Wife ask to be back after 18 months.

[jolehno]

That's what she says, but no, in the recording its obvious what was going on, even that there were never ILY or anything like that.  Besides that, if she was not sleeping with him, what is her shame about? When I ask her to leave immediately, she never questioned my right to ask her to do so. She's a strong woman, if she wasn't at fault, she would have fight me over my right to throw her out.  I really think that it's some kind of madness, transitory  loonacy, wish to be 15 year old again. 

[Marc878]

As you’ve seen most all cheaters lie a lot.

no remorse = no reconciliation 

you can stay together but that’s about all you’ll get

[schlumpy]

Jolehno,

This is your relationship and you have the exclusive right to handle this anyway you see fit. If you are satisfied that she has learned her lesson and your life together can once more take on some forward motion, then who am I to warn you. You are there, while I may be thousands of kilometers away. Some couples have moved forward and not confronted what caused the marital problems in the first place. I don't think its common but it does happen. You could be one them.

God bless you for your gentle and forgiving nature.

With respect.

[mark clemson]

If you're looking for causes, the temptation to cheat presumably can be boiled down to brain chemistry and ultimately to genetics. Some people really don't have the temptation to cheat, but many do. We're wired to be serial monogamists (many of us at least) and sometimes that temptation is there to start the next one without all the "complications" of finishing the current one (heh).

However, it's not an excuse - whether one resists that temptation is a matter of will (also ultimately brain chemistry, but more in that vast "learning/personality" space that comes with the pre-frontal lobe).

You said you were looking for reasons. The above is still pretty vacuous in terms of specifics, frankly, particularly to an engineer type. But it's something. To a certain extent, she's wired for it (as are many of us) and she caved.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

On 1/28/2020 at 12:05 PM, jolehno said:

It amazes me how easily we can sometimes trash people. I think that given the right conditions, we all are able to do terrible things.  I guess she is that woman I was married for 23 years and is also this other one, that fell for a passion in a moment of weakness and that now, acts as wounded animal, ready to run or bait at the slightest sign of menace.

I been digging on all this infidelity matters and there's a reason for everything. Do you really think that is just a coincidence that most cheaters talk, act and say almost the same things?  Could it be coincidence the  lying, anxiety, depression, and the age near menopause at which many woman fall into infidelity? I am not looking for excuses, as many, also wounded BS like me could say, I am looking for answers. For reasons. I don't think for one minute that my wife just got up one day and decided to go f#ck somebody else. There has to be a thought process, a motive, be that hormonal, affective, frustration or just pure and simple sexual pleasure. It doesn't matter, has to be there a reason to destroy her and hers family lives. And that is what I am looking for.

Here in the infidelity forum, I guess we all are wounded souls and many might think that an almost 50 year old woman with college aged children and a structured life cheats just for the pleasure of it, but when I see more pain than pleasure, being that for the impossibility of being with the lover or else, I don't care. I want to know more and try to understand whatever twisted way of thinking she might be in, and what ever I´ll find, I will try to share it. It Might help somebody else in this s***y situation.

 

OK, yeah, sure, YOU might be the bad guy in all of this... YOU may somehow have pushed her to cheat...   if that is what you need to believe in order to justify your next family dinner.

 

But the path you are on leads to the next guy  F#cking your wife with you there liking it.   YOU are being walked all over.   Get up off of the floor and cease being a doormat at once.

 

An engineer... a  logical thinker...    and you still can't conclude the only sensible solution in this equation?

 

and FYI, here in the Infidelity forum, we are NOT "all wounded souls"...  for some of us merely got here via pushing some stupid button which said:  "what's new"...  vs the old, superior software that let us easily pick and choose what forums we landed in, when they were listed on the front page.

 

"College-aged children" is the last piece to this puzzle...  there aren't even any kids to "stay together for".

