Novel Coronavirus COVID-19

[Ruby Slippers]

3 hours ago, Ellener said:

I found there are a lot of jobs paying $10 an hour with what I consider unreasonable hours/working conditions. Workers are asked to stand for hours at a time, places like supermarkets; I can't do that and I can't imagine most people my age can without affecting their health and wellbeing. 

I've seen lots of ads for remote/phone/chat retail customer service gigs, usually paying around $15 an hour. This could be a good income generator for an older person with physical limitations.

[mark clemson]

Maskless people at BLM rallies, maskless people at Trump rallies, maskless people at biker events, maskless people at the beaches. Maskless people at bars, at college parties, at churches, and at basketball courts.

Don't get me wrong, plenty of people obey the rules and/or try to help in other ways, but I think people who feel that "the rules don't apply to me" come in all flavors.

[Ellener]

31 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Maskless people at BLM rallies, maskless people at Trump rallies, maskless people at biker events, maskless people at the beaches. Maskless people at bars, at college parties, at churches, and at basketball courts.

Don't get me wrong, plenty of people obey the rules and/or try to help in other ways, but I think people who feel that "the rules don't apply to me" come in all flavors.

Like the president?! All I can say is this the most libertarian of states and people are wearing face-covering here. 

[mark clemson]

12 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Like the president?! All I can say is this the most libertarian of states and people are wearing face-covering here. 

Glad to hear it. Many do here, but many do not as well....

[CaliforniaGirl]

6 hours ago, Veronica73 said:

In my state cases have spiked again. I actually don’t think we ever got over the “first wave”. I’m in a college town and the college kids came back and are spreading it around. I guess it wouldn’t be so bad if it was contained to the campus area. But it’s not. It is spreading around the community. And hospital admissions have gone up *drastically*. They are back to not allowing visitors (unless it is an end of life situation, a child, or someone who can’t make healthcare decisions on their own), which I think is really sad. I’ve never had to stay overnight in a hospital. I think I’d be pretty scared. The labs who are processing the Covid tests can barely keep up. Not good.

Our county (there's no way to take California as a whole, it's huge and towns/cities run all descriptions) is up and down, up and down though nothing like the spring.

Our schools will be partially opening (at their discretion? It's sort of weird so far) to certain special needs and disadvantaged students and that's only because the parents sued our governor to force his hand...after which, naturally, people have now turned around to scream for the governor's recall because "you obviously can't trust him not to change his mind." (WTF?)

The wording is horrific. The children will serve as a test population before the majority of the students return. (LIKE. HELL.) 

My students are in special ed and I got calls from their schools asking whether I would want my children to return with this early population.

No.

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl
Spelling

[Ellener]

6 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Glad to hear it. Many do here, but many do not as well....

Stores here refuse entry without face-covering. It's pretty much accepted that everyone will wear face-covering for now until we get word that there's immunity or a vaccine. 

And this is Texas- Libertarian capitol of the world!

 

 

[Philosopher]

17 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

Is what the BLM protesters do a great influence on the behavior of most people in the UK?

It's not in the US.  People were toting their bazookas into state capital buildings to express their outrage at having any restrictions put upon them at all well before the murder of George Floyd.  

The president is having giant hate rallies indoors where people are packed like sardines.  Bikers are converging on small towns by the thousands and crowding into every bar and business causing major spikes.  Megachurches having their huge  rituals or whatever they do in there.  Everything is open.

BLM protests have little to zero impact on how people choose to conduct themselves on this side of the Atlantic.

I saw the BLM protests as a contributory factor on influencing people’s behaviour in the UK. A couple of weekends before the BLM protests in the UK it emerged certain high up government official had broken the lockdown rules and then lied about it which I think was big factor on people’s behaviour in the UK. That incident got a lot of media attention and gave people the impression that people ignoring the restrictions. After that people generally became quite cynical of what the government said people should do. The BLM protests a couple of weeks later I think may have reinforced the view that many where ignoring the rules.

Since June I have come increasingly skeptical that the restrictions work. Personally I do follow the rules as I am still quite frightened of the virus (though less than I was in the Spring) and I do not want to give the virus to others. However I have come to the view the restrictions do not do much in terms of reducing the spread.

[QuietRiot]

Where I live, a healthcare worker at a local hospital is saying it's not TOO bad where she works. In fact, very few people in critical condition via Covid...as if Covid is weakening OR...people are paying attention tot he protocols and wearing masks. So if people wind up in the hospital, they are LESS sick with Covid. 

So basically, there aren't slews of people with tubes down their throats or none at all...where I am.

They are now allowing ONE registered member of the family in as a visitor and ONLY that one person. With , of course, the other protocols in place at the hosp.

Of course, I live more of in a suburban area, so it's not a densely populated area...we are an hour north of a major city. The small towns have a downtown area that you can walk through in a blink, and even close up shop early even on a Saturday night.

 

[Libby1]

35 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

I saw the BLM protests as a contributory factor on influencing people’s behaviour in the UK. A couple of weekends before the BLM protests in the UK it emerged certain high up government official had broken the lockdown rules and then lied about it which I think was big factor on people’s behaviour in the UK. That incident got a lot of media attention and gave people the impression that people ignoring the restrictions.

Remember, too, what the media coverage was like?  The reporters all breaching lockdown rules, while demanding to know why Dominic Cummings had breached lockdown rules.  While the general public were following lockdown rules, and making the associated sacrifices in good faith, we saw how quickly people in the political sphere began using them as a weapon to attack others with - often for partisan reasons.  I remember Neil Kinnock's son visited him, and they posted a "socially distanced visit" picture where the family members were situated outside and more than two metres apart.  Which to me seemed like a fair compromise, but it was stirred into an outrage by the same press that behaved like this outside Dominic Cummings' home.  It was like "they're all at it.  They're all justifying their own breach of the rules while attacking political opponents for breaