How did I end up in this mess

[Irn-bru]

31 minutes ago, LilKatKat said:

Not to thread jack here but Irn-bru, you say he would move heaven and earth to be with her if he truly loved her. You are now free to do so with your OW but won't yet you profess to have loved her. I think the OP needs to know and understand that. I now believe that as much as the MM may care about the OW at the heart of it, it isn't love and he doesn't respect her the way a man should to someone he wants to commit to because after all, she doesn't deserve respect as she will sleep with a married man. Men do see things differently from women. Women try to understand what men are going through in determining whether to leave. Men seem to see it as more black and white - she helped me cheat so she isn't worthy of commitment. 

 

I had very serious intentions to be with her and starting a life with her. Nothing I said was a lie. Over time I realized me and the OW weren’t as compatible as needed to start a life. The more time you spend with someone, the more you find out and see the cracks appear. 

[PhoenixRising8]

I have no doubt she saw your flaws also but that obviously wasn't enough to make her walk away. Everyone has flaws and even the most compatible of couples have their moments. None of us is perfect. 

[elaine567]

It is a similar situation to that that many women in fwb arrangements find themselves in.
She develops feelings, but he doesn't want to take things further as he has already placed her into the fwb box.
She is someone who will sleep with a guy with no strings attached and that to many men lowers her "value" significantly.
She is fine for sex, for fun and even companionship but in his eyes she will never be real "relationship material".
The OW similarly is put into the OW box, she is someone who will sneak around behind her clueless husband's/bfs back or his innocent wife's back, participate in lying and not turn a hair...
Is that person then seen  as "wife material", not usually as how could he trust her?
Her value as a long term serious prospect is thus significantly reduced.

This is not single dating where one can flit from one man to the next to the next with little penalty within reason and true love exists, this is extra marital sex and the rules are a whole lot different.

[Unhappy fool]

Thank you for your thoughts and opinions,  whilst they are difficult to read I can also see that a lot of them hit the mark and that’s why they are painful.

 

i  also realise that since I’ve found my way onto this forum things must’ve shifted slightly in my thinking.

 

I have had little sleep thinking of the times I’ve been upset, the times he has completely ignored me when I’ve needed him.   Then something pops into my head like a few weeks ago he messaged to say he missed me, we organised a date to meet.  A few hours later he messaged to say he was outside my place of work.  I went outside and got into his car.  He said he just had to see me even if for a few minutes.  It felt wonderful to be held my him again ( he then did want to discuss in detail what we would do next time we met). So I tried to remain positive that he wanted to see me and hold me rather than he’d drive across the city to discuss intimate activities?! ( I did find out afterwards he was driving pretty close by to meet with his bank manager) 
 

I’ve had very little contact with him over the last week- of course he’s preparing for Christmas with his family.  If it hurts this much having reduced contact I’ve no idea how to never speak to or see him again. 

[DKT3]

People in affairs ultimately only love themselves.  Well the way I understand love. Loving someone is selfless,  not this all consuming conditional stuff that is affairs.  You see truly loving someone means wanting what's best for them, no one can reasonably believe an affair is best for anyone,  especially when one has no intention to rectify the situation.  That isnt love.  It's too selfish. 

[mark clemson]

9 hours ago, Unhappy fool said:

 If it hurts this much having reduced contact I’ve no idea how to never speak to or see him again. 

 

I'm certainly not going to judge you for having an affair if your husband so blatantly stepped out on your marriage. Perhaps this started as a "revenge affair" at some level? At any rate, it does seem like both of you perhaps have gotten your fingers burnt with this (as so many people do).

 

You have my sympathy for your distress. When the pain of maintaining the affair becomes too much to bear (it sounds like you're pretty close) then you'll realize that going through the pain of ending it will be worth it to finally have it end. I believe it will help if you are able to go fully NC with the MM.

 

One issue is that if/when you end it, you will then return to your "zombie" marriage which frankly doesn't sounds like much fun at the moment.

 

It sounds like you and your husband never truly reconciled from whatever he did to "try out the single life". Presumably he had some flings or trysts during that time. One thought would be that perhaps now that you've been through this, you and he can possibly reconcile on more "even terms" since you've now had an extra-marital experience. Not sure if that's of interest to you right now (being extremely hung up on this MM) but it may eventually make sense to try.

[elaine567]

9 hours ago, Unhappy fool said:

I’ve had very little contact with him over the last week- of course he’s preparing for Christmas with his family.  If it hurts this much having reduced contact I’ve no idea how to never speak to or see him again. 

You need to get angry, you need to get mad.
 

