How do I figure out what makes me unattractive?

[Inflikted]

21 minutes ago, CautiouslyOptimistic said:

A CAN DO mindset instead of a CAN'T.  Work on being a more optimistic and positive person. Nobody wants to be around a Negative Ned. There are plenty of books and therapy modalities for this.  

"'Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right."

Well, in fairness, the only thing I have a "can't do" mindset towards is the whole "love life" thing. Beyond that, I would say I'm generally a positive and upbeat person. And since dating isn't even something I actually can do right now, it's not really hurting anything at the moment, is it?

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Just now, Inflikted said:

Well, in fairness, the only thing I have a "can't do" mindset towards is the whole "love life" thing. Beyond that, I would say I'm generally a positive and upbeat person. And since dating isn't even something I actually can do right now, it's not really hurting anything at the moment, is it?

I'd argue all of this negative self talk about your inability to find love is hurting yourself.  Brain pathways and all that.

[normal person]

3 hours ago, Inflikted said:

I think you misunderstand; I'm not talking about some sort of "dream job". I don't really care about that. I'm not set on a job that I "love", rather, I'm more concerned with having a job I feel confident I can do (and that I feel confident I can complete an education in). THAT is what I can't figure out -- something I believe I can reasonably learn to do well and be successful at. I don't care whether I "love" it or not. I just want to be able to actually perform the job well.

I think there's a bit of "lost in translation" happening here; I'm not unhappy with my current job. I was very miserable with the jobs I worked for the previous 10 years. But my current one is just fine. Admittedly, I do wish I were making a little more, but I don't dislike my current job at all.

I think you misunderstand, I'm not talking about a "dream job" either. I'm talking about a better paying, more respectable job that you do and deal with regardless of how much confidence you have or how comfortable you feel. What I'm suggesting is you deal with the discomfort of that and find the will power and ambition to figure it out and bear it if it brings you closer to what you want. Liking your job, feeling good about it, and feeling confident about it are luxuries. Right now, the only reason you don't have a better one is because you think they're necessities. But you can compete for a better job with all the other people who don't feel great about their jobs, and are perhaps even incompetent. There are people less competent than you with better jobs who just happen to be more driven, less fearful and/or less particular. Those people find ways to do things, you're finding excuses not to do them. 

[Happy Lemming]

2 hours ago, Inflikted said:

Improving my money (and therefore, living) situation is something that takes time. I'm not really in a terrible place, money-wise; again, with another raise or two, I should be just fine.

The problem with this action is by the time you get "another raise or two" the cost of living will go up. Your other fixed expenses will have gone up in price, as well. So you will be at basically the same level as you are right now.

Case in point, my car/truck insurance just went up by $15/month.  I called my agent to ask why and he said it was the cost of doing business and everyone got an increase, so I'll pay it.  (they are still cheaper than other companies).

If you are going to own a house, keep in mind... the utilities go up every year, the real estate taxes go up every year, the house insurance goes up every year, cost of repairs/materials. As time passes your vehicle will age, so cost of repairs will increase, food will go up in price and the list goes on and on.

Waiting and doing nothing isn't an option if you want to save up money (quickly) and purchase a home.

[Happy Lemming]

2 hours ago, Inflikted said:

And I don't believe I'm the only person that feels that way. Two women I work with, for instance, one being a couple years younger than me, the other a few years older, both frequently lament that they don't know where to go to meet new men, other than bars (which they don't like, because it typically doesn't go well). My one friend has also told me that if she weren't with her current boyfriend, the only way she'd know to meet people is at bars; her boyfriend also told me that before her, the only girls he dated were ones he met through work.

So, while I realize it's not "outlandish" to advise getting out and meeting new people, I'm not exactly the only one who struggles to come up with ways to get out and meet people. It doesn't necessarily seem like finding new things to do and places to go is really that easy for anyone.

So three people you know struggle with the ability to meet people, so therefore you have deemed it useless to go out and attempt to meet new people, talk to women, etc.

I could counter with myself and several of my male friends have never had difficulty meeting women at pubs (or other places in real life) and have been quite successful.

You want to continue to "hole up" in your room based on the small statistical sampling of 3 people, when there are 6-7 billion people in the world?? Most of which are meeting new people because they leave their house and go out into public.

