Not Sure What to Make of xMM

[Bittersweetie]

16 hours ago, LilKatKat said:

In the end, not gonna lie, I feel like I have more power than I've ever had. It isn't his terms like before. We interact on my terms and that's exactly how it will stay. I won't dance the pick me dance. I'm not even asking to be picked. I don't need to be picked and he knows it. 

After xAP and I got back in contact the second time, I had a "new" mindset: I was going to be the one in control this time. And there was a part of me that thought: I'll end it on my terms, and treat him the same way he treated me, and then he'll know how it feels. I felt I had the power at this point in the relationship, the power to end it at any time my way.

But here's what happened: I got sucked in and we fell into the same pattern as the first time, him doing his thing and me always wondering why. And then he pretty much ghosted me again, and I found myself exactly where I'd been before.

I offer this example for two reasons: Is there a part of you, deep down, who is re-engaging because you feel you have the power and can get back at him? I don't think that's necessarily a "bad" thing, but something to recognize.

And secondly, patterns in a relationship are really, really hard to break. I've done a lot of work on myself in the ten years since my d-day, but even still I sometimes find myself saying/doing something with my husband that's part of an old (pre-A) pattern. When one is upset/angry/sad/tired it's easy to fall into old patterns and coping skills. Just something to think about.

[S2B]

He will still have OOW...

he’s proven one will never be enough.

why do you want to be one of many?

[Aloha123]

Hi LKK -- I am coming out of a long hibernation from commenting, but I'm not gonna lie I was so disappointed to read your update that I felt compelled to come on here and post just to say that  . . . .

You are better than this!!!!!!!!

Look, I know it's flattering during the groveling stage, but please see this as the "up part" of the up and down roller coaster that this will continue to be.  Just remember that the down part of the cycle is BAD.  Quit while you are ahead, with your dignity in tact. 

I realize this is easier said than done.  A few resources that have helped me move on are a website called post male syndrome and a book called the No Contact Rule by Natalie Lue.  Once you fully see these destructive relationships for what they are, it's hard to continue on in them with a blind eye to the truth.  

Edited January 28, 2020 by Aloha123

[Abetterme]

Hi Aloha! Good to see you back, and not to TJ, but hope you are well!

In seeing Aloha perk up on the boards, I revisited a thread where you really broke down a lot about your xMM, Kat. It was interesting reading given your recent updates Kat and maybe worth your while to re-read as you jump headfirst back into this thing. 
 

Recently I was chatting with some colleagues at an outing. One of them is a dating a younger gal and was discussing how they use “tracking” as apparently that’s the thing now. He brought up how she would disable this functionality “when she wanted to hide” and always had a bunch of excuses as to why. Luckily he is a very detached guy who sees her for exactly what she is and is fine with the game. What it left me was with a very sad feeling that people have to live that way. Is that really the kind of relationship you want? Somebody you have to track and follow every minute of the day? In with Stars....that’s crazy making. 
 

If this is truly what you want, I wish you the very best. For what it’s worth, I think you are worthy of far more. You say often you couldn’t ever go back because to much had happened. A baggage free start at a life is what I wish for you. 

[PhoenixRising8]

On 1/27/2020 at 9:36 AM, spiritedaway2003 said:

Because whether it’s naive or not, some people actually believe that others are capable of change. 

That a person isn’t defined by one mistake they make in their lives?

That, if they themselves, are capable of change, others can too?

That they knew the person before things went to hell?  

And that they understand they screwed up, they are going through hard times too and need some support, even just as a friend? 

That there is still goodness there, for the same reasons some BS take back their cheating (but remorseful) spouse? 

Do I think the OP’s MM is a selfish opportunistic jerk based on the way he treated her?  Totally.  He sounds like the biggest prick there is.

Do I think the above doesn’t apply to him?  No.  

I would just advise the OP to proceed with caution, that’s all. 

