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On and off again affair for almost 15 years


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I'm not quite sure where to start this. I've been part of a affair with an old  AP. 

 

I don't know what to do any more.

I'm gonna start at the start, this might be long, because there's a lot that I consider important (but probably isn't). And my head isn't really in the clearest of places right now.

 

It all stared during the summer of my senior year of high school I was 18. My dad was able to get me a summer job with his company. After a couple of weeks I would meet my AP (Mike). He was about 34 at the time and married, he still is. From the start he paid extra attention and would flirt with me whenever he got the chance. Before the summer was over we kind of stared dating and sleeping with each other. We continued see each other for about 4 years. At first I really did love mike but I realized he could never be mine so our relationship become more like fwb kind of thing. Whenever he had a business trip or a solo vacation he would fly me out so we could spend time together. Towards the end I no longer felt any romantic feeling towards mike but I still cared for him as a friend. The affair stopped for the first time when my then boyfriend (now husband) and I started getting serious and we agreed to become exclusive to with other each. 

 

My boyfriend (now husband) I’m start calling me Sam for now. Sam and I continued to date for 3 years. Around year one we started living together. We both always had a very strong physical and emotional connection. We got to the point where we talked about getting married to each other. Around this time my husband decided he wanted to go to law school. I was very supportive until he told me the school’s he wanted  to attend was in the west coast. I talked to him and begged him to reconsider and maybe attend a school that was closer. He eventually agreed but still went to a school that was about 7 hours away. We got engaged before he left. We tried the doing long distance relationship. We both tried our best to make it work, the both of us had to much going on. At times we would go whole weeks without taking to one another. Through out that year we only saw each other once during his winter break. That summer I made plans for to spend time together and hopefully reconnect. Then a week before he’s supposed to come back home for the summer, he drops the news that he was given a summer clerkship and he wasn’t going to be able to return home for summer. This caused an argument between us which lead to us breaking up. 

 

After we broke up I was heart broken, I was completely blindsided. I knew we were going through our problems but I always held the belief we would work through it together. I went through tough time because of the break up. I really let my self go, stopped eating right, going to gym and stopped caring about my job. I didn’t care about anything at that point. This went on for a couple of months. I kind of snapped out of it once I was fired because of my poor performance. After I was fired I was I needed of a job a reach out too multiple people that could help, one of them was Mike. Mike helped me get a new job with in a couple of weeks. Mike and I work in the same field. Mike and I continued you to talk and eventually we restarted the affair. Mike was a major reason why I was able to get my life back together after the break up. 

 

I continued my affair with mike and I would also date other guys. Mike always knew about me dating and was okay with it, since he himself was still married. Mike knew I wanted to be married and have a family of my own someday and with him I could never have that. About 3 years after break up I would run into Sam sister at a rave concerts. We reconnected and exchanged information, she would end up inviting me to her graduation party she was having. At first I was hesitant about going cause I knew Sam would also be their. A few days before the party Sam sister sent me a message through Facebook asking me if I would be going to her party, she convinced that I should go. During the party I did see Sam. Before that I hadn’t seen or heard anything about him. At the time he had no social media or anything. So he kind of just disappeared from my life. During the party I found out he finished law school and he moved back. We continued talking after on somewhat regularly. A month after the party we agreed to meet for drinks. After that night Sam and I started dating again. Mike was not happy that I was seeing Sam again because of what happened the first time and he didn’t want me to get hurt again. Regardless I continued to see Sam and stopped seeing Mike but Mike and I remained friends. Sam and I would eventually get married. 

 

So that’s the back story. Now for what’s  currently happening. 

 

Sam and I have been married for 8 years. We have 3 kids together 2 boys and 1 girl all 3 under 5. For most part we have had a good marriage until recently. Everything was almost as prefect as can be. The only problem we ever had was my husband long hours. He worked a lot before we started dating, I knew that but I worked a lot too. I always thought it was ok because he always made time for me. Everything changed after we had our last child. He stared working more then he already was. He was barely home. Most days he doesn’t come home till 8 or 9 pm and 4 pm on the weekends. I stared to feel like a single mom going to get-togethers without him, always for the same, tired reason that he has to work.