[amaysngrace]

You need to read a self-help book.

or two

[fromheart]

Don't worry about your height, I've had male friends your height who had no problem getting women whatsoever.  Besides, there's this place many people in the west don't know much about.  It's called the rest of the world.  In parts of Asia, you'd be of average height.  And the women in Asia can be incredibly beautiful, to say the least.  You may find yourself preferring Asian women, to western women.

Bottom line is that you have to happy with yourself.  Perfection doesn't exist in humans, even if you were born good looking that will fade one day.  What you have to do is optimize what you have.  Don't focus on what a woman may want, focus on just being happy.
What shape is your body in?  What is the state of your mind?  This is more important than your height.

A good time to date, is when your perfectly happy to not date.  A nice date would make you happy, but you are perfectly content to be at home by yourself.  Fill your life and home with positive things that you love, positive habits.  Working out, music, origami, books whatever it is that you love and are passionate about. 

[Inflikted]

48 minutes ago, normal person said:

I think you misunderstand, I'm not talking about a "dream job" either. I'm talking about a better paying, more respectable job that you do and deal with regardless of how much confidence you have or how comfortable you feel. What I'm suggesting is you deal with the discomfort of that and find the will power and ambition to figure it out and bear it if it brings you closer to what you want. Liking your job, feeling good about it, and feeling confident about it are luxuries. Right now, the only reason you don't have a better one is because you think they're necessities. But you can compete for a better job with all the other people who don't feel great about their jobs, and are perhaps even incompetent. There are people less competent than you with better jobs who just happen to be more driven, less fearful and/or less particular. Those people find ways to do things, you're finding excuses not to do them. 

That seems like an odd perspective, to me. I mean, sure, there are undoubtedly incompetent people doing higher paying jobs, but that seems like a pretty risky line to walk. If you screw up and get fired, then what? I'd imagine if you're not competent enough for a job, you probably have to be pretty decent at BSing your way into the roles to begin with, which also isn't my forte. I'd rather bank on skill and knowledge (or at least potential), rather than banking on luck and an ability to BS your way through a job I'm not equipped to do.

35 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

The problem with this action is by the time you get "another raise or two" the cost of living will go up. Your other fixed expenses will have gone up in price, as well. So you will be at basically the same level as you are right now.

True. Even still, I could potentially move up, to a degree, where I'm at now, and ideally get a better raise from doing so. Might take time, though, as it doesn't seem like roles open up super frequently. Or, if/ when I do shift to another job, I'm sure I'd get a slight pay bump.

Truth be told, I think I could've gotten a couple more dollars from my current job, but I'm really bad at negotiating that kind of thing, so I sorta screwed myself over on that. I have to try to remember that for next time...

22 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

So three people you know struggle with the ability to meet people, so therefore you have deemed it useless to go out and attempt to meet new people, talk to women, etc.

That's not necessarily what I'm saying. I'm just saying that I don't think it's as easy to meet new people and find new activities to do as some people make it out to be. Beyond my own "samples", I feel like I've seen that idea thrown around a bit online, that it's difficult to meet people.

I think people who don't have much trouble picking up new activities and meeting people don't quite understand how others can struggle with it. It might come easy for some people, but others like myself can't necessarily just come up with new things to do and meet people all the time.

[Happy Lemming]

2 hours ago, Inflikted said:

 I'm just saying that I don't think it's as easy to meet new people and find new activities to do as some people make it out to be.

"Practice makes perfect" - John Adams

[clia]

12 hours ago, Inflikted said:

That's not necessarily what I'm saying. I'm just saying that I don't think it's as easy to meet new people and find new activities to do as some people make it out to be. Beyond my own "samples", I feel like I've seen that idea thrown around a bit online, that it's difficult to meet people.

I think people who don't have much trouble picking up new activities and meeting people don't quite understand how others can struggle with it. It might come easy for some people, but others like myself can't necessarily just come up with new things to do and meet people all the time.

You are correct that a lot of people like to talk about how difficult it is to meet new people.  So, wouldn't it stand to reason that there are a lot of people out there looking for the same thing --- to meet new people?  

