Talk to me about this emotional affair stuff...

[Wasted30years]

 My wife said this about a woman friend I had/have.  Years ago, I'd go 2-3 times a month to lunch or dinner with the friend.   Visited her house 1/2 dozen times.  No sex, no kissing, no hand holding, just a hug at arrival and departure. 

 

Wife and I have fought for years (pretty much all of them, and so my screen name,  but life was good at times), and I've moved out; divorce filed and stopped a couple years ago, and divorce is in process again.  The friendship with the woman was years before our first divorce filing. 

 

I used to enjoy the "ow''s" company, she was actually a lot like my wife in many ways - but I did not want sex w/her,  though I think one of those visits to her house I/we probably could have.

 

Never hid our communication on my phone or anything, and when wife saw, well, that ended the friendship of the "ow".  

 

Was it an EA?  I sure as hell didn't want to get in to a serious relationship with anybody else (i.e.  sexual) at the time. 

 

With our filing this time, I did look up the "ow", we've texted quite a bit until last week, and I even started to get feelings for her.   But we've both stopped, and my foolishness has abated. 

 

I definitely used the "ow" as an emotional crutch to lessen the pain of a crappy relationship (then and now), but "affair"?

If we pick up texting again, I'd agree this time it could turn into an emotional affair, or a full fledged one, but not 6-7 years ago.

 

I intend to finish the divorce this time,  but the whole emotional affair thing bugs me. 

 

Our problem has been her selfishness and my anger (as much at myself as her - knowing things I should do to, as they say in boxing, "protect yourself at all times" but was just unable to).  The anger was in wondering why the hell she was willing to take what was important to her but never "give" what was important to me.   Bitter, bitter fights, but I think she believes our marriage is ending because I've always wanted to cheat on her or leave her. 

 

What am I missing?

 

(And if this should be in another forum, please move....)

[carhill]

Welcome to LS..... 30 years M is a long time, hope you can find some peace...

 

IDK if you want to dive into forensics but, usually, during a M, the spouses decide where the boundaries are. Disagreements are worked out same as any other in the M. If irreconcilable, they become one of those, many of which usually impel a divorce.

 

The emotional crutch thing is tricky; in general, men are lousy emotional crutches, or anything having to do with emotional support and care, so women have an advantage when feeling alone in their M they can commiserate with female friends who offer an ear, love and support. That can happen with male friends of a man but it's really rare IME. Women usually are better at it and more authentic, like your friend.

 

The tricky part, IMO, that differentiates an emotional crutch with a platonic friend and an EA is how you feel. If the person is on your mind like a spouse or a lover would be, more likely to be a EA. If not, and you enjoy and appreciate your time with them but otherwise aren't wondering/thinking/worrying about their day and wishing they were around more, then more likely a friend. Obviously if you're having sexual thoughts about them regularly, that's not platonic at all.

 

Does it matter? IDK, you're getting a divorce. Get through it and move on. Is this friend married? If so, the friend's spouse may now view you as a threat. Not necessarily fair but life is unfair. Married people are, rightly or wrongly, often viewed as 'safe'. You may not be 'safe' any more.

 

I'd focus on the divorce and keep only light if any contact with the friend. Divorce can be stressful, even if it goes well. A long friendship with a hiatus can easily be resumed. Instead, hook up with some male friends and go do some guy stuff. It'll pass.

[Wasted30years]

I guess I'm just wondering; she used to bring that up and called it an EA.

 

I've seen the term used on the forums here, but to me it's either an affair or it's not.  However, there's a lot of wisdom here, and I'm not steeped in the art of affairs, so I wondered. 

 

As to why I'd care now that the divorce is proceeding, it's because I want to learn from mistakes I've made?  Don't know. 

 

I like the forum here, it gives some good wisdom. 

[schlumpy]

If you transferred attention and affection to your OW that you owed your wife, then yes it was an affair. You were cheating.

[mark clemson]

In my view, typically an EA involves some deception (an "affair") as well as romantic attraction/emotions but without sex. Your case sounds borderline as you had a strong friendship but didn't really want it to go physical (so not truly romantic in that sense) and also did not attempt to hide it. It sounds like you also did not let your wife know about it in advance, e.g. before visiting the friend? So that might be seen as deceptive, it's hard to say. Schlumpy's point about attention/affection that in theory should have been for your wife is certainly valid too.

Partly the spouse decides what is an affair. After all, if you were ****ing this woman with your wife's consent it would not be an "affair". It doesn't sound like your STBX wife had the opportunity in advance to consent to your visits to this friend?  It's also hard to say here as it sounds like she's maybe more harping on it due to the divorce and her mood about that than about actually what you did? After all it sounds like the horse has left barn on your divorce, etc.

So, IMO this sounds like a true borderline case where one could say maybe it was, maybe it wasn't an EA.

