BaileyB Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, LilKatKat said: Everyone is assuming I'm just going to jump back in. I'm not. Kat, you must realize that you can support him and wish him well in creating for himself a life of honesty, authenticity, and respectability without actually holding his hand along the way. Being present for a conversation with his BFFs to discuss his various affairs and the breakdown of his marriage is NOT you staying out of things while he deals with his problems. I think if you are truly honest with yourself, you would acknowledge that you did not listen/participate in this conversation as his “friend” (that would not have been appropriate). Nor did you attend the dinner as his “former” affair partner - that would also have been very inappropriate. I would respectfully suggest, and I know you will completely disagree, that you are most definitely jumping back in - you may not be having sex with the man but he has drawn you back into his personal drama and you have most definitely volunteered to participate in the process... Edited January 29, 2020 by BaileyB 3 Link to post Share on other sites
spiritedaway2003 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, BaileyB said: Kat, you must realize that you can support him and wish him well in creating for himself a life of honesty, authenticity, and respectability without actually holding his hand along the way. Being present for a conversation with his BFFs to discuss his various affairs and the breakdown of his marriage is NOT you staying out of things while he deals with his problems. I think if you are truly honest with yourself, you would acknowledge that you did not listen/participate in this conversation as his “friend” (that would not have been appropriate). Nor did you attend the dinner as his “former” affair partner - that would also have been very inappropriate. I would respectfully suggest, and I know you will completely disagree, that you are most definitely jumping back in - you may not be having sex with the man but he has drawn you back into his personal drama and you have most definitely volunteered to participate in the process... Hmm, let me reframe the choices for Kat. At least based of the views here, she could either: Choose to never speak to him again. Because she could never be a friend to him, nor he is worthy of being a friend to her ever again. Keep in touch, continue to be drawn to the drama, and risk losing her BF. Kat, I guess the ball is in your court. Edited January 29, 2020 by spiritedaway2003 2 Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 FWIW, LKK, I think that he finally recognized he was going to stay unhappy in his marriage if he stayed in it. You showed him a happier situation and he couldn't go back "to that". He tried with the OOW and realized she wasn't doing it for him and also that he was just perpetuating unhappiness for himself with an OW band aid on it. He couldn't fix the marriage. That said, IF you actually take him back, where will he be in three years? Once the initial fun has faded. Will he start up again with OWs? I think it's really hard to say. As you've pointed out he's very good looking for his age and so forth and is the kind of guy who enjoys "sweet talking" a woman. Will you be wondering every time a cashier starts a spontaneous conversation with him if "this is it"? I think it might be wise to talk to the XW - but, as the OW I doubt she'd have much to say to you, right? You're "the enemy" to some extent. Is there someone you could ask somehow to talk to her to get her take "for real". Maybe you could ask these best friend people questions about the wife (if they'll play along). Dunno, it seems like you're taking a real gamble here, given the history. Not that that's so totally wrong or anything, but... Anyhow, GL! Link to post Share on other sites
anika99 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 On 1/28/2020 at 10:19 PM, LilKatKat said: Everyone is assuming I'm just going to jump back in. I'm not. I've learned a lot in the last year. The most important thing I have learned is that I am enough full stop. And he has no expectations other than reconnecting as friends because we were always very close. Sorry but this is similar to what you have said since the start. The whole "oh I know better this time, I'm not going to get taken in again. This time I'm not going to get suckered" only to get suckered over and over again. I don't know why he you are even entertaining him to the point that he is sending you all of that stuff. You have clearly given him reason to believe he can win you over again (kind of sounds like he already has) and of course he has expectations that he will reconnect with you as more than a friend. He has made that clear. We are not dumb on this board. We can see what is really happening in spite of the spin you attempt to put on it. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
notmyfinestmoment Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Hi LilKatKat Thank you for coming back to give your update.... I know that couldn't be easy especially knowing you would get some heavy handed feedback. When I pour through old posts, I always wonder how the OP's story ends, so I appreciate you coming back to tell us where you are at. With that being said, we are all walking our own paths. No one is in your shoes. Only you know what is best for you. A lot of people are advising you based on their own experiences or what has happened in the past with your situation (they care and don't want you to get hurt again). We all know how difficult affairs are, whether you are the MM/MW, BS, or OW/OM. If it were that simple to extricate ourselves from them, this board wouldn't exist. I know you are engaging with him again because he is showing you something different, otherwise I don't think you would even be talking to him (what his intentions are, I don't know). I am worried about your situation, so all I can say is be careful and protect that heart of yours! I do hope that whatever you choose to do, it works out the way you want it to. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
