My guy and I had a few drinks before dinner last night and he had too much and was being a jerk

[Angelflower]

Ok I am confused. With more details I can totally understand why you got mad and wanted to end it... So why are you still engaging with him? Why did you relent on the block? Again… are you playing games? Is because of the sex? 

[Ruby Slippers]

45 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

Hey Ruby, I just discovered this thread today because I almost never read Breaking Up. Something you wrote on Cookies' thread in Dating about her taking a trip to Chicago with one of her 'new' guys got me to track this thread down.

Thank you for your feedback! 

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how great the sex was (over and over).

Yes, I was too focused on the great sex - a mistake to avoid in the future.
 

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So what I'm curious about is, whether prior to the fight, you had posted anything that YOU thought would have tipped off readers here on LS that there were issues, whether those issues were about comparing/objectifying women or anything else. If you had posted any hints, well, mea culpa for being oblivious.

Not really. We had some moderate disagreements before, but nothing like this. He had been rude before, but never this rude. I was really taken aback by how out of line he was on that night. Looking back, of course you see the hints leading up to it, but there was nothing to warn me he'd act like this.

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The difference, at least for me and many other men, is I/we explicitly try to be discreet about it ... don't stare, don't say a word of admiration of the other woman nor a word of comparison or criticism, and certainly don't make any attempts to contact another woman. 

Well, yeah. That's the difference. Everybody looks at other people, and there's nothing wrong with that. Staring in a lustful way is another matter altogether, and he kept doing that, all through the night. He's done it before and I talked to him about it, and then he snapped back hard to the point of hardly looking at anybody. This night he got real lax about it.

[Ruby Slippers]

30 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

You, like me, will absorb the disrespect and the hurt in order to maintain the status quo, but things have shifted slightly and you will slowly find you gave up more here than you think you have.

No, this is why my bar is now so high, and why I'm relishing my position of confidence. I'm not trying to hurt him. But I'm not letting him hurt me again. I'll be fine with or without him.

I told him that if we try again, it's going to be very different and we're going to have to start from the beginning. Basically, he's going to be dating a different person. I really went through something during all this, kind of like when Wonder Woman taps into her true powers. That's why I want to watch that movie with my mom! If he doesn't want to be with the new, more strong and powerful me, I said fine, I wish him every happiness and success in life and love, and I mean it. I know he won't get far unless he resolves some of these issues. But those are not my issues to resolve. 

I'm not going to meet him today. After tiptoeing around and asking if he could come over last night - and he'd be happy to sleep on the couch - he didn't even text good night. This may seem trifling, but right now, I think all that really matters is how I feel. My feelings toward him are telling me everything I need to know. Yesterday I felt good that he finally humbled himself and was really trying to rectify things.

Last night, after he didn't say good night after brazenly (in the guise of "politely") inviting himself over, I felt absolutely blah toward him. Like, again, he's trying to get something and give nothing (or failing to give what I want and need), trying to skate by on the bare minimum. He doesn't understand that I've raised my bar, as a direct result of his bad behavior, even though I told him that pretty clearly. He did 9 things right yesterday and 1 thing wrong, and given the current climate, the 1 misstep turned me right off.

I'm going to text him and tell him I'm not going to meet him today, and when he asks why, I'll tell him. I'm pretty sure he'll try to convince me, but I don't feel I should be convinced. Today is a new day and he has another chance to come correct. If he doesn't have it in him to be considerate, a gentleman, I'm no longer interested, period.

[Happy Lemming]

1 hour ago, salparadise said:

And now that you're talking about reconciling and you know you have the upper hand, you seem to be taking some pleasure in making him jump through hoops ("I'm making it clear he'll have to come correct or be corrected. I must admit this is fun").

Yes... I kind of feel like "Ruby" is treating this guy like a "trained seal".  Jump through this hoop, now this one, and now this one... 

The fact that you think "this is fun" is very telling and disappointing.

Personally, I would lose respect for any individual that would jump through hoops. You may actually change what is at his core and as "Sal" pointed out, you may turn him into a "puddle of protoplasm".  I was thinking more along the line of "spineless jelly fish" but basically the same thing.

When I was in my mid to late 20's I learned a very valuable lesson.  I have few regrets in life, but one is "begging" one particular woman to come back to me (after she dumped me).  We had met (post breakup at a coffee shop) and I found myself "jumping through hoops" and "agreeing to all manner of crap" for one more chance.  Then she added "another hoop" for me to jump through and a light went off in my head.  I felt like a trained seal clapping for some fish at the end of a trick.  The adult male in me finally kicked in and I got up (mid sentence) [from the table] and left. She asked "Where did I think I was going?" and I just kept walking. No woman was worth trading my dignity for.  It was a very valuable lesson I learned and one I've carried with me the rest of my life.  I will apologize if I make a mistake, but I will only apologize once for that incident and will try not to repeat the offense.  I will never "beg" and will never "jump through hoops". 

To Ruby... I've lost all dignity for your guy, he is not the man I thought he was.

[Ruby Slippers]

Just now, Happy Lemming said:

She asked "Where did I think I was going?" and I just kept walking. 

I would never do that. Unless he wants to atone and the drive to do so comes from within, it has zero value to me. I'm not grasping at him to do anything. I'm simply defending my own dignity.

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To Ruby... I've lost all dignity for your guy, he is not the man I thought he was.

I have felt that way at times. But now I've managed to view him outside the romantic context as a flawed, foibled human being like the rest of us. I think the problem is that with his material success, good looks, relative charm, intelligence, and so on, it's been pretty easy for him to get women - at least for a while. He's never had to work on this stuff.

And yes, I totally realize he may NEVER do this, because he doesn't really have to. He can get chicks, easily. Some women throw themselves at him - not the kind of women he really wants, but female companionship will never be hard for this guy to come by.

Many people never address and overcome their deep-seated s***, and maybe he'll be one of those. Nothing I can do about that. I'm focusing on maintaining the atmosphere around myself that I want. If he has nothing to contribute to that, there's no point.

[Happy Lemming]

5 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

 a flawed, foibled human being like the rest of us.

Yes... I'll be the first to admit I am "flawed" and "human"... like the rest of the population.

I was talking to my girlfriend last night about your thread and she admitted there was one point in our relationship where she thought about ending it.  She said I was going through an "angry phase" and didn't like being around me.  I don't remember ever being "angry" or having an "angry phase" and she couldn't remember specifics or the time frame.

Any who... My girlfriend didn't say anything to me nor did she end the relationship, she figured she'd give me some time to work through it on my own, which (apparently) I did. In the future, (if I go through another "angry phase") I would hope my girlfriend would tell me before she broke up with me.

I think I would agree with the other poster that when your guy made rude comments, that you pull him to the side.  Tell him that you were hurt by the "comparison" comments and that it upset you.  If he continued, then you know he was doing it to purposely inflict pain and degrade you.

[Shining One]

11 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Question: I'm thinking it will be best to ask him if he minds going Dutch, at least for a while, or take turns paying when we meet up somewhere.

While he paid for more of our dating expenses than I did, I paid for lots of things. At first I felt like he appreciated that, but then he seemed to be almost keeping score and kind of suggesting I was paying for too many things, as if he felt uneasy about it.

My rationale is that this will keep the playing field level. I don't think he felt entitled or owed anything because of the way expenses were handled. But maybe he did. I feel like if we go Dutch, then this won't be a factor and it'll be safer that way. What do you think?

While this would certainly level the playing field, doesn't paying for dates kill your sexual attraction?  

On 1/19/2019 at 2:32 PM, Ruby Slippers said:

If I were dripping wet for the man, and he didn't pay for certain things, I would literally dry up.

I realize you're not planning on having sex with him for the foreseeable future until the issues have been addressed, but wouldn't killing your sexual attraction automatically doom this endeavor? It seems like you would be trading one potential problem (his sense of being owed) for another (your lack of sexual interest).

[FMW]

Ruby Slippers, just remember that being a strong, smart woman is about being in touch with ourselves and reading the signs along the way and acting accordingly.  The bar shouldn't need to be raised for his behavior, it should have been in a reasonable position to begin with.  Meaning, speaking up along the way when your boundaries have been pushed and not letting things get to the big break up stage before you enforce them.

I know you don't mean it to, but it does sound like you are now going to make him jump through hoops and beg a little in order to get you back.  From what you've written in the past, that doesn't seem like what you would be happy with.  That's not a strong man/receptive feminine dynamic.  That's not a strong, smart woman thing either.  It's kind of a naughty boy/punishing mommy thing.

Being strong and smart shows in our actions - not our proclamations.  And we all slip up from time to time, no shame in that, we just have to keep working on it. 

I do hope this works out in whatever way is best for you, whether that's working things out or moving on.    

  

[Ruby Slippers]

32 minutes ago, Shining One said:

While this would certainly level the playing field, doesn't paying for dates kill your sexual attraction?  

Good question. It's a philosophical discussion, I suppose. I don't think it's the man actually paying that has ever turned me on. It's knowing that he could, him showing me that I'll never be burdened with carrying him along as dead weight financially.

Because from the beginning with this guy, I felt a strong compulsion to demonstrate to him that I was also able to pay my own way, that he'd never be burdened with me as financial dead weight, and I did. He seemed to appreciate that, but as time went on, he resisted it a bit more and wanted to take on more of the expenses.

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I realize you're not planning on having sex with him for the foreseeable future until the issues have been addressed, but wouldn't killing your sexual attraction automatically doom this endeavor? It seems like you would be trading one potential problem (his sense of being owed) for another (your lack of sexual interest).

I once told him I loved him so much that I'd live with him in a tent under a bridge. Of course, it doesn't escape me that it's attractive knowing I'll never have to. But that's how much I just simply like him - or liked him. 

Also, our animal attraction is such that if I were the kind of woman to have casual encounters, he'd be a good candidate even for that. In other words, he's sexually attractive to me even removed from any aspects of character, accomplishment, etc. We just have that animal attraction.

[Ruby Slippers]

17 minutes ago, Finding my way said:

The bar shouldn't need to be raised for his behavior, it should have been in a reasonable position to begin with.  Meaning, speaking up along the way when your boundaries have been pushed and not letting things get to the big break up stage before you enforce them.  

This was my mistake. My bar was too low. I was trying to be "realistic" and not expect the moon. I guess I lowered the bar more than I should have. All I can do now is admit that and be true to myself NOW.

He and I are communicating. I just explained this to him and said if I'm no longer the kind of woman he's looking for, just leave me in peace and find another woman. This ordeal has changed me in some ways - for the better, I feel.

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I know you don't mean it to, but it does sound like you are now going to make him jump through hoops and beg a little in order to get you back.  From what you've written in the past, that doesn't seem like what you would be happy with.  That's not a strong man/receptive feminine dynamic.  That's not a strong, smart woman thing either.  It's kind of a naughty boy/punishing mommy thing.

I don't think so. I wouldn't want him to beg, and at no point has he. 

I get the impression that his primary concern right now is how fast he's going to get me back into bed - another conquest of the ego. I told him plainly that if he doesn't see the appeal of spending time with me even without sex, then there's no hope for us, so please just move on.

This isn't about jumping through hoops. It's about being true to myself and not giving anything he hasn't made me feel happy and safe to give.

[Ruby Slippers]

I'm at my parents'. My dad asked for the story. My parents have met him and he and my dad really got along. 

He said #1: he won't change and will keep acting this way anytime he drinks, and #2: he thinks I'm a little out of his league in terms of looks and character and he can't handle it, is trying to put me down out of fear of losing me. 

He thinks I should put him on ice until he gets back from his business trip in 3 weeks, give him some time to think about what he's done and what he wants to do from here.

My mom generally agrees. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Ruby Slippers

[Ruby Slippers]

It occurred to me: The irony is my mom and dad have exactly this same dynamic and she's endured it for almost 50 years. She still occasionally gets fed up and leaves, gets herself a hotel room for the night. 

A part of me feels sorry for my ex. I know what it's like to sabotage good things because deep down you don't feel worthy or ready. I hope he can find it within himself to rise to the occasion, but right now it kinda sounds like a fantasy. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Ruby Slippers

[Artdeco]

I agree with your parents. 
He’ll most likely always be an ass when he drinks. And even if he doesn’t drink. And he’s too old to change. And if he’s got self esteem issues or insecurity issues that’s not gonna change either. He even sometimes displays this behavior when he doesn’t drink. But here’s the thing - you won’t believe it until you know it. It’s something you need to experience directly, for a few more months or even years. We best learn from our own mistakes. Very seldom do we learn from what others have experienced, especially if we still have hope (And you clearly do) ..... It won’t stick if we don’t go through it ourselves. But yes, your parents are most likely right. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Artdeco

[Artdeco]

Never meant to share this: I had a very similar experience about 15 years ago. A little worse than yours, but there was also an alcohol related incident early on. I kept making excuses, despite all the advice I got. And then there were more alcohol-related incidents and a number of little incidents that didn’t involve booze. And why did I make excuses? Yes, sex was a reason. Yes, the guy was admired left and right, and held a powerful position. A ladies man. Money. Flattery ..... I now regret not breaking it off sooner. But I never listened to others. Anyways, I can very much relate to your story and I’ve been eating it up ever since you started writing about it. 

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

16 minutes ago, Artdeco said:

But here’s the thing - you won’t believe it until you know it. It’s something you need to experience directly, for a few more months or even years. We best learn from our own mistakes. Very seldom do we learn from what others have experienced, especially if we still have hope (And you clearly do) ..... It won’t stick if we don’t go through it ourselves. 

Agree.  I think RS is gonna end up taking this guy back and the same thing will happen.

My exH was very much like this.  I excused it for years and years and years.  Now I can't even imagine dating someone who was so overtly sexual and beyond flirtatious with women who were my friends and even relatives.  

[Ruby Slippers]

My ex from a year ago emailed me over Christmas, sent me a present (which I'm returning), said he still loves me and always will. Our sex life was also through the roof, with a different dynamic. I'm not getting back with him - but it was a nice reminder that if it's hot sex I want, or fun, or whatever, I can get it easily.

I'm compelled to give my ex a second chance because I genuinely love him, even with his flaws. 

That doesn't mean I'm going to. I can't and won't take the demeaning treatment. Right now I'm not quite sure what to do - but I'm prepared to do whatever I need to do, including walk away if that's the best course of action. 

[LivingWaterPlease]

Ruby,  your most recent post with added description of the incident you endured with your ex served to further convince me of what I believed when you first wrote about it.

Basically, you're a sensitive woman and he's a very insensitive man who probably also grew up in an insensitive culture. Could be just the culture of his home life, could be more far reaching than that. That doesn't make him unkind and it doesn't make you a better person than he. It just means he's way at the end of a spectrum that you're farther to the other end of. Thus, the animal attraction.

You can't make him into a male version of yourself and I'm not suggesting you want to. What your dad told you is correct. This is who he is and who he'll always be.  

When he was crudely and crassly, sorry don't mean to offend, pointing out the swinger woman's breasts in the restaurant he may have honestly thought that by telling you yours were better you should be flattered. IOW as offensive as he was he was actually attempting to be nice. The reason it didn't come off that way is because he is clueless about a lot of things. Just as some of us may not be good at math, or music or whatever, he is not good at refinement. He's done well in his career because he's in a more male dominated field with many, not all, who are also insensitive. His insensitivity has probably been an asset in the work force. That's not to say there aren't women in his field (probably more now than twenty years ago) and not to say all men in this field are insensitive, meaning clueless about refinement in this case. That's also not to say that his insensitivity would serve him well in many other careers at a high level. It just works with what he does for a living.

A man who is both accomplished and sensitive would not be continuing to pursue you with the hoops you're wanting this man to jump through. The reason he keeps trying to jump through them is, of course, he wants you. But, also, you're not hurting his feelings because, again, he's insensitive. He can probably take as much as you can dish out. That doesn't mean it's not painful for him to be without you. Which could mean you guys could cycle through these type incidents for years and he'd hang in there. He's also far more secure than you believe he is. 

This guy can't help who he is, basically. You can teach him a few things, not to point out other women's body parts to you, etc. He can learn that. But he can't learn how not to be crass. There are a million ways to be crude and it would take you a long time to point out all of them to him. I realize his crassness has only been demonstrated when drunk. But, it's still there. The level he sunk to that you described is obnoxious and quite frankly in your place I wouldn't have addressed it. I'd have quietly told him I was really tired, needed to go home and then told him things weren't going to work out between us the next day. If he'd pushed it, I probably would have told him why. 

You have to decide if you can accept him as he is and live with it. Apologies for this type of behavior are warranted but they won't solve the problem.

Also, in your posts you've been alluding to the fact that all accomplished men who have done well in their careers are like this. That's really not the case. I've known many accomplished, wealthy, classy men who are incredibly refined gentlemen.

[Ruby Slippers]

Great post, thank you. I feel bad because he showed me just how unrefined he is from the start, and I overlooked it because at the time I didn't realize what a problem it would become. Until I did, a lot of good stuff happened, too, and we expressed real love, which in my book is a promise. He has some uniquely wonderful and truly exceptional qualities that I just adore. 

I know you have to accept the whole package or not. I guess I just have to figure out if I can do that or if I even want to. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Ruby Slippers

[The Outlaw]

Ruby, I honest to god hope it works out for you, but even if it doesn't, you have a whole hell of a lot going for you. Loving him despite his flaws seems is a must for any relationship, whether it be man or woman whether they want to admit it or not, and I'd give if I could find that in a woman. But no matter what happens, you sound like quite the keeper and the right guy will come your way one day. 

[NomiMalone]

Wow, so many great posts and excellent perspectives in this thread. 

I too once found myself at a crossroads in a relationship years ago over a similar incident. It also involved boorish behaviour by my boyfriend towards an attractive female stranger at a restaurant, which made me feel put down and embarrassed in public. (I’d also earlier ignored a giant red flag on our first date, when he said of the day he first met me that he “would’ve paid to sleep with me”. I excused it as a moment of stupidity on his part because we had great chemistry and I was hellbent on giving him a chance.)

Well the stupid one turned out to be me - when I made it clear to him that I was upset about the restaurant incident, his response was to gaslight me (“you’re being insecure, and I’m just an extrovert!”) I’m ashamed to admit that not only did I take him back, but I stayed in the relationship for another year, throughout which his tendency towards boorish, objectifying behaviour continued to rear it’s ugly head from time to time (with or without alcohol). 

It wasn’t until one poster here on LS described this guy as an “insecure extrovert” that I finally began to understand that at the core of his behaviour was a need for validation from females that he was attractive. 

It’s been more than 2 years since I dumped him, and he is about to marry a lady 20 years + older than I am. He’s clearly way more comfortable and secure in his relationship with her (secure enough to ask her to marry him.) He’s now the “hotter” one in the couple, the one who gets the most attention when they go out, the one people refer to when they say, “how did she score a young guy like you!?” Maybe he now feels secure enough to not “act out” in public. Or maybe he still does, but she’s ok with it? Who knows. Bottom line is I’ll always regret staying with him for a year after the restaurant incident - a year of my precious youth wasted that I’ll never get back. 

The difference between your ex and mine seems to be that yours is at least willing to put his ego and pride aside to acknowledge that he’s in the wrong and to apologise, so it looks like there may be some hope. Mine refused to accept any responsibility, and even blamed me for being upset, which looking back now, made the situation completely untenable.

I do tend to agree with the others who’ve said that he’s not likely to change (IMO, probably due to him not genuinely understanding what the underlying cause of your concern was). Yes, he can see that he’s upset you, but he may never be able to truly see and understand things from your point of view. Sometimes the hardest thing to accept is that a person is who they are and isn’t capable of (or willing to) change, regardless of how glaringly unacceptable their behaviour is. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by NomiMalone

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, NomiMalone said:

The difference between your ex and mine seems to be that yours is at least willing to put his ego and pride aside to acknowledge that he’s in the wrong and to apologise, so it looks like there may be some hope. Mine refused to accept any responsibility, and even blamed me for being upset, which looking back now, made the situation completely untenable.

This relationship is new, RS has played the "perfect woman" very well.
She is feminine, nice, accommodating, traditional, accepts his position as the man in charge, and the sex is to die for.
But familiarity bred contempt and he got cocky and arrogant.
He tried to show dominance that night by ordering her to run an errand to the car, when that didn't work he tried to treat her like an escort by demanding a blow job... He was a boor in speech and actions...
Like a lot of men bolstered up by sexy women, he started to think he was God's gift to women, and that he probably didn't need her.
In reality, the fact he probably does need her on some level at least, was a source of annoyance, so he acted out.
He was superman, he could have any woman... Ruby needed to be put back into her place.
He messed up, pushed it too far, now he desperately needs it back, but i guess not so much  for "love", but for ego and for saving face and for... the great sex... 
I don't know the ins and outs of Iranian culture but if you are to continue I think you better do some reading up on it.
Be careful.
 

[NomiMalone]

@elaine567 Yes the cultural factor definitely adds a layer of complexity to the situation. I hadn’t considered that!

[Ruby Slippers]

He's half Persian, half German, for the record. His dad was Iranian, mom was German. So he's Middle Eastern but also European/Western.

He was raised in Iran, did all his college education in Germany. 

An interesting similarity is that we both had a somewhat troubled childhood relationship with our opposite sex parent. My dad was critical and verbally abusive, but I've invested a lot into overcoming that and our relationship is now pretty good. I didn't want him to leave this world with lingering resentments between us. 

He told me that his mom was always trying to control and suppress anything exceptional he did. It seemed to me that due to her own limitations, she was threatened by his overachieving and afraid of losing him. He didn't let her hold him back, but he said that resulted in many fights, her trying to suppress and restrain him, telling he was "the bad son" because he was so independent. 

He said he still argues with her in his dreams now and then. My armchair counselor suggestion was to approach her in his dreams with love, instead of fighting back, hug her and tell her he loves her. 

He probably needs counseling - I got some to figure out how to deal with my dad - but he's unlikely ever to do that.

[Ruby Slippers]

@LivingWaterPlease, you make an interesting point about his work environment. He works on the trading floor and says most of those men are unsavory.

At his work Christmas party shortly after we got together, the guys were asking and he told them he had a girlfriend. He said this one guy kept saying, "Naw, man, you're a pimp." Like because they can't get one woman to stick around and hop from fling to fling, he should do the same. His attitude was that he's happy to come home to one good woman, but it's a stupid ego thing with these traders, with them egging the other guys on to be "a pimp".

Edited January 20, 2020 by Ruby Slippers

[NuevoYorko]

I think any reconciliation  (not just this one) is doomed if it hinges on a core change of character and behavior for one of the partners.   A simple deal breaker like  drinking, drugs,  porn, infidelity, gambling makes sense to me.  RS you seem to be requiring everything about him to be different in order for him to meet your "high bar" and even then I'm not sure if you will start to like and trust him again, or if he will be able to have any sense of security.  

For reconciliation there needs to be a big piece of forgiveness and acceptance in play.  There is not.

Add to this your general sense that he is below your "league" and I'm just not seeing any possibility.  

It's a bit extra complicated because you've known him for a few weeks, yet your relationship seemed to be at a place that usually takes at least a year to achieve.  Generally  a month or two is "dating" and learning about each other.  It's normal to decide within those few weeks that someone is just not for you.  Your situation is almost like a divorce.  Reconciling a broken marriage or LTR is a different thing than deciding to try dating a person you've previously rejected again.  It requires work and accountability from both people, even if one of them did an egregious thing.  Dating doesn't carry that weight.  

No way am I defending the man, but questioning the idea of getting back together when the only positive aspect of his entire being seems to be his sexual performance.