About five years ago I moved to a new city.  I had to meet people if I wanted to have friends.  So, I threw myself into it.  I joined a volunteer organization, a book club, and a sports league.  I also went to Meetups.  It was not easy for me because I'm an introvert and I'm naturally shy until I get to know people.  But I persevered, went to a lot of things (that sometimes I didn't really feel like going to), and I'm at a point where I have a big friend/acquaintance group of all different kinds of people.  Was it hard?  Well, in the sense that I had to get off my butt, go to things, and sometimes put myself into positions where I didn't completely feel comfortable.  But hard, in the grand scheme of life?  No.  Was it worth it?  Yes.  So, I have to be honest -- when people now tell me how difficult it is to meet new people as an adult....I don't believe them.  Yes, it's my anecdotal experience, but I found many people looking for friends.  I just had to put myself in a position to find them.  And when  I did a bit of research in my community, I found all kinds of ways to find them -- Meetups, sports leagues, book clubs, community events, volunteer organizations, board game groups, card game groups, etc.  

You can meet new people and engage in new activities.  But yes, you do have to get off your butt and do something to make it happen, which I suppose many people might find to be "difficult.".  

Edited January 24, 2020 by clia

[Inflikted]

2 hours ago, clia said:

About five years ago I moved to a new city.  I had to meet people if I wanted to have friends.  So, I threw myself into it.  I joined a volunteer organization, a book club, and a sports league.

Well, may I ask, what made you choose those specific things? Why did you want to join a book club? Why did you choose the type of volunteer work that you did? Why did you choose the sports league that you did? When you used Meetup, how did you choose what groups to try to get involved with?

[clia]

26 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Well, may I ask, what made you choose those specific things?  Why did you want to join a book club?

I read books.  

Quote

Why did you choose the type of volunteer work that you did?

Their local chapter was right by my house.  

Quote

Why did you choose the sports league that you did?

It was close by my house and was a sport I saw on TV occasionally.  I had never played it before.  

Quote

When you used Meetup, how did you choose what groups to try to get involved with?

I eat food, so I went to dinner, lunch, and brunch groups.

I drink wine, so I went to wine groups.

I drink beer, so I went to groups that visit different breweries in the area.

I hike, so I went to hiking groups.

I run, so I went to running groups.

I though happy hour groups might be a good place to meet people, so I went to happy hour groups for people in my age range.

I thought it would be good to explore my new area, so I went to groups that went places -- museums, local attractions, sporting events, local events, etc.  

And yes...I know where you are going with this.  There is absolutely nothing in the entire world that interests you or that you like, so you wouldn't have the first clue on how to find a group or activity that you should try or do.  🙄  And as I've said to you before when I've made the same suggestions in the past (I don't know why I keep getting roped into this carousel), I'm not suggesting that you have to do the same things I did, so please save your breath to tell me that you don't read or you don't run, etc.  so these types of things do not appeal to you.

Edited January 24, 2020 by clia

[RecentChange]

Inflikted....

Look, you claim you aren't a Debbie downer, that you are all and all a happy positive guy who for some bizarre reason likes to belly ache on here with an alternate persona as a miserable person.

Your responses in this thread - is this "you" or your miserable alter ego?

Because all of your responses are so overwhelming negative and honestly, display an unattractive personality - so maybe this isn't "you"? The real you has ambition, a can do attitude, optimism? And you are just hiding it because you enjoy arguing on the internet?

Which is it? Because if you are truly wondering WHY you are unattractive, to me this thread, and all of your responses are the case in point. 

People are attracted to interesting, postitive, full of life people. If you aren't that, and have absolutely no desire to cultivate interest or personality - well then simply accept your fate. 

[Inflikted]

20 hours ago, clia said:

And yes...I know where you are going with this.  There is absolutely nothing in the entire world that interests you or that you like, so you wouldn't have the first clue on how to find a group or activity that you should try or do.  🙄  And as I've said to you before when I've made the same suggestions in the past (I don't know why I keep getting roped into this carousel), I'm not suggesting that you have to do the same things I did, so please save your breath to tell me that you don't read or you don't run, etc.  so these types of things do not appeal to you.

I understand. It's just difficult to come up with things to go out and do when there's really nothing that's piquing my curiosity or interest, for the most part. It's not that I don't want to have a little more going on in my life, but I don't really have any ideas as to what. I don't mean to be "difficult". But when most people try new things or seek out some new activity, there's some "thing" that pulls them to those activities. I'm not trying to say that there's "absolutely nothing in the world that interests me", it's just...