 

The people you merely want to "understand" just for sport... are OTHERS who are NOT tethered to your household in any way, when you can educate yourself about their motives and inspirations without being emotionally tethered to the answers (and so you will deduce clear answers instead of those clouded by your own interests).

 

Look, it really is possible that you yourself effected 50% of this mess...  by totally ignoring her, and not recognizing her challenges  even after you returned home from a bad day (or decade).

BUT then again you didn't stray outside the marriage, did you??

 

Potentially you both long ago painted your marriage into a corner... from where it would be tougher to drop the defenses and actually communicate for a first time in years, than it would be to keep doing hurtful things to one another either passively or with intent.  

 

Now you're at a point where you want the remnants of what was... merely because, from this point, that seems easier than would be to cut bait and bring yourself back to square one and attempt a better effort with a better woman.   (that's hard to accomplish, because you can't convince yourself that some fabulous babe is out there and open to you)

 

The time to apply yourself to this marriage was decades ago...  but you didn't...  because the easier path was to keep (basically ignoring it) as you went along through your work days.

 

Now, when common sense would go in one direction, you are still opting for the easy way out... despite having been made a fool of by the very person who once professed to love you.

 

 

[oldtruck]

your WW wants reconciliation, then she must take a polygraph test

Edited January 30, 2020 by oldtruck

[michzz]

You quoted me, irritated that I was trashing your wife out of some prejudices on my part. And you just want to engineer a solution to a flaw.

My perspective is as a husband who twisted in the wind even longer than you did with a unrepentant wife. She lied, blameshifted, the whole script. and all of it? She admitted to some of it ONLY after i found out her horrible, long-term affair.

I ended up realizing after 32 years of marriage and 16 years since the first dribbled out revelation that I was wasting my time with her.

We did marriage counseling (during which she lied, said nothing happened), we let he rug sweep for years. We had me buying a house withy her to start over. Always the children to protect.

She had what i call her susie creamcheese persona that had everyone fooled. Me, her parents, friends, extended family.

My perspective was to try to FIX things. Huge pathetic pick me dance.

She infected me with HPV that gave me cancer that only appeared after we divorced and I'd remarried. 

I outed her to my whole family that she had cheated for at least a decade and only stopped when that guy died. She never admitted to the earlier affairs that I was clueless about until I bluffed that I knew. 

So, this is longwinded, but I want you to really understand that you cannot blame her cheating on genetics, hormones, or anything other than her wanting to do it. Take to heart how much planning and deception it takes to maintain a long-term affair. And a total lack of empathy for a spouse.

Good luck. You need it.



 

Edited February 1, 2020 by michzz

[pepperbird]

OP,

unless you you forced your wife to meet, go out with and finally sleep with these guys, this is not your fault.

Lots of people are n tough spots int heir marriages, and they don't cheat. It's not the result of a failed marriage, it's the result of failed ethics and m orality on her part. She was more than ready to lie to you for all those year. Every day, she'd look you in the face and lie.
Even if you guys did get back together, how will you ever be able to trust her again? That's no life for either of you to live.

[oldtruck]

broken trust can be repaired.

never to the level of blind  trust,  though enough to sleep well.

however if a WW refuses to stop the rug sweeping and start recovery with

doing a polygraph, then the broken trust will never be repaired.

[jolehno]

Ok, finally found a therapist that agreed to answer my questions instead than expecting me to make the question and also answer them.  So, last Friday went there, and this is what he said.  Bear with me, This might be long.

I gave him the context of my marriage, her family of origin and mine, age and children age, education etc. And basically, it was this, she is a 48-year-old attractive and fit woman for her age, high school level education, financially stable, energetic and for 23 years, totally dedicated to our family.

12 years ago, suffered of suicide ideations, paranoid syndrome, extreme fear, and would wake up before down and get in her car and just drive for an hour or so to calm down or something, never was able to verbalize what was going on with her, just an acute anxiety.

