How do I figure out what makes me unattractive?

[Inflikted]

I'd like to take a second to say, I wrote up this post, then came back to the top to make this message. I wrote the below from a place of anger and frustration. I was just venting. But I think it's still worth saying.

--

I just... I don't feel like anything is ever going to be "enough". And that's what's frustrating.

"You need to make more money!"

"You need a better job!"

"You need all kinds of activities to be more interesting!"

So, from what I gather, I need to work two jobs, I need to go back to school and get a bachelor's degree, I need to pick up, like, three new activities to meet people, etc.

I'm just tired of all the hoops, because they don't end. "I can't be truly happy until...", but then there's another thing after that. And again, I'm not balking at the idea of "work" or "effort". But it just seems like my life is "supposed" be an endless stream of "putting in the work" but never arriving at a place of true happiness in the end.

Can you at least see why I'm frustrated? I don't know anyone that has to spend every waking moment grinding away and getting nothing out of it. People generally have simple lives. They go to work, they come home and unwind, they spend time with loved ones, and that's life.

There are people who make less than I do, or can't hold a steady job, or don't have a car, or barely leave their house any more than I do, or have actual mental or physical issues, that still manage to find "love".

But apparently the only path for me is constantly jumping through hoops until the day I die, because I'm just never "enough".

I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. And don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the advice, and I never intend to reject any of it. But i don't feel like I know what's best for me, personally. It seems as though every choice I make is a poor one. I don't know what I want to do, or who I want to be. I'm just tired of feeling like I'm never "enough".

[nospam99]

OP, improving your career is NOT ONLY an economic action. It ALSO helps your self esteem which feeds back into your confidence which, in turn, is an asset in your social interactions, including dating.

I picked on ACR as an entry to HVAC because I know of a specific training path which is relatively quick (one year), easy to schedule (night school), and inexpensive (financial assistance available). I also know that there is significant and aggressive placement assistance in the program I am familiar with because of the high demand for even minimally trained potential employees.

CNC programming, suggested by Happy Lemming and carhill, and PLC programming, which I 'picked up' incidentally as part of a two-year Associate program in Electrical Technology, are other options. HL and carhill can better speak to the time and money investment required to learn CNC programming. Accounting has also been mentioned. I'm confident that there are many online training and degree career training programs that can be completed while continuing to work full time.

Again, the point is that improving your career potential has BOTH economic and confidence i.e. social benefits.

Socially, even while working to improve your career, meetup groups and adult eduction night classes have been suggested over and over again to LS to posters with questions and concerns similar to yours.

[nospam99]

Yes, life is tough and for many people they have to keep working and struggling to the day they die. And there's no guarantee that even with all the effort in the world you achieve your goals. The alternatives include, among other things, getting 'lucky' (win the lottery), giving up and just drifting through life, and turning your life over to an institution that will both care for you and make all your decisions, like a fraternal order of the Catholic Church.

Like other posters, I can only speak from my own experience. I had a 'direction' as far back as the age of ten and that direction included a goal of financial independence. I worked towards that goal constantly and, because times changed, I ended up somewhat achieving the goal, but only via a path that changed many times. I have two quotes related to my own path for you to consider. My high school coach (an Olympian, but not a medal winner) used to say ''Aim for the stars. You won't reach them, but you'll land pretty high.'' And something I said to a high school classmate at our 40th reunion - 'This is not what we thought we were signing up for.' (Class of '72 - just missed the Vietnam draft but America was still the land of outstanding economic opportunity .... until the next year when the 1973 Arab-Israeli War led to an oil embargo that permanently changed the world economy and broke heavily into the economic dominance of the US.)

Again, no guarantees. But always a path that at least appears to be leading 'upward'.

[Inflikted]

47 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

OP, improving your career is NOT ONLY an economic action. It ALSO helps your self esteem which feeds back into your confidence which, in turn, is an asset in your social interactions, including dating.

Sure.

The thing is, I'm not neglecting "career" out of laziness of unwillingness to put in the work. I just legitimately can't figure out what I "should" do. I've tried to figure out some kind of better career path that seems reasonable for me, but I've not found anything that I'm confident in myself to be able to learn and do well at.

If there were something I really believed I could learn to do well and succeed at, I'd pursue it. But as of yet, I've not found anything that inspires that sort of confidence.