Thank you spirited away.  I believe people have the capacity to change if they really want to. He has come clean to BS and to me. He didn't have to. Isn't that the common consensus?  Own your mistakes as that's the only way you can start to heal. He's done that but is still being vilified. Maybe I'm just not jaded enough ... maybe I've seen the impact this has had on him physically.  That's not something you can fake  

He has been at an airbnb for the last 2 weeks and has signed a lease starting Feb 1. I have seen both the reservation for the airbnb as well as the signed lease. I also was present last night when he spoke to his BFFs (married couple), who are also close friends with BS.  I heard both sides of the conversation and what I heard was them supporting him saying they know he was miserable for years and that his recent behaviour has been unexpected as he has always been a kind, honest person. That there are 2 sides to every story and although his way of getting out of the marriage was not the right way, they understood how it got to that point as she hasn't been a loving wife either. They've been BFFs with him since high school.

I have also seen a different side to him. Based on everything I know (not based on his telling me either, but real evidence) I don't think that's who he really is. I think the internal struggle and misery broke him. Maybe I am projecting my own struggles with my leaving my marriage onto him but my intuition tells me it isn't just projecting. After 5 months apart and how we ended he didn't think I would give him another chance and he grasped at someone else. He finally got the nerve to call me but when  I told him what I'd done he continued with the OOW (he'd only just started seeing her) as he was angry with me. He broke up with her a few days after confessing all to BS because he admitted to himself she wasn't what he wanted wanted without any indication I would give him a chance and spent 2 weeks waiting for me to return from my trips so we could talk.  Before I even thought to ask, he unlocked his phone and handed it over. There were all the text messages confirming he had in fact broken up with OOW and left BS.

Everyone is assuming I'm just going to jump back in. I'm not. I've learned a lot in the last year. The most important thing I have learned is that I am enough full stop. And he has no expectations other than reconnecting as friends because we were always very close. It soured because it all got to me the last few months of the affair and he didn't have the wherewithal to do what he should have. The lies and deception and the guilt it caused me to feel. It seems it finally caught up to him to. He had to get there on his own. Seems he finally did. I contributed in where we got to ultimately by sending the letter. Common wisdom here has been if you want to see how much you matter, tell the BS and see how quickly you are thrown under the bus. He was angry yes, but he didn't ghost me, he didn't go on a rampage. He didn't seek revenge. He acknowledged it was what he deserved for giving me hope and snatching it away, time and time again. 

BS is willing to reconcile. He it seems is resolved at this point not to, with or without me. He is prepared to live on his own. Good on him. He is finally being honest with those he has hurt. I give him credit for that and hope that his road to redemption has started. 

[S2B]

Are you still seeing the new guy?

do you feel it’s giving the new relationship your all while knowing your MM is waiting in the wings?

[Allupinnit]

I'm sorry but yes people make mistakes but what this guy has is a character problem.  He is not a victim of his circumstances - he created his own personal hell and keeps making poor choice on top of poor choice in order to try and preserve himself.  It all came tumbling down like a house of cards, predictably.  He doesn't get credit for "coming clean" to everyone (laughable that you include yourself in this audience) of the three women who inevitably found out about each other LOL. He didn't care that you sent that crap to his wife because perhaps he intercepted it or she already knew everything.  

I wish you the best, and honestly - I think you're probably right for each other.  Good luck.

[BTDT2012]

Has he sought professional help? 

[Allupinnit]

Also I'll bet dollars to donuts his wife is the one who finally kicked him out and made him get the apartment and he's begging to reconcile.

It's amazing that you're willing to pay heed to what this man is straight up lying to your face about.  It's apparent to all of us, but you just excuse it away because poor thing was in such a miserable marriage. It takes two to make a thing go right, as the song goes and given how he's acted since you've known him I'm sure you can cut his wife some slack  

Edited January 29, 2020 by Allupinnit

[S2B]

22 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

Also I'll bet dollars to donuts his wife is the one who finally kicked him out and made him get the apartment and he's begging to reconcile.