Edited December 30, 2019 by mark clemson

[Wasted30years]

Interesting comments.   I see the validity in the logic.  What emotion do I owe my wife?  As it is now, expressing great anger and vitriol towards her, two wrongs don't make a right, but neither did one wrong and one right (no matter who owned which).

It seems nothing justifies an affair,  but an affair justifies a divorce.  It's a shame I didn't get the sexual benefit if at a minimum it tilts towards "affair". 

At one point early on, I told my wife I'd like her to meet my friend, and told her I had lunch early on, but, as things have forever gone between us, we started fighting, and after that I kept the visits to myself; the initial visits with my friend were not the genesis of the fights, either. 

However, it doesn't change the logic, as at that point I was seeking time with a woman who wouldn't selfishly jam me up to get what she wanted.  It was refreshing.  

It's also symptomatic of another of my flaws, making a decision, putting a stake in the ground, and doing something concrete - i.e. acceptance that we're never going to fix our problems and filing for divorce.

I'm certainly placing all my hope in the concept of hope, after the divorce is final, that I can in not a long time find someone to share life with without the madness we've had for 30 years.

[Maturest]

I may not be the best person to answer this but, why did you spend time with the OW, did you ask YW to go to lunch with you and spend time just talking with her instead of the OW. Did you have more in common with the OW and felt free to talk about subjects you didn't talk with your wife about.

To me and I''ll be up front my hubby had a EA and we are getting a divorce also after 45 years. If you would rather be spending time with the OW then you are right to get the divorce.

[Brennan72]

I think a lot of attention needs to be paid to avoiding emotional affairs, or getting too attached to a friend of the opposite sex (or same if you are gay)

Anyone who is married must make sure that they have a deep, emotional connection to their spouse, that there is 100% honesty and transparency, and that they share the same values, vision, and to a lesser degree, ideology. If you find yourself depressed or anxious about something, and your first inclination is to call your friend, instead of your spouse, that is a red flag.

Now this doesn't mean you cannot have deep friendships with the opposite sex, but barriers and controls ned to be in place, and your spouse always has to be #1, the king or the queen.

Behaviors that can CAUSE emotional affairs or problems include

1. Being unsupportive of your spouse, or dismissing their concerns.

2. In the case of women, seeking counsel from other women who might be competitive, jealous, divorced, or of low character. 

3. Not being completely honest about things, or being vague when asked important questions 

 

[Wasted30years]

Maturest, the OW was a lot like my wife (and why initially I wanted my wife to meet "OW", I thought they'd get along), so it was like being able to spend time without the anger and bitterness attached.  There is a lot about my STBX that I love, but she's incredibly selfish and has a need for control - and we've fought like hell over it. All 30 years. 

Brennan72 hit the nail on the head with his #1; I could talk to her about anything, but she just didn't give a flying rats ass about anything important to me.  Fully 99% of the time.  I mean that literally.  I can think of two things she did in 30 years that showed me she was aware of what mattered to me.   

That's really hard to take. 

Now, we both did stupid things that hurt each other, and the last 2-3 years I've been mean and hurtful on purpose.   She showed my mother things that I'd said (texts), and I was admonished that my wife deserved none of that treatment no matter what the circumstance, so I'm not an angel by any stretch. 

But I can say that I've nearly always been supportive (90% of the time, and of the 10% I wasn't, a LOT of times I gave in out of frustration - but that's not "support") of what she wanted, and can point to a litany  of things to show it,  as well as things she didn't do;  she always said I was score keeping, but that litany came out when she asserted what I argued about wasn't true (facts and logic don't matter, apparently).

I hate the idea of divorce, but the stress of a crappy marriage and stress of poor job performance because of this crap gave me prostate cancer and, lately,  with the excessive drinking in an attempt to "self medicate", gave me electrical heart issues as well. 

I've been out of the house 3 weeks now, and while some days are hard, by and large my emotional well being is a lot better.   Hardly any drinking (the most I've had in any one day is two beers - prior to separation, I was putting down a bottle of wine a night), and finding an emotional equilibrium. 

I grate at the pejorative view that an EA is an "affair" - it's more a symptom that one needs to take a hard look at what one is (not) doing to/for the spouse.  When my STBX would point out how I was legitimately wrong, I never hesitated to accept it. And we all have our baggage to work through.  But two people have to do that.  If the consensus is that, and even the logic the way it's been presented, an EA is as bad as an affair with actual sex, then pardon my French, don't hide behind emotional bulls*** excuse that you get a pass because you're the "victim" of it (Maturest, NOT directed at you, it may well be your spouse is a stupid jerk, they are out there in numbers...).  As I said before, two wrongs don't make a right, but neither does one wrong and one right. 