Well, let me try to make a little comparison. Have you ever heard of the thing that happens to people where they're looking for something to watch on Netflix or Hulu or whatever, and they just end up scrolling through the various shows and movies, but ultimately can't land on anything, and then they just end up spending their time looking for something to watch rather than actually watching something? That's essentially the way I feel about trying to find new activities. I mean, it's not exactly the same, but it's a pretty close comparison.

19 hours ago, RecentChange said:

Look, you claim you aren't a Debbie downer, that you are all and all a happy positive guy who for some bizarre reason likes to belly ache on here with an alternate persona as a miserable person.

Your responses in this thread - is this "you" or your miserable alter ego?

Unfortunately, it's mostly the "character" version of me. Ever since I recognized my whole "character in a tragic story" thing, I've been trying hard not to slip into it, and for the most part, I've been keeping my head above the water, so to speak, but it's difficult to not fall back into it from time to time, given how I've spent my whole life playing it. I suppose it's a process.

[nospam99]

ya know, Inflikted, one answer to your subject question is that your unwillingness to 'go out on a limb' is at least one thing that makes you unattractive. I'll be interested, now that I whacked you between the eyes with a figurative 2x4, to see if other posters agree or disagree.

I'll pick on ballroom dancing because it's one of my 'things'. You (or another poster - I remember Happy Lemming picking on something like going out to eat at a Chinese takeout) can pick on something else if you like. A couple of positive factors about ballroom dancing are that you can't avoid the social aspect, you can't easily limit the time to insignificance, you pretty much have to deal with women, and, yet, you can still be totally stoic and noncommittal about it. It's just a co-ed gym class.

I assume you have 'no interest' in ballroom dancing. But ....
Is there a 'cheap' (Arthur Murray and Fred Astaire are chains that cost several times as much as 'mom and pop' businesses) studio near you?
Do you have the time (one hour night class) and money ($15 for one group lesson where I live)?

How about your 'force' yourself to research and go to ONE lesson? This can be only for the purpose of doing something social, incidentally with women (who may be old enough to be your grandmother).

[GeorgiaPeach1]

On 1/22/2020 at 6:54 PM, Inflikted said:

 

It's disappointing to think that my height will mean a life of being forever single. 😕

Sounds like your standards may be a little too high. Since you're short, are you willing to accept a woman with extra weight? Or who is a single parent? Or who doesn't have a college degree? Or who is a tad older? If not, you could be missing out on a great match.

[Inflikted]

On 1/25/2020 at 11:37 AM, nospam99 said:

How about your 'force' yourself to research and go to ONE lesson? This can be only for the purpose of doing something social, incidentally with women (who may be old enough to be your grandmother).

Yeah, I suppose it's an idea to consider.

Honestly, my hope is that when I get out into my own place to live, I'll find a better sense of motivation to go out and try new things. My current living situation feels a bit "toxic" and leaves me feeling deflated and without the energy or motivation to do something more with myself.

I'll be honest, there's two admittedly irrational concerns I have about actually trying to get out into the world and meet people right now.

1) This is the less likely scenario, but still possible; I worry I'll actually meet someone I fall for, but won't be able to pursue her because I haven't gotten my living situation taken care of yet.

2) This is the more likely scenario; say, for example, I do pick a Meetup group to try out. Knowing how I am, I know I would end up being a bit of a "wallflower". I'd keep to myself, I wouldn't interact with anyone, and I'd just sit on the sidelines watching everyone else, and feeling bad about myself for being on the outside looking in. Then, in turn, I'd discourage myself from going again, and from trying other things.

7 hours ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

Sounds like your standards may be a little too high. Since you're short, are you willing to accept a woman with extra weight? Or who is a single parent? Or who doesn't have a college degree? Or who is a tad older? If not, you could be missing out on a great match.

I really wouldn't say I have high standards. To be honest, the highest expectation I would ever have for a partner is to equal to me in whatever facet of life we're talking about. Granted, if a woman who is "better" than me decided that, for some absurd unrealistic reason, that she was attracted to me, I wouldn't exactly say no, but as far as my own expectations, I use myself as the barometer.