It's amazing that you're willing to pay heed to what this man is straight up lying to your face about.  It's apparent to all of us, but you just excuse it away because poor thing was in such a miserable marriage. It takes two to make a thing go right, as the song goes and given how he's acted since you've known him I'm sure you can cut his wife some slack  

this^^^
You seriously need to ask his wife what has happened. You can’t believe a word he has said! have you asked HER?

[BaileyB]

11 hours ago, LilKatKat said:

Everyone is assuming I'm just going to jump back in. I'm not. 

Kat, you must realize that you can support him and wish him well in creating for himself a life of honesty, authenticity, and respectability without actually holding his hand along the way. Being present for a conversation with his BFFs to discuss his various affairs and the breakdown of his marriage is NOT you staying out of things while he deals with his problems. I think if you are truly honest with yourself, you would acknowledge that you did not listen/participate in this conversation as his “friend” (that would not have been appropriate). Nor did you attend the dinner as his “former” affair partner - that would also have been very inappropriate. I would respectfully suggest, and I know you will completely disagree, that you are most definitely jumping back in - you may not be having sex with the man but he has drawn you back into his personal drama and you have most definitely volunteered to participate in the process...

Edited January 29, 2020 by BaileyB

[spiritedaway2003]

19 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Kat, you must realize that you can support him and wish him well in creating for himself a life of honesty, authenticity, and respectability without actually holding his hand along the way. Being present for a conversation with his BFFs to discuss his various affairs and the breakdown of his marriage is NOT you staying out of things while he deals with his problems. I think if you are truly honest with yourself, you would acknowledge that you did not listen/participate in this conversation as his “friend” (that would not have been appropriate). Nor did you attend the dinner as his “former” affair partner - that would also have been very inappropriate. I would respectfully suggest, and I know you will completely disagree, that you are most definitely jumping back in - you may not be having sex with the man but he has drawn you back into his personal drama and you have most definitely volunteered to participate in the process...

Hmm, let me reframe the choices for Kat.  At least based of the views here, she could either:

• Choose to never speak to him again.  Because she could never be a friend to him, nor he is worthy of being a friend to her ever again. 
• Keep in touch,  continue to be drawn to the drama, and risk losing her BF.

Kat, I guess the ball is in your court.

Edited January 29, 2020 by spiritedaway2003

[S2B]

And until he seeks long term professional help - he’s still the same man. The same man who will avoid to keep the peace and cheat to meet his needs.

you really want that kind of man? 
 

don’t even consider it until he’s a changed man long term who knows how to address issues and is happy being on his own.

therapy should be weekly for at least a year!

[S2B]

The man you think you know and the man he is - it’s not the same as you think.

you only know what he wants you to know... be careful LKK

[mark clemson]

FWIW, LKK, I think that he finally recognized he was going to stay unhappy in his marriage if he stayed in it. You showed him a happier situation and he couldn't go back "to that". He tried with the OOW and realized she wasn't doing it for him and also that he was just perpetuating unhappiness for himself with an OW band aid on it. He couldn't fix the marriage.

That said, IF you actually take him back, where will he be in three years? Once the initial fun has faded. Will he start up again with OWs? I think it's really hard to say. As you've pointed out he's very good looking for his age and so forth and is the kind of guy who enjoys "sweet talking" a woman. Will you be wondering every time a cashier starts a spontaneous conversation with him if "this is it"?

I think it might be wise to talk to the XW - but, as the OW I doubt she'd have much to say to you, right? You're "the enemy" to some extent. Is there someone you could ask somehow to talk to her to get her take "for real". Maybe you could ask these best friend people questions about the wife (if they'll play along).

Dunno, it seems like you're taking a real gamble here, given the history. Not that that's so totally wrong or anything, but...

Anyhow, GL!

[S2B]

 

this is a man who really needs to figure out how to be happy all on his own! Otherwise he will always need to have multiple women to fill his void.

