Artdeco Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, elaine567 said: You have apparently "won", seen off the competition, but what is it you have really "won"? This is just more evidence of his ability to lie... It’s not about who won. That’s ludicrous. Our affair was similar, and we’re now together. I’m not trying to make excuses for men who have affairs, but many men do have them, and so do women. After three decades of marriage, it’s difficult to split. Hence the waffling. It can be a lengthy process but at the end of the day you end up where you end up. They either divorce or they don’t. Whether or not you’re still available to them after they divorce depends a lot on how the communication has been all the way through their complicated times. It’s never all black-and-white is what I’m saying. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 16, 2020 Author Share Posted February 16, 2020 By the way, nothing in my post should be construed as advocating for affairs or taking cheaters back. Nor should anyone see it as giving false hope because the reality is that most men do not take the steps my xMM has. I'm merely trying to show a different side to the MM. It is possible they are genuine and conflicted, without the courage to do what they want to. What I am advocating for is to exit an affair so that you do not become the bandaid that holds a marriage together. A marriage should succeed or fail on its own merits. BS and I accepted his shenanigans and contributed to his becoming a complacent cake eater. She continues to want to accept whatever just to keep him. I will not and he knows it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 16, 2020 Author Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, elaine567 said: You have apparently "won", seen off the competition, but what is it you have really "won"? This is just more evidence of his ability to lie... I did not see off the competition. I did want her to know the truth. He could have chosen to pursue her and win her back. I have no doubt he could have. Yes, he has the ability to lie. We ALL do. That doesn't mean he isn't capable of honesty. In fact, he has primarily been honest with me, where he hasn't with Cat and BS. He has shared a lot about both those relationships but I know from Cat he shared little about me with her, other than my existence. He has protected our details from others. He has given me the power to keep him honest and he knows I will. If he continues the hard work of IC and heals, I think he will be worth winning. If not, I will know in due course and exit. He has even admitted that all his reasons for not leaving were nothing more than excuses as he was too afraid and unready to leave but he didn't want to lose me. So APs of MPs, they are where they chose to be. Stay with them and they perpetuate the cycle. Leave and you will truly see the score. I am astounded by how people ignore the positive steps he has taken. Edited February 16, 2020 by LilKatKat 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Crazelnut Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 Ooh, good rationalization of a poor choice. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 16, 2020 Author Share Posted February 16, 2020 As I said, astounding... Link to post Share on other sites
BaileyB Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, LilKatKat said: I am astounded by how people ignore the positive steps he has taken. It’s easy to be sober for a week. Let’s see where he is at in a year, or ten years. I do see concerning things in your update - he continued to “waffle” even after coming back to you. And, he lied to his most recent OOW about continuing to communicate with you. I just don’t believe that this is a bird who can change his feathers. I think he has deep, deep character flaws and you continue to ignore that fact. Sure, dating is difficult in your fifties - but I personally would rather be single forever than involved in this kind of drama with a deeply flawed partner. Obviously, I disagree with your decision to take him back. I think it’s a really big risk. But then again, history has a way of repeating itself until we learn the lessons we need to learn. I do wish you well. Edited February 16, 2020 by BaileyB 4 Link to post Share on other sites
heartwhole2 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 You say he's "primarily" been honest with you. Why did you give it a qualifier? He has "given you the power to keep him honest." You stepped in and informed BW and OOW when you felt things were getting out of hand. Do you think in healthy relationships one partner needs to mother the other? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Starswillshine Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Kat, I can understand the position. He is FINALLY coming around for everything he promised. He is finally doing what you always wanted him to do. I understand the need to want to see this out. The concerning part to me is not about him but about you. This man is a man who not only cheated on his wife as a "one off" but went to find another OW. You seem to think it is admirable that he chose you from his, as you put it, Rosie O'Donnell wife and this OW. Most women would learn that this man is married and run (but I get you were both married... and met on AM... which is yet another point of concern), but to hear that he is a serial cheat... that would be a huge deal breaker. Where is your self esteem? This man is not good partner material. He never was. You say it is hard to date in your 50s, imagine how hard it will be in your 60s when you find out he has yet another OW. Nothing about this man says he is someone who will be faithful. In fact, it says he cannot change. This was not a one off. But I get, too late, you already love him. I really get that. So the best thing I can say is that I wish you all the best. Even if I think you should ditch this loser. I think you ate making a huge mistake, but hopefully you can prove us all wrong. I just hope you are still in IC and working on your own issues. As to why you are allowing someone back into your life who has been such a liar and manipulator. And how you can get your self esteem back. As it seems from Day 1 of your posting this felt very competitive against the wife. Your worth isnt and shouldnt be based on the worth or lack thereof of someone else. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 18 hours ago, LilKatKat said: I did not see off the competition. Yes you did. You "informed" his wife and you have now "informed" his OOW... You are the last woman standing, though IMO you may need to keep one eye on his BW, and the other on his AM account... Be careful. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
heartwhole2 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 I believe in the maxim that we teach what we need to learn. Kat, I hope you'll go back and read your advice to other OW and the things you thought you had learned the first go around. Also pay attention to any time you make an excuse for going against the standard advice . . . making that fake account on AM, checking BW's social media regularly, contacting OOW and BW, etc. Try to see the patterns for what they are. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
Allupinnit Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 On 2/16/2020 at 4:01 PM, LilKatKat said: As I said, astounding... Gently I think what most of us find astounding is the great lengths you will go to to have this man in your life. The rationalizations, while the truth about him is no mystery considering how he conducts his life and treats the women in it. After you broke up you spent a great deal of time here warning other women about married men. That is until he came back, I guess.... WITH YET ANOTHER OW. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Allupinnit Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Also - I'm curious as to how his kids are taking it? Wasn't the reason he didn't leave because one of his kids has serious problems? How does it make you feel that he found another gf after you before leaving? Do you think it's because he doesn't want just one? I don't think that someone leaving their marriage after having multiple affairs, being called out, waffling, etc. really gives this man much credence, sorry. It was just the trajectory this whole thing was going in this whole time. Link to post Share on other sites
S2B Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 On 2/16/2020 at 12:35 PM, LilKatKat said: By the way, nothing in my post should be construed as advocating for affairs or taking cheaters back. Nor should anyone see it as giving false hope because the reality is that most men do not take the steps my xMM has. I'm merely trying to show a different side to the MM. It is possible they are genuine and conflicted, without the courage to do what they want to. What I am advocating for is to exit an affair so that you do not become the bandaid that holds a marriage together. A marriage should succeed or fail on its own merits. BS and I accepted his shenanigans and contributed to his becoming a complacent cake eater. She continues to want to accept whatever just to keep him. I will not and he knows it. It’s a little surprising that you state this. having three people within any marriage isn’t the way to find out if the marriage will work or not. for a healthy marriage - the best possible outcome should be determined by the TWO people who got married! interference by that third person just makes it IMPOSSIBLE to determine if the marriage is healthy or not - mainly because someone is in the middle of all the LIES. once any affair enters a marriage - it’s really a moot point whether or not it was a good marriage - the one cheating has already ruined EVERYTHING about what would have been/could have been good! And then the cheater is TOO distracted with the affair to be real and realistic and honest about the marriage. so I don’t see this MM as anything you should consider - he’s been the perfect jerk all along. His wife likely got tired of all his crap. Link to post Share on other sites
S2B Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 On 2/16/2020 at 12:48 PM, LilKatKat said: I did not see off the competition. I did want her to know the truth. He could have chosen to pursue her and win her back. I have no doubt he could have. Yes, he has the ability to lie. We ALL do. That doesn't mean he isn't capable of honesty. In fact, he has primarily been honest with me, where he hasn't with Cat and BS. He has shared a lot about both those relationships but I know from Cat he shared little about me with her, other than my existence. He has protected our details from others. He has given me the power to keep him honest and he knows I will. If he continues the hard work of IC and heals, I think he will be worth winning. If not, I will know in due course and exit. He has even admitted that all his reasons for not leaving were nothing more than excuses as he was too afraid and unready to leave but he didn't want to lose me. So APs of MPs, they are where they chose to be. Stay with them and they perpetuate the cycle. Leave and you will truly see the score. I am astounded by how people ignore the positive steps he has taken. This consistent lying and cheating MM will never be viewed by me as a “winner”. I'm sorry LKK, You deserve better. It makes me sad for you that you think this is a man worth considering. hes been a very consistent jerk within his marriage this whole time. I would hate to think that may be you... and policing any man is no way to live. theres so many great men out there - this one isn’t worth it. He’s too consistent with the way he’s been a jerk. and he may not change his ways. And he may not finalize his divorce. Has it even been filed? Who filed? Link to post Share on other sites