BourneWicked Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 I like notmyfinestmoment's comment and generally agree with that. A thought; you really might know him the best. He might truly love you, and have had the deepest connection with you. So because you know him, the real him, it's really important to him that you recognize that this "isn't who he is." That he's made some mistakes (had some addictions, maybe) but see him for the good person he wants to believe he is. Which sounds great... until he decides he wants another OW, another affair, another bit of excitement, and needs to hit up the ol' dating websites again. Maybe not, but it's easy to be sober for a moment; a different thing to do it for weeks, then months, then years. Wishing the best for you! -- a cheater, judging another cheater, sprinkle some salt on that advice 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Luna66star Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 It is admirable that you truly care for him despite his brokenness. I can see you will never let him go totally due to your caring & empathetic nature, and the deep connection between you. Somehow he will always be on the outskirts of your life. I can relate to this as I am a woman "who loves too much". Particularly the broken men. I am drawn to their vulnerability and rawness. I want to help them. Yet after all my efforts, the last one being for 3 years, it was all in vain. He didn't change or get professional help. It continues to be the same song and dance. He apparently loves me but is always on the hunt for other women. Oh and mine is still married with no plans of leaving because of all the yrs invested in his family. I'm glad for that but it only means he reaches out to me when the wife & him are fighting or she won't give him more exciting sex. I am a side chick and always will be. I believe he cares for me but he cares about himself more. I desperately want to be supportive as that's my nature, to nurture the under dog. Yet I cant detach in a way that allows me to get on with my own life and find a real relationship. I had to go totally cold on him to focus on dating others. He hates me now and I feel very guilty at times for being an ice women. He talks badly about me to others likely due to a feeling of abandonment. In my situation, there was no other way than to shut off most of my feelings. Sounds like you are stronger than me and can "handle" him being on the periphery of your life. And still move on. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 16, 2020 Author Share Posted February 16, 2020 It has been a busy and eventful couple of weeks since I last posted. I'm sure I'll get plenty of backlash but for the sake of others who are going through affairs and break ups, I'm posting because one size does not fit all and might help others gain insights I wish I had previously. So between work and business travel, I've been very busy. Since I've returned from my cruise, I have not seen my "younger BF". Not sure how he became a BF to those on this board as we had only been seeing each other about a month before xMM came back into the picture and I started travelling again after the holidays. We were dating on a casual basis but I never considered us exclusive and if he did, he sure didn't say. Yes I like him but the connection is frankly not that strong. Since May, there has been only one guy I've felt an attraction for that could have turned to anything. Sadly he turned out to be a pig and I ditched him quickly. Its now been a 5 weeks since xMM left the BS, and 4 weeks since he left OOW. He has been in pursuit of me. Some have said that he probably hasn't left one or both. That he probably enjoys having more than 1 woman chasing him. That BS threw him out because she found out he was cheating. So many assumptions. Here is the truth based on texts, emails, conversations between xMM and BS/OOW I have actually heard for myself. He had dinner with OOW 5 weeks ago Friday, called me on the way home and told me he was telling BS everything, that he wanted a separation and he'd had 2 affairs one of which was ongoing. He did just that. She told him he could leave and he did, going straight to "Cat" (yes that is OOW. what are the odds? 2 blue eyed blondes, one Cat, the other Kat) after telling the kids. When I heard about everything that evening I had many unpleasant things to say: glad he found his balls finally, now I hope he chokes on them and finally goodbye and good riddance loser. That was the last until he contacted me 5 days later and asked me to reconsider giving him another chance at which point he broke up with Cat. All chronology and events verified by texts, emails and even a conversation with Cat (I'll get to that lol). One week after leaving BS, he left OOW. I was thousands of miles away, and did not tell him I was taking him back so his leaving was a risk for him. I had been clear since October when we reconnected platonically that a resumption of the affair was out of the question. I most certainly would not be the OW to the OOW. He was exemplary for 3 weeks. I was not. I questioned him, told him I didn't trust him. Wasn't sure if and when I could or would. A week ago Friday (3 weeks after leaving Cat) I asked him if he was going to pull another shift. I guess he had been feeling guilty about Cat, had been in touch to say he hoped she was well and that he was sorry how things worked out. When I doubted him yet again he said maybe he should be with Cat. She was