Edited January 29, 2020 by S2B

[anika99]

On 1/28/2020 at 10:19 PM, LilKatKat said:

Everyone is assuming I'm just going to jump back in. I'm not. I've learned a lot in the last year. The most important thing I have learned is that I am enough full stop. And he has no expectations other than reconnecting as friends because we were always very close. 

Sorry but this is similar to what you have said since the start. The whole "oh I know better this time, I'm not going to get taken in again. This time I'm not going to get suckered" only to get suckered over and over again. I don't know why he you are even entertaining him to the point that he is sending you all of that stuff. You have clearly given him reason to believe he can win you over again (kind of sounds like he already has) and of course he has expectations that he will reconnect with you as more than a friend. He has made that clear. We are not dumb on this board. We can see what is really happening in spite of the spin you attempt to put on it. 

[S2B]

Just be honest with what you are doing... playing around with a young guy until the MM chases you hard.

another form of waiting around for someone who’s proven he’s not worth waiting for.

at the very least - don’t communicate with him until his divorce is FINAL. Then at least you have proof that he’s actually available physically.

[notmyfinestmoment]

Hi LilKatKat

Thank you for coming back to give your update....  I know that couldn't be easy especially knowing you would get some heavy handed feedback.   When I pour through old posts, I always wonder how the OP's story ends, so I appreciate you coming back to tell us where you are at.

With that being said, we are all walking our own paths.  No one is in your shoes.  Only you know what is best for you.   A lot of people are advising you based on their own experiences or what has happened in the past with your situation (they care and don't want you to get hurt again).  We all know how difficult affairs are, whether you are the MM/MW, BS, or OW/OM.  If it were that simple to extricate ourselves from them, this board wouldn't exist.   I know you are engaging with him again because he is showing you something different, otherwise I don't think you would even be talking to him (what his intentions are, I don't know). 

I am worried about your situation, so all I can say is be careful and protect that heart of yours!   I do hope that whatever you choose to do, it works out the way you want it to. 

[BourneWicked]

I like notmyfinestmoment's comment and generally agree with that. 

A thought; you really might know him the best. He might truly love you, and have had the deepest connection with you. So because you know him, the real him, it's really important to him that you recognize that this "isn't who he is." That he's made some mistakes (had some addictions, maybe) but see him for the good person he wants to believe he is. Which sounds great... until he decides he wants another OW, another affair, another bit of excitement, and needs to hit up the ol' dating websites again. 

Maybe not, but it's easy to be sober for a moment; a different thing to do it for weeks, then months, then years. 

Wishing the best for you!

-- a cheater, judging another cheater, sprinkle some salt on that advice

[S2B]

As long as you are putting ANY energy or focus on your MM - you won’t get to the point of moving forward.

he doesn’t intend for you to get past him... that’s why he makes sure to reach out often enough. It’s to his advantage if you’re thinking of him.

[Luna66star]

It is admirable that you truly care for him despite his brokenness.  I can see you will never let him go totally due to your caring & empathetic nature, and the deep connection between you.

Somehow he will always be on the outskirts of your life.  I can relate to this as I am a woman "who loves too much". Particularly the broken men.  I am drawn to their vulnerability and rawness.  I want to help them.  Yet after all my efforts, the last one being for 3 years, it was all in vain.  He didn't change or get professional help.  

It continues to be the same song and dance.  He apparently loves me but is always on the hunt for other women.  Oh and mine is still married with no plans of leaving because of all the yrs invested in his family.  I'm glad for that but it only means he reaches out to me when the wife & him are fighting or she won't give him more exciting sex. I am a side chick and always will be.  I believe he cares for me  but he cares about himself more. 

I desperately want to be supportive as that's my nature, to nurture the under dog.  Yet I cant detach in a way that allows me to get on with my own life and find a real relationship. 

I had to go totally cold on him to focus on dating others.  He hates me now and I feel very guilty at times for being an ice women.  He talks badly about me to others likely due to a feeling of abandonment.