 

We fight about it, a lot. I really wanted be able to love and support him but I always get that disappointed feeling in pit of my stomach when I get Text that he’ll be home after 9 pm because he wants to stay and finish work. Says he loves me and the kids and we are his main priority regardless of how much or little time we spend together. But I feel neglected and wonder if he really means it when he says he loves me because he barely touches me anymore. He rarely wants to have sex anymore. I’m lucky to have it once a month. 

 

During a business conference I and mike attended last February. I made my biggest mistake. Since mike was also at conference we decided to have dinner and drinks together. I don’t if it was the vibe I was putting out or something but that night mike was very flirty and touchy. He’s never acted like while I’ve been married. Either way I felt nice to finally be wanted that I let things go to far and I didn’t stop when I should’ve. Mike and I slept together that night. After that night I told mike that this couldn’t happen again. I tried to to cut him out of my life completely and I did for a few months. Around May my husband and I got into a serious fight about lack time we were spending together. It was one of the worst fight we’ve had. It was the first time he didn’t sleep in our bedroom. I don’t know why but that same night I text mike. That night we restarted the emotional part of the affair and a few weeks later we went all that way again. I’ve continued the affair for a couple of now.

 

Yes, I know I am in the wrong. Yes, I do feel guilt about it. But here's where the torn part comes in as much as I hate to say it, this whole affair has been so good for my marriage. My husband and I no longer fight. I’m happy and he seems to be as well. So, what the hell am I supposed to do when I genuinely don't want to stop, yet know the consequences could be devastating for everyone involved me, my husband and kids not to mention the whirlwind of emotions I am feeling the guilt, the betrayal, the justification for my bad actions the potential messy divorce that could destroy my kids. 

Sorry I didn’t mean for it to so long. I can understand if you don’t want to read all that.

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9 hours ago, Carly_Rey88 said:

We fight about it, a lot. I really wanted be able to love and support him but I always get that disappointed. I feel neglected. He rarely wants to have sex anymore. 

 

Around May my husband and I got into a serious fight about lack time we were spending together. It was one of the worst fight we’ve had. It was the first time he didn’t sleep in our bedroom.

 

I hate to say it, this whole affair has been so good for my marriage. My husband and I no longer fight. 


Really? Your affair is good for your marriage?

 

I think your affair does nothing more than a distraction. It give you warm and cozy feelings when you reach out to your affair partner, or have sex with him. It gives you something else to focus on, distracting you from the loneliness and unhappiness in your marriage. It’s nothing more than a bandaid for your marriage. 

 

Carly, at some point you are going to have to get real about your marriage. If it’s not a good and happy marriage, you will need to deal with that.
 

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11 hours ago, Carly_Rey88 said:

My husband and I no longer fight.

 

Maybe because you both have just resigned yourself to being life partners and co-parents.  You get distraction and stimulation from your affair.  Maybe your husband is doing the same.  Neither of you let yourselves think too deeply about things most of the time.  

 

But sometimes - like now - it surfaces in your mind and you know the situation is messed up.  

 

Some people live like that for years.  Your choice.  

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Bittersweetie

I am a MW who had an affair. It was, by far, the worst choice I ever made. I have many things I could say to you but I will start with this.

 
In the aftermath of my affair and d-day, I realized that all marriages have ups and downs. Amazing times and really crappy times. When I started my affair, we were in a crappy time. One of my many errors was not trying to understand if the crappy time was temporary or permanent. My thoughts were, "it's like this now, it will be like this forever."
 
And instead of facing the issues head on, I took the coward's way out and tried to make myself feel better through an affair. All it did was make everything worse, especially after d-day. My H said to me at one point something like, "you asking me for a divorce wouldn't have hurt as much as this does." 
 
But I justified my choices by doing mental gymnastics in my head in order to make everything ok. I knew what I was doing was wrong but I told myself things so that I felt okay about it. Just like you are doing: saying your marriage is better now, your husband is happier now. Those are just things you are telling yourself in order to justify your poor and selfish choices.
 
You are at a crossroads. You can choose to live honestly and authentically or you can keep doing what you're doing. What kind of person do you want to be? What kind of person do you want to model for your children? Choosing honesty is not an easy road, especially after engaging in an affair, but I will say that I am much happier and content now than I ever was in my affair (and my life is far from perfect). My H knows everything and yes it was terrifying, but it gave him the truth of his own life and allowed him to make his own choices based on reality.
 
