How did I end up in this mess

[elaine567]

He is under no obligation to make the OP happy, as he has learned whether happy or not she will still give him sex.

[Hip Pocket]

On 12/31/2019 at 11:01 AM, Daisydooks said:

Know your place, girl. You dont get to demand attention. You dont get to expect anything. The sooner you accept that truth, the less this A will be appealing to you. You dont get to expect or demand. You get to wait and wonder. That's your job

Unhappy fool, do not listen to advice from people who have not enjoyed nor learned how to navigate in a long term EMR. Your “place” is exactly where you want to be. You have so much more power than you know, you just haven’t learned it yet or used it. You do get to demand whatever you want, whatever your needs are, not only in this R but every R. It is NOT your job to wait and wonder, don’t listen to this rubbish! 
 

I’ve read through most of this thread and have only seen posters who are not in EMRs “support” you. They can post all they want, but please only take advice from those who have overcome the first confusing years of an EMR. Yes they can feel heady, this is how all love is felt in the beginning, even for MP not just EMRs. It’s not an addiction, it’s limerence. It does wear off and you will come to enjoy love in a more logical and stable way in the future if you choose to stay with this guy. And you’ll also be in a better place to decide if he’s good enough for you at that point. You can reassess your feelings at any time, that’s the beauty of not being locked into a M, so remember that because you can act on that reassessment whereas being M it’s more difficult to. 

You two need to set up some ground rules that will make you both happy. If he can’t be agreeable on negotiating a path forward that makes you both happy then ease back a bit. Don’t meet him the next time he calls. He’ll eventually come back with a compromise. Any smart man knows how to negotiate a good deal. If he doesn’t bring something to the table then you know you are dealing with someone who can’t compromise and isn’t good relationship material. For anyone, including his BW. 
 

Stay strong UF, and perhaps direct your posts to OP/AP who have BTDT and are happy doing it. 

[Prudence V]

3 minutes ago, Pocket said:

Your “place” is exactly where you want to be. You have so much more power than you know, you just haven’t learned it yet or used it. You do get to demand whatever you want, whatever your needs are, not only in this R but every R. It is NOT your job to wait and wonder, don’t listen to this rubbish!

Exactly! This claiming OW just have to hang about at MM’s convenience, accepting scraps, are doing it wrong, and it’s little wonder their As end badly. Those of us who insisted on having it our way? We got it our way (and are still getting it our way). 
 

Which would you prefer? The choice is yours. 

[Hip Pocket]

1 minute ago, Prudence V said:

Exactly! This claiming OW just have to hang about at MM’s convenience, accepting scraps, are doing it wrong, and it’s little wonder their As end badly. Those of us who insisted on having it our way? We got it our way (and are still getting it our way). 
 

Which would you prefer? The choice is yours. 

So true. Any R, whether dating, M, or EMR can be shaped and molded by the two people in it. There is no rule book that says an EMR has to be a certain way. It’s called exercising your voice. 

[Hip Pocket]

On 1/5/2020 at 10:39 AM, Unhappy fool said:

I guess I worry that if I ignore him he will forget me.  Or he won’t even notice I’ve not replied, get on with his day.

I know I can’t make him love me nor should I want to ( but sadly I do, I do want him to love me, why am I not good enough) I aren’t sure I am worth love.

During our last messages I told him that I’d upset myself and visited the site where my brother had his accident, not sure why.  I said I wanted someone to hold me and tell me it’d be ok, to hold my hand and say come on you have  seen it now let’s go home.  I said as I sat at the road side I had the urge to call him but knew I couldn’t.  He didn’t say anything- nothing at all.  To fill the silence I ended up saying sorry I’m being silly ignore me.

I’ve know him for 20+ years, He was always so kind and considerate, thoughtful and such a lovely man.  He often says how others take advantage of his good nature.  Not sure when he changed towards me  

Is it possible that he’s not used to having an EMR and just needs to learn how to navigate within its parameters? He’s new at this too and he also has a learning curve. Give it some time. Keep communicating about it and eventually you two will iron some things out. 