In my situation, there was no other way than to shut off most of my feelings. Sounds like you are stronger than me and can "handle" him being on the periphery of your life.  And still move on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PhoenixRising8]

It has been a busy and eventful couple of weeks since I last posted. I'm sure I'll get plenty of backlash but for the sake of others who are going through affairs and break ups, I'm posting because one size does not fit all and might help others gain insights I wish I had previously. 

So between work and business travel, I've been very busy. Since I've returned from my cruise, I have not seen my "younger BF". Not sure how he became a BF to those on this board as we had only been seeing each other about a month before xMM came back into the picture and I started travelling again after the holidays. We were dating on a casual basis but I never considered us exclusive and if he did, he sure didn't say. Yes I like him but the connection is frankly not that strong. Since May, there has been only one guy I've felt an attraction for that could have turned to anything. Sadly he turned out to be a pig and I ditched him quickly. 

Its now been a 5 weeks since xMM left the BS, and 4 weeks since he left OOW.  He has been in pursuit of me. Some have said that he probably hasn't left one or both. That he probably enjoys having more than 1 woman chasing him. That BS threw him out because she found out he was cheating. So many assumptions. Here is the truth based on texts, emails, conversations between xMM and BS/OOW I have actually heard for myself. 

He had dinner with OOW 5 weeks ago Friday,  called me on the way home and told me he was telling BS everything, that he wanted a separation and he'd had 2 affairs one of which was ongoing. He did just that. She told him he could leave and he did, going straight to "Cat" (yes that is OOW. what are the odds? 2 blue eyed blondes, one Cat, the other Kat) after telling the kids. When I heard about everything that evening I had many unpleasant things to say: glad he found his balls finally, now I hope he chokes on them and finally goodbye and good riddance loser. That was the last until he contacted me 5 days later and asked me to reconsider giving him another chance at which point he broke up with Cat. All chronology and events verified by texts, emails and even a conversation with Cat (I'll get to that lol). One week after leaving BS, he left OOW. I was thousands of miles away, and did not tell him I was taking him back so his leaving was a risk for him. I had been clear since October when we reconnected platonically that a resumption of the affair was out of the question. I most certainly would not be the OW to the OOW. 

He was exemplary for 3 weeks. I was not. I questioned him, told him I didn't trust him. Wasn't sure if and when I could or would. A week ago Friday (3 weeks after leaving Cat) I asked him if he was going to pull another shift. I guess he had been feeling guilty about Cat, had been in touch to say he hoped she was well and that he was sorry how things worked out. When I doubted him yet again he said maybe he should be with Cat. She was the easier option: closer (20 miles, vs 60; no negative history together, still had him on a pedestal) My response was fine, I will pick up my belongings tonight (he had taken some things up as we had planned to spend last weekend together). Then I called Cat. 

Turns out she knew nothing about the fact he was in hot pursuit of me and had left her for me mid January, even though I hadn't agreed to reconcile. He had told her initially about me but when they started, we had not been in contact for almost 5 months. She thought he had decided to return to BS and had no idea we had been in contact since October (platonically only) or that but for my revelation to him about the letter to BS he had hoped to reconcile with me and end it with her. That he had several times in December and January asked me to reconcile. I think we all know how she felt. The following day, when she realized he intended to try to win me back, whatever it took, she became vindictive.  She posted on BS's Facebook that he dumped her for me.  He confirmed for BS that was true.

I went to pick my things up and confirmed he was waffling so I packed everything in a bag and had some things to say before I left. When he saw how matter of fact I was, he broke down and begged me to stay. He had panicked because he thought I would never let him back into my life. He felt bad about what he did to Cat and BS. In the end he knows, and has for a long time, that I am the one he wants a long term relationship with. He had a conversation with BS, who called while he and I were talking and the gist of that conversation (he put it on speaker) was as follows:  he wants to pursue an LTR with me, she wants to backdate the separation to 2 years ago March as he has not been a husband to her since at least then, acknowledged lack of intimacy, she can't understand how he can walk away from 30+ years for someone he only knows 2 years, that she still loves him, will forgive him and wants him back.  He has remained steadfast (for now) that he isn't returning.  He has been miserable for a long time and knows going back, now that he has taken the hard step of leaving, will only be more of the same.  Time will tell.