Like, looking at your examples, I don't expect her to necessarily have a degree or some kind of cool fancy job making $30 an hour. But I would hope she's working full time making in the range of what I make; in the future, I really don't want a "stay at home house wife", and I'd prefer to have a dual income household. Age isn't necessarily a factor for me, unless it makes it difficult for us to relate to each other well. As for weight, ideally, I'd prefer someone in my body type range (meaning, I know I'm slightly chubby and I don't mind if she is, as well), though I don't know that I'd be attracted to someone who's much larger than me.

The closest thing to a deal breaker would be kids, but it's not necessarily a hard no from me. I just don't care for children, would prefer not to have any of my own, and don't necessarily want to be involved with someone else's. I think if I had a relationship or two without kids involved, I'd be more receptive to it after the fact, but as someone who doesn't even know how to be in a relationship with someone, I'm not super eager to jump straight into a relationship with someone who also has kids and whatever situation with their ex. That's just a lot of extra stuff to work with when I don't even know the "basics", yanno?

In any case, I'm not exactly expecting to end up with some rich career driven woman who also happens to have super model good looks. I very much expect to stay in "my league". The problem I find is, I don't feel like I actually know what "my league" is, and in fact, I believe I have something of an "inferiority complex", which I think may be the leading contributor to my inability to become personally attracted to anyone.

No matter what, I see myself as "inferior" to everyone else. Even if/ when I take care of the remaining issues I need to work on about myself, I think I'd still likely invent reasons why I'm just not good enough for this person or that person. "She's better off than me, career or money-wise, so she'd never consider dating down to me", "She's too physically attractive to consider dating down to me", etc.

And I know, that's cue for the therapy recommendations again. I'm keenly aware of this issue, though, and it's an ongoing process. When I've spent my whole life being told that I am inferior and that I am worse and that I am unlovable and that I am worthless, it's difficult to rise above that. And realistically, I'm self aware enough to know that that's all ridiculous, and that I'm no more "worse" or "inferior" than your average "working class Joe". But those years of self doubt and zero confidence are tough to work past. Especially when very few have ever shown me that I am "worth" something. Don't get me wrong, I'm not wishing someone would come along just to stroke my ego, but it's helpful whens someonecomes along and shows you that you are worth it.

I suffer from a lot of insecurities, I admit. Everyone has insecurities. Unfortunately, it's just that mine kept piling on over the years, and there was never anyone there to say "Hey, forget all that BS, I think you're swell and you shouldn't worry about any of that stuff!".

That's why I'm grateful for my current friends. Heck, it still feels borderline bizarre, to me, that they've been so accepting of me. It even feels like they enjoy my company more than some of their other friends. And that's helpful to me. Although, I admit, self doubt creeps into my head from time to time, and I wonder "Why do they like me? Do they really like me or are they just feeling sorry for me? Do they actually think of me as a friend, or just some charity case?".

Getting back to the subject of dating, figuring out who's actually in "my league" is tough. Especially because I'm not driven by physical attraction. I couldn't walk into a bar, scan the room, and pick out girls I'd like to talk to just from glancing at them.

I think I also expect that people are a bit more "shallow". Maybe that's me being overly pessimistic, or maybe I'm right. But the thing is, I often look at myself in the mirror and just can't imagine any adult woman finding me physically attractive. And my main point of contention is actually my face. I'll be honest, I really, really hate my stupid looking face.

I have the face of a 12 year old boy. And combined with my height, that doesn't help my case. But I very much have the face of a prepubescent child, of "someone's little brother". And I hate it. But there's nothing I can really do about it, except maybe drastic plastic surgeries, I guess. I'm hoping to grow better facial hair; I've spent the last few months using a product to try and make hair grow. I've seen very small results, which is nice, but at the rate it's going, it'll probably be another year or two before it actually grows in. And that's IF it grows in. And then maybe then, I won't look like a child. Maybe then, I'll feel physically attractive.

Like, I honestly just assume all women are "too physically attractive" for me, purely because no one is going to want to date someone who looks like a child, like their "younger brother". And on that idea, alone, I disqualify myself from ever even trying to "mingle" and date.

