DKT3 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Their are social and cultural factors that have forced or enticed people to defer children. However, even when the choice is made that drive still exists. Which is evident in this topic. We could have 1000 women come on this thread and say they never wanted children and I wouldn't believe one of them. Rather, they suppressed their desire for other interests. That is social drives. In many ways convincing oneself that they never wanted children eases the regret of not having children. Many of these women then become very vocal about their choices and look for ways to support that decision as a way to combat the judgement and confusion of those who dont understand the choice. Saying that procreation isnt biological goes against everything science and religion is, no matter which you believe. Fact is, living beings have one proven purpose to exist. Everything outside of that is driven by social and cultural norms and expectations 1 Link to post Share on other sites
RecentChange Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Oh I just love it when men confidently state that women do not understand their own minds and their own emotions. Doesn’t matter what we say, the man knows what I really feel. Got it. Are there women who regret not having kids? Absolutely. Are there women who have children who should have NEVER had children, yep, we see lots of those. Are there women who admit the great taboo that they regretted having kids? Yes I have seen that one too (my mother in law is a lovely case in point “I should have had an abortion! I had kids to prove to my family I wasn’t a lesbian” – that’s a great reason to have kids). As hard as it may be for some to believe I have never wanted to be a mother. Now, I know that mothers love it, and it’s the greatest gift yadda – but I pity mothers. Their life style looks just miserable to me, just not something I would ever want. Just a freaking nightmare. I get it, great for them, they love it, they didn’t feel fulfilled otherwise – but not for me thanks. I have known I didn’t want children for as long I can remember. “Mother” is a role I never ever wanted, and is absolutely repelling to me. I always refused to play the “mom” when playing house as a kid, yuck! No not a mom. No no no not that. I equate it to how some people, from a young age understand that they are gay. That they are different than other people. For me, I have always been different than people who wanted children. I avoid kids, I really can’t stand being around them. Its not like “oh but you love your nieces and nephews right? Like spending time with them?” Nope. I am a horrible Aunt, I just don’t do kids. Beyond not liking children, finding pregnancy a disgusting horror, and not wanting anything to do with replicating myself (I am not so egotistical to believe that the word needs more of my genes), nor raising a human, nor adding more people to this world – I honestly wouldn’t trust myself not to abuse a kid. My disdain for them and lack of patients. No, kids for me thanks. My dad tells a story how I was about 10 years old when I declared I would never had kids -and it has never been questioned since. No family member has ever asked “When are you having kids?” they know I am never having kids. Any way, rant over. “We travel a lot” sounds like a terrible reason to not have kids. Kinda like a gay man marrying a woman because “well I like this kind of lifestyle”. Do men have this "biologically driven regret" for not having children, or is that unique to women according to the male experts here? 10 2 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 10 minutes ago, RecentChange said: “We travel a lot” sounds like a terrible reason to not have kids. I agree and if Woggle's wife is still of child bearing age then perhaps the subject needs to be considered and discussed a bit more deeply if some serious repercussions are to be avoided. "Travel" will never make up for the lack of children.... 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Yes, there are women like @RecentChange who genuinely do not want kids. But the vast majority of women do want kids. There's been a lot of social engineering in the West to suggest to women that they don't need kids and a career can be a good substitute. And the depopulation agenda is working: The United States’ birthrate fell for a fourth consecutive year in 2018, bringing the number of people born in the country to its lowest level in 32 years. For some women, a life without kids is preferable. For the majority, I think a career and active social/dating/sex life will never be a good substitute for being a mother. It might be too late for me to be a mother, but I hope not. If I don't have kids, I'll find other outlets for my nurturing energy, like helping disadvantaged kids, counseling and supporting people in need, etc. But I'm pretty sure the second half of my life and especially my golden years would be so much richer with kids and grandkids around me. My 83-year-old dad told me the other day that their lives are pretty quiet anymore, and the most exciting thing for them is when I visit. It's obviously they treasure my company like nothing else. Is it still possible for your wife to have kids and would you consider it? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, DKT3 said: Their are social and cultural factors that have forced or enticed people to defer children. However, even when the choice is made that drive still exists. Which is evident in this topic. We could have 1000 women come on this thread and say they never wanted children and I wouldn't believe one of them. Rather, they suppressed their desire for other interests. That is social drives. In many ways convincing oneself that they never wanted children eases the regret of not having children. Many of these women then become very vocal about their choices and look for ways to support that decision as a way to combat the judgement and confusion of those who dont understand the choice. One could say the same about those who had children or who want children, including men - that they were pressured into it by society and secretly regret it but are living in denial... but clearly, that would be as untrue as the statement you're making. Humans are a bit more varied than you think they are. Besides, biology and evolution are sciences. Personal beliefs are irrelevant. Religion has no place in a debate about "biology", as well. I do find it interesting that instead of debating my points, you are immediately jumping to ad hominems. Quote Saying that