At that time, she went to the doctor who prescribed serotonin reuptake inhibitors, among other medicines for over a year and just a few months into the meds, she started to get better. The doctor said it was depression, but for me it was hard to believe, since she is someone that never rests, she must be doing something all the time. She also went weekly, for a few months  to a woman psychologist but I think it didn’t do any good.

Her father was a serial cheater and lived in other city due to work. (she found years later that she has 3 half-brothers in that other city).  She and her mother would go see her father in weekends, having, actually two homes, one for the weekends at her fathers and another for weekdays, whit the mother. Her mother had a lifelong lover (who she saw as a sort of uncle) and when the father found out, (wife was then, 19 years old) the mother just never went back to the father’s house or speak to him again.

When we married, I remember she asked her mother lover, if by any chance he could be her real father she wanted to know before getting married and leaving her mother’s house. He said no.

As I already said, we have two children, 19 and 21 who are living out of the house now.

Ok, so I gave all the info I could, and this is what the therapist said, he warned me that it was a very broad overview.

First, the fact she had depression and was on medication for one year due to low serotonin levels.  He said serotonin is a brain chemical that controls several functions. One of those is self-regulation. Low serotonin levels are related to such things as depression and maybe even borderline personality disorder. He says that people engaged in romantic affairs start to produce dopamine and dopamine, lowers the serotonin levels in the brain, and that’s why many people engaged in affairs, exhibit many of the same symptoms of BPD or narcissism. And this could be why people involved in affairs begin to obsess over the affair partner and definitely why even people with strong moral backgrounds seem to so easily let go of their morality to pursue what even they would say was wrong before the affair started. 

Second, her FOO. He said that almost all woman involved in affairs have “Daddy Issues” that means a distant, alcoholic, unfaithful, violent, indifferent or not present father. Well, he had all but the violent. I meet my father in law two years after we married, so good for a distant father!. He is alcoholic, a cheater and obviously distant. In the other hand, her mother was a cheater since before my wife was born. The mother lover was this guy, kind of uncle that paid her entire education, was around all the time and gave her all her life Christmas and birthday presents etc.

Third. She is a 48, perimenopause woman who is going into a hormonal whirlwind. He says that at this age many women somehow lose their ground. Many starts questioning their lives, divorces promoted by woman are high at this age. Fear of aging or death arise, the levels of testosterone start to be higher than usual, as the feminine hormones start to lower, and that could cause higher sex drive, boldness, risk craving etc. and If I don’t believe the power of hormones in behavior, just think in the passage from boyhood to adolescence, all driven by hormones. Also, our children have grown and are out of the house. So, half the reasons to be a housewife are disappearing. There’s is a name to that, “Empty nest syndrome” which means housewives suddenly find themselves deprived of their sense of duty and start to question their priorities etc. 

He said she had most of the common issues of woman who stray, The FOO, the depression, because  people that never rests, like her, it’s a form of depression called hippomaniac, and it is a way to cope with life by being busy and never stop to think about your life.

About her reluctancy to acknowledge her wrong, he says that not everyone is the same, reacts the same or face conflict the same. She must have basic coping skills, just like I said, like a child and the proverbial forbidden cookies. He says that small children when caught doing wrong, cover their eyes. they really think that if they can’t see you, you won’t see them either or at least, the fear goes away. A child will swear that he didn’t touch the cookies even if he has them in his hands. That is the way he has learned so far to face conflict. Maybe, as a spoiled only child, she never developed more mature ways to face conflict.  In the other hand, I seem to have other ways of coping with conflict, that have nothing to do with my job, and that is trying to look for reasons.

She manages shame and guilt by negating the fact. I, by looking for reasons and meaning. Both are just ways to cope and endure the pain. For her, it never happened, for me, it happened for this and that, so if I fix this or that, it won’t happen again, or I excuse her because it wasn’t all her fault.

He asked if she had economic independence, good health, a place to live, or looks and education to find another partner.   To which I said yes to all. He asked if I think she wants back for the children, and I don’t think she does, since they are out now. So finally, he asked why do you think she wants to be back? To have her family back, is what she said.