WasOtherWoman Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 I've been supportive of you LKK.. and have sympathized. But I have to say now... aren't you exhausted by all of this drama? There comes a point, even if two people love one another, that it is just not worth the baggage that will always be there. Even for an EMR, this feels like just way too much drama. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
S2B Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 I still stand by my advice to not date him until the D is final. He could easily go back at any time... especially since his wife wants to reconcile. It’s also possible he makes her his OW in the future - he likes to have a plan for an OW waiting around. Link to post Share on other sites
hajk Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) https://www.loveshack.org/forums/topic/590871-should-i-make-contact/?do=findComment&comment=7729303 On 12/22/2019 at 6:05 PM, LilKatKat said: You have NO IDEA how much you sound like my x. He too says he has no regrets about us. That he loved me from the beginning and still does, even after what I did (long story). After 5 months of radio silence, he reached out while on vacation because he was so miserable. But in the end, unlike you, he can't leave. His adult son who lives at home is awaiting surgery, for the umpteenth time and he feels he has no choice but to stay. Do I believe him? I honestly don't know. What I do know is even if he left, I could never go back. I wouldn't trust him to stay gone. I wouldn't trust him to not close off with me like he did with her when the going got tough. Too much water under the bridge. We had an amazing friendship, compatiblity and had each other's back, until things soured. Another time, another place, who knows. But I do know that his flaws are fatal in my mind. He hasn't the backbone to be honest and that's a big one for me. He's prepared to live a lie the rest of his life thinking he's somehow doing everyone a favour and BS is quite prepared to allow it, without fuss. May sound hypocritical given we had an affair but I have proven to him that I do have integrity and am honest (related to the previously mentioned long story). Edited February 20, 2020 by hajk 1 Link to post Share on other sites
hajk Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 LKK, you gave great advice and amazing insight in other's post. I wish you take your own advice and keep moving forward and never go back. Best of luck! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) THE FINAL CHAPTER I thought it was time to post an update after all this time. It has now been over 3 weeks since I walked out on him and 3 days since I saw him last to pick up the last of my belongings. We are completely done and I am not looking back, ever again. I have little doubt he will never dare to contact me again however, he does have brass ones and is entirely shameless so it isn't beyond the realm of possibility. He picked me up at the airport on January 25 after my cruise. I left him in the dust March 7 and didn't look back. I think Bailey said upthread that he could keep it up for a few weeks or a few months but ultimately he would go back to lying and sneaking around. Bailey, before you have a chance to say "I told you so" I will say that you are right. Liars lie and cheaters cheat. He was not like me, he was merely mirroring me. Manipulating to make me believe he was like me, struggling to end a long marriage, getting caught up in an affair out of desperation to feel something other than despair and pain, sorry he didn't reach out to me instead of getting into another affair, afraid I'd never want him back after all of his waffling blah, blah, blah ... So here's the nutshell version. We were seeing each other very regularly for 6 weeks. It was mostly good although he did get a bit moody at times and would withdraw. I chalked it up to all the changes that happened in his life and the stress of the son about to undergo major surgery. Mostly I understood and tried to support him in any way I could. 2 weeks before we ended, Cat contacted him because apparently BS contacted her to get my phone number for emergency purposes as MM wouldn't give it to her and often wouldn't answer her calls or texts. That started conversations about Cat which I found increasingly annoying. He was feeling guilty about how he had treated her. The last counselling session he went to before I walked out, apparently the counselor said maybe he should reach out with a sincere apology. I told him his counselor had no idea what she was talking about and that if a relationship with me was what he wanted to pursue then contacting Cat was not in his best interest. on the Thursday night before I left him, we were on his Facebook and I saw that he had unblocked her profile and looked her up. He gave some mostly plausible explanation. His Facebook primary email was changed. On Friday, he received a notification on the email I had access to that the Facebook email had been changed back to his work email. He didn't know I knew. Saturday morning he was scrolling through his work email on his phone and I happened to catch a glimpse of her name. When he left the room, I went through his phone and saw she had messaged him on Facebook. I made him open up Facebook messenger and he was asking