[Hip Pocket]

On 1/6/2020 at 10:39 AM, Bittersweetie said:

UF, like I asked, what is your end goal? Or, how do you see your life looking in six months, or a year? 

I'm not asking to be annoying. You are so caught up in the now, thinking about these questions allow you to take a step back and look at the overall picture of your life. Then, when you can see how you want things to look, you can start taking small steps in that direction.

I know it's hard...I remember living from one email/chat/text to the other...and looking back, frankly it was a terrible way to live. So step back and think about, how do you want your life to look, regardless of MM, regardless of your H? Think about it.

Why does she have to have an end goal right now? I wouldn’t even ask my daughter who’s fallen in love with her boyfriend what her end goal is because it’s too heady right now. Once these hormones wear off then it would be a good time to ask about future goals.

[BlindsidedTwice]

I think former OWs here are trying to save her from the incredible pain that we've gone through. I'm sure some people get out of affairs unscathed but I think most of us are damaged forever. 

Being someone's second, third, fourth, or even tenth priority will eventually sink self-esteem. Maybe we can help OP out before hers hits rock bottom. 

[Hip Pocket]

39 minutes ago, BlindsidedTwice said:

I think former OWs here are trying to save her from the incredible pain that we've gone through. I'm sure some people get out of affairs unscathed but I think most of us are damaged forever. 

Being someone's second, third, fourth, or even tenth priority will eventually sink self-esteem. Maybe we can help OP out before hers hits rock bottom. 

All love is racked with incredible pain; puppy love, dating love, marital love, familial love, and affair love. Nobody on the planet gets out of love unscathed. The true gift is love and if we are lucky enough to experience it then we know it is worth any pain that comes with it. 
 

Regarding self-esteem, she’s not going to repair that in a M or an EMR or a anywhere else. It will come from working on herself. IC would be good for her. 

[Bittersweetie]

1 hour ago, Pocket said:

Why does she have to have an end goal right now? I wouldn’t even ask my daughter who’s fallen in love with her boyfriend what her end goal is because it’s too heady right now. Once these hormones wear off then it would be a good time to ask about future goals.

Maybe end goal was not the right phrase to use here. UF does not seem happy right now, and seems very confused, understandably so. I'm suggesting UF step back to look at the bigger picture because that might allow her to see where she wants to go moving forward. For example, UF herself has admitted her self-esteem is not good. She can step back and figure out how to strengthen her self-esteem, whether through IC or something else. Personally, I feel if she can strengthen her self-esteem, it may help her in deciding how to navigate her MM and her H. You mentioned earlier about having power, and right now UF is not holding her power. I'm encouraging her to take her own power by asking her to think about what she wants from life and her relationships and take steps to make that happen. I don't think that is a bad thing to ask, especially to a married middle aged woman currently in an EMR. I want her to be the person she wants to be, so maybe she needs to take the time to figure out who that is. 

[Unhappy fool]

So MM turned up at my office.  He said he’d missed me so much he had to see me and would wait for me to be free for 5 minutes. 

I went outside and he told me he’d missed me terribly and just had to see me.  That he needed to hold me in his arms again  and his feelings for me ‘weren’t just sex’. I said it feels like it sometimes.  It was a brief chat as I did have get back to my office. He told me he wonderful he thinks I am. How I make him happy and his days better. 

The pull from him is incredible.

I have spoken with my husband and have said maybe it’s not best for either of us to live together to co-parent that we both need the chance of meeting someone/being happy.  He is not keen at all to move out- but since I essentially financially support him I suspect that has a role to play.

We have access to an employee’s counselling service at my place of work- I’ve sent the email to enquire as to how it works/how to access the service.  My self esteem needs massive work-  I was chatting to a colleague and was saying I’d just apologise to make a situation easier ( work related item) she was amazing I’d take the responsibility for someone else’s error.  Made me realise how often I say sorry/apologise immediately even if I’ve not done anything wrong.

I’ve no idea who I am, except and emotional mess.  I need inner peace as I am struggling to accept what I’ve become and the way forward. 