He says that black and white thinking is psychologically unhealthy. That to think that every woman who cheats is a worthless lying whore or a poor victim of a bad marriage, FOO issues or a sick person, is not real. The same way that a faithful partner is not an angel or just a victim of a soulless partner.

That there are many overlapping reasons to every behavior and that most people just try to do the best they can. Some do better than others, just like in every aspect of life.

By all means, she should be sorry and verbalize it, but probably she isn’t able to do so. She probably has other ways to show being sorry, because she maybe never learned to use language to show her feelings.

He mentioned something about a part of the brain he called The Reptile Brain, and that there is some people, woman specially, that under severe or prolonged stress and anxiety, or somebody unable to manage shame, their superior brain functions and ability to reason just stop (Could this be the so called FOG?) and that the reptile brain takes over, This part of the brain does not reasons, it’s just moved by emotions liked fear, love, hate, desire etc. They are in a kind of run or attack mode that could explain her explosive anger whenever I asked if there was something going on before I found out her affair, or how she transforms when I brought up the subject, from a tender caring person, into a angry and spiteful woman.

So, for now, I have enough thought material and my looking for answers seems it’s just a way I don’t have to think about my wife f#*ing a stranger or a fancy way to forgive her. Also, when the child takes the cookies, he is supposed not to touch, is because he likes them and thinks nobody will notice. So, she most certainly liked to screw around and convinced herself I never was going to find out.

And sorry if something sounds off, English is not my language.

[Fletch Lives]

Quote

She is the kind of people that never will say sorry or accept her wrongdoings. 

- That's a major problem. She's a cheater and Lier and lacks integrity. I think you did the right thing and are better off without her. So find a new woman.

[WilyWill]

If she's so brain dead that she can't figure out she did something wrong and apologize for it, how is she fit to be in a relationship with anyone? People are not just animals who respond to base instincts and serotonin levels. Most of us have a concept of what is right and wrong, and the maturity to take responsibility for our wrongs. If she doesn't have that, why on earth do you want to be with her?

Another thing to keep in mind: You are plan B. If her lover hadn't gone back to his wife, she'd still be with him. He was plan A. When that didnt work out, she thought she could fall back on the chump who treated her well. At least until the next guy came along.

Do you really want to spend the rest of your life with someone who considers you to be her backup plan, and could easily fall in "love" with the next guy that comes along?

There are remorseful spouses who earn a second chance. Your wife is not even in the beginning stages of remorse.

[Marc878]

Did your IC mention that if she has zero remorse you could get a repeat.

that happens all the time.

beware

[preraph]

You were lucky to find someone who gave you that much good information. 

 

I think she should go have a hormone panel done with a non obstetrician-gynecologist who stays up on hormone therapy. There are some that aren't capable of that, so you have to look for one set has on there website warning if you call a nurse there that they are hormone therapists. I need to do a panel and see if she needs adjustment because she is at that age when hormones swing. I had a fairly manic hyper-sexual phase at about her age and it followed a depression. Her meds probably need adjusting all around. 

 

But all that aside, she is also at we age and time in her life when she loses her identity of it because of the kids no longer being kids. Women often to give up their identity when they have children, and then when the kids are gone they're confused and don't know what to do or what they want or who they are. 

 

I don't like it that she feels she has to come back to you just to get her kids back and I don't know that that's going to work smoothly and I don't know what it means as concerns you as her husband. I mean she could easily meet her children someplace like a coffee shop. There's more to it than just that they don't like her mom. 

 

Certainly you would both need to get into marriage counseling together with the same one who was kind enough to give you all this advice. Why not try that before she moves home.

[oldtruck]

Dr Harley has seen marriages reviver where the WW apologized for hurting her BH

though never showed remorse.