[SumGuy]

On 1/25/2020 at 9:18 AM, Inflikted said:

I understand. It's just difficult to come up with things to go out and do when there's really nothing that's piquing my curiosity or interest, for the most part. It's not that I don't want to have a little more going on in my life, but I don't really have any ideas as to what. I don't mean to be "difficult". But when most people try new things or seek out some new activity, there's some "thing" that pulls them to those activities. I'm not trying to say that there's "absolutely nothing in the world that interests me", it's just...

I really don;' get it.  I don't do meetup for new things mostly, rather things I like to do and already do, just with others.  I live near a big city so there is literally everything under the sun to do.  Type in what you do at home alone and it may well be there.  If you literally do nothing and lack executive function to make a choice, that is more an issue for therapy.  Even then there is group therapy.

I do understand you Netflix example though.

[SumGuy]

18 minutes ago, Inflikted said:

Like, I honestly just assume all women are "too physically attractive" for me, purely because no one is going to want to date someone who looks like a child, like their "younger brother". And on that idea, alone, I disqualify myself from ever even trying to "mingle" and date.

So you are not tall and have a young pretty boy face?  Dude, there are whole worlds of women who love that look.  Tom Cruise anyone?

Learn to love yourself and accept that yes you may not be everyone's cup of tea, but to some you will be all that and a bag of chips.  

[Inflikted]

2 hours ago, SumGuy said:

So you are not tall and have a young pretty boy face?  Dude, there are whole worlds of women who love that look.  Tom Cruise anyone?

Hah, I didn't say "pretty boy". Again, I'd say I look more like "your kid brother that's tagging along because mom said you had to bring him with you".

2 hours ago, SumGuy said:

I really don;' get it.  I don't do meetup for new things mostly, rather things I like to do and already do, just with others. 

Yeah, I guess I'm just not sure the stuff I do is something I necessarily WANT to do with others.

Like, for instance, my friend and I have gotten into a popular trading card game over the last few months. And we set our own restrictions on how much money we're going to spend and what packs we're going to buy, so that neither of us is at an unfair disadvantage. And I like that, because neither of us want to put in the money to get good cards that you can play against better opponents with.

In theory, yes, I could go to game stores and try to meet people by playing this card game. But I'd have to do one of two things in order to do that. Either:

A) Play against everyone who doesn't follow such restrictions, probably lose every single game, and in turn, start losing interest in the game altogether (because it's no fun if you're just forever losing), or

B) Be the guy that makes everyone else play by my rules. Which seems kind of like a jerk thing to do.

Neither option seems particularly appealing to me. I like that me and my friend just have our own little system going, and we can just have fun with the game without one of us having a severe advantage.

Yanno? That's kind of how it is in general for my personal hobbies and stuff. I just want to figure out how I can "compromise" on some of them to find ways to meet people through, while also still enjoying the activity in the way I want to. It's tricky to find that balance.

[SumGuy]

Host a game with deck limits?   No specials etc.   I’ll admit I don’t know personally if this is viable.   I’m a generation before Magic and a generation before Pokémon 

would a friend go with you, just being in a public place could be good

also where I live there are the game cafes or pubs, actually good beer and food as they got the demographic down.  
tons of board and card games, you can bring your own

its the vibe though and people are friendly but not intrusive, a true geek, introvert safe space and far more women than a typical game store 

Edited January 27, 2020 by SumGuy

[nospam99]

FWIW, I'm a gamer. But I play whatever the current variation of D&D or Pathfinder is. MUCH less expensive than the card games which I gave up on specifically because of having to keep spending money for good cards.

Anyway, OP, you may consider that going to the game store to play an RPG is a fairly inexpensive way to socialize. However be warned: few women/gurlz and most of them are either goth or otherwise 'weird'. The less weird women are usually there playing with their husband or boyfriend.

[Inflikted]

2 hours ago, SumGuy said:

would a friend go with you, just being in a public place could be good

also where I live there are the game cafes or pubs, actually good beer and food as they got the demographic down.  

Maybe. Something to look into, I guess. Although, my friends mostly prefer just gaming at their house instead of going out somewhere to do it.

2 hours ago, nospam99 said:

However be warned: few women/gurlz and most of them are either goth or otherwise 'weird'. The less weird women are usually there playing with their husband or boyfriend.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, I was just using that as a general example to get out and socialize rather than something to meet women through.