So who do you want to be? Think about that then start taking steps toward that person. Good luck.
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It’s sad, with three children under five, that you find yourself in this predicament. It’s easy to lose sight of your marriage when you are working hard and trying to raise young children. Your coping strategy - and to be fair you have used this affair as a coping strategy for your entire adult life - is not going to serve you at a certain point. I think you recognize that, which is why you are here asking the question. Perhaps counselling is in order - it’s going to take some work to get your marriage back on track (your children deserve that, before you throw away what has otherwise been a good marriage/family). It’s also going to take some work for you to develop a different coping strategy as you deal with the stress of life and family life.

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Bittersweetie
3 hours ago, BaileyB said:

It’s sad, with three children under five, that you find yourself in this predicament. It’s easy to lose sight of your marriage when you are working hard and trying to raise young children. Your coping strategy - and to be fair you have used this affair as a coping strategy for your entire adult life - is not going to serve you at a certain point. I think you recognize that, which is why you are here asking the question. Perhaps counselling is in order - it’s going to take some work to get your marriage back on track (your children deserve that, before you throw away what has otherwise been a good marriage/family). It’s also going to take some work for you to develop a different coping strategy as you deal with the stress of life and family life.

 

Yes, Bailey is right here in regards to you using this affair as a coping skill. My coping skills were selfish and self-centered behaviors and thinking that escalated over time into an affair. I did have to learn new coping skills and make sure to default to them rather than old ones. Even now, ten years past d-day, I find myself sometimes wanting to use old coping skills during tough times (not affairs, but selfish behaviors) and I have to make a conscious choice to use a healthier one. 

 

Counseling would be a good choice...to examine why you think this behavior is okay, why you keep turning to this MM who you have no future with. 

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16 hours ago, Carly_Rey88 said:

 But I feel neglected and wonder if he really means it when he says he loves me because he barely touches me anymore. He rarely wants to have sex anymore. I’m lucky to have it once a month.

 

I don't have answers to all your questions. Generally my advice to those in affairs is that they end them. Affairs sometimes cause major problems, some of which you've alluded to at the end of your post. However, what's done is done. If there is a D-day (on either side) it may cause a real mess.

 

It seems like you're not having your needs met in your marriage. This bears discussion with your H (which it sounds like you've been trying to have - the fights you mention). In theory, the best thing to do is work to repair your marriage. However that might not be possible if he refuses to work less. In the meantime, you've been using the affair in part to make your unhappy married life more tolerable (not that uncommon apparently).

 

At sex once/month I question how he's getting HIS needs met. You should consider trying to investigate whether he's having an affair, e.g. at work, if that's possible.

 

I don't like to suggest divorce. That said, if you simply cannot get your needs met in the marriage due to difficult-to-change parameters like work hours, it may be something you have to consider.

 

Not seeing lots of easy answers here. Affairs are time bombs, though - something to be aware of...

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If you aren't getting the attention and sex you need from your husband perhaps you need to tell him this and if there is no improvement - divorce.  It seems that every time you feel needy you go to another man to solve the problem.  I know that attorneys work long hours but as someone else said, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if he isn't involved in his own affair and that is why he's never around.  I use to date a very busy attorney but he always made time and dates for me.  Talk to your husband as he may agree to an open marriage.

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Beentheretoooften

Hi Carly,  most here will give you the same advice.  You can go to any thread and essentially it’s the same.  It’s great advice for most.  Most here have been devasted. Most have not recovered fully.   I doubt that anyone that was in an affair has healed 100%.  Just does not happen.  The beginning of your story is extremely similar to mine in so so many ways.  I have to tell you, you will not get over mm ever. You just won’t.  The history is too long, your future will be confusing.  I believe that once in an affair, everyone is  changed how the rest of their life will go.  And it will be extremely difficult to be truly happy.   But it’s not all bad.  Sure, you’ll get a few people who say they are healed and living better than ever.  But the percent is small. Probably some exaggerate on how healed they are.  The problem is, if you end the Affair it’ll suck. No contact Blowz.  It does get easier with time, but mm will always always be on your mind.  That cannot be argued.  A year from now, 5, 15+.  So get used to it.   If you leave for mm, well, then you’re screwed as well, because that would be awesome at first, but then, eventually will crash and burn.   A few percent of those actually make it 5 years or more and that is bad odds. So, against the majority of what you’ll here, I would continue what you have.  Shockingly enough, I would.   Because once this is over, you’ll end up with one of the two scenarios from above.   They’ll say your a cake eater, I say, however you look at it is how it is.   He makes your life easier now, he understands.   Keep doing what you’re doing, if it is working for you, put off the inevitable for now.  People will fire away likely, but it’s your life and your decision. At this point, the firestorm is coming.   I understand and can relate to your LTA so well.  Understand completely how you feel and what you are thinking. If it were less time, I’d agree with the masses on here, but not your situation.  

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This is a perfect example of what I'm always talking about around here. This affair has nothing to do with the state of your marriage.  You were involved with this guy before your husband was ever in the picture and you've never stopped.   Blaming the marriage and your husband is a really poor attempt to not take responsibility.  

 

Why dont you just get divorced? I mean you've never had a real marriage,  and I suspect that you sabotage your marriage when your longing to spend time with your AP. As you admitted,  your husband has always worked long hours, that means also during the  "happy times".

 

I'm not sure what you're looking for, but whatever it is starts with you owning that's it has nothing to do with your husband his work schedule or any arguments you may have manufactured to open the door to spend time with your REAL partner. 

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On 12/15/2019 at 11:34 PM, Carly_Rey88 said:

 

 

Yes, I know I am in the wrong. Yes, I do feel guilt about it. But here's where the torn part comes in as much as I hate to say it, this whole affair has been so good for my marriage. My husband and I no longer fight. I’m happy and he seems to be as well. So, what the hell am I supposed to do when I genuinely don't want to stop, yet know the consequences could be devastating for everyone involved me, my husband and kids not to mention the whirlwind of emotions I am feeling the guilt, the betrayal, the justification for my bad actions the potential messy divorce that could destroy my kids. 

Sorry I didn’t mean for it to so long. I can understand if you don’t want to read all that.

 

hi.

 

um, i can relate to you in that every time i had a conflict with my relationship... and due to an ongoing lack of attention, i would constantly go back and forth with my AP. 

The point is, i understand how you feel... my relationship improved short term b/c suddenly the thing that was missing, was fulfilled by the AP.

 

But what you need to understand is that it's an illusion. People who say they're happy in their marriage and with the affair, somehow the fight stops and the relationship improves... it isn't b/c the relationship is a good one, it's b/c another person is fulfilling your needs.

 

so let me put into a numbering system...

 

1) Mike fulfills the attention part of you that's always existed. Even before Mike, you seem to be highly dependent on your relationship. that's one of the reasons you n ur future hub broke up, b/c he couldn't give you the time you needed to feel like you were loved. May be one of your primary love languages. With the lack of quality time with your hub, you felt unloved. Vulnerable. Mike took advantage of you. Yes, you made your own decision to cheat and thats on you too. Also, this can't last. Eventually, you'll gonna slowly fall for Mike b/c isn't your hub that's giving you the attention you seek, it's Mike. You may not realize it now, but it will most likely happen. Then you're screwed.

 

2) what you feel right now, isn't real. the emotions are real, but it's a fantasy. Your reality is a marriage that is unfulfilling b/c your hub isn't giving you time. Mike on the other hand, will. Not b/c he loves you, b/c you're good sex. He obviously isn't getting something in his own marriage hence why you're good for him. But this isn't a relationship, it's a short term self destructive action on your part. Even if you divorce your hub, your reality with Mike isn't real. It's fantasy. 

 

3) This isn't good for your marriage; you're only destroying it slowly. This is a rationalization you've come up with to justify the affair. I did the same and it destroyed not just my relationship, but all my concepts of love and feelings and it destroyed me; it literally broke me down to the very core.

 

I realize you feel Mike saved you once upon a time, but in reality, he's selfish too. He helps you only so long as you benefit him. That's the truth. I had a 12yr affair and i thought she genuinely cared about me. and i'm pretty sure she convinced herself she did too. But in the end, she left me for someone who made her feel better than me. 

 

What's the right thing to do?

 

You need to:

 

1) figure out if you want to keep your marriage or not?

 

2) IF you want to keep your marriage, talk to you husband and confess the affair and REALLY talk to him about what you;ve been going thru, why you had the affair, what is missing from the marriage, get couples counseling so you two can work this thru.