[pepperbird]

On 2/4/2020 at 1:06 PM, jolehno said:

Ok, finally found a therapist that agreed to answer my questions instead than expecting me to make the question and also answer them.  So, last Friday went there, and this is what he said.  Bear with me, This might be long.

I gave him the context of my marriage, her family of origin and mine, age and children age, education etc. And basically, it was this, she is a 48-year-old attractive and fit woman for her age, high school level education, financially stable, energetic and for 23 years, totally dedicated to our family.

12 years ago, suffered of suicide ideations, paranoid syndrome, extreme fear, and would wake up before down and get in her car and just drive for an hour or so to calm down or something, never was able to verbalize what was going on with her, just an acute anxiety.

At that time, she went to the doctor who prescribed serotonin reuptake inhibitors, among other medicines for over a year and just a few months into the meds, she started to get better. The doctor said it was depression, but for me it was hard to believe, since she is someone that never rests, she must be doing something all the time. She also went weekly, for a few months  to a woman psychologist but I think it didn’t do any good.

Her father was a serial cheater and lived in other city due to work. (she found years later that she has 3 half-brothers in that other city).  She and her mother would go see her father in weekends, having, actually two homes, one for the weekends at her fathers and another for weekdays, whit the mother. Her mother had a lifelong lover (who she saw as a sort of uncle) and when the father found out, (wife was then, 19 years old) the mother just never went back to the father’s house or speak to him again.

When we married, I remember she asked her mother lover, if by any chance he could be her real father she wanted to know before getting married and leaving her mother’s house. He said no.

As I already said, we have two children, 19 and 21 who are living out of the house now.

Ok, so I gave all the info I could, and this is what the therapist said, he warned me that it was a very broad overview.

First, the fact she had depression and was on medication for one year due to low serotonin levels.  He said serotonin is a brain chemical that controls several functions. One of those is self-regulation. Low serotonin levels are related to such things as depression and maybe even borderline personality disorder. He says that people engaged in romantic affairs start to produce dopamine and dopamine, lowers the serotonin levels in the brain, and that’s why many people engaged in affairs, exhibit many of the same symptoms of BPD or narcissism. And this could be why people involved in affairs begin to obsess over the affair partner and definitely why even people with strong moral backgrounds seem to so easily let go of their morality to pursue what even they would say was wrong before the affair started. 

Second, her FOO. He said that almost all woman involved in affairs have “Daddy Issues” that means a distant, alcoholic, unfaithful, violent, indifferent or not present father. Well, he had all but the violent. I meet my father in law two years after we married, so good for a distant father!. He is alcoholic, a cheater and obviously distant. In the other hand, her mother was a cheater since before my wife was born. The mother lover was this guy, kind of uncle that paid her entire education, was around all the time and gave her all her life Christmas and birthday presents etc.

Third. She is a 48, perimenopause woman who is going into a hormonal whirlwind. He says that at this age many women somehow lose their ground. Many starts questioning their lives, divorces promoted by woman are high at this age. Fear of aging or death arise, the levels of testosterone start to be higher than usual, as the feminine hormones start to lower, and that could cause higher sex drive, boldness, risk craving etc. and If I don’t believe the power of hormones in behavior, just think in the passage from boyhood to adolescence, all driven by hormones. Also, our children have grown and are out of the house. So, half the reasons to be a housewife are disappearing. There’s is a name to that, “Empty nest syndrome” which means housewives suddenly find themselves deprived of their sense of duty and start to question their priorities etc. 

He said she had most of the common issues of woman who stray, The FOO, the depression, because  people that never rests, like her, it’s a form of depression called hippomaniac, and it is a way to cope with life by being busy and never stop to think about your life.

About her reluctancy to acknowledge her wrong, he says that not everyone is the same, reacts the same or face conflict the same. She must have basic coping skills, just like I said, like a child and the proverbial forbidden cookies. He says that small children when caught doing wrong, cover their eyes. they really think that if they can’t see you, you won’t see them either or at least, the fear goes away. A child will swear that he didn’t touch the cookies even if he has them in his hands. That is the way he has learned so far to face conflict. Maybe, as a spoiled only child, she never developed more mature ways to face conflict.  In the other hand, I seem to have other ways of coping with conflict, that have nothing to do with my job, and that is trying to look for reasons.