[DKT3]

38 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

 

 

 

It sounds like you and your husband never truly reconciled from whatever he did to "try out the single life". Presumably he had some flings or trysts during that time. One thought would be that perhaps now that you've been through this, you and he can possibly reconcile on more "even terms" since you've now had an extra-marital experience. Not sure if that's of interest to you right now (being extremely hung up on this MM) but it may eventually make sense to try.

I'm a little confused about this. She mentioned physical issues that took sex off the table in her marriage but it doesn't seem to be accurate since they dont seem to have issues with sex outside of the marriage.  

[Unhappy fool]

My husband has been unable to have sex due to a medical reasons I accepted it for 3 years.  He left to try the single life, got an apartment, was out drink and partying had an emotional thing with someone.  There is no way he can have sex so assume that they’re may have been some other physical stuff going on.

He came back to the house for connivence- he could no longer afford the rent and I earn more than him.  I said he could because of our child.  We merely cohabit. 

[Bittersweetie]

Maybe start to reframe this situation with AP not as a relationship, but as an addiction you have. I say this based on your statements here: heady feelings, devastation, waiting for contact, loss of focus, being upset, etc. You are addicted to how your AP makes you feel, and you walking away will only help you heal and regain your strength...staying will only continue to negatively affect your self-esteem and overall health.

 

Also, I think sometimes we blindingly focus on the AP in order to avoid focusing on our own issues, and it seems like you've had a lot going on in the past few years, especially things with your husband. Again, turning your focus on yourself and your issues will not be easy, but it will be better for your mental and physical health in the long run. Good luck.

[Unhappy fool]

I messaged the MM today I was upset and said things had to change and I was fed up with people walking over me and not being there for me.

 

He phoned and I ended up backing down as I was scared he would go

 

i know I need to walk away as soon as I ended the call I was upset and thought he talked me round just be telling me

how wonderful I am

and how happy I make

him.  I am aware this is pathetic.  I thought If I end it now then there’s no chance to talk about it since he’s off work 

 

he called for literally 40 seconds said happy Christmas I wished him the same and that was that.

 

i know he’s on leave for at least a week- maybe more depending on business needs.   So I cannot contact him until he contacts me.  I’ve no indication of when this will be or even if he will contact me again.  

[BaileyB]

Notice how his “platitudes” and attempts to flatter you were very self focused - you are wonderful and you make “me” very happy...

 

What’s missing from these statements is  any consideration for your feelings or concern for your wellbeing “you are upset, I’m sorry if I have caused you pain.” Also missing, any attempt to ease your pain...

 

You should actually be glad that he did not attempt to future fake - “I’m so sorry. I promise this will get better, I will leave my wife and we will be together.” You should thank him for his honesty, because his intentions and his priorities are crystal clear...

 

You are starting to find your anger. Feed it well, it will help you to end this unhealthy addiction (I like that idea bittersweetie). 

Edited December 23, 2019 by BaileyB

[Unhappy fool]

I’ve been thinking along the same lines:- as in its addictive. When I logically think about it.

 

The hit I get when he messages or calls, the gratification I get if he pays me a compliment or wants to see me.

 

The desperation and sadness I feel when I’ve no contact and I’m thinking of how I could see him/speak with him.  Fixated on what he might be doing

 

I recognise it’s unhealthy, but even though it’s obvious I can’t let go.

I suffer whilst waiting for him and think this has to end.  Then he messages and I’m hooray we are ok. ( I’m well aware this makes me sound like a silly teenager)

 

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Unhappy fool
Phone typos/autocorrect errors

[Bittersweetie]

2 hours ago, Unhappy fool said:

I recognise it’s unhealthy, but even though it’s obvious I can’t let go.

 

I've BTDT. Here's the thing: you say you can't let go, but you are choosing not to let go. You choose to suffer while waiting for him to give you a crumb. You choose to be sad when there's no contact. 

 

Will it be easy to choose a different action when feeling sad/insecure/desperate in regards to MM? No. Of course not. But it can be done, with work and perseverance. Even now, ten years later, I occasionally yearn for the feel-good feeling hit I got from MM. But I have learned that the need for that hit had nothing to do with MM...it had to do with me, what was missing within me. I can now deal with the yearning using healthier, less hurtful coping skills. Chocolate helps too. 😁

 

And please think about the distraction all this drama provides from your "real" life, with your husband etc. I do think that is a big part in this...do you have a counselor you could talk with? Someone to bounce things off of? If not, I have found journaling helpful to get circular thoughts out of my head...I feel like that once something was written down, it took up less space in my head, space I was able to use in a better way. 

