you... very rare. BUT it IS possible,if both parties are honest with each other and themselves and not just jumping to a greener pasture... as the saying goes. Others have argued against me when I say all affairs are based on fantasy... i never said it ended in reality... just that most do. But I do believe if both parties are honest with themselves and each other, and with couples therapy, it IS possible to have a long term relationship afterwards.

 

i generally tell folks who are dating that it does matter where/how two people meet up... but it does affect how you transition into a long term lasting relationship... in all cases though, it requires both parties to work on it to make it work.

[DKT3]

The statistics support what we see happening on these very pages thread after thread. That is people not taking responsibility for their role in a bad relationship.  Very rarely do we see cheaters own it. It's most of the time my husband did or my wife didn't.  They then carry that attitude into the next relationship,  coupled with having gone through divorce or a bad breakup,  knows that they can bounce back makes it easier to walk away a second or third time. 

 

Affairs turned relationships fail for this reason,  but even more importantly,  once the novelty of the relationship wears, the participants start to focus on how the relationship started and if this person is now doing to them what they did with them. If they are is kinda irrelevant because the damage is done

 

We had a guy posting about a year maybe two ago who was in a relationship that started as an affair. He swore she was cheating even though he had absolutely no reason to believe so, according to him she rarely left the home. In the end he could handle what she did to her husband,  how poorly she treated and spoke about him. A part of him just didn't like her. She showed him how nasty she could be and felt it was only a matter of time before he was her husband. 

 

Those red flags were always there, but he persisted on in the relationship while it was hot and heavy.  Once it settled down he wanted out. As much as many believe we can erase the past we cannot. 

[mark clemson]

7 hours ago, Pleasant-Sage said:

Limerence is a quick fix for someone with an empty love bank.

 

Respectfully disagree. Think you mean NRE maybe? Full on limerence can be a difficult experience in it's own right since it's quite similar to being addicted to the person. It's literally out of your control and subjects you to being manipulated etc. It CAN feel wonderful but it can also be extremely distressing as you long for the other person, think about them constantly etc. Depending on the person and "intensity" limerence is not necessarily a healthy state of mind.

[Pleasant-Sage]

51 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

 

Respectfully disagree. Think you mean NRE maybe? Full on limerence can be a difficult experience in it's own right since it's quite similar to being addicted to the person. It's literally out of your control and subjects you to being manipulated etc. It CAN feel wonderful but it can also be extremely distressing as you long for the other person, think about them constantly etc. Depending on the person and "intensity" limerence is not necessarily a healthy state of mind.

 

I don't think I've ever distinguished a difference. From my understanding, all new relationships go through a limerence phase. After a period of time, if limerence hasn't rooted into true love then the feeling loses its hold on you.

 

Not saying your wrong with your analysis but google doesn't seem to differentiate much of a difference either with all it's different sources. Some book you read spoke of a difference?

 

As you said it can both be both a good thing or a bad thing but my reference to it was to people rushing to start affairs (emotional and/or physical) in effort to escape their love problems.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Pleasant-Sage

[RecentChange]

Both my husband and I have cheated.

 

I guess I should qualify by saying our "affairs" were short lived, counted by weeks or months, and there were no professions or love or deep emotional attachment to our respective APs.

 

That said - when my husband cheated, I recognized my role in the situation. We both had been neglecting the marriage and each other. Now of course he was responsible for cheating, and had his own work to do on himself from that angle - but WE had to work on US.

 

Years later - I had my own episode of selfish entitlement, which cheating boils down to. I recognize what I did wrong, how allowed myself to go awry, and my husband also acknowledge his role in the weakened strength of the marriage T that time.

 

Do happy people in perfect marriages cheat? Not in my experience. 

 

For us cheating was a symptom of something larger - both individually and within the relationship.

 

We have been together 19 years now. Yes those were two bumps along the way, but we learned a lot from them. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by RecentChange

[Piddy]

My experience with cheating was it was all about the sex.  My live in girlfriend cheated and left me for a guy who was married with kids.  For him she was a young, cheap piece of ass and for her he was a thrill f***.  He had no intentions of leaving his wife and kids and she knew that.

 

It's funny, looking back her affair was an affair by happenstance.  When she went to work that day she had no thoughts of cheating.  I got a call from her (workplace) that they had been broken into and the cops were taking her and a coworker out to breakfast next store to their workplace.  One of the cops hit on my girlfriend and she obviously was open to screwing him.

 

Then I experienced all the signs of cheating.  She started calling saying she was working late, personality change (unhappy, disagreeable, argumentative etc.) new friends and then one night she was gone for good.   It (her affair) was over in less than a month.

 

She obviously hid her unhappiness well because we were getting along as well as ever when this happened.  So I doubt she would've left when she did had she not got the opportunity to cheat and thus leave.  And I do think it was an impulsive decision to cheat.

 

Her desire for some thrill sex with a married man outweighed her desire to stay in the relationship.  It still amazes me that she valued our relationship so little to throw it away so easily.  We even had a new puppy which she acted like she loved, but never said goodbye to the puppy.

 

Obviously at that stage of her life she was a selfish, low integrity, impulsive young girl who made a poor decision.  She most likely was not as happy as she led me to believe, but had her store not been broken into that day she wouldn't have left me.  Now, she obviously was open to cheat and it was just a matter of time before another opportunity presented itself to her to cheat.

 

I think everyone has temptations, but some of us chose to act on them and some of us don't.  In my experience cheating is the worst thing you can do to your partner.  It adds a whole other level of hurt.  You never really get over it.  It gets buried deep inside you, but the scar tissue remains for a lifetime.  My cheating happened 43 years ago, so I speak from experience.

 

And I'm a believer in the saying that if you really love someone it's impossible to cheat.  Because if you truly love someone you would never do something that would hurt them as much as cheating does.  Worst emotional experience of my life.  

 

If you're that unhappy in your relationship and think you could cheat, then have the integrity, decency and respect for your partner to leave the relationship.  

Edited December 17, 2019 by Piddy

[mark clemson]

13 hours ago, Pleasant-Sage said:

I don't think I've ever distinguished a difference. From my understanding, all new relationships go through a limerence phase.

 

Hi, P-S. There's sort of a lot to untangle in discussing this (enough for a thread jack possibly, which I will try to avoid). You can have NRE with nearly any relationship with the associated positive feelings, enthusiastic sex, bonding etc. I believe our own Ruby Slippers poster is having that right now if you've read some of her recent posts.

 

Full-blown limerence is much rarer for most people, I believe, and is much more "obsessive". You think about the other person nearly constantly, etc and they are like an addiction to you. I had this and at it's height I experienced things like a sustained "dreamy" drug-like effect,  literally feeling like I was drowning and also being literally unable to look at the other person (due to it intensifying my emotional state to levels that were difficult to tolerate). That kind of stuff isn't normal, I think, in most relationships and in my view (and experience) is quite different from NRE.

 

You may be right about a brief "limerence" phase in many relationships as part of bonding where people start to idealize and "love" their partner that doesn't necessarily become full-on limerence. Haven't researched that but it sounds plausible and fits my personal experiences somewhat. And perhaps yours?

 

So I guess usually when I talk about limerence around here I'm talking about the full-blown kind.  I believe this is a rare experience that people have perhaps 3-5 times in a lifetime.

 

I have done some internet research but generally I've found the Wikipedia page pretty adequate for defining limerence. Here's a copy/paste of part of the page (emphasis mine):

 

"Limerence is a state of mind which results from a romantic attraction to another person and typically includes obsessive thoughts and fantasies and a desire to form or maintain a relationship with the object of love and have one's feelings reciprocated. Limerence can also be defined as an involuntary state of intense romantic desire."

[2BGoodAgain]

59 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

 

Hi, P-S. There's sort of a lot to untangle in discussing this (enough for a thread jack possibly, which I will try to avoid). You can have NRE with nearly any relationship with the associated positive feelings, enthusiastic sex, bonding etc. I believe our own Ruby Slippers poster is having that right now if you've read some of her recent posts.

 

Full-blown limerence is much rarer for most people, I believe, and is much more "obsessive". You think about the other person nearly constantly, etc and they are like an addiction to you. I had this and at it's height I experienced things like a sustained "dreamy" drug-like effect,  literally feeling like I was drowning and also being literally unable to look at the other person (due to it intensifying my emotional state to levels that were difficult to tolerate). That kind of stuff isn't normal, I think, in most relationships and in my view (and experience) is quite different from NRE.

 

You may be right about a brief "limerence" phase in many relationships as part of bonding where people start to idealize and "love" their partner that doesn't necessarily become full-on limerence. Haven't researched that but it sounds plausible and fits my personal experiences somewhat. And perhaps yours?

 

So I guess usually when I talk about limerence around here I'm talking about the full-blown kind.  I believe this is a rare experience that people have perhaps 3-5 times in a lifetime.

 

I have done some internet research but generally I've found the Wikipedia page pretty adequate for defining limerence. Here's a copy/paste of part of the page (emphasis mine):

 

"Limerence is a state of mind which results from a romantic attraction to another person and typically includes obsessive thoughts and fantasies and a desire to form or maintain a relationship with the object of love and have one's feelings reciprocated. Limerence can also be defined as an involuntary state of intense romantic desire."

 

yeah... I had that happen once to me... recently... I gotta tell you, the lows from that kind of high is … devastating... to your core.. 

though, tbh... I think she went thru it first... I only went thru it much later... though I always thought it happened only during the beginning of a relationshipo... that's why I was confused why it occurred literally 12 years later... whereas for her, she was way past anything close to it.