She manages shame and guilt by negating the fact. I, by looking for reasons and meaning. Both are just ways to cope and endure the pain. For her, it never happened, for me, it happened for this and that, so if I fix this or that, it won’t happen again, or I excuse her because it wasn’t all her fault.

He asked if she had economic independence, good health, a place to live, or looks and education to find another partner.   To which I said yes to all. He asked if I think she wants back for the children, and I don’t think she does, since they are out now. So finally, he asked why do you think she wants to be back? To have her family back, is what she said.

He says that black and white thinking is psychologically unhealthy. That to think that every woman who cheats is a worthless lying whore or a poor victim of a bad marriage, FOO issues or a sick person, is not real. The same way that a faithful partner is not an angel or just a victim of a soulless partner.

That there are many overlapping reasons to every behavior and that most people just try to do the best they can. Some do better than others, just like in every aspect of life.

By all means, she should be sorry and verbalize it, but probably she isn’t able to do so. She probably has other ways to show being sorry, because she maybe never learned to use language to show her feelings.

He mentioned something about a part of the brain he called The Reptile Brain, and that there is some people, woman specially, that under severe or prolonged stress and anxiety, or somebody unable to manage shame, their superior brain functions and ability to reason just stop (Could this be the so called FOG?) and that the reptile brain takes over, This part of the brain does not reasons, it’s just moved by emotions liked fear, love, hate, desire etc. They are in a kind of run or attack mode that could explain her explosive anger whenever I asked if there was something going on before I found out her affair, or how she transforms when I brought up the subject, from a tender caring person, into a angry and spiteful woman.

So, for now, I have enough thought material and my looking for answers seems it’s just a way I don’t have to think about my wife f#*ing a stranger or a fancy way to forgive her. Also, when the child takes the cookies, he is supposed not to touch, is because he likes them and thinks nobody will notice. So, she most certainly liked to screw around and convinced herself I never was going to find out.

And sorry if something sounds off, English is not my language.

bull. that's all i can say.
OP, I am married to and living with someone with a diagnosed mental illness, and the level of selfishness is beyond belief. I get that so much of his mental energy is tied up in himself that he has little to none left for me, but all the explanations in the world don't negate the hurt his actions cause.
If your wife truly is mentally ill, she has to help herself-you can not help her. She will drag you down with her.
If she is BPD (borderline personality disorder) then please, get out now! With all due respect to this living with that disorder, it can be terrible for their spouse. In fact. there's a school of thought that it's akin to psychopathy-I don't know if I;d got that far but it is a terrible condition to be partnered to. In her mind, because she's so "hurt", she will forever be entitled to and deserve whatever she feels makes her feel better, never mind if it hurts you.

[pepperbird]

oh and OP,

if your therapist is anything less than a psychiatrist, he or she has no  business diagnosing your wife with anything

[Dimjo9]

Hi Jolehno,

You are a principled & honorable man by the looks of it.. Why are you going to take back someone you already get rid ?

Life begins at 61yrs old the secret is fitness.. if u are not into it start a program that will suit your body needs.. the trainer will help you on this..

Your boys are already grown up soon they will move out.. The fatherly duties you di no one can question & heads up !!

When you have already reach your fitness goals start dating.. Men as we mature we get better especially if we are healthy..

You empty your CUP of dirty water, soon you can pour fresh one..Without even u looking a lady will soon enter your life 101% better than your exW..

Explore & open your horizon with her.. i wish you all the best that life can offer !! 👍🏻👍🏻

 

[jolehno]

Thanks Dimjo9, certainly I am hoping for that!  I will take time, there's no hurry, time always get things in its right place!!