My guy and I had a few drinks before dinner last night and he had too much and was being a jerk

[major_merrick]

2 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Reviewing the thread, I just wanted to say this. I wasn't playing a role. I AM feminine, nice, accommodating, traditional, and I want a man who's in charge, with sex to die for. All this is ME, natural me.

If you take away the demeaning behavior, he was a great counterpart - masculine, assertive, traditional, and wants a woman who's competent on her own but willing to trust and follow his lead.

In one of his messages the past few days, he said I'm not as "submissive" as I made myself out to be, that I'm really a "strong woman". He went on to say that's fine and he'd never want to hold me back from developing any parts of my personality I want to develop. I mentioned before that I think we're both really "switches," enjoy taking turns with the reins.

I didn't even respond to that. But the truth is I'm a strong woman who, like many women, longs for a strong men worthy of submitting to in a natural, biological way. On that night, he's the one who failed to lead properly. I was following beautifully, till he tried to lead me astray.

Just wanted to clarify that. 

I think that perhaps you ended up being a bit too feminine and nice....and that gave him just enough rope to hang himself with.  I've seen women who have a tendency to do it.  They put up with stuff, and then suddenly its like a switch turns off in their brain and it leaves the guy surprised.  I've never had that issue, because I'm very blunt.  My husband has always known the kind of girl he was getting 😆

I kind of doubt your renewed contact with this fellow will be successful.  Consider it a sociology experiment.

[Woggle]

To me a good relationship should never be a power struggle or be about who is submissive and who is dominant or who does and doesn't wear the pants. Yes men and women are different but in a relationship there should be a team with equal power and equal standing. The best relationships I have seen take that approach.

[Ruby Slippers]

I agree, but I definitely grew up in a dom/sub kinda household, and it sounds like maybe he did, too, so that's gonna skew our thinking on the matter. He said that though he lived in patriarchal Iran, his mom "wore the pants" and dad was kinda lazy and went along with what she wanted for the most part. Sounds like his dad was kinda mellow, happy-go-lucky and mom was uptight. I'm definitely the more happy-go-lucky one, but it seems like he acts out to try to evoke "mean mom" energy from me so he can work his s*** out. That's what he needs counseling about. 

[Ruby Slippers]

@Morello, I hear you. The reason I'm inclined to give him a second chance is that I genuinely felt and told him I loved him, and I consider that a promise. If you really love someone, you don't just give up on them for messing up. I'm sure there are some serious mistakes like cheating I wouldn't be able to get past, but this doesn't seem that severe. 

But I haven't made my mind up. Ultimately it will depend on his approach after his trip, if he makes one. His approaches since the blowup have been insufficient, and I've honestly responded to that. If he had his way, we'd be back together now, but we're not.

[Woggle]

In my opinion if somebody has to earn their way back after two months it already seems doomed. A good relationship just shouldn't be that hard. I have been married 14 years and while we have disagreements like anybody else it never gets to the point that one of us has to earn the other's trust. Trustworthiness and respect is a given between the both of us.

 

If I based my dating life on my upbringing it would be a horror show and my wife's parents have one of the best long term marriages I have ever seen so I guess it balances out but at the end of the day people have to look at life through their own filter.

[Cookiesandough]

I agree with @Woggle. This is only two months in. You guys should be having the time of your lives. This is the honeymoon period and the where people are still on their best behavior and it seems you have had problems with his behavior from the get-go. 

I really think you should have blocked and kept him blocked and not communicated with him except 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:27 PM, Ruby Slippers said:

... if he does eventually come back around looking for a better sense of closure, from a distant, friendly position I will communicate to him the issues that I spotted.

I think you did not block him or at least not completely on email too with the notion he could come back and try to win you over.  Not a good idea imo. Not only is it tempting to take back someone you love that is not good for you,   I think to the other person it seems wishy  washy. It sets a precedent that they can disrespect and then come back with some sweet talk and get another chance. 

[Ruby Slippers]

You may be right. Though I do think it's worth pointing out that we spent almost all our free time together for 2 months straight, by mutual choice, which is very unusual, and certainly got us closer to each other than most people become in 2 months. I think it's quite possible we expressed and revealed more about ourselves in those 2 months than a lot of couples do in years - that's because we wanted to bond and evolve together. It's kinda remarkable that we only had one real fight, given how much time we spent together and how strong a bond we formed. 