the easier option: closer (20 miles, vs 60; no negative history together, still had him on a pedestal) My response was fine, I will pick up my belongings tonight (he had taken some things up as we had planned to spend last weekend together). Then I called Cat. Turns out she knew nothing about the fact he was in hot pursuit of me and had left her for me mid January, even though I hadn't agreed to reconcile. He had told her initially about me but when they started, we had not been in contact for almost 5 months. She thought he had decided to return to BS and had no idea we had been in contact since October (platonically only) or that but for my revelation to him about the letter to BS he had hoped to reconcile with me and end it with her. That he had several times in December and January asked me to reconcile. I think we all know how she felt. The following day, when she realized he intended to try to win me back, whatever it took, she became vindictive. She posted on BS's Facebook that he dumped her for me. He confirmed for BS that was true. I went to pick my things up and confirmed he was waffling so I packed everything in a bag and had some things to say before I left. When he saw how matter of fact I was, he broke down and begged me to stay. He had panicked because he thought I would never let him back into my life. He felt bad about what he did to Cat and BS. In the end he knows, and has for a long time, that I am the one he wants a long term relationship with. He had a conversation with BS, who called while he and I were talking and the gist of that conversation (he put it on speaker) was as follows: he wants to pursue an LTR with me, she wants to backdate the separation to 2 years ago March as he has not been a husband to her since at least then, acknowledged lack of intimacy, she can't understand how he can walk away from 30+ years for someone he only knows 2 years, that she still loves him, will forgive him and wants him back. He has remained steadfast (for now) that he isn't returning. He has been miserable for a long time and knows going back, now that he has taken the hard step of leaving, will only be more of the same. Time will tell. Here is what he has learned along the way (his words): he avoids conflict because he wants to please and minimize hurt but ends up hurting everyone, including himself, he sometimes acts impulsively when he finds himself in difficult circumstances and regrets it later, he needs to learn better coping skills and he has to stop avoiding conflict because it just makes things worse in the long term. He has started IC. This acknowledgement, self-awareness, honesty with all 3 of us (hopefully) and IC are all positive steps. We shall see what comes of it. He has also said that in retrospect he is thankful we did not follow through with our plans to live together when he separated and that he needs to live on his own for a while so that he can finalize the separation agreement and sort himself out through IC. All I know at this point is that he hasn't thrown me under the bus. I have complete access to his electronic communication whenever I choose. Yes I know he can delete things but I have measures in place lol as I am tech savvy. He has not provided my contact information to either whereas he has provided me with theirs. Maybe that's his way of forcing himself to think twice when he panics because he knows I can hold him to account. So why would I want this man, looks aside. Because the man I met and knew for the better part of a year has many good qualities. He had brought out the best in me and was very supportive during my trials and tribulations, even this past fall. He isn't just interested in the sex, he is interested in me. Many will say I can find that in someone else but the truth is, dating in your mid 50's and finding someone you connect with so amazingly, (even now) is not easy. I can hardly hold against him our affair because he and I essentially did the same thing. I found my honesty and integrity again, he can too if he works at it as I did, which he seems committed to do given he is in IC. He has also said he would like to do some couples therapy with me. Am I counting on it working out? No. That said, I am prepared to see how it goes. I was able to grow and heal and I believe he can too. He seems committed to doing the work but only time will tell if he succeeds. He has done what most men, particularly in their 50's don't do. He told BS 18 months ago he wanted out but she held on and continues to do so. He actually left. I have a clear conscience because I was not the AP of record when he did so. He isn't living a lie anymore, having confessed everything to BS. He is taking steps to heal. And for those that say he is a proven liar and cheat, so was I but I will never be that again. I do know from the BFFs that is not who he has been his whole life (conversation he had with them on speaker phone while in my presence). His conflict avoidant people pleasing persona finally broke him, as it did me. He has hit rock bottom and needs to find his way back, just as I did. Where there is life, there is hope. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, LilKatKat said: . Then I called Cat. Turns out she knew nothing about the fact he was in hot pursuit of me and had left her for me mid January, even though I hadn't agreed to reconcile. He had told her initially about me but when they started, we had not been in contact for almost 5 months. She thought he had decided to return to BS and had no idea we had been in contact since October (platonically only) or that but for my revelation to him about the letter to BS he had hoped to reconcile with me and end it with her. That he had several times in December and January asked me to reconcile. I think we all know how she felt. You have apparently "won", seen off the competition, but what is it you have really "won"? This is just more evidence of his ability to lie... 3 Link to post Share on other sites