[2BGoodAgain]

34 minutes ago, Unhappy fool said:

So MM turned up at my office.  He said he’d missed me so much he had to see me and would wait for me to be free for 5 minutes. 

I went outside and he told me he’d missed me terribly and just had to see me.  That he needed to hold me in his arms again  and his feelings for me ‘weren’t just sex’. I said it feels like it sometimes.  It was a brief chat as I did have get back to my office. He told me he wonderful he thinks I am. How I make him happy and his days better. 

The pull from him is incredible.

I have spoken with my husband and have said maybe it’s not best for either of us to live together to co-parent that we both need the chance of meeting someone/being happy.  He is not keen at all to move out- but since I essentially financially support him I suspect that has a role to play.

We have access to an employee’s counselling service at my place of work- I’ve sent the email to enquire as to how it works/how to access the service.  My self esteem needs massive work-  I was chatting to a colleague and was saying I’d just apologise to make a situation easier ( work related item) she was amazing I’d take the responsibility for someone else’s error.  Made me realise how often I say sorry/apologise immediately even if I’ve not done anything wrong.

I’ve no idea who I am, except and emotional mess.  I need inner peace as I am struggling to accept what I’ve become and the way forward. 

i think you need separation from both men... if you don't know yourself, you certainly don't know if this new relationship is what you truly want either... instead of jumping from one relationship to another... i highly recommend that while you seek seperation/divorce, etc...

...that you seek counseling to figure yourself out... divorce process takes months to complete, even after you sign the papers... so it'll give you time to figure yourself out... 

if the AP does really care about you, he can wait... not waiting = it's really all about his feeling, his needs, his wants... on his time table... not yours. even if he says it in a way that makes it sound like it's about you.. b/c his actions will reveal his true intent, not his words.... in general... with people.. esp guys... look at their actions... 

good luck to you!

[DKT3]

Encouragement to continue in this affair is akin to convincing someone that the lottery is the answer for their financial future. Most are not equipped to be a plan b. Not everyone can convince themselves that everyone wins in affairs. 

As I've suggested before,  she need to clean up, end her marriage,  end her affair and work on herself, because what's going on now is obviously not working. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Fix spacing

[2BGoodAgain]

11 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

Encouragement to continue in this affair is akin to convincing someone that the lottery is the answer for their financial future. Most are not equipped to be a plan b. Not everyone can convince themselves that everyone wins in affairs. 

As I've suggested before,  she need to clean up, end her marriage,  end her affair and work on herself, because what's going on now is obviously not working. 

Not everyone is there yet.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but if someone approached me in the middle of my 12yr relationship and told me the wise words you did... i wouldn't have listened to it. Then again, there are smarter people around... so they might listen. But it took a catastrophic event to wake me up from my rationalization and self-deceit, to realize what I was doing to myself, the people i loved, and even to the AP herself. 

I've read so many stories on here and so many are so similiar... wild abandonment, great chemistry, drawn to the incredible pull to each other... repeated break ups, get back together, rationalizations, excuses, arguments, fights, emotional ups and downs... how many times have we read the title similar to... "how the F#$@ did i get here???"

the best we can do is give honest warnings/concerns... and help them out when all hell breaks loose... 

then it's really up to them, what next steps they'll do... repeat the same behavior or make a change...

Edited January 9, 2020 by 2BGoodAgain

[Bittersweetie]

1 hour ago, Unhappy fool said:

I have spoken with my husband and have said maybe it’s not best for either of us to live together to co-parent that we both need the chance of meeting someone/being happy.  He is not keen at all to move out- but since I essentially financially support him I suspect that has a role to play.

We have access to an employee’s counselling service at my place of work- I’ve sent the email to enquire as to how it works/how to access the service.  My self esteem needs massive work-  I was chatting to a colleague and was saying I’d just apologise to make a situation easier ( work related item) she was amazing I’d take the responsibility for someone else’s error.  Made me realise how often I say sorry/apologise immediately even if I’ve not done anything wrong.