 

3) IF you DON"T want the keep the marriage.... keep up the affair... that is prob the one sure thing that will destroy your marriage. Even if your hub NEVER finds out, which is rare, but possible, it will destroy any connection you have with him, b/c over time, he won't recognize you anymore or you him, b/c you've been connecting with Mike....

 

so short term, it might feel like it's a good thing, but long term... you are pretty much digging your marriage into a grave.

 

That's the truth. 

 

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Beentheretoooften

2BGA, I love all your posts and all your views.   There a certain ones I go back and read when I’m not feeling well.   
much of what you say is true.  I believe that Mike actually loves her.  I feel like I read that whether the A is in full swing, or they were apart, he has been there for her regardless of the sex.  The LTA’s I feel belong in a separate category.   Mike is no more or less selfish than Carly.  You could make the case that Carly is more based on the A only going when she wants it.  Carly, I’m not saying this is a negative way at all, mind you.    I think for the short term, she should continue the A, especially if she thinks its keeping her M together.   She has some time to figure it out, because at the end of the day it’s gonna be a huge mess.    Furthermore, I would not disclose the A.   Nope.  No chance.  The M is in deeeep trouble, disclosing it in this scenario either ends it immediately, or if it doesn’t, it will never be the same. Although you can make an argument that both of those things would happen anyway.   2BGA, you know the longer these things go, you can’t turn back.   She’s 15+ years in. Started at 18 years old??  She’s hooked on Mike.    

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On 12/18/2019 at 10:25 AM, DKT3 said:

This is a perfect example of what I'm always talking about around here. This affair has nothing to do with the state of your marriage.  You were involved with this guy before your husband was ever in the picture and you've never stopped.   Blaming the marriage and your husband is a really poor attempt to not take responsibility.  

 

Why dont you just get divorced? I mean you've never had a real marriage,  and I suspect that you sabotage your marriage when your longing to spend time with your AP. As you admitted,  your husband has always worked long hours, that means also during the  "happy times".

 

I'm not sure what you're looking for, but whatever it is starts with you owning that's it has nothing to do with your husband his work schedule or any arguments you may have manufactured to open the door to spend time with your REAL partner. 

Really DKT has hit it quite well.  Your actions speak volumes to your attitude towards your BS as well as you ur children. You are letting them be at risk for STDs from your AP. Risking your future for sex. Do you believe when you get caught that you can talk your way at out and remain with your family. You state AP will never make happy families with you. Just do the right thing and tell BS. He deserves to be in a loving committed relationship not a person who has been in a on and off again affair for the last 15 years. It won’t end well. Please think of him 

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Beentheretoooften

Her BS deserves to be in a loving committed relationship.  Hmmm, yet he’s never around.  One would think if he were home more and chipped in that she could have given him that.    

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15 minutes ago, Beentheretoooften said:

Her BS deserves to be in a loving committed relationship.  Hmmm, yet he’s never around.  One would think if he were home more and chipped in that she could have given him that.    

So we're blaming him for something that was going on long before she met him.

 

Besides she admitted his WORK schedule (not like he is running around with other women or anything) wasn't an issue for her before.  

 

I'm amazed how people can find a way to emphasize with someone who is 100% wrong. 

 

I've seen situations where you think man he/she should not have cheated but I get it. That's not the case here. Hard to imagine she has ever been really committed when she has never cut this guy out of her life..he has been around thier entire relationship.  That's no marriage,  her husband has never been more then a placeholder. 

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IF you decide to tell, go in with eyes open. The response might be a divorce, so you may wish to consider contacting a family attorney to find out what a divorce might look like. Also In a few US states there are there laws impacting divorce settlements when infidelity is involved. In a few US states there are even laws allowing the betrayed spouse to sue the affair partner for damages. Possibly there are laws like this in some other regions as well.

 

Not saying you shouldn't tell, just be prepared for a wide range of possible reactions and possible consequences and have a plan in place for contingencies if you do.

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I agree DK3.  I can't imagine people advising her to continue cheating on her husband and kids.  Yes the kids are involved whether you want to admit it or not.  The time you spend thinking about OM and seeing him takes your attention away from your family.  What does this show them about their mom?  People fall in love with other people and it's sad but there is a right and respectful way to end it and live your life.  Cheating and lying is not it.  You knew marrying an attorney was going to be long hours on his part but I imagine his hard work affords you a nice lifestyle that you probably don't want to give up.  It's easier to take what your husband gives and continue to cheat rather than be honest and own your situation.  I hope you find the courage soon to reveal your truth before it all blows up in your face.