[schlumpy]

I don't know if your EA was an affair, but when the spouse has transferred their feelings to another, and tells you up front that they don't love you romantically, then what difference does the sex make? That's what happens to many people now-a-days and it's a stealthy and silent blow to a marriage that the affected spouse never sees coming. It causes the same emotional upheaval as an actual physical affair even if it's all played out in the theater of the mind.

[Wasted30years]

15 hours ago, schlumpy said:

.... it's a stealthy and silent blow to a marriage that the affected spouse never sees coming. It causes the same emotional upheaval as an actual physical affair even if it's all played out in the theater of the mind.

Was there sex?  No.  Did I transfer my feelings to another?  Not entirely, not even mostly - I always hoped I could achieve a stronger, or more stable, and longer lasting "good" relationship.  I never told my wife I didn't love her.  Even now.  The fact that I didn't want a sexual relationship, or a "close" emotional relationship with the "OW" bears that out.  What I got from it was somebody that had no expectation of me to give up anything and everything I wanted or found important in order to take it all for her own benefit.

So, it qualifies for an EA, if perhaps by thin margins -  in the sense that I was looking to someone else to find acceptance and some joy, it does qualify. 

And 8 years later, she still feels exactly the way you state.  And at this point, I could give a rats ass how she feels.

My STBX has argued bitterly in order to get everything, every last cent, every last bit of my free time, so that she could get what she wanted.  Literally for the 30 years we've been married.  It's a serious attitude problem.  Put it this way - has anyone here had their spouse forge their signature to "hurry up" on a real estate purchase?  I told her I was leaning pretty strongly towards doing it, but to make the deal happen, the possibility that if things went wrong we'd have three house payments to make meant I wanted to sit on it for a day, think about our income and savings, feel comfortable it was doable.  I found out the next day,  when the realtor told me the offer had not been accepted.  I never signed an offer sheet, she'd forged my signature. 

We put $30K in to re-modeling the house I just moved out of, and the entire process, I never said no, and encouraged her to get what she really wanted.  Not six months later we were in California and I bought another set of coil springs for my sports car, $120.  She gave me a ration of s*** for it.  We're not hurting for money.  At all.

It wasn't horrible the entire 30 years, just half of it.  The other half was really, really great.  But I'm just tired of being shown that I am just not important, except what I can do for her.

The EA thing she brought up I thought was just bulls*** to jam me up some more, but I accept that while not an especially intense EA, it was one none the less (and I could still give a rats ass if it upset her or not anymore; yes, I am bitter and angry).  

[schlumpy]

I can feel your anger. I'm very sorry if I contributed to that. I was simply doing a mental exercise as to what constitutes cheating. I have no reason to not to believe you that no sex was Involved. You would think that would allow your wife to move past this incident but I've heard expressed many times by women that believing their spouse is in love with someone else is worse then a physical affair and that makes sense. If my wife stated she no longer loved me. I would consider myself free of all marital obligations and would act accordingly.

I find it a bit strange that she has waited so long before pulling the trigger. I have this feeling that she is just using this as an excuse to exit the marriage. Could that be a possibility? You have stated the last 15 years were not good.

Please don't think I'm unsympathetic. Your marriage has all the ingredients to be legendary and yet it didn't work out that way. I'm not sure if you will have an answer as to why.

[Wasted30years]

16 hours ago, schlumpy said:

I can feel your anger. I'm very sorry if I contributed to that. I was simply doing a mental exercise as to what constitutes cheating. I have no reason to not to believe you that no sex was Involved. You would think that would allow your wife to move past this incident but I've heard expressed many times by women that believing their spouse is in love with someone else is worse then a physical affair and that makes sense. If my wife stated she no longer loved me. I would consider myself free of all marital obligations and would act accordingly.

I find it a bit strange that she has waited so long before pulling the trigger. I have this feeling that she is just using this as an excuse to exit the marriage. Could that be a possibility? You have stated the last 15 years were not good.

Please don't think I'm unsympathetic. Your marriage has all the ingredients to be legendary and yet it didn't work out that way. I'm not sure if you will have an answer as to why.

 

No, you did not contribute anything but wisdom - some of which I really didn't like or want to hear, but, I think it was true nonetheless.  The dissolution is "mutual" but less mutal on her part than she'll let on - which is another thing that makes me angry, I don't believe she communicates honestly when it really, really counts, it becomes more of a cya.   Between my anger and bitterness, manifested emotionally (but not physically - which, she lied to someone about that, too... ugh), I've been a pretty big ass in the last 15 years, refusing to even communicate with her for long stretches, and her foibles, we're just a total disaster.  Half of it lies in what I just cannot seem to get past, and the other half is her ignoring what I say either hurts me or what I say is important to me.

So, those are than answers for why we're ending.

I do thank you for your insights and replies - if one cannot look at one's flaws, one cannot grow.  Even if a little painful to look in the mirror, maybe it helps me in the next chapter of events. Thanks again.