quagmire2020 Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 On 1/18/2020 at 1:35 AM, LilKatKat said: I posted the updated because we see a lot of beating up of the MM. yes they have their flaws but I was hoping to give another perspective. Sometimes they really are lost and broken. They do have feelings too. Thank you for your nuanced view of a normal imperfect human being. I was a MW who who fell in love with another Man. I realised that what I did hurt him and my husband and my extended family. I certainly did not intend to harm on purpose and I'm finding it hard to be called a monster and feeling like I am a monster and a very bad person. I want to believe that cheaters are just miserable and lost, no evil people, because I was one. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Artdeco Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, elaine567 said: You have apparently "won", seen off the competition, but what is it you have really "won"? This is just more evidence of his ability to lie... It’s not about who won. That’s ludicrous. Our affair was similar, and we’re now together. I’m not trying to make excuses for men who have affairs, but many men do have them, and so do women. After three decades of marriage, it’s difficult to split. Hence the waffling. It can be a lengthy process but at the end of the day you end up where you end up. They either divorce or they don’t. Whether or not you’re still available to them after they divorce depends a lot on how the communication has been all the way through their complicated times. It’s never all black-and-white is what I’m saying. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 16, 2020 Author Share Posted February 16, 2020 By the way, nothing in my post should be construed as advocating for affairs or taking cheaters back. Nor should anyone see it as giving false hope because the reality is that most men do not take the steps my xMM has. I'm merely trying to show a different side to the MM. It is possible they are genuine and conflicted, without the courage to do what they want to. What I am advocating for is to exit an affair so that you do not become the bandaid that holds a marriage together. A marriage should succeed or fail on its own merits. BS and I accepted his shenanigans and contributed to his becoming a complacent cake eater. She continues to want to accept whatever just to keep him. I will not and he knows it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 16, 2020 Author Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, elaine567 said: You have apparently "won", seen off the competition, but what is it you have really "won"? This is just more evidence of his ability to lie... I did not see off the competition. I did want her to know the truth. He could have chosen to pursue her and win her back. I have no doubt he could have. Yes, he has the ability to lie. We ALL do. That doesn't mean he isn't capable of honesty. In fact, he has primarily been honest with me, where he hasn't with Cat and BS. He has shared a lot about both those relationships but I know from Cat he shared little about me with her, other than my existence. He has protected our details from others. He has given me the power to keep him honest and he knows I will. If he continues the hard work of IC and heals, I think he will be worth winning. If not, I will know in due course and exit. He has even admitted that all his reasons for not leaving were nothing more than excuses as he was too afraid and unready to leave but he didn't want to lose me. So APs of MPs, they are where they chose to be. Stay with them and they perpetuate the cycle. Leave and you will truly see the score. I am astounded by how people ignore the positive steps he has taken. Edited February 16, 2020 by LilKatKat 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Crazelnut Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 Ooh, good rationalization of a poor choice. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 16, 2020 Author Share Posted February 16, 2020 As I said, astounding... Link to post Share on other sites
BaileyB Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, LilKatKat said: I am astounded by how people ignore the positive steps he has taken. It’s easy to be sober for a week. Let’s see where he is at in a year, or ten years. I do see concerning things in your update - he continued to “waffle” even after coming back to you. And, he lied to his most recent OOW about continuing to communicate with you. I just don’t believe that this is a bird who can change his feathers. I think he has deep, deep character flaws and you continue to ignore that fact. Sure, dating is difficult in your fifties - but I personally would rather be single forever than involved in this kind of drama with a deeply flawed partner. Obviously, I disagree with your decision to take him back. I think it’s a really big risk. But then again, history has a way of repeating itself until we learn the lessons we need to learn. I do wish you well. Edited February 16, 2020 by BaileyB 4 Link to post Share on other sites