[Ruby Slippers]

@Cookiesandough, if the time comes when I want to truly end all communication, I will do it. 

I don't want that yet. I've learned it's very important to finish all your business in a relationship and tie up loose ends before closing the door. When I didn't do that in the past, I struggled with unresolved emotions for years after the fact. Once I learned to do that, now if I move on from something, I close the door and it doesn't haunt me in any way. 

I chose to give him the opportunity to apologize, and thus far I've left the door open to more communication and possibly reconciliation. At some point I will need to forgive him. That doesn't mean I automatically take him back. It means I forgive a big mistake and release us both from any associated guilt or resentment, a very healthy thing to do.

Whether we continue or not, I'll do what I can to handle the transition in an emotionally healthy, loving way. 

Thankfully, I've matured past the point where a sweet message could influence me against my better judgment. If I were that weak, he would have reeled me back in already.

[Happy Lemming]

On 1/20/2020 at 6:16 PM, Ruby Slippers said:

He told me that with girlfriends in the past, he hardly changed anything about his lifestyle, but with me was willing to adapt in many ways. Oral sex for women is not common in the Middle East, almost taboo, considered "unmanly" or something.

Can you educate me regarding the cultural differences between the two of you??

Many years ago, a close friend of mine married a woman from a different culture.  I warned him that cross cultural relationships/marriages have additional challenges.  What my friend didn't realize was her brother (who was the family patriarch) was always sticking his nose into their marriage and making demands, etc. upon my friend on behalf of his sister.  There were other problems, but the HUGE cultural differences eventually split them up and they divorced.

[Ruby Slippers]

He was raised in Iran but has been in the West since his 20s, half Iranian and half German, isn't religious, is a well-educated scientist/mathematician, so pretty open-minded for a man from the Middle East.

Compared to your typical Western man, he's more traditional about masculine/feminine, in general views his role as provider, protector, leader of the family/household. Feels inadequate/"gay" if he doesn't do the man stuff like carry the heavy things and so on. Generally much more serious about relationships, not into casual dating, marriage minded, way more open to having kids than your average 40+ Western guy, says he always wanted more but thought he couldn't find a woman who'd want kids with a man his age - I had the same worry for quite a while. As the eldest son, sees it as his duty to take care of his younger brother, parents when they were still alive. Way higher sex drive than your average American, who he suggested are a bit numb to sex because they start so young here - and I agree. His desire for me was like a 10-alarm fire, just unrelenting, so freaking hot! He said men who'd rather watch porn or masturbate than have sex with a woman are gay. Way more into close bonding than modern Western men, all about being close and connected. 

[greymatter]

The gay comments are very unenlightened and would be a big turn off for me. I couldn't be around someone who thinks that way and would find it very offensive.

I have no wish to be dominated so that would also be a dealbreaker, but I know that is part of what attracted you and what you want in a partner, from what you've written.

I don't think the two of you are extraordinarily unique or special in the closeness you felt in the 8 weeks of being together. The close feelings weren't necessary a sign of true love, good judgement, or having heads on straight, rushing into it so quickly and talking about everything from marriage to a business partnership. What happened isn't  at all a result of that, but you both jumped all in to keep feeling that closeness without building a foundation first, but hoping that's what you had anyway, so when things got difficult, there was little to work from. Although as I said above, if the things you've described in numerous posts happened a year or two in for me, they would be dealbreakers.

I don't know of any woman in my circles who would put up with demeaning behavior and ignore it or stay with someone like that. It concerns me to see how many of your thoughts center around what other women are likely to put up with. That isn't very relevant to your situation. What are the true dealbreakers for you?

Reading your posts, my feeling is you don't believe it's right to take him back, but I can feel how much you want to go back to the fantasy/perfect part when all was good for those 8 weeks (even though it wasn't perfect). Of course you want those feelings back. It's painful to be apart and not have what you thought you had. I know and feel for you.

[major_merrick]

Well, the cultural differences are enlightening.  Explains basically everything about what you've experienced so far.  You aren't going to change his behavior, so you either learn to live with it or you walk.  Guys from a Middle Eastern background are used to being able to treat women pretty much any way they want, and they have little respect for Western women.  But the experience seems to be different enough that they are able to reel in Western women. 

