Ruby Slippers Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 The generalizations about dads aren't fair. My recent ex has always worked hard in his career, paid all the household and kid expenses and his ex-wife didn't work while they were married. Toward the end of the marriage, on top of a demanding career, he was driving her to nursing school every day so she could get a good education and career. Though after the divorce years ago she now works, makes good money, and is remarried, he still pays all his grown kids' college tuition and other expenses, $300 a month to fly and visit them, plus many other expenses for them. He absolutely dotes on them and goes out of his way to make sure they're well taken care of. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BettyDraper Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 On 1/18/2020 at 4:44 PM, mark clemson said: So - single fathers? Single fathers are comparatively rare because mothers usually end up with the children when a relationship ends. Exceptions are not rules. Link to post Share on other sites
BettyDraper Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 On 1/18/2020 at 5:13 PM, Woggle said: I fully support women in whatever choice they want to make in life but I am not with the father bashing either. It’s not “bashing” to speak the truth. Women are typically the custodial parents. When one parent stays home with the child(ren), it’s usually the mother who has to give up her career to do so. Working moms still do most of the housework and childrearing as well. These are well documented facts. I am not saying that every dad does absolutely no parenting. That would be ridiculous. It’s just that the vast majority of fathers are not as involved in parenting as mothers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Ok, so there are exceptions. Fair enough. Robert posted above we should keep this thread on topic so I will drop this point. You're certainly not wrong in general. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BettyDraper Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Just now, mark clemson said: Ok, so there are exceptions. Fair enough. Robert posted above we should keep this thread on topic so I will drop this point. You're certainly not wrong in general. Thank you. I’m glad you understand. Exceptions are irrelevant because of their rarity. Link to post Share on other sites
RecentChange Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 On 1/18/2020 at 3:38 PM, mrs rubble said: One of my friends chose to never have children, she's a huge animal lover who is vegan because of her love for animals. She recently said to me that she felt so alone. She's estranged from her parents, her sister lives on the other side of the world and she has no partner, she voiced regrets over never having children, and wondered what will happen to her in old age..... I kind of wish she had children, because I'll be the one comforting her when the dogs go, and I'll be the one feeding her animals when she goes to Hospital. Children are no guarantee that someone won't be alone in life. Or find themselves with a safety net. This summer I spent a lot of time at a hospice center. I was there for my friend, he has two children, they weren't there. They didn't visit, they didn't take care of him, he was stuck in a crappy facility for his last months on Earth because no one in his family could be troubled with his care. And he is far from the only one there at that facility in that situation. My own mother died alone. She too was estranged from her family - well my brother and I kept contact with her as much as we could. With her mental illness it was an uphill battle. Now of course, there were some wonderful loving families at the hospice center. Kids who came every day and took care of their parent. My point is - having a kid isn't a guarantee that they will be there for you later in life. Being as your friend is estranged from her family - does that mean she is not there taking care of her parents? Making sure that they are not lonely and have their needs met etc? And if not, why should one believe her child would do for her, what she isn't doing for her parents? 6 Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 21 hours ago, RecentChange said: Children are no guarantee that someone won't be alone in life. Or find themselves with a safety net. This summer I spent a lot of time at a hospice center. I was there for my friend, he has two children, they weren't there. They didn't visit, they didn't take care of him, he was stuck in a crappy facility for his last months on Earth because no one in his family could be troubled with his care. Very true. I have some old family friends who were great parents, sacrificed a lot for their kids well into adulthood, and the kids have nothing to do with them. Also, "so I won't be alone when I'm old" is not a good reason to have kids. It's a lot of people's rationale, but it's selfish and there are no guarantees they'll be around. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) On 1/21/2020 at 12:33 PM, BettyDraper said: It’s just that the vast majority of fathers are not as involved in parenting as mothers. Busting one's butt every day to pay the bills is parenting. "Parenting or child rearing is the process of promoting and supporting the physical, emotional, social, and intellectual development of a child from infancy to adulthood." Providing money for housing, transportation, food, and the many other essentials of life is a foundational element of parenting. Most mothers wouldn't have the luxury of doing their preferred form of parenting their kids without the father working hard to provide for them all. Edited January 22, 2020 by Ruby Slippers Link to post Share on other sites
RecentChange Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 4 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said: Busting one's butt every day to pay the bills is parenting. "Parenting or child rearing is the process of promoting and supporting the physical, emotional, social, and intellectual development of a child from infancy to adulthood." Providing money for housing, transportation, food, and the many other essentials of life is a foundational element of parenting. Most mothers wouldn't have the luxury of doing their preferred form of parenting their kids without the father working hard to provide for them all. I kinda disagree with this. That is being a provider not a parent in my opinion. One of my best friends growing up had major "daddy issues" and acted out the ways one might expect. Promiscuous, lent her time and attention to abusive men, struggled with self esteem and feelings of unworthiness (despite being stunning in so many aspects). Her father was a very good provider - a top notch attorney that was married to his job. My friend never wanted for anything, the family lived in a beautiful home, had a ski cabin, best horses, best college paid for etc. But he was NEVER AROUND. It was always clear that work came first, and kids a distant second. I just can't help but to think she wouldn't have struggled that way if she had a dad that was involved like mine was. My dad was an outlier, he spent more time with me than my mother did, and was very involved in all aspects of my life. He was not only a provider, but also a parent. Question - lets say a man takes a job in another country, is never home, but sends money so that the kids have housing, transportation etc. Does that mean he is a very good parent? What about sending a kid off to boarding school? Does that equate to good parenting because its something they have provided for financially? How about hiring an Au Pair? Where is the line between actual involvement in the child's life, and paying for a child's care when it comes to parenting? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Ruby Slippers Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, RecentChange said: Question - lets say a man takes a job in another country, is never home, but sends money so that the kids have housing, transportation etc. Does that mean he is a very good parent? I'm not saying that providing is all there is to parenting. Your example is an extreme end of the spectrum. I take issue with the suggestion that a father isn't parenting as much as a mother, doesn't "go through as much" because he's not providing direct child care. I agree that it's ridiculous for any man to suggest that women who say they don't want kids don't know their own minds and hearts. But I don't agree that fathers "don't go through as much" on behalf of their kids. Link to post Share on other sites
CAPITAL CROOK Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 On 1/14/2020 at 12:38 PM, DKT3 said: Their are social and cultural factors that have forced or enticed people to defer children. However, even when the choice is made that drive still exists. Which is evident in this topic. We could have 1000 women come on this thread and say they never wanted children and I wouldn't believe one of them. Rather, they suppressed their desire for other interests. That is social drives. In many ways convincing oneself that they never wanted children eases the regret of not having children. Many of these women then become very vocal about their choices and look for ways to support that decision as a way to combat the judgement and confusion of those who dont understand the choice. Saying that procreation isnt biological goes against everything science and religion is, no matter which you believe. Fact is, living beings have one proven purpose to exist. Everything outside of that is driven by social and cultural norms and expectations I agree 100% and have saw many times before, the previous justifications a woman once used become invalid. Furthermore, I believe a woman is doing herself a favor by having her eggs froze even though she may not want children in this part of her life; it is almost unfair for the 20 year old 'you' to decide the 45 year old 'you' does not want children. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mrs rubble Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 22 hours ago, RecentChange said: Children are no guarantee that someone won't be alone in life. Or find themselves with a safety net. This summer I spent a lot of time at a hospice center. I was there for my friend, he has two children, they weren't there. They didn't visit, they didn't take care of him, he was stuck in a crappy facility for his last months on Earth because no one in his family could be troubled with his care. And he is far from the only one there at that facility in that situation. My own mother died alone. She too was estranged from her family - well my brother and I kept contact with her as much as we could. With her mental illness it was an uphill battle. Now of course, there were some wonderful loving families at the hospice center. Kids who came every day and took care of their parent. My point is - having a kid isn't a guarantee that they will be there for you later in life. Being as your friend is estranged from her family - does that mean she is not there taking care of her parents? Making sure that they are not lonely and have their needs met etc? And if not, why should one believe her child would do for her, what she isn't doing for her parents? She was abused pretty badly as a child, and was shifted around through foster care. She didn't meet her birth father until she was 25, so no she isn't taking care of her parents. I don't blame her one little bit. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
RecentChange Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 9 minutes ago, mrs rubble said: She was abused pretty badly as a child, and was shifted around through foster care. She didn't meet her birth father until she was 25, so no she isn't taking care of her parents. I don't blame her one little bit. Totally understandable, many parents aren't suitable parents. If she had kids maybe she would have been able to break the cycle, but on the other hand - maybe not. Doesn't sound like she had a solid upbringing that would have exemplified good parenting for her to model after. Some people are able to overcome cycles of abuse etc, but others are not despite their best intentions. I believe Woggle stated this as a reason he didn't want to have children. As for myself, while I have a father that is absolutely amazing, and a step mother that joined our lives in our teen years who is also wonderful.... My mother, she was part of a cycle of abuse. Her grandparents to her mother, her mother to her, and she to my older siblings. She DID NOT WANT TO BE THAT PERSON, but sometimes the resources, the strength, the mental health isn't there to help someone break the cycle. I don't blame children of abusive homes at all for choosing not to become parents. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) This topic always draws a lot of people that get very touchy over it....I get it... The people that never had kids could say 100% that they never wanted, but this is one of those things that only doing it could give someone that perspective....It would be like me saying sex sucks and isn't for me, despite being celibate my whole life...It wouldn't make any sense then...and most people would point that out...With this topic they generally don't though, because its sensitive...I get that...its completely understandable...They just accept that persons word and that's it... Most women I know either had or wanted to have kids....Even if they didn't there is some feeling of regret, even if very small....May not rule their lives, but they do feel a bit perhaps like the OP"s wife...What if?? I've witnessed my own daughter show "motherly" instincts even as a toddler...Fawning over babies and such in a way a doting mother would...She still does as a teen now..So I don't know about those that want to make the argument that a biological aspect doesn't exist...I tend to disagree... As someone that was probably close to sure parenthood wasn't for me, when it happened it was a complete reversal...Zero regret and easily the best thing that ever happened to me....So could you say the same could happen to others in my shoes that had the same feeling pre kids? I would think so.... As for the OP..the only thing I hope for him is that she doesn't go in the tank over all the regret...Ive seen that happen.. TFY Edited January 23, 2020 by thefooloftheyear Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said: The people that never had kids could say 100% that they never wanted, but this is one of those things that only doing it could give someone that perspective....It would be like me saying sex sucks and isn't for me, despite being celibate my whole life...It wouldn't make any sense then...and most people would point that out... It's not really the same thing, because sex is something that you can always just try, and (as long as you have safe sex) if you decide you don't like sex you can just not have sex again, without much repercussion. You can't exactly do that with having kids, because it's irreversible. And yes, there are absolutely parents who have said that they wish they could, but they are stuck. For every person with your story, there is a less-publicized person with a different story. You don't hear much about this in real life because of the huge amount of stigma involved, but I have personally spoken to a few people IRL who privately said that they regretted having kids, and there are places online where these people talk about their stories anonymously. Frankly, it's heartbreaking. Both for them and for the kids involved. A more apt analogy would be someone saying "I don't want to live in North Korea or Syria", despite never having been there. Sure, ideally they'd go and see what North Korea or Syria is 'really' like before making that statement, but nobody would say that they're "not making sense" when they refuse to try. Edited January 23, 2020 by Elswyth 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 On 1/18/2020 at 3:03 PM, BettyDraper said: It's easy for men to say that they want children. Compared to women, men barely go through anything with respect to being parents. Men do not endure pregnancy, childbirth, or breastfeeding. Men do not do the amount of childcare that women do. The societal burden of raising a well adjusted child does not fall to fathers. Parenting just isn't the same for men so they can't accurately speak on motherhood. I do think that in this day and age, things are getting better and more equal in this aspect. However, IMO you're still absolutely right - 100% of the biological burden and on average ~70% (according to statistical surveys) of the parental burden falls on women. I think that as long as the individual woman wants it, that's okay, but it's certainly a reason why women tend to be more polarized on their views re: whether or not they want kids, than men are - because it's a bigger decision that would affect their life more. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) On 1/18/2020 at 12:03 AM, BettyDraper said: I It's easy for men to say that they want children. Compared to women, men barely go through anything with respect to being parents. Men do not endure pregnancy, childbirth, or breastfeeding. Men do not do the amount of childcare that women do. The societal burden of raising a well adjusted child does not fall to fathers. Parenting just isn't the same for men so they can't accurately speak on motherhood. P Complete horse shyt here,...^^ Most guys I know, myself included,. made enormous sacrifices for their kids...While their wives stayed at home(yes, shocking I know), they were working all the hours they could get...They sent the wife and kids on vacation for a week, while he could only come out for a day or two(had to work)...Most sold off possessions and gave up most or all of their passions for a better life for their kids...They get a slap on the back and a cheap tie on fathers day... It could be argued that a man's life is shortened because of the stresses of making sure their kids(and wives) lives are easier... And a "well adjusted child:" is the responsibility of BOTH parents...Failure on either level(and just because a woman has the biological parts to carry a child) doesn't qualify her to be a proper mother....There are millions of piece of shyt women out there screwing up their kids lives in spite of all the efforts of the fathers... TFY Edited January 23, 2020 by thefooloftheyear Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 13 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said: Most guys I know, myself included,. made enormous sacrifices for their kids...While their wives stayed at home(yes, shocking I know), they were working all the hours they could get...They sent the wife and kids on vacation for a week, while he could only come out for a day or two(had to work)... I think this is true back in the "old days", and perhaps among more traditional folks - my grandfather certainly worked 16 hr days to support his family, and I don't envy him. But things are very different in my social circle (modern professionals). The women typically work, and many still do the lion's share of childcare and household chores after work. Complete SAHMs are very rare among the couples I know - at most the woman would scale down to part-time, or go back to work after the kid starts school. Also, in the case of the few men I know who ARE supporting their families 100%, their jobs are honestly not particularly taxing. They spend most of their time at a desk, and they work fairly reasonable hours. They probably do cut down on luxury expenses and expensive hobbies, but the women do as well, in addition to all the other one-sided sacrifices. Also, as a woman who works full-time, I'll take my job ANY DAY over having to take care of kids, lol. Quote There are millions of piece of shyt women out there screwing up their kids lives in spite of all the efforts of the fathers... There are definitely a lot of parents out there who shouldn't be one. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Elswyth said: Also, as a woman who works full-time, I'll take my job ANY DAY over having to take care of kids, lol. Yep....I guess you've done both so you should know the difference...🙄 There are no guys I know "around here" yes....here....now.... that don't sacrifice enormously for their kids....More guys than I can even count would have left their miserable shrew of a wife but chose to instead stay, sleep on a couch, eat take out junk food, and deal with all the crap for the sake of keeping a stable home for their kids...For these guys they'd have probably chosen prison instead but wouldn't want to disrupt their kids lives... Men don't complain....that;s the problem...while women make sport of it... You need to get out a little more and talk to some people outside of your circle..You may be surprised to hear what people really have to say... TFY Edited January 23, 2020 by thefooloftheyear Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said: Yep....I guess you've done both so you should know the difference...🙄 Yes, I have actually done both - young women were often co-opted (read: forced) into babysitting their relatives' kids in my culture, so I've had my fair share before I managed to leave home. Have YOU taken care of young kids all day before? I mean ALL day, 24/7, not for an hour or two after you get home. Quote There are no guys I know "around here" yes....here....now.... that don't sacrifice enormously for their kids....More guys than I can even count would have left their miserable shrew of a wife but chose to instead stay, sleep on a couch, eat take out junk food, and deal with all the crap for the sake of keeping a stable home for their kids...For these guys they'd have probably chosen prison instead but wouldn't want to disrupt their kids lives... Do you think there are no women who do this? Quote You need to get out a little more and talk to some people outside of your circle..You may be surprised to hear what people really have to say... Maybe you need to do the same? How many women have you really talked to, besides your ex-wife and daughter? In most developed countries, manual labour is decreasing. It's not a stretch to say that the average person in 2020 has a much less taxing job than the average person in 1920. Edited January 23, 2020 by Elswyth Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) On 1/23/2020 at 12:06 PM, Elswyth said: Yes, I have actually done both - young women were often co-opted (read: forced) into babysitting their relatives' kids in my culture, so I've had my fair share before I managed to leave home. Have YOU taken care of young kids all day before? I mean ALL day, 24/7, not for an hour or two after you get home. Do you think there are no women who do this? Maybe you need to do the same? How many women have you really talked to, besides your ex-wife and daughter? In most developed countries, manual labour is decreasing. It's not a stretch to say that the average person in 2020 has a much less taxing job than the average person in 1920. All I will say to this is when its not your own kid(s) then you cant say what it is or isn't ...Relative or not, its just not the same...You can say whatever you want, but that's the fact.. Its freezing cold here now...And not only here in the most developed country in the world, also the most affluent part of that country,...And yet,,,there are guys all over the place out there...Laying on their backs in the snow and ice getting people out of ditches with their cars...Fixing trucks and roads...Building houses and buildings....And they'll be there also when its 100 degrees and blistering hot,...And what about all the guys that worked tirelessly to contain the Australian bush fires?..It actually IS a stretch to say what you are saying...What you are saying is a total insult to those men that are out there every day making sure you have power and water, etc.. Its not a men vs women competition...What women do isn't questioned nor am I questioning it,,, TFY Edited February 5, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) On 1/23/2020 at 12:22 PM, thefooloftheyear said: All I will say to this is when its not your own kid(s) then you cant say what it is or isn't ...Relative or not, its just not the same...You can say whatever you want, but that's the fact.. Going by that logic, no adopted parents would ever truly be parents... but they are. Far moreso than the biological "parents" that dumped the child. Regardless... have you DONE it? Quote And what about all the guys that worked tirelessly to contain the Australian bush fires? Some of those "guys" are women: https://www.nowtolove.com.au/news/local-news/female-firefighters-australia-62052 Quote ..It actually IS a stretch to say what you are saying...What you are saying is a total insult to those men that are out there every day making sure you have power and water, etc.. Besides the fact that, again, many of those "men" are actually women... Do you understand what "on average" means? Edited February 5, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I think my post is awaiting mod approval due to the link of female firefighters that I posted... I do agree that this is probably off-topic. I am going to stop now, partly because I have work to do, and partly because I feel like I'm arguing with my dad, which is not an experience I particularly want to recreate. 😂 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Woggle Posted January 23, 2020 Author Share Posted January 23, 2020 If somebody doesn't want kids I will believe them. It is a big decision that should never be made lightly. On the subject of men contributing I 100% agree with the guys on here. I honestly would rather have the blatant and in your face misandry then the subtle sniping you see sometimes. Truth be told it is better that those who hold these views don't reproduce especially if they might have a son. You can't fully love your child and hate who they are which includes their gender. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Elswyth said: I don't think she was saying that men "do nothing" in general, just that the burden of parenthood is often unequal. Unfortunately, as of now this is a fact - even in the most equal relationship (and most are not, in terms of childcare), women are the ones risking their lives and suffering for a year to carry the child. Hopefully in the future this will change. FYI "In 2015, for example, there were 4,836 workplace deaths, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Of those, 4,492 were men, and 344 were women. In other words, men suffered 93% of workplace fatalities that year. This wasn't some aberration. From 2011 through 2015, men accounted for 92.5% of all workplace deaths." I wont bother with the military deaths and severe injuries, but the stats are probably even more one sided...And surely many fathers and grandfathers working to support wives and kids.. But yeah...tell me again about the risks and suffering.... Funny part about that is one of the nurses on staff when my daughter was born was banging on and on about how women make such a big fuss about childbirth and what a big deal they make it out to be,,,,she said both her children were born in the house with no drugs and a midwife, she worked up until the day before delivery and went to work shortly after...She was Asian, I am guessing Korean but I dunno... TFY Edited January 24, 2020 by thefooloftheyear Link to post Share on other sites
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