procreation isnt biological goes against everything science and religion is, no matter which you believe. Fact is, living beings have one proven purpose to exist. Everything outside of that is driven by social and cultural norms and expectations I'm seeing a lot of words but not a single source. Can you please cite a reputable work in evolutionary biology that supports your claim? Please be aware that "purpose" is a rather nebulous term. Certainly from the genes' point of view, you are correct (and if they could feel emotion, they would be really glad that you fell for it ;)). From the humans' point of view, not really. Four instance, if we reproduce beyond a certain point while not reducing emissions, we will all go extinct in the next century, with quite a lot of accompanying suffering in the meantime. We are not in a sustainable place and we haven't managed to leave the earth. So from this point of view, more reproduction isn't better. In the same way, cows are one of the most "successful" species in terms of reproduction due to being cultivated for milk or meat, but the individual cows in battery farms would disagree. There is no inherent "purpose" to a universe that will eventually die a heat death. Everyone chooses a purpose for themselves. For some people, that purpose is raising a family - and that's totally fine. For some, it is not. Edited January 14, 2020 by Elswyth 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 41 minutes ago, RecentChange said: Oh I just love it when men confidently state that women do not understand their own minds and their own emotions. Doesn’t matter what we say, the man knows what I really feel. Got it. I have to say, I never really thought mansplaining was a real problem until I came to LS, lol. Guess I was lucky in real life - or specifically chose not to interact with such males or the environments that foster them, I guess. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
lana-banana Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, DKT3 said: We could have 1000 women come on this thread and say they never wanted children and I wouldn't believe one of them. What is the most distressing part of this? The ignorance (insisting all women are liars), the arrogance (insisting you know them better than they know themselves), or the bragging about it? On the plus side, it saves you the trouble of responding - why bother when the other person's already determined not to believe anything you say? 6 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said: But I'm pretty sure the second half of my life and especially my golden years would be so much richer with kids and grandkids around me. This is a fair concern, and I think a big part of why some people choose to have kids. Personally, I did consider this factor, but it just wasn't enough to stand up against the huge maelstrom in me yelling "NOOOO!!!". 😂 I do think that anyone who strongly desires to be a parent should go for it. We only have one life after all, we will not have another chance to do the things that we want. If bio kids isn't possible, why not adoption? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 12 minutes ago, Elswyth said: If bio kids isn't possible, why not adoption? My ideal partner is someone who would try for bio kids with me, and consider adoption if it didn't work. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said: My ideal partner is someone who would try for bio kids with me, and consider adoption if it didn't work. maybe you already know him and he is on LS? 🤣 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 5 minutes ago, alphamale said: maybe you already know him and he is on LS? 🤣 Then he'd better PM me fast. Everybody here knows how much I love a go-getter 😏 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said: But I'm pretty sure the second half of my life and especially my golden years would be so much richer with kids and grandkids around me. I think that is the part that can hit some women when they get to the stage that they have probably left it too late. They start looking around at other women and other families. families with kids doing interesting things, with grandkids and suddenly they see there is something big missing. Woggle's wife is I guess at that stage, the niece helps but it is not the same. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
She's_NotInLove_w/Me Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 I genuinely cannot see a woman's perspective who does not wish to have children. But that assumes so many things. A trusted life partner, a positive relationship with that partner, sufficient means and health for both parents for the long term. In reality all those assumptions are ideal, but any one of them can change unexpectedly. Life is constantly changing. I even believe that bearing your own children is something that (though we think we have complete control of all sexuality and our bodies, etc) we really cannot control all of that completely - not to get overly religious - I am certainly not a devout church goer. Pregnancy happen when it happens. We can attempt to plan to a point. Or plan not to have children. But it happens when it happens, and or when you least expect to be planning to be pregnant. For example, our first daughter arrived 11 months after marriage, then our second daughter arrived 13 months after the first! Moving forward 20+ years - I was in shock when I was told my 21 yo daughter was pregnant - but after just a short time absorbing the news, our entire family was super super excited. I mean everyone was talking about being grandparents, aunts and uncles, etc, etc. She was living at home and her SO was in school a couple of states away. But we were all excited for 3+ months. But it was not to happen. She miscarried. We were all so super sad. Depressed. But, looking back a couple of years later the timing was not right for them anyways. She did go from one who always said she will not have kids (ever), to now having a different viewpoint. She is looking forward to marrying and having children when the time is right. I am a grandpa as her older sister has a daughter and another baby on the way - but she is married and is an RN and the time is right for her! As a father of five, children are the greatest blessing in my entire life. They make my life complete. special. worth while. My wife and my kids are my motivation to do everything I do! And finally, after typing all the above, I can understand that there are women who choose not to have children and that is OK. It surprises me and from my perspective it would be hard to believe, but I have to respect everyone's choice. The depth of responsibility in deciding to raise children is incredible. It may be one of the largest sacrifices one makes in their entire lifetime. But the rewards are also, without a doubt some of the largest rewards. As far as changing one's mind mid marriage - hey, it's all perspective - a strong marriage can figure these things out one way or another, and if not, the couple can choose to split. I always thought that is is far easier to divorce if there are no children involved. . . I could type about this subject much much more. My entire life has been dedicated to one woman and 5 children we raised (are still raising) together (plus the granddaughter and soon to be). I cannot imagine my life without them all. . . 