The real balance is for a guy to be dominant enough to drive you crazy, but tactful enough to be able to handle your independence.  I guess my husband turned out OK because he got used to handling me pretty early in life...

[Happy Lemming]

1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said:

 As the eldest son, sees it as his duty to take care of his younger brother, parents when they were still alive.

Yes... this is what I was afraid of. This is the exact behavior I saw from my friend's brother in law.  The brother-in-law saw it as his duty to intervene into his sister's marriage and tell my friend what to do, how to do it and criticize my friend's shortcomings (especially when it came to their finances). It was a huge cultural hurdle that my friend couldn't clear and it was a factor in the collapse of the marriage.

From what I was told (and my brief interaction with the brother-in-law), he ruled his household with a "iron fist".  His wife was treated like a second class citizen and almost like chattel.

[Happy Lemming]

16 minutes ago, major_merrick said:

Well, the cultural differences are enlightening.  Explains basically everything about what you've experienced so far.  You aren't going to change his behavior, so you either learn to live with it or you walk. 

I think "major" has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I'm not going to say you "can't" change his behavior.  I'm going to say it's very doubtful that he will change, (permanently); any change (you experience) will more than likely be temporary.

[greymatter]

When I was 28 and in grad school, I had a relationship with a man who was Iranian. He was a bit older, smart, highly educated, successful, etc. etc. He was very masculine but not the dominating type. We only dated for 6 months. The reason we broke up was that his family decided to come to the U.S. for a couple of months to stay with him and he said he couldn’t see me during that time. I have a cultural background that would have been seen as unacceptable in their eyes, and I believe that’s why there is no way  he would have admitted to dating me let alone introduce me. Plus we weren’t married. He didn’t say any that though, but wanted to put me on hold until they left. There was no way I was going to be put on hold like he wanted me to be. He contacted me after they were gone, but it was over for me and I didn’t agree to see him. All to say that cultural factors may be a big issue, although it’s unwise to generalize as every person is different, and each person’s character may be independent of all of the external forces.

[Ruby Slippers]

Thank you very much to everyone for taking the time to consider the situation and share your insights and comments. I have friends who have been supportive, but there's something very special about having dozens of anonymous friends out there somewhere to give so many different perspectives. THANK YOU! 🥰

I don't think it's beneficial for me to continue analyzing the situation further, so I'll move on from this thread. It's all been considered and said. Now is the time for me to accept what has happened and decide what's right from here.

Though I love him and was very hopeful about a bright future for us, the fact is that he showed me he has the capacity and the tendency to demean someone he claims to love. That's a big problem, one that's not likely to be solved by anything other than good counseling and self-work, which I'm almost certain he'll never do. 

I've learned a whole lot from this experience. We had some absolutely amazing times together, and I can always look back fondly on those. It's likely that if he gets back in touch, I'll say anything I have left to say, express forgiveness for my own healing, and let it all go.

[NuevoYorko]

14 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

You may be right. Though I do think it's worth pointing out that we spent almost all our free time together for 2 months straight, by mutual choice, which is very unusual, and certainly got us closer to each other than most people become in 2 months. 

Maybe.  As a person a few years older than you,  I can say from experience that many people spend all their time together when they first connect and it rarely turns out to be for the good.  It's common and not "special;" pages and pages of this site are dedicated to it.   It tends to create a false intimacy, since there was no opportunity to learn how the other person is in daily life, how they treat food servers,  how they behave drunk, when they get angry, etc.  No foundation for anything is in place.

I would look at this if I were in your position (which I was once).  Maybe your defensive attachment (which I've inferred from some of your comments on this thread and  an earlier one) to this concept is a bigger issue for you in your life today than what to do about this man and all of his issues.

 

[elaine567]

I heard this today and I paraphrase.
"The idea that you can love somebody into healthiness is a flawed concept. 
The notion that if you just keep going it will all become healthy...
It doesn't work like that..."

[thefooloftheyear]

 

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

 

I would look at this if I were in your position (which I was once).  Maybe your defensive attachment (which I've inferred from some of your comments on this thread and  an earlier one) to this concept is a bigger issue for you in your life today than what to do about this man and all of his issues.