I’ve no idea who I am, except and emotional mess.  I need inner peace as I am struggling to accept what I’ve become and the way forward. 

These are two great steps toward moving forward. Starting the conversation with your husband, and not only looking into the counseling, but realizing how your self-esteem affects places other than relationships. Sometimes finding the way forward doesn't happen right away, one has to walk out of the forest in order to see the clear sky and figure out which way to go. Good luck.

37 minutes ago, 2BGoodAgain said:

Not everyone is there yet.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but if someone approached me in the middle of my 12yr relationship and told me the wise words you did... i wouldn't have listened to it. Then again, there are smarter people around... so they might listen. But it took a catastrophic event to wake me up from my rationalization and self-deceit, to realize what I was doing to myself, the people i loved, and even to the AP herself. 

I agree, one cannot hear until one is ready to listen. Toward the end of my A I told my mom what was going on (I have no idea why...probably looking for validation of my choices). I remember her being so angry with me, but I don't remember a single word she said...because I was not ready to hear. The nice thing about this site is that it will be here, so while they may not listen now, after some time goes by and they get to a point of being ready, they can come back and read these posts with fresh eyes. I know early on in my journey I came back and reread things a lot, getting new meaning each time. We are all works in progress.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Bittersweetie

[Hip Pocket]

4 hours ago, Bittersweetie said:

Maybe end goal was not the right phrase to use here. UF does not seem happy right now, and seems very confused, understandably so. I'm suggesting UF step back to look at the bigger picture because that might allow her to see where she wants to go moving forward. For example, UF herself has admitted her self-esteem is not good. She can step back and figure out how to strengthen her self-esteem, whether through IC or something else. Personally, I feel if she can strengthen her self-esteem, it may help her in deciding how to navigate her MM and her H. You mentioned earlier about having power, and right now UF is not holding her power. I'm encouraging her to take her own power by asking her to think about what she wants from life and her relationships and take steps to make that happen. I don't think that is a bad thing to ask, especially to a married middle aged woman currently in an EMR. I want her to be the person she wants to be, so maybe she needs to take the time to figure out who that is. 

Are you M? In a R? Have low self-esteem? Because I’ll tell you what, no MW would tell another MW to step away from their M in order to figure things out. Why? Because they are expected to simultaneously work things out either alone or with an IC while at the same time maintaining their R. So why advise an OW to step away? Makes no sense. She can work on improving her low self-esteem independently from working on her R with her MM/BF. 

[Hip Pocket]

2 hours ago, Unhappy fool said:

So MM turned up at my office.  He said he’d missed me so much he had to see me and would wait for me to be free for 5 minutes. 

I went outside and he told me he’d missed me terribly and just had to see me.  That he needed to hold me in his arms again  and his feelings for me ‘weren’t just sex’. I said it feels like it sometimes.  It was a brief chat as I did have get back to my office. He told me he wonderful he thinks I am. How I make him happy and his days better. 

The pull from him is incredible.

I have spoken with my husband and have said maybe it’s not best for either of us to live together to co-parent that we both need the chance of meeting someone/being happy.  He is not keen at all to move out- but since I essentially financially support him I suspect that has a role to play.

We have access to an employee’s counselling service at my place of work- I’ve sent the email to enquire as to how it works/how to access the service.  My self esteem needs massive work-  I was chatting to a colleague and was saying I’d just apologise to make a situation easier ( work related item) she was amazing I’d take the responsibility for someone else’s error.  Made me realise how often I say sorry/apologise immediately even if I’ve not done anything wrong.

I’ve no idea who I am, except and emotional mess.  I need inner peace as I am struggling to accept what I’ve become and the way forward. 

Working on your self-esteem independently of your R will no doubt have a good effect on your R. I’m excited for you! 

[Bittersweetie]

2 hours ago, Pocket said:

Are you M? In a R? Have low self-esteem? Because I’ll tell you what, no MW would tell another MW to step away from their M in order to figure things out. Why? Because they are expected to simultaneously work things out either alone or with an IC while at the same time maintaining their R. So why advise an OW to step away? Makes no sense. She can work on improving her low self-esteem independently from working on her R with her MM/BF. 