[clia]

1 hour ago, Inflikted said:

I just... I don't feel like anything is ever going to be "enough". And that's what's frustrating.

"You need to make more money!"

"You need a better job!"

"You need all kinds of activities to be more interesting!"

So, from what I gather, I need to work two jobs, I need to go back to school and get a bachelor's degree, I need to pick up, like, three new activities to meet people, etc.

I'm just tired of all the hoops, because they don't end. "I can't be truly happy until...", but then there's another thing after that. And again, I'm not balking at the idea of "work" or "effort". But it just seems like my life is "supposed" be an endless stream of "putting in the work" but never arriving at a place of true happiness in the end.

People are answering the question you asked -- why you are unattractive.  People are giving you suggestions on potentially why -- you don't make enough money, your job isn't great, you don't do anything interesting, you don't go out and socialize, etc.  You don't have to improve upon all of these things at the same time.  But if you want to connect with people, you need something to connect about, and all you do is tell us how you don't have an "affinity" for anything, you don't have any interests, you don't care about other people's interests, you don't want to go anywhere, etc.  I'm curious -- what do you say about yourself on your online dating profiles?  What reason would any woman have to want to message you based on your profile?

I think the answer for you is to meet someone in person.  However, you will have to leave your house and engage in some activities to make that happen.  If it's too much "work" for you to do that, then it is what it is.  I'm also not sure why you think other people aren't "putting in the work" to achieve what they want out of life.  Almost everyone i know got some sort of schooling after high school, works, has hobbies and other activities that they participate in regularly, has things in life that they enjoy doing, volunteers, travels, leaves the house, etc.  No one is asking you to do anything outlandish here.    

[Inflikted]

1 hour ago, clia said:

If it's too much "work" for you to do that, then it is what it is.  I'm also not sure why you think other people aren't "putting in the work" to achieve what they want out of life.  Almost everyone i know got some sort of schooling after high school, works, has hobbies and other activities that they participate in regularly, has things in life that they enjoy doing, volunteers, travels, leaves the house, etc.  No one is asking you to do anything outlandish here.    

But that's not really far off from my life or the lives of the people around me. I, and most I know, DID pursue education and higher careers and it didn't quite work out the way we planned so we're making due with what we have. I do have hobbies and things I enjoy, but they're not things that are conducive to meeting people.

I'm not surrounded by people who make $30 an hour, or have interesting careers, or who do volunteer work on the side, or have big reoccurring social activities. The people I know have standard jobs making a few dollars more than me per hour, who spend time with their friends and significant others, and enjoy their little slice of happiness.

No offense, but I'm tired of hearing that I'm "not willing to work". I may have peaked low, but I refuse to allow the last 10+ years of my life to be trivialized as "no effort". I tried to find a better life for myself, and it didn't turn out the way I hoped. And that sucks. But I'm trying to do the best I can with what I have.

I'm sorry if I'm dismissive of actual suggestions, but the thing is, it's simply difficult to come up with new things that I want to go out and do because I want to do them. I'm not being "lazy" and refusing to pursue some thing that I'd like to try. My heart just isn't in volunteer work or in this activity or that activity. If I could find something I really wanted to do, I'd do it. Do you not think that frustrates me, too?

[Inflikted]

Yanno, maybe that's the thing. Maybe I'm not "enough", and I'll simply never be "enough".

I just wanted my own little slice of happiness, like everyone else. But I suppose I'm just not worth it. I suppose I'm just meant to keep grinding away at life all for nothing. Cool.

So, basically, nothing matters. My life is just one big grind with no room for love or true happiness, or any of that.

Ugh. I'm sorry, guys. I'm just mad and frustrated and upset, and I'm going through another mood.

[Happy Lemming]

3 hours ago, Inflikted said:

As for a second job, yes, I could do that, but if I'm currently living comfortably while I save money instead, why would I want to trade that off? This is working just the same, and I don't have to trade a comfortable living scenario for the stress of taking on additional hours of work.

Working a second job gets you to your financial goal faster... 

Who guaranteed you a life that was supposed to be about "living comfortably".  Unless you are a "trust fund baby" you have to make sacrifices when you are young, so you can acquire assets and begin to live more comfortably.