[BaileyB]

I think finding a good counsellor should be your New Years resolution... Please don’t let the fact that his wife is a counsellor stop you from doing what is best for yourself. It really is irrelevant, much like the way you say you “can’t” let him go when it is really that you are not ready to let him go... using the excuse that his wife is a counsellor is just another roadblock that you are putting up because you are not ready to do the hard work. Your counsellor will respect confidentiality. Assuming there is more than one counsellor in your town, you should have no cause for concern.

 

If you can’t afford counselling/have no access to counselling services, that’s another thing. I would suggest you keep posting here, there is lots of wisdom and support for you. Many women have done this before...

Edited December 24, 2019 by BaileyB

[Beentheretoooften]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:If you can’t afford counselling/have no access to counselling services, that’s another thing. I would suggest you keep posting here, there is lots of wisdom and support for you. Many women have done this before...

Hi

 most insurances actually cover therapists.  You should easily be able to just pay the co-pay.    

[Unhappy fool]

Whilst I was unable to sleep I wrote him a letter. A letter I shall never send I suspect - or at least without a lot of editing.  
 

I asked why he why he was ok whilst I was broken.  Why he could have  special events /trips away without giving me a thought.  Knowing he cannot or will not contact me whilst he’s away, I can’t understand why he would book 3 weeks travelling knowing we couldn’t talk.  

 

I also went into lots of examples of times when I feel sad and unhappy.  Things he’s said and done to make me feel used and worthless. 
 

There was one occasion just before Easter when he was due to go on a family trip.  I messaged and asked for a call ( I aren’t allowed to phone him). He didn’t call so I sent a message 5-6 hours later  and said I’d miss him but wished him a good time and said I hoped he would return relaxed and refreshed.  He didn’t reply and it really hurt - I knew this would be the last chance to talk for 2 weeks yet he didn’t talk the chance to hear my voice too.

 

When he returned I told him how it made me feel and he shouted at me for the first time.  Told me

how incredibly unattractive it was. He didn’t have to answer to me and I was absolutely pathetic and ridiculous.  He was busy and he had to prioritise.  I was indeed pathetic and asked why he couldn’t have phoned me on the way home/phoned me whilst on the way to the bathroom or even whilst eating lunch if work was so busy.  His reaction upset me so much I’ve never really tackled him about anything once. 
 

the flip side is he can make me feel like the most amazing person in the world. 
 

Sorry this is long again.   I apologise for using this as a opportunity to spill out what is in my head 

[Ellener]

'If I was worth more wouldn’t he treat me as such?' 

 

You need your own self-worth not waiting around for someone else's validation.

 

[BaileyB]

Those who pin your own happiness/self worth on another person are often left disappointed. 

 

He is is taking care of himself and meeting his own needs - focusing on numero uno. The question becomes, why are you not doing the same? 

 

He is under no obligation to make you happy.

 

And , I would argue that a few moments of joy would not make up for the sadness, longing, and pain you feel 99% of the other time.

 

If you want a real relationship, you will need to go and find it. This is not your guy.

[Irn-bru]

6 hours ago, Unhappy fool said:

Whilst I was unable to sleep I wrote him a letter. A letter I shall never send I suspect - or at least without a lot of editing.  
 

I asked why he why he was ok whilst I was broken.  Why he could have  special events /trips away without giving me a thought.  Knowing he cannot or will not contact me whilst he’s away, I can’t understand why he would book 3 weeks travelling knowing we couldn’t talk.  

 

I also went into lots of examples of times when I feel sad and unhappy.  Things he’s said and done to make me feel used and worthless. 
 

There was one occasion just before Easter when he was due to go on a family trip.  I messaged and asked for a call ( I aren’t allowed to phone him). He didn’t call so I sent a message 5-6 hours later  and said I’d miss him but wished him a good time and said I hoped he would return relaxed and refreshed.  He didn’t reply and it really hurt - I knew this would be the last chance to talk for 2 weeks yet he didn’t talk the chance to hear my voice too.

 

When he returned I told him how it made me feel and he shouted at me for the first time.  Told me

how incredibly unattractive it was. He didn’t have to answer to me and I was absolutely pathetic and ridiculous.  He was busy and he had to prioritise.  I was indeed pathetic and asked why he couldn’t have phoned me on the way home/phoned me whilst on the way to the bathroom or even whilst eating lunch if work was so busy.  His reaction upset me so much I’ve never really tackled him about anything once. 
 

the flip side is he can make me feel like the most amazing person in the world. 
 

Sorry this is long again.   I apologise for using this as a opportunity to spill out what is in my head 

 

His treatment of you is not of a compassionate man that loves you or cares about. I know it’s hard for you to see that right now, but from an outsider looking in clearly is. 