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Beentheretoooften

@DKT3 I didn’t mean to assign blame.  I agree she has never cut him out, and that is a mistake if she wants husband, family etc.    They were likely doomed from the start after the initial fun of marriage and kids was over.   The one that cheats is the one to blame, and it’s always the easy way out.  And many people take that route.  There is more to this story obviously.   For her rn, this is what works.  He hasn’t helped the situation.   I wonder if she has tried talking to him for real.   I’d love to hear from her 

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I suspect she is gone..

 

I disagree,  I dont see the husband having any fault here for one simple reason,  he never had a wife. Her affair partner has always been her primary partner and her husband was simply there to complete her desire for a family.  

 

I agree that it was a relationship doomed from the start. 

 

Rather evidence is there is a pattern of her know the situation then using that situation as an excuse to justify her affair. 

 

I just dont understand why she is married. Why put an innocent person into her mess? 

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Beentheretoooften

I think for selfish reasons she wanted children.  I think that’s it.  A single woman at 18 that starts as an OW, for that long...it’s just almost impossible for them to recover fully.   Being an OW at 18 to a 34 year old can’t be healthy long term.  Throw in such an extended time, she has no chance.   I’m not surprised at where the M is, and not surprised at the A.   I think everyone on here knows what will eventually happen.   It will not be good.  That’s my only reason of saying she should enjoy these last months, years etc. selfish, sure, but hasn’t she been the entire time??   How could she be expected to change who she is overnight.   I feel awful for her.  Mike, likely, is the only one that could help her.  

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Yeah, at 18 she was in above her head,  and many of the poor decisions she made has been a direct result of that. She was preyed upon and in Stockholm syndrome style she is stuck.  I do have an issue with her not only involving another man but having three children with him and now here trying to make him out to be the bad guy. In that I have no empathy. 

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Beentheretoooften

Ok, the only benefit of the doubt I can give her is maybe she didn’t know that she would end up keeping the affair.  I’m sure she didn’t go into the marriage telling herself she would continue it.  But when the going got tough, well, we see what happens.  She’s not the first and certainly will not be the last.  Texhnically, she could stop the affair, not tell him, and see if she can work it out.   I understand the benefits of telling, but each case is different, with this one i would strongly urge her to not tell.  She can still salvage, but too many times we see it not.   There is no doubt she absolutely feels helpless and alone.  I feel for all involved.  

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I dont feel bad for her in the slightest as it pertains to the marriage.  She created that situation.  Complaining about being a single mother but question,  who taking care of her three kids while she is sneaking off with her MM? Flying all over the place? 

 

There is no benefit of doubt here. She pulled an innocent person into her affair,  that's the bottom line,  the situation is flipside,  usually the affair interrupts the marriage, in this case the marriage interrupts the affair.  I wonder if she even loves her husband...honestly. 

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Indeed, I think it is terrible that a 34 year old man essentially took advantage of a very young girl in this way. It’s truly shameful. 
 

No doubt, her knowledge of what a “healthy relationship” is has likely been very affected by this experience. 
 

That said, She chose to enter another relationship, marry the man, and have three children with him. And with that decision, there should be no going back to an old affair partner. Her husband and her children deserve more from their wife and mother. 
 

And now, she needs to get her act together because her affair partner is not going to solve her problems. Tough love, but a sad reality.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Currently in a similar situation. The only difference is that we’re not married yet and got no kids. 
I do love my partner but yeah the AP is someone who fills that void. 
 

Someone once told me that I maybe one who needs to feel loved constantly and by feeling loved that means constant attention. Even if they spent hours with you, if they can’t make you feel loved then they will just be wasting their time because you’ll still feel unloved.

 

Anyways I do think that there is something wrong with you and your husband’s relationship. You are still in adjustment phase and never got the chance to work through it. Who knows maybe your husband is also doing the same....

Either way you two really need to talk. Maybe spend a day just going out on a date?

My MM says that he and his wife used to fight because of his busy schedule but eventually they were able to work on it... he do still seem so in love with her. Always excited to be with her and all. They go on dates every Sunday and whenever they can.

 

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