My first apartment (at 18) leaked when it rained, it was cold in the winter and hot in the summer.  It was a sacrifice I had to make in order to have a place to live while I saved for my first house. 

[Happy Lemming]

2 hours ago, nospam99 said:

Yes, life is tough and for many people they have to keep working and struggling to the day they die. And there's no guarantee that even with all the effort in the world you achieve your goals.

Re-read this passage by "nospam99"; I think it says it all...

[normal person]

2 hours ago, Inflikted said:

Sure.

The thing is, I'm not neglecting "career" out of laziness of unwillingness to put in the work. I just legitimately can't figure out what I "should" do. I've tried to figure out some kind of better career path that seems reasonable for me, but I've not found anything that I'm confident in myself to be able to learn and do well at.

If there were something I really believed I could learn to do well and succeed at, I'd pursue it. But as of yet, I've not found anything that inspires that sort of confidence.

Not everyone has the luxury of knowing, or even having, something they "should" do. Plenty of people take jobs they don't like, or are possibly overqualified for, just to survive and get the things they do want, because whatever circumstances landed them in that position. It sounds like you have 1). both a job that isn't what you "should" do, and 2). a job that doesn't bring you closer to the things that will make you happy at the pace that you want. So, if you can't figure out what job is "reasonable" for you, maybe it's time to just suck it up and get (or go to school to get) an unreasonable one that pays better, gets you out of your mom's house faster, earns you more respect, gives you more confidence, and makes you less unappealing. If you're intellectually or physically capable of a better job, then you should consider doing it to escape the box you're in. Whether or not it's something you think you "should" do is irrelevant. Do what you need to do, not just what you want or what's comfortable. 

To me, it seems as if those are your options. Stay with your current job and your current place in life and continue to be unhappy, or somehow advance your life with a better job (that you don't necessarily like) but will bring you closer to that slice of happiness that you're after. 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by normal person

[Inflikted]

1 hour ago, Happy Lemming said:

Who guaranteed you a life that was supposed to be about "living comfortably".

My point is that when you are in a position where you can live comfortably while saving money, it's hard to convince yourself to give that up. I didn't "ask" or "expect" to have a comfortable situation, but I do have one, and I see no reason to give that up.

35 minutes ago, normal person said:

Not everyone has the luxury of knowing, or even having, something they "should" do.

I think you misunderstand; I'm not talking about some sort of "dream job". I don't really care about that. I'm not set on a job that I "love", rather, I'm more concerned with having a job I feel confident I can do (and that I feel confident I can complete an education in). THAT is what I can't figure out -- something I believe I can reasonably learn to do well and be successful at. I don't care whether I "love" it or not. I just want to be able to actually perform the job well.

I think there's a bit of "lost in translation" happening here; I'm not unhappy with my current job. I was very miserable with the jobs I worked for the previous 10 years. But my current one is just fine. Admittedly, I do wish I were making a little more, but I don't dislike my current job at all.

1 hour ago, Happy Lemming said:

Re-read this passage by "nospam99"; I think it says it all...

Well, unfortunately, I think the reality may be that I've been right all along; that I'm not, nor will I ever be, "enough".

I apologize for any of my previous outbursts. Forgive me, it's not exactly easy trying to accept that I'll never be "enough" to earn someone else's love and affection. Almost makes life feel meaningless altogether.

[Happy Lemming]

5 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

... I see no reason to give that up.

 

Because it is unnatural for man to be living in his childhood room at 31 years old.

Do you want to be a man or a man-child?? If your choice is man-child, then don't expect to date a woman.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

12 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

My point is that when you are in a position where you can live comfortably while saving money, it's hard to convince yourself to give that up. I didn't "ask" or "expect" to have a comfortable situation, but I do have one, and I see no reason to give that up.

 

Then you simply don't want a relationship that badly.  Or maybe at all.  Are you using your living situation as an excuse subconsciously?

[Inflikted]

7 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Because it is unnatural for man to be living in his childhood room at 31 years old.

Do you want to be a man or a man-child?? If your choice is man-child, then don't expect to date a woman.

I feel like the term "man-child" is slightly extreme. My parents don't cook or clean for me or take care of me. They're basically "roommates".