heartwhole2 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 You say he's "primarily" been honest with you. Why did you give it a qualifier? He has "given you the power to keep him honest." You stepped in and informed BW and OOW when you felt things were getting out of hand. Do you think in healthy relationships one partner needs to mother the other? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Starswillshine Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Kat, I can understand the position. He is FINALLY coming around for everything he promised. He is finally doing what you always wanted him to do. I understand the need to want to see this out. The concerning part to me is not about him but about you. This man is a man who not only cheated on his wife as a "one off" but went to find another OW. You seem to think it is admirable that he chose you from his, as you put it, Rosie O'Donnell wife and this OW. Most women would learn that this man is married and run (but I get you were both married... and met on AM... which is yet another point of concern), but to hear that he is a serial cheat... that would be a huge deal breaker. Where is your self esteem? This man is not good partner material. He never was. You say it is hard to date in your 50s, imagine how hard it will be in your 60s when you find out he has yet another OW. Nothing about this man says he is someone who will be faithful. In fact, it says he cannot change. This was not a one off. But I get, too late, you already love him. I really get that. So the best thing I can say is that I wish you all the best. Even if I think you should ditch this loser. I think you ate making a huge mistake, but hopefully you can prove us all wrong. I just hope you are still in IC and working on your own issues. As to why you are allowing someone back into your life who has been such a liar and manipulator. And how you can get your self esteem back. As it seems from Day 1 of your posting this felt very competitive against the wife. Your worth isnt and shouldnt be based on the worth or lack thereof of someone else. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 18 hours ago, LilKatKat said: I did not see off the competition. Yes you did. You "informed" his wife and you have now "informed" his OOW... You are the last woman standing, though IMO you may need to keep one eye on his BW, and the other on his AM account... Be careful. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
heartwhole2 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 I believe in the maxim that we teach what we need to learn. Kat, I hope you'll go back and read your advice to other OW and the things you thought you had learned the first go around. Also pay attention to any time you make an excuse for going against the standard advice . . . making that fake account on AM, checking BW's social media regularly, contacting OOW and BW, etc. Try to see the patterns for what they are. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
Allupinnit Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 On 2/16/2020 at 4:01 PM, LilKatKat said: As I said, astounding... Gently I think what most of us find astounding is the great lengths you will go to to have this man in your life. The rationalizations, while the truth about him is no mystery considering how he conducts his life and treats the women in it. After you broke up you spent a great deal of time here warning other women about married men. That is until he came back, I guess.... WITH YET ANOTHER OW. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Allupinnit Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Also - I'm curious as to how his kids are taking it? Wasn't the reason he didn't leave because one of his kids has serious problems? How does it make you feel that he found another gf after you before leaving? Do you think it's because he doesn't want just one? I don't think that someone leaving their marriage after having multiple affairs, being called out, waffling, etc. really gives this man much credence, sorry. It was just the trajectory this whole thing was going in this whole time. Link to post Share on other sites
WasOtherWoman Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 I've been supportive of you LKK.. and have sympathized. But I have to say now... aren't you exhausted by all of this drama? There comes a point, even if two people love one another, that it is just not worth the baggage that will always be there. Even for an EMR, this feels like just way too much drama. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
hajk Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) https://www.loveshack.org/forums/topic/590871-should-i-make-contact/?do=findComment&comment=7729303 On 12/22/2019 at 6:05 PM, LilKatKat said: You have NO IDEA how much you sound like my x. He too says he has no regrets about us. That he loved me from the beginning and still does, even after what I did (long story). After 5 months of radio silence, he reached out while on vacation because he was so miserable. But in the end, unlike you, he can't leave. His adult son who lives at home is awaiting surgery, for the umpteenth time and he feels he has no choice but to stay. Do I believe him? I honestly don't know. What I do know is even if he left, I could never go back. I wouldn't trust him to stay gone. I wouldn't trust him to not close off with me like he did with her when the going got tough. Too much water under the bridge. We had an amazing friendship, compatiblity and had each other's back, until things soured. Another time, another place, who knows. But I do know that his flaws are fatal in my mind. He hasn't the backbone to be honest and that's a big one for me. He's prepared to live a lie the rest of his life thinking he's somehow doing everyone a favour and BS is quite prepared to allow it, without fuss. May sound hypocritical given we had an affair but I have proven to him that I do have integrity and am honest (related to the previously mentioned long story). Edited February 20, 2020 by hajk 1 Link to post Share on other sites
hajk Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 LKK, you gave great advice and amazing insight in other's post. I wish you take your own advice and keep moving forward and never go back. Best of luck! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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