her if she could get past what he had done and consider being friends. He was so sorry. Visions of his message to me in October. That was it. I took all my belongings but for a few I couldn't and that was it. He is apparently now pursuing a relationship with her since I left. On Saturday when I saw him to pick up my belongings from him we had a conversation. Suddenly, I had visions of xH. He was telling me for the umpteenth time he had learned his lesson, acknowledged all the mistakes he made, hated who he had become, will never repeat his mistakes. And the piece de resistance? He may have done some terrible things but he did bring me back to life. He still loved me and missed me. All through tears. xH did the same. Always remorse and regrets through tears. Always saying he had learned. Lather, rinse, repeat. Suddenly it was all clear. I traded in one narcissist for another, albeit a nicer version. In the last 3 weeks I've had 6-7 hours of conversation with BS and I have had the opportunity to apologize to her. She threw him out when she found out about Cat and made him tell the kids. She now has his email to me with the separation agreement. She knows about everything from 2018, including how he ditched her on her birthday for me and the fact he shared her heartfelt birthday letter to him. She never did receive my package in October and we concluded he intercepted it so I sent her the PDF version. She had asked him why he had withdrawn so much money from the bank in 2018 ... she now knows. She knows about the cruises. As for Cat, she has our texts from October 2019 to present. She is appalled by some of the things he said to me. She can't get over how identical our messaging was. Neither one of us knew about the other until January. Looks like she isn't too anxious to take him back although BS still seems to want to fight for her marriage, heaven only knows why. If I sound like a vengeful cow, so be it. I call it ensuring he is held to account and forced to be honest with those innocent people he is hurting via me telling them. He is now trying desperately to talk to Cat because he knows she has our texts. He is sitting alone in a sparse 10X10 room trying to hold on to Cat. Looks good on him. Maybe he will finally reap what he has sown. As for me, I am good. I regret nothing. I will never again have an affair. I will never again fall for the charming pretty package that is rotten to the core. BTW - BS is lovely and gracious. Not at all what I was led to believe. She is not the negative person he portrayed her to be. In light of everything, she is actually quite positive. And our conversations were very civil. She accepted my apologies. I feel I have made some restitution by giving her the truth although I can never fully atone for what I have done. When we compared notes, we had the same impressions. Doesn"t handle stress well. Retreats from disagreements and gets moody. Wants fun and games but can't handle real life. To all BS everywhere, you deserve better. To all OW, don't believe him. Edited April 1, 2020 by LilKatKat 4 Link to post Share on other sites
simpycurious Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Not sure why anyone would want to be a second or third option for somoene. Obviously, not highly competitive people. That is a a crazy story Link to post Share on other sites
Starswillshine Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 I am sorry Kat to read this. But it sounds like you have gotten it all out of your system and may be able to see him for who he really is. What a d-bag. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
notmyfinestmoment Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 LilKatKat, Thank you for your update....I know that couldn't have been easy to come back here and tell us what happened (especially knowing you may get a few "I told you's"). We were all hoping the best for your situation. I am so sorry it ended that way. Honestly, I think most of us who have been OW really want to believe that something has changed, and when they come back after some time has gone by with proclamations that they have figured it all out, we so want to believe it (even if the history tells us otherwise). I remember a post a while back that said the OW's optimism is what is also our greatest downfall. I find that to be so true! I know you said you are doing ok, but if by chance you start the grieving process over again (after the anger wears off), we are here for you. I can't wait to see an update a year from now that says how happy you are with someone else! Hugs! Link to post Share on other sites
BaileyB Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) Hi Kat, just wanted to say that I am very sorry things didn't work out the way you had hoped they would. Although I think with some time and distance, you will be even more grateful for the fact that you truly dodged a bullet here. Wishing you a healthy and happy future. Edited April 1, 2020 by BaileyB 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 It does sound like he doesn't know how to be anything other than what he apparently is. C'est la vie, LKK. COVID will give you some good downtime to get your head on a bit straighter. Then you can start looking for someone new, IF you wish to. After all those years with your xH, your "type" may be narcissist, so suggest you proceed cautiously... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
S2B Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 I’m glad you had the opportunity to see who he really is... the typical MM who will always have an OW (or two). glad his wife knows what he’s capable of too. be glad to be rid of him. Link to post Share on other sites
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