Again, I have a plan and a timeline for my departure. And it's not like I'd be "dating" even if I tried to get out to my own place faster. So what am I really losing by choosing a comfortable living situation?

4 minutes ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

Then you simply don't want a relationship that badly.  Or maybe at all.  Are you using your living situation as an excuse subconsciously?

Eh? I don't really follow. Listen, I realize I'm not at a place RIGHT NOW to be able to date, but I'm not upset about "right now".

I'm upset because even when I do get that sorted out, it's not going to matter. The problem isn't that I "live at home". The problem is me. And the problem will still be me when I'm living on my own.

[nospam99]

Each of the OLD sites has a set of 'basic' questions that they ask the user to fill in. These are multiple-choice questions rather than essay questions. I never gave it a lot of thought before about how each of the sites picked those basic questions: stuff like Marital Status and whether you want children are common to most of the sites.

One of PoF's basic questions is how 'ambitious' you are. The choices are: Not, Somewhat, Ambitious, and Very. (I picked Ambitious to describe myself)

I'll assume that whoever set up those questions thought that the user's self assessment of how ambitious they are would be helpful to people viewing the profile to decide if that user was attractive, not in the physical sense, but as an aspect of their character and values.

OP, how ambitious are you?
Do you think how ambitious you are affects how attractive you are?
Does how ambitious a woman is affect how attractive she is to you?

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

6 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

 

Eh? I don't really follow. Listen, I realize I'm not at a place RIGHT NOW to be able to date, but I'm not upset about "right now".

I'm upset because even when I do get that sorted out, it's not going to matter. The problem isn't that I "live at home". The problem is me. And the problem will still be me when I'm living on my own.

With that attitude, you're right.  

[clia]

43 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Well, unfortunately, I think the reality may be that I've been right all along; that I'm not, nor will I ever be, "enough".

I apologize for any of my previous outbursts. Forgive me, it's not exactly easy trying to accept that I'll never be "enough" to earn someone else's love and affection. Almost makes life feel meaningless altogether.

So, I take it you've decided that you don't want to take any of the hundreds of pages of advice you've been given over the years on how you can be "enough" and how you can find happiness and improve your situation?  Okay then.  I feel like you are waiting and waiting for some magic solution to your problems, and there simply isn't one.  If you want a girlfriend, you need to do what you can to make yourself desirable and put yourself out there, even if it means you have to do some things you aren't that excited about doing.  There are plenty of totally average (and below average, frankly) people out there who have found love.  There is no reason why you can't do the same.  If you want to be better off financially, you need to find another job or find a better job.  It is what it is.  None of this is rocket science, but all require some action from you.  

[alphamale]

3 minutes ago, clia said:

So, I take it you've decided that you don't want to take any of the hundreds of pages of advice you've been given over the years on how you can be "enough" and how you can find happiness and improve your situation?  Okay then.  I feel like you are waiting and waiting for some magic solution to your problems, and there simply isn't one.  If you want a girlfriend, you need to do what you can to make yourself desirable and put yourself out there, even if it means you have to do some things you aren't that excited about doing.  There are plenty of totally average (and below average, frankly) people out there who have found love.  There is no reason why you can't do the same.  If you want to be better off financially, you need to find another job or find a better job.  It is what it is.  None of this is rocket science, but all require some action from you.  

Dayum Clia! You hit the nail on the head

[basil67]

A lot of this sounds like depression.  Even the parts where you can't find inspiration.   Do you have a diagnosis?  

[mrs rubble]

Your statement that "Ill never be enough" Is the centre of the issue, this is how a lot of people out of abusive relationships are after years of hearing things like "you're fat" "you're lazy" "you're ugly" hear it enough and you start to believe it. However you are the one who is abusing you by telling yourself these things. You need to believe that you will be enough for the right person and start developing some confidence and just get out there.

[mrs rubble]

BTW I have a male friend who is 5"1 and he's on his 3rd wife now, so it's not height.

[Inflikted]

56 minutes ago, nospam99 said:

OP, how ambitious are you?
Do you think how ambitious you are affects how attractive you are?
Does how ambitious a woman is affect how attractive she is to you?

It depends on how you define "ambitious". When I have something specific in mind, I like to think I'm ambitious enough to put my best foot forward. When it comes to things that are more vague, or things that have too much uncertainty and "maybe"s, I'd say I'm less ambitious.