Here is what he has learned along the way (his words): he avoids conflict because he wants to please and minimize hurt but ends up hurting everyone, including himself, he sometimes acts impulsively when he finds himself in difficult circumstances and regrets it later, he needs to learn better coping skills and he has to stop avoiding conflict because it just makes things worse in the long term.  He has started IC.  This acknowledgement, self-awareness, honesty with all 3 of us (hopefully) and IC are all positive steps.  We shall see what comes of it.  He has also said that in retrospect he is thankful we did not follow through with our plans to live together when he separated and that he needs to live on his own for a while so that he can finalize the separation agreement and sort himself out through IC.  

All I know at this point is that he hasn't thrown me under the bus.  I have complete access to his electronic communication whenever I choose. Yes I know he can delete things but I have measures in place lol as I am tech savvy.  He has not provided my contact information to either whereas he has provided me with theirs.  Maybe that's his way of forcing himself to think twice when he panics because he knows I can hold him to account.

So why would I want this man, looks aside.  Because the man I met and knew for the better part of a year has many good qualities.  He had brought out the best in me and was very supportive during my trials and tribulations, even this past fall. He isn't just interested in the sex, he is interested in me. Many will say I can find that in someone else but the truth is, dating in your mid 50's and finding someone you connect with so amazingly, (even now) is not easy.  I can hardly hold against him our affair because he and I essentially did the same thing.  I found my honesty and integrity again, he can too if he works at it as I did, which he seems committed to do given he is in IC.  He has also said he would like to do some couples therapy with me.  Am I counting on it working out?  No.  That said, I am prepared to see how it goes.  I was able to grow and heal and I believe he can too.  He seems committed to doing the work but only time will tell if he succeeds.

He has done what most men, particularly in their 50's don't do.  He told BS 18 months ago he wanted out but she held on and continues to do so.  He actually left.  I have a clear conscience because I was not the AP of record when he did so.  He isn't living a lie anymore, having confessed everything to BS. He is taking steps to heal.  And for those that say he is a proven liar and cheat, so was I but I will never be that again.  I do know from the BFFs that is not who he has been his whole life (conversation he had with them on speaker phone while in my presence).  His conflict avoidant people pleasing persona finally broke him, as it did me.  He has hit rock bottom and needs to find his way back, just as I did. Where there is life, there is hope.

 

[elaine567]

10 minutes ago, LilKatKat said:

. Then I called Cat. 

Turns out she knew nothing about the fact he was in hot pursuit of me and had left her for me mid January, even though I hadn't agreed to reconcile. He had told her initially about me but when they started, we had not been in contact for almost 5 months. She thought he had decided to return to BS and had no idea we had been in contact since October (platonically only) or that but for my revelation to him about the letter to BS he had hoped to reconcile with me and end it with her. That he had several times in December and January asked me to reconcile. I think we all know how she felt.

You have apparently "won", seen off the competition, but what is it you have really "won"?
This is just more evidence of his ability to lie...

[quagmire2020]

On 1/18/2020 at 1:35 AM, LilKatKat said:

I posted the updated because we see a lot of beating up of the MM. yes they have their flaws but I was hoping to give another perspective. Sometimes they really are lost and broken. They do have feelings too. 

Thank you for your nuanced view of a normal imperfect human being. 

I was a MW who who fell in love with another Man. I realised that what I did hurt him and my husband and my extended family. I certainly did not intend to harm on purpose and I'm finding it hard to be called a monster and feeling like I am a monster and a very bad person. I want to believe that cheaters are just miserable and lost, no evil people, because I was one.