[mark clemson]

Yes, one thing I forgot to mention, but that was quite prominent, was that I would start thinking about her and start crying (due to longing). Sometimes just a little and sometimes more. I definitely cried over her more than 100 times. I didn't mind it in a way, but if that is seen as a "low" then it could be seen as devastating lows, yes.  "Addicted to the highs and lows" as the saying goes.

[2BGoodAgain]

10 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Yes, one thing I forgot to mention, but that was quite prominent, was that I would start thinking about her and start crying (due to longing). Sometimes just a little and sometimes more. I definitely cried over her more than 100 times. I didn't mind it in a way, but if that is seen as a "low" then it could be seen as devastating lows, yes.  "Addicted to the highs and lows" as the saying goes.

 

I can't say I've cried that many times, but it seriously broke me.. every thought, every glance, every waking moment.. her... like i'm a control freak... controlling my exterior face is survival for me. I could be dying and no one would know, as one ex used to complain to me once... but this time, it shattered any semblance of control... it was devastating to me.

 

I'm sure i'll feel the after effects of it for quite some time, though I've managed to quantify most of what happened to something close to a drug withdrawal/fix... I've noticed during unguarded times (waking up, letting my mind wander during quiet times, or sudden vision/audio/smell memories seem to bring about sudden uncalled memories....) it comes upon me suddenly, but mostly I've disciplined myself to get away from it.. I gotta tell you, someday it's quite tough...

 

logically, my mind would tell me it made no sense... I saw her for what she was... her faults, her delusions, her reality, her actual self, good and bad... but somehow my heart/body seem unable to really let go.. a serious addiction type of response.

 

I only started to feel hunger pains 2 months later. does that mean my body was going thru constant pain that it somehow overshadowed hunger? odd, right?

 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by 2BGoodAgain

[mark clemson]

Yep, I hear you.  Time outside in nature (even good nature pics on your computer screen), socializing with friends/family, hobbies, distraction, "community", workouts (with what's safe for you), a new relationship can all help take the edge off. But mostly it has to fade naturally I've found.  If it becomes impossible to contact her (e.g. she moves away) that may help too.

 

And yes, I read an article that said that neurologically, people's brains in this state are somewhat similar to cocaine addicts'. So, yes, like an addiction/drug withdrawals. In fact I believe cocaine addiction occurs in part due to activating many of these same brain regions.

Edited December 17, 2019 by mark clemson
add stuff

[2BGoodAgain]

3 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Yep, I hear you.  Time outside in nature (even good nature pics on your computer screen), socializing with friends/family, hobbies, distraction, "community", workouts (with what's safe for you), a new relationship can all help take the edge off. But mostly it has to fade naturally I've found.  If it becomes impossible to contact her (e.g. she moves away) that may help too.

 

hahhaa… yeah. I kinda forced that on her. Her last act pissed me off so much, b/c it felt like such a betrayal... that I started to say things you don't ever say if you want to continue... she started to block me, and I did not care... and I talked until she blocked me on every media forum. lol. Then I blocked her, as well... 

 

it helps. But you still gotta dig yourself out of the emotional/physical hell you put yourself into. That takes a lot of concerted effort.

[Pleasant-Sage]

25 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

You may be right about a brief "limerence" phase in many relationships as part of bonding where people start to idealize and "love" their partner that doesn't necessarily become full-on limerence. Haven't researched that but it sounds plausible and fits my personal experiences somewhat. And perhaps yours?

 

Yeah, no need to thread jack but the topics are related so a brief discussion should not be a problem. Just diving deep into the subject at hand.

 

I think I first read about it in the love languages book. I've read other books on affairs and they talked about it as well.

 

I've never experienced it without it manifesting into true love. Sounds like a nightmare to just wake up one morning and feel totally disconnected to someone you cared about the day before.

 

My only relation to NRE in a sense of their being an actual difference is when I was in Afghanistan. The military had me on mefloquine. It's a anti-malaria medication. I read that they now believe it causes brain damage and has contributed to the cause of PSTD. Anyways, when they gave it to me, doctor said it causes vivid dreams. I asked what was that? She said, you'll find out.

 

I sure enough did. I had crazy real dreams. Skipping to the point, I had one were me and my wife at the time were newlyweds. I woke up that morning and had that fresh new love feeling for several hours and then it just vanished and I went back to normal. It was an incredibly strange phenomenon to say the least.

[Daisydooks]

Using the excuse that you aren't happy and are cheating and you're the victim... is bull. Sorry, we all have choices. You may be a victim in your marriage. Leave the marriage. You're an adult. It doesnt give someone the go ahead to have an EMR because they are miserable. It fixes nothing anyway. If anything, it makes your abuser really mad and gives them a hand up. 

 

Just another cheaters way of saying "woe is me. Pity me even though I'm a cheater." Its not an excuse to cheat. You have other choices.