I'm not really sure what I think of ambition as far as attraction goes. I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong or unattractive or about being content when one is in a good spot. The reality is, most people don't have big grand lives where you're constantly moving forward towards some new big goal. Most people hit a point where life is more about just trying to "maintain".

1 hour ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

With that attitude, you're right.  

Why is that? Are we all not in agreement that I'm the problem?

46 minutes ago, clia said:

So, I take it you've decided that you don't want to take any of the hundreds of pages of advice you've been given over the years on how you can be "enough" and how you can find happiness and improve your situation?  Okay then.  I feel like you are waiting and waiting for some magic solution to your problems, and there simply isn't one.

Much of the advice comes down to the fact that I need to get out more and meet more people, and that I need to work towards being good enough financially to live on my own. And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to downplay or trivialize that advice. But I already understand those are things that I need to work on. Yet, even once those conditions have been fulfilled, it still leaves the question of how I'm supposed to convince someone they actually like me more than in a platonic way.

Improving my money (and therefore, living) situation is something that takes time. I'm not really in a terrible place, money-wise; again, with another raise or two, I should be just fine.

Figuring out things to do as far as getting out and meeting people is simply very difficult and not necessarily very tangible. I just can't find anything that piques my interest enough to want to go out and do, and I'm not an "adventurous" enough person to just pull random ideas out of a hat and just go do them. Finding ways to meet new people is just hard, after you get out of the college years.

And I don't believe I'm the only person that feels that way. Two women I work with, for instance, one being a couple years younger than me, the other a few years older, both frequently lament that they don't know where to go to meet new men, other than bars (which they don't like, because it typically doesn't go well). My one friend has also told me that if she weren't with her current boyfriend, the only way she'd know to meet people is at bars; her boyfriend also told me that before her, the only girls he dated were ones he met through work.

So, while I realize it's not "outlandish" to advise getting out and meeting new people, I'm not exactly the only one who struggles to come up with ways to get out and meet people. It doesn't necessarily seem like finding new things to do and places to go is really that easy for anyone.

42 minutes ago, basil67 said:

A lot of this sounds like depression.  Even the parts where you can't find inspiration.   Do you have a diagnosis?  

No diagnosis, but I don't really think that I am. I feel like I'm just as... er... what's the opposite of depressed? Anyway, I feel like I'm just as "not depressed" as your average person. The only thing that actually affects me is my unlikeliness to ever find a partner. Beyond that, I feel good and I feel like life is good.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

29 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Why is that? Are we all not in agreement that I'm the problem?

Well, if the choice is either you or everyone else, yes, you're the problem.  Who else would be the problem?

I don't think you're depressed, but you are an extreme pessimist and catastrophizer--you seem to be very anxious because you have reasons why everything won't work or everything would be too hard (so maybe you're also lazy).  You're an Eeyore about what you insist will be when you're actually ready for a relationship.  With that mindset, you certainly will be alone forever.

From Google: 

Catastrophizing is an irrational thought a lot of us have in believing that something is far worse than it actually is. Catastrophizing can generally can take two different forms: making a catastrophe out of a current situation, and imagining making a catastrophe out of a future situation.

[Inflikted]

7 minutes ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

I don't think you're depressed, but you are an extreme pessimist and catastrophizer--you seem to be very anxious because you have reasons why everything won't work or everything would be too hard

Sure, that sounds accurate enough, I suppose.

7 minutes ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

You're an Eeyore about what you insist will be when you're actually ready for a relationship.  With that mindset, you certainly will be alone forever.

Well, what mindset am I supposed to have? I only really base it off of facts and numbers. The fact is, in the past 10+ years, I've not "romantically connected" with any of the hundreds of people I've met in that time through school, work, or whatever. Under that circumstance, what am I supposed to think?

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Just now, Inflikted said:

Well, what mindset am I supposed to have? I only really base it off of facts and numbers. The fact is, in the past 10+ years, I've not "romantically connected" with any of the hundreds of people I've met in that time through school, work, or whatever. Under that circumstance, what am I supposed to think?

A CAN DO mindset instead of a CAN'T.  Work on being a more optimistic and positive person. Nobody wants to be around a Negative Ned. There are plenty of books and therapy modalities for this.  

"'Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right."