thefooloftheyear Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) 39 minutes ago, RecentChange said: I am not sure how old you are, but yes times are a changing. Despite the gender pay gap, and time off for maternity etc - women are now earned much more than they ever did. More women than men graduate college. More women are going to high paying jobs in the STEM fields, law, medical, etc. My mother (PhD) earns much more than my father (plant manager) ever did. My sister on law (medical research) earns much more than my brother does (tech). Other sister in law earns 2x (biotech) that of her spouse (mechanic) I earn 2.5 (insurance/law) of what my husband does. Money is commingled in these households. At my office, a good number of the women who work here earn more than their husbands do. Now these are just anecdotes - but the trends are there. The rise of the necessity of the dual earner household have changed things. Fewer women aspire to or can even be stay at home mothers and are rather obtaining degrees and cultivating careers. No argument on any of these points...Im not that much older than you, btw... But most of the guys I know are like me...In that sense they are big earners, but also big givers...I wont go into detail, but the type of things I do/did no woman would do, no matter how much she made...And do it without any guilt or shame to the other person.. IME(and this is important to note), the women I know like what you are talking measure every cent they give the guys that they are with...Anything frivolous and he has to provide a spreadsheet showing the benefits of it and everything has to be accounted for...The guys become like little kids asking for allowances....Its crazy ...Meanwhile I know guys that leave piles of cash around the house for their wives to use at their leisure and buy expensive stuff for them all the time, ride around using the credit card his company is paying for, etc.. no questions asked...Its more about how men are to women vs the same... There is always some shame and rolling of eyes from the women in the situations you mention....Its no way for a guy to live his life... TFY Edited January 10, 2020 by thefooloftheyear 1 Link to post Share on other sites
stillafool Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) Personally I don't care if single men who are low on options hire a prostitute. It upsets some women but has nothing to do with me. If that is what you need to do to get your needs met then go for it. They are there for a reason. I think too some men can't get sex with someone as good looking as some prostitutes so they figure at least they are getting the body they want even if no emotions are involved. Plus they can have options without having to cheat. Also some men just may not want the hassle of dealing with women's emotions and some just don't want the hassle of a relationship. Edited January 10, 2020 by stillafool Link to post Share on other sites
RecentChange Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 @thefooloftheyear I have not encountered what you describe. Again, maybe it's a generational thing. For example in my household - all the money goes into a joint account (same with my parents, brothers household) - there is no doling out of allowances - that's completely foreign to me. Big purchases are discussed, but honestly we know each other so well, and agree on finances it's never an issue. I do tend to be more fiscally conservative than he is - so it usually takes him encouraging me to treat myself to a new saddle etc before I actually pull the trigger. If he says he wants something, unless we have some sort of budget issue, my answer is always yes do it! Honestly it sounds like a compatibility issue. Money is a big issue - but if both parties are on the same page when it comes to how they think fiances should be handled - well I don't think these power struggles you describe become much of an issue. Because that is why you have described, a power struggle. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SincereOnlineGuy Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/3/2020 at 8:46 PM, Ruby Slippers said: There are other cold hard business benefits of marriage. Generally, the world treats married men more favorably than eternal bachelors, sizing them up to be more accomplished, respectable, and, well, alpha. Kings of jungles, silverbacks, etc. don't buy their mates. They earn them. Yes, and the world treats people who have imaginary friends more favorably than it does people who can separate fantasy from reality, but there is no sane reason for that difference. So basing your behavior or position on the world's opinion isn't exactly an intelligent move. Link to post Share on other sites
Kitty Tantrum Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said: Never happens....Fantasyland stuff.. Why? Because its considered "unmanly" to do that... TFY Yeah, plenty of guys out there have ZERO QUALMS about doing unmanly things. I mean, PERSONALLY I can't fathom willfully behaving in a way that is so ungracious and unfeminine as divorce-raping a man, but that doesn't stop HOARDS of other women from doing so. Be careful about projecting your own virtue onto others! My first husband TOTALLY would have "taken me to the cleaners" if he could have. He was constantly trying to prod me into the role of sole breadwinner, like he wanted to be some kind of sugar baby and get taken care of and pampered just for being pretty and special (LOL). When I told him I was leaving him, he FREAKED OUT and it sure wasn't "I love you" it was "OMG what do I do I don't know how to live without you." I won't deny that this is much more common among women - hence why this behavior is one of many things which has led me to sarcastically refer to him as "the woman in the marriage" or "my ex-wife." But times certainly ARE changing. I've kept everything out of court so far simply by being willing to suffer the tantrums he throws any time the situation does not appear to be overwhelmingly in his favor financially/materially. I easily COULD HAVE "taken him to the cleaners" - so far as one can wheedle resources