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Woggle Posted January 14, 2020 Author Share Posted January 14, 2020 I asked her and she said that even though she has a maternal side and would love to be an aunt to her niece and friend's kids she knows deep down that full time parenthood is not for her and I know it is not for me. The travel thing might sound like a bad reason but when you have a list of places you want to visit with the love of your life that can clash with having to take care of kids. Also can people stop making generalizations. Not all women think the same anymore than all men think the same. When did it stop being good to see people as individuals? 4 Link to post Share on other sites
DKT3 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 The visceral reaction to my post kinda goes to my point about those women being very vocal. My point is misunderstood, I'm not saying that childless women regret not having children. I'm saying that at some point they desired children and suppressed that desire in pursuit of social drives ie career, fun, money or simply not feeling it's for them. That's why I say I would not believe any who said they NEVER wanted children. The drive to have children is a biological thing, that the female body will have regardless of the intellectual thought process. That drive HAS to be suppressed. Some women have a much stronger drive then other, but to suggest that one never had the drive or desire is not true no matter how loudly one protest. Link to post Share on other sites
Kitty Tantrum Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Some of us live in a fantasy world where social constructs are dogmatically re-categorized as innate human behavior in spite of literally everything that is known about LIFE ON EARTH, on every level. And some of us live in the reality where humans are recognized and understood as organisms driven largely by impulse and instinct, however complex. The very CONCEPT that humans have "evolved" a certain way DEPENDS on the mechanism of reproduction - and accounting for the limitations of human pregnancy and mortality, the survival of the species depends on the majority being subject to this biological imperative. That is LIFE. The thing that makes humans special is that we can CHOOSE differently. That is a matter of will, learning, conditioning, agency, choice - whatever you want to call it. The rising phenomenon of the child-free modern woman is a shining example of the ability of humans to not necessarily be ruled by their biological impulses. I'm not saying this is BAD. You don't have to get all defensive as if someone is judging you for your choices. But there's a huge difference between saying "this is a valid choice" (true) and saying that "because this is a valid choice then it only stands to reason that in a perfect world an equal number of people would choose this as any other choice" (LOL WRONG). 1 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Woggle said: The travel thing might sound like a bad reason but when you have a list of places you want to visit with the love of your life that can clash with having to take care of kids. OK but is the travel thing primarily your dream or hers? Could she be suppressing her desire to have kids to accommodate and please you perhaps? Some women are pretty good at that... Edited January 14, 2020 by elaine567 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Woggle Posted January 15, 2020 Author Share Posted January 15, 2020 She clearly seems to enjoy herself on our vacations and even suggests new places for us to go. In fact we are trying to figure where to go this summer. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 8 minutes ago, Woggle said: She clearly seems to enjoy herself on our vacations and even suggests new places for us to go. In fact we are trying to figure where to go this summer. you are close to Hawaii, have you two been there? Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 I remember back in 1994-1995. I was married and we used to hang out this one married couple that had found out they could never have bio children. We would see them at parties and such. One night there were kids at the party. the husband and his wife started crying in front of everyone, they were sad that they couldn't have their own kids. It really put the kaibosh on the party. I haven't seen or heard from that couple so I don't know what happened with them Link to post Share on other sites
The Outlaw Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 I used to want to get married and have a family of my own but I've passed on that for reasons I just won't explain. But I think that there's always going to be a regret over something we didn't or just couldn't do earlier in our lives. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 I got married at 28 with the intention of starting a family. my wife turned out to be a wacko-nut-job. oh well, shyt happens Link to post Share on other sites
Author Woggle Posted January 15, 2020 Author Share Posted January 15, 2020 My first wife and I discussed having kids. Thank god that didn't happen. Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 I was married once. I knew it was a mistake when I realized I would never want to have kids with him. Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 2 hours ago, The Outlaw said: I used to want to get married and have a family of my own but I've passed on that for reasons I just won't explain. But I think that there's always going to be a regret over something we didn't or just couldn't do earlier in our lives. I try to let go of regrets and embrace the life I'm in. Easier said than done, but life's much better if you can manage to enjoy it. Link to post Share on other sites
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