I am a married woman who had an affair with a married man when I was at my lowest self-esteem.  I believe I meant "step away" metaphorically, not literally. I want the best for UF and it seems currently she cannot see the forest for the trees right now so I hope to try to help her navigate that. Like I said, I don't think it's a bad thing for one to think about what they want from their life, in order to be more clear about the positive steps they can take moving forward. I am so glad that UF is looking into IC, I think it will be a great help to her.

[mark clemson]

On 1/5/2020 at 5:18 AM, Unhappy fool said:

I  need to see him, I miss him, cannot stop thinking of him.  I know this sounds crazy. A woman in her 40’s with a very responsible job acting lovesick. 

It sounds like you may have limerence. This is (ultimately) a brain chemistry thing. It somewhat similar to addiction. Crying a lot due to "longing" for the other person can be part of it (was for me).  Suggest you read up on it on Wikipedia so you have an understanding of what you are up against.

[mark clemson]

7 hours ago, Unhappy fool said:

So MM turned up at my office.  He said he’d missed me so much he had to see me and would wait for me to be free for 5 minutes. 

I went outside and he told me he’d missed me terribly and just had to see me.  That he needed to hold me in his arms again  and his feelings for me ‘weren’t just sex’.

The pull from him is incredible.

I’ve no idea who I am, except and emotional mess.  I need inner peace as I am struggling to accept what I’ve become and the way forward. 

He might have limerence too. Possibly he's faking, hard to know. At any rate, the pull isn't from him (and the pull to you isn't from you). It's from your own brains for each of you. I've been there, I know.

One way or another the limerence will eventually fade. You'll wake up one day and see him as he really is or was (for better or worse). You'll be able to remember feeling this way and yet not feel it about him. It's a strange experience.

Ultimately this emotional pull (and I understand how strong it can be) is finite. Remember that and let it guide your decision making as best you can right now.

[Hip Pocket]

5 hours ago, mark clemson said:

He might have limerence too. Possibly he's faking, hard to know. At any rate, the pull isn't from him (and the pull to you isn't from you). It's from your own brains for each of you. I've been there, I know.

One way or another the limerence will eventually fade. You'll wake up one day and see him as he really is or was (for better or worse). You'll be able to remember feeling this way and yet not feel it about him. It's a strange experience.

Ultimately this emotional pull (and I understand how strong it can be) is finite. Remember that and let it guide your decision making as best you can right now.

Thus is of course true for any R, even M. Well, especially M.  

[NomiMalone]

21 hours ago, Pocket said:

Unhappy fool, do not listen to advice from people who have not enjoyed nor learned how to navigate in a long term EMR. Your “place” is exactly where you want to be. You have so much more power than you know, you just haven’t learned it yet or used it. You do get to demand whatever you want, whatever your needs are, not only in this R but every R. It is NOT your job to wait and wonder, don’t listen to this rubbish! 
 

I’ve read through most of this thread and have only seen posters who are not in EMRs “support” you. They can post all they want, but please only take advice from those who have overcome the first confusing years of an EMR. Yes they can feel heady, this is how all love is felt in the beginning, even for MP not just EMRs. It’s not an addiction, it’s limerence. It does wear off and you will come to enjoy love in a more logical and stable way in the future if you choose to stay with this guy. And you’ll also be in a better place to decide if he’s good enough for you at that point. You can reassess your feelings at any time, that’s the beauty of not being locked into a M, so remember that because you can act on that reassessment whereas being M it’s more difficult to. 

You two need to set up some ground rules that will make you both happy. If he can’t be agreeable on negotiating a path forward that makes you both happy then ease back a bit. Don’t meet him the next time he calls. He’ll eventually come back with a compromise. Any smart man knows how to negotiate a good deal. If he doesn’t bring something to the table then you know you are dealing with someone who can’t compromise and isn’t good relationship material. For anyone, including his BW. 
 