out of a lazy man with zero ambition, anyway. I'm scandalized and repulsed by the idea of taking any money from him that he does not volunteer for the purpose of supporting his children. Before my new husband stepped in and started taking care of me, my life was about ten times harder than it had to be because of that (while my ex has maintained a pretty comfortable standard of living the whole time) - but whatever. I make my decisions based on principles, not based on the potential for monetary gain. Maybe that makes "the manly one" in spite of all my attempts to develop the traditional virtues of femininity - but all that just furthers the point: times are a-changin'. However, to get back to the original question, tangentially related: I get irked when I see people talking about "the cost of dating" or "the cost of marriage" in a model where people approach mate-searching as though it's literally some kind of market where the goal is to get as much as you can of whatever it is you want from your partner, for the smallest possible investment. It's like everybody is looking for a big "relationship payout" from another person - often feeling that they are OWED this by "the market" simply because of the time, money, etc. they've already sunk into "playing the game" and their level of "experience." And then they wonder why any long-term partnership feels like being locked in battle with someone who is trying to bleed them dry financially, emotionally, whatever??? Until you can STOP APPROACHING IT LIKE THAT, then yes - you are probably better off just paying for the company of someone who will leave without a tear as soon as you stop paying them. There are alternatives, though. Personally, I approach marriage more as a partnership of mutual sacrifice. Rather than negotiating what we each want to get out of the deal, it's more like: these are the things each of us brings to the table, and together we will harness all of these things for a common purpose. In terms of what we do for each other, that is simple: all that we can, according to prudence and necessity. If you scoff at that, or think it's too romantic or unattainable - then yeah, maybe stick to the IG hookers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
PinkFlamingo Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 On 1/4/2020 at 8:01 PM, Kitty Tantrum said: $150 per date?? Why is this seen as "normal"? That's outrageous. That's what you should be paying for an anniversary dinner, not a first (or second or third) date. Men complain about the expense of dating and the transactional nature of sex in modern relationships - but they keep throwing more and more money around in an attempt to secure access to sex without commitment. Yes, of COURSE you might as well just pay for sex if that's the "dating" model you've bought into. When you're angling for SEX and using MONEY as your bait, you're gonna catch mostly whores, no matter what you call the process. I don't know ANYONE who is in a happy/healthy relationship that started out this way. Modern dating is a scam that basically covertly herds people into the prostitution/gambling model, with all the bars and clubs and other venues/businesses with their fingers in the pot acting as the "house" or "pimp" and raking in the profits while the men AND women participating are drained of their resources. A small percentage get lucky and walk away with more than they brought in, but the vast majority are left bitter and empty. Right? I usually just meet for a coffee or ice cream in summer. I don't want a complete dinner. If I don't like to see the guy again, it would make me feel awful. Honestly, with most guys I meet, I'll be lucky if they pay for my ice cream. 😂 I do kind of expect them to pay for my drink, but at the same time, if I know that he's the kind of guy who will do that, it puts me in the awkward situation where I can't order anything else anymore, because I do not want him to spend more than a couple of bucks for me. A drink or a cup of coffee/tea is my lower limit, but also my upper limit. 😂 Link to post Share on other sites
PinkFlamingo Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 5 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said: No argument on any of these points...Im not that much older than you, btw... But most of the guys I know are like me...In that sense they are big earners, but also big givers...I wont go into detail, but the type of things I do/did no woman would do, no matter how much she made...And do it without any guilt or shame to the other person.. IME(and this is important to note), the women I know like what you are talking measure every cent they give the guys that they are with...Anything frivolous and he has to provide a spreadsheet showing the benefits of it and everything has to be accounted for...The guys become like little kids asking for allowances....Its crazy ...Meanwhile I know guys that leave piles of cash around the house for their wives to use at their leisure and buy expensive stuff for them all the time, ride around using the credit card his company is paying for, etc.. no questions asked...Its more about how men are to women vs the same... There is always some shame and rolling of eyes from the women in the situations you mention....Its no way for a guy to live his life... TFY I also do find my girlfriends are often less generous than my guyfriends. Men are more used to be paying for someone else than women and while women demand emancipation that is really one aspect that they usually do not want to give up or it has never occurred to them that it needs to be discussed. I've seen men get divorced and regarding money they were very generous with their wives, while their wives were really greedy, nasty people. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Mrin Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 On 1/4/2020 at 12:01 PM, Kitty Tantrum said: $150 per date?? Why is this seen as "normal"? That's outrageous. That's what you should be paying for an anniversary dinner, not a first (or second or third) date. Back when I was dating my dates would often run $100-$200. But I like good food. And taking dates to the theatre. Or a museum. But I'd never go the prostitute route. Dating for me was never about the sex. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
DKT3 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 On 1/4/2020 at 1:01 PM, Kitty Tantrum said: $150 per date?? Why is this seen as "normal"? That's outrageous. That's what you should be paying for an anniversary dinner, not a first (or second or third) date. Men complain about the expense of dating and the transactional nature of sex in modern relationships - but they keep throwing more and more money around in an attempt to secure access to sex without commitment. Yes, of COURSE you might as well just pay for sex if that's the "dating" model you've bought into. When you're angling for SEX and using MONEY as your bait, you're gonna catch mostly whores, no matter what you call the process. I don't know ANYONE who is in a happy/healthy relationship that started out this way. Modern dating is a scam that basically covertly herds people into the prostitution/gambling model, with all the bars and clubs and other venues/businesses with their fingers in the pot acting as the "house" or "pimp" and raking in the profits while the men AND women participating are drained of their resources. A small percentage get lucky and walk away with more than they brought in, but the vast majority are left bitter and empty. Olive garden or red lobster will run you $70-80 without a bottle of wine. Throw in cover to take her dancing or movies its and easy $150 1 Link to post Share on other sites
CAPSLOCK BANDIT Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 19 hours ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said: Well, it IS unmanly...still happens. In a world where a large portion of men are raised by single mothers and have no father figure, I find it difficult to apply your standards of what is manly and unmanly evenly across the board... Approximately 80% of our prison systems population of men are men raised by single mothers, men who don't know when to stop trying to be "Manly" or even what being "Manly" is. For a lot of these men, prison is the first place they ever have some kind of father figure. Dare I say, the real problem today is that our women are not "Womanly". Link to post Share on other sites
SumGuy Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 12 hours ago, DKT3 said: Olive garden or red lobster will run you $70-80 without a bottle of wine. Throw in cover to take her dancing or movies its and easy $150 Wow! that's a major first date (which are really just first meets when it comes to OLD) and even a major second or third. For me movies are for only after you are together, a couple so to speak, as there is no talking in a movie. Then again movies only add another $30. Not sure where you go dancing but around me there are a couple places where Fridays are free, a lot are free if you arrive before the band sets up and the "expensive" ones are $10. It's the drinks that get you. But if I ask her dancing it's not like will start drinking with her at another venue before hand. I live in an expensive area and drinks plus some food (not lobster or new york strip) will run about $60-70. However if it is not clicking, it's just drinks so about $30. In the end I think it is the drinks that cost or going for lobster and steaks, for me and my dates it is typically 2 or 3 drinks each max over a night...you know its going well if she asks you to share a drink with her. Link to post Share on other sites
SumGuy Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 14 hours ago, PinkFlamingo said: I also do find my girlfriends are often less generous than my guyfriends. Men are more used to be paying for someone else than women and while women demand emancipation that is really one aspect that they usually do not want to give up or it has never occurred to them that it needs to be discussed. I've seen men get divorced and regarding money they were very generous with their wives, while their wives were really greedy, nasty people. Never seen a connection between generosity and gender or even between generosity and how much money a person has. In fact, those who have had the most and have the most I often find ate the most greedy (maybe why they got what they have as those folks never earned it by ability). On divorce, there always seems to be one party who is greedy and difficult. In my personal sphere of guy friends it is the ex-wife (maybe because i don't has a**hats as guy friends) and when I did OLD it was usually the ex-husband who was greedy and difficult, etc. You know who really makes out, the divorce attorney of the difficult person. Though where I live the court system in practice strongly favors the woman so they are more likely to succeed on getting what they want. I really don't define my manhood by money or material things, I think that is a philosophy we have been sold that is very bad for us all, but rather by character and how you live and treat others. Sure being lazy can lead to poverty, but it's not the poverty I judge, but being a self serving bully can lead to riches and financial success. As they say, rich man and eye of a needle and all that. Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaPeach1 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 6 hours ago, CAPSLOCK BANDIT said: In a world where a large portion of men are raised by single mothers and have no father figure, I find it difficult to apply your standards of what is manly and unmanly evenly across the board... Approximately 80% of our prison systems population of men are men raised by single mothers, men who don't know when to stop trying to be "Manly" or even what being "Manly" is. For a lot of these men, prison is the first place they ever have some kind of father figure. Dare I say, the real problem today is that our women are not "Womanly". Perhaps men should stop randomly impregnating women who are not mother/wife material. Women aren't knocking themselves up. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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