 

Well said...

I'll just leave this here....I really have to be careful with this, as I am not a professional, nor do I want to make any assumptions...but its noteworthy,,

 

"A pattern of unstable intense relationships, such as idealizing someone one moment and then suddenly believing the person doesn't care enough or is cruel"

 

TFY

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I don't think it's beneficial for me to continue analyzing the situation further, so I'll move on from this thread.

If in the future you would like it re-opened then hit report and we will do so, thanks

 

[Ruby Slippers]

At first he accepted my suggestion that we think it over while he’s out of town for 2 weeks. Then he appealed to please just talk to him before he goes. 

For a while I was sure it would have to be over. But since I told him I love him and meant it, I suggested to him the only solution I can think of: counseling, either for him or for us together. A few sessions should be enough for us to figure out if there’s anything to salvage here. I agree it’s not ideal so early in the game. But I’m OK with it. Counseling can only help, whatever happens from here.

Just hours before this exchange, I got in touch with my old counselor from years ago, the one who helped me worked through the stuff with my dad, and asked to talk with her. I want to untangle how I managed to get myself involved with a guy with these tendencies again, how I can break this pattern.

In reply to my suggestion of counseling, he said he’ll try anything to repair the damage and restore what we had before. I was shocked by this. Now I’ve set up an appointment for myself with my counselor next week, and we’ll continue the discussion about counseling for him or us.

We got on the phone and had a very open, honest talk. I tried to coax an educated guess out of him about why he behaved that way. The closest he could figure is that it was a misguided dominance play, from the humiliation angle, just as @mark clemson suggested. Smart! I explained that while I find certain expressions of masculine dominance arousing, such as the use of controlled “force,” I’ve never found that particular expression arousing and never will.

I emphasized that what really matters is that we both feel good about whatever’s happening, regardless of dom/sub/switch categorization. We had an in-depth discussion of our sexual routines and rituals and how we could adjust them for better balance. He said he felt pressure to prove what a “big man” he is, and I admitted I felt pressure to evoke the “big man” in him – but now we agree it’s time to get over that and just enjoy without the role playing.

He said he had no idea I was unhappy about certain things in the relationship until this all blew up and I told him in the aftermath. I admitted that I was gradually surrendering more and more, in the interest of keeping the peace / going with the flow. The metaphysical interpretation here is that I was wowed by his power, so I was giving up more and more of mine, inserting myself under his wing. But now my power’s back in full force, and all this has absolutely activated a sense of strength I never had before.

I asserted myself and said he’s lucky to have a woman who’s SOFT, SWEET, and WANTS TO PLEASE HIM, I did try in many ways to communicate that certain things were not ideal for me and could have been better, and said he could be more sensitive to my softer approach. I feel that he has a way of steamrolling over me, oblivious to the many hints and signals I’m giving. It’s nothing “personal,” just the way he is. So I’m definitely going to be 100% open and clear moment to moment from now on – and I also asked him to be more sensitive in his approach, to adjust to my style as well, and he agreed.

He pushed his flight to one day later and we’re having dinner tonight. Of course he’ll want to come over, but I’m not doing that since he’s about to leave town for 2 weeks. I’m going to ask how he feels about going Dutch. 

[Mrin]

So what happened?

[Ruby Slippers]

We met at a lovely Italian place on Friday. He was supposed to fly Friday evening, but rescheduled to Saturday. He requested that I choose the place, as up till now, he tends to pick the same places over and over and I tend to go along with it because he's a health nut and I'm pretty go with the flow about that kind of thing - but this was one aspect over which I kind of gradually built up resentment over time. Why do we always go where he wants to go? Well, he always has a strong preference and I softly and sweetly tend to agree. That's why he suggested I pick this time. The place was awesome and we both loved it.

We had a lovely dinner, and at the end I asked him how he feels about going Dutch, explained my rationale - to neutralize that aspect of the power balance. He said he appreciates the offer, but he makes more than I do, so he feels he should pay more for now. He said if I one day make as much as he does, then we can go Dutch or take turns. He also said I've been more fair and generous with dating expenses than any woman he's dated before. He paid the bill and I paid the tip.