Stay strong UF, and perhaps direct your posts to OP/AP who have BTDT and are happy doing it. 

@Pocket you raise an interesting alternative view here, and I don’t disagree.

However what you suggest doesn’t apply at all to Unhappy Fool (and the other 99% of OW on LS), who see being married to MM happily ever after as their end goal (instead of seeing the “beauty of not being married to MM.”)

As an OW, using your power to demand what you want from MM and setting ground rules only works if:

1)The OW is happy to remain a OW and doesnt have an end goal of being in a real relationship with MM. Few MM leave their marriages and certainly no one can demand that an MM divorce his wife. The OW can only choose to walk away when it becomes clear he’s not leaving.

And:

2)The MM is emotionally intelligent enough / understands women enough to know what the OW needs to stay happy and available to him (whether this be gifts, or daily calls etc.) He has to realise that in order for a woman to want to sleep with him, he has to make her feel desired, sexy, special and valued. It really is that easy. Forgetting his OW’s birthday, and being rigid about the little things that put her in “her place” is really not going to make her want to sleep with him. And really, how hard is it to type a birthday reminder in your calendar and pick up a cheap bottle of champagne? (Even though Unhappy Fool deserves better than a cheap bottle of champagne!) Just saying that that MM is seriously an idiot if he can’t even do something so simple to get himself laid. 

There is a current thread by a poster who’s happy being an OW. Perhaps these points are more relevant in a thread like that and not this OP’s thread.

Edited January 10, 2020 by NomiMalone

[FMW]

22 hours ago, Pocket said:

do not listen to advice from people who have not enjoyed nor learned how to navigate in a long term EMR.

Kind of the whole idea of this forum is that you get different perspectives on a situation.  It's up to the OP to decide which ones apply or are relevant to her particular situation. The very title of the thread indicates the OP is unhappy with where she finds herself, so it's not unreasonable to suggest the option of getting OUT instead of just learning to roll with it.    

[stillafool]

UF I'm so glad you had that talk with your husband and are aware of your low self esteem which needs work.  This is a great step in the right direction.  You deserve so much more than to be someone's woman on the side.  You are a giving, warm person and there are plenty of men who will find that attractive regardless of your age.  I have no doubt that a nice man will fall for you and vice versa.  You'll never regret it when you do the right thing and know it.  Good luck.

[mark clemson]

6 hours ago, Pocket said:

Thus is of course true for any R, even M. Well, especially M.  

Sure. What's different is that limerence for whatever reasons seems to intensify and cause much more distress (as OP clearly shows) in "apart" situations such as affairs, unrequited love, breakups, time spent apart, etc. When you actually have the other person with you as in a typical relationship/marriage it usually actually shuts off or at least shifts to a different and much less distressing mode.

It's also true in many, probably most healthy LTRs/marriages that the NRE in "new love" eventually fades and you see your partner in a much more realistic light. So we eventually shift from "giddy" NRE love to much more staid (but often still satisfying) "long term" love. And yes, it's all in your brain.

When you're distressed due to intense limerence and it's disrupting your emotional life is the time to reflect and get serious about helping yourself get out of the situation mentally (as much as possible - it's involuntary and so can't be simply shut off).  Intense limerence is tricky though and messes with your psychology. "You can get addicted to a certain kind of sadness..."

Edited January 10, 2020 by mark clemson

[Hip Pocket]

14 hours ago, Finding my way said:

Kind of the whole idea of this forum is that you get different perspectives on a situation.  It's up to the OP to decide which ones apply or are relevant to her particular situation. The very title of the thread indicates the OP is unhappy with where she finds herself, so it's not unreasonable to suggest the option of getting OUT instead of just learning to roll with it.    

UF asks in her OP how she got into this mess. It’s a very normal question to ask when you’re upset. I asked the same question many times during my long term M, didn’t mean that I sought advice on how to get out if it. 
 

We should offer our perspective <as it pertains to her>, where she is, in order to help her solve her problem. Telling her to get out if it is not the only way to solve it.