 

As a MM in his position, I texted multiple times a day, everyday and talked daily too. I don’t think there was a single day we didn’t at least text each other. 

 

Think of the feelings you go go through when you don’t hear from him for a week or two, it must be very painful. If he loved and cared about you the same way, he’d be feeling it too. Clearly he doesn’t or he would find a way to contact you. Even a quick good morning or goodnight, I’m thinking of you, or miss you. You deserve better.

[elaine567]

Google "intermittent reinforcement"

Quote

INTERMITTENT REINFORCEMENT IN RELATIONSHIPS

What we have to wake up to is that some of us are in relationships that are based on intermittent reinforcement.  In this kind of relationship, the things we need, like love, are only granted inconsistently, unpredictably and occasionally.  But the fact that they are granted occasionally, keeps us hooked.  We are owned by the relationship.  We build up so much despair and starvation that when we get a single scrap, the relief we experience by getting a scrap feels like nirvana and we begin to chase that feeling and do anything we can do to get it.   No matter what, if you are in an intermittent reinforcement relationship, you are in an abusive relationship.  Abuse is usually not the conscious intent, but it is abuse nonetheless.

 

The "push pull" so common in affairs is classic intermittent reinforcement.

Edited December 24, 2019 by elaine567

[BaileyB]

Indeed Elaine. Good point. 

 

Also, consistent reinforcement tends to be more effective at shaping behavior, or establishing a relationship in this case. While inconsistent reinforcement tends to be more effective in maintaining a specific behavior, or relationship. He leaves you hanging, always waiting for that next text/call/visit. It makes it all that more sweet when it comes, making it all that much more addictive.

 

Also, google search the “sunk cost fallacy.” It will provide an answer to your question, “I have waited this long, what happens if I walk away and he decides to leave his wife? Perhaps, if I hold on just a little bit longer...”

[elaine567]

Quote

THE EXPERIMENT: CONTINUOUS AND INTERMITTENT REINFORCEMENT

I want you to imagine that there is a laboratory and in the laboratory, there is a rat in a cage.  The scientists in the lab are studying behavior.  In one corner of the rat cage there is a little lever.  Every time the rat pushes on the lever, a pellet of food comes out.  Needless to say the rat is preoccupied with pushing the lever and getting the pellets that come out every time he pushes the lever.  So, the scientists wonder what will happen if they remove the pellets.  The rat pushes on the lever and eventually realizes it is not going to yield any pellets and so he looses interest with the lever and preoccupies himself with other things. 
What these experiments had in common is that there was a predictable pattern in terms of expectation.  This is called continuous reinforcement.  In the first experiment the pattern was, “I push the lever and I can expect a pellet to come out.”  In the second, the pattern was, “I push the lever and I can expect nothing to come out.”  So the scientists start to wonder what will happen if they make the pattern unpredictable.  What if sometimes (but unpredictably) when the rat pushes the lever, a pellet comes out and sometimes it doesn’t?  They imagined that the rat would become frustrated and eventually lose interest in the lever.  In fact the opposite happened.  In this experiment again and again, each rat became absolutely anxiously obsessed with the lever and neglected all of its other grooming habits and started deteriorating.  The rat was engaged in an intermittent reinforcement experiment.  And the intermittent reinforcement had created an addiction.  

 

[Unhappy fool]

I shall try use the no contact time to do some serious thinking.  I shall also research into the ‘sunk cost’ and reinforcement articles.  

 

one of the many valid points is that if he missed me he’d find a way to contact-  it’s one of the really hurtful things.  We message all day yet when he’s off work I no longer exist.   When I once mentioned if he ever wanted to contact me on a Sunday, he said he couldn’t as the kids tend to play on his phone, he doesn’t carry it around and it’s left freely on the table so if I were to reply/be a delay in my reply delivering his kids would see.

 

 

The articles are very helpful and  The oh yes that makes sense ... oh shoot this is me it’s taking about.  
 

I am an adult with a responsible job. I care for my elderly parents and my child, yet I can’t be grown up enough to say I aren’t tolerating this.  I am worth more - as the little voice in my head says no you’re not, old and washed up who would want you.  You’re lucky he’s shown even a passing interest 
 

 

[BaileyB]

You are worth more than he is offering - never doubt that. 

 

But, nothing will improve for you until you actually start to believe that. 

 

I am of your age age and I was single for a long time. I have since met the most wonderful man - we moved in together this fall and we are building your own home. I have never been happier and it could happen for you too - but not if you are putting all your emotional energy into a married man and a relationship that is going nowhere.

 

Again, sticking with the devil you know is not a good plan for long term happiness... If you want a happy relationship, you will need to go and find it...

Edited December 24, 2019 by BaileyB