In spite of my prior conviction, I wanted him to come over, and he did. He made every possible effort to put my pleasure first, stepped it up even more than before, and it was otherworldly. You were right, @K.K.  His general vibe throughout the weekend was: I'm not going to lose you again, and I'm going to make sure you're so wowed that you don't even think about running away. At the same time, I told him I never want him to feel he has to walk on eggshells, want him to be free to relax and be himself without worrying about how I'm going to take everything.

Then his Saturday flight got cancelled and he rescheduled to Monday, as he has some wiggle room with his departure date, so we got the whole weekend together.

It was all lovely. We talked everything through. He said he was a total a**h*** and apologized again. Once we were back together, I said the whole thing seemed so silly. Though what happened wasn't OK with me, I overreacted. I have a tendency to want to throw out the baby with the bath water, faulty thinking I'll try to correct.

We typed up an agreement about how we'll handle a big disagreement next time and it's really good, with sensible conflict resolution guidelines. We printed out two copies, both signed it, and put one copy at my place and one at his. With that, he visibly relaxed.

I'm talking to my counselor tomorrow, and while he agreed we can do the same, I'm thinking a better and more affordable place to start will be reading/listening to a good psychology book together. My counselor will have great suggestions, I'm sure. I've already found a couple by a leading psychology/psychoanalysis scholar that look really good.

He got me pretty flowers while we were out, already asked what I want to do for Valentine's Day (right after he gets back). I've been paying a guy to mow my yard, but he said he'll be my new guy for free, so I bought my first-ever lawnmower and he happily put it together and mowed my yard. Now, when a man is taking care of your yard, it's serious 😅

After he worked hard in the yard, I gave him an awesome extended massage that totally melted him, then loved him up in other ways, all about him. He offered to massage me as well, but I said that while I'm always happy for him to massage me, too, I didn't give to get and meant it.

This morning I tempted him to stay in bed a little longer for some hmmhmm, but he's very responsible and doesn't like to be late for work. We already had plans to have lunch, my treat, and he suggested he pick up the food and meet me at home for a little afternoon delight. So here shortly, I'll be taking a very nice break from Monday at the office, giving my man a proper sendoff. I'm very happy 

[NuevoYorko]

11 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Once we were back together, I said the whole thing seemed so silly. Though what happened wasn't OK with me, I overreacted. I have a tendency to want to throw out the baby with the bath water, faulty thinking I'll try to correct.

Huh?   I am confused.  Forgive me, but this entire thread has been devoted to you communicating, strongly, just how egregious was his behavior.  Including pretty much depicting him as a person of  poor character.  Now it seems silly?

Look, I have no idea what's really going on between the two of you and whatever you want to happen is what I hope for you.  I think there's a good chance that this guy is really OK.  That said, I'm getting a picture of you spending a whole lot of time and energy on justifying, rationalizing, and skewed analyzation of things in order to turn them around to fit what you want to believe.  Last week it was that he's a pretty bad guy.  Now he's amazing.  Why?  Because he has performed a lot of behaviors over a weekend that  are very flattering and feed your emotions, including agreeing to sign a pledge and read a psychology book.  I'm not disparaging those, that's very lovely indeed, but a man jumping though your hoops to win (or "earn," as you tend to term it) favor is not equivalent to a man who has gained self awareness and is making changes in HIMSELF.   That part comes from within a person, independent of wishing to get a specific reaction from another / others.

I also have a comment about your "d/s" experiences.  Having a dominating partner is not akin to having a d/s relationship in the bedroom.  Women who are submitting to a dominant male  in daily life are not equal partners with the man.   They are usually controlled.  Some people are into this but you certainly don't seem like one of them.   You appear to be in the driver's seat on this one.

 

[Allupinnit]

I don't like how this guy tries to make it sound like he's never done XYZ for other girlfriends before, and that you're so much better than other women because of XYZ. Were they not also special?  I hope you don't fall for that line anymore.  I'm sure you're all THAT, but come on - it's such a disingenuous thing to say designed to butter you up.  And it works - you LOVE hearing that you're better!

You got the dinner and the make-up sex and because you were apart for a while I'm sure it all feels like it did in those first 8 weeks.  But his mask has slipped, boo.  You're not special enough to rewire a grown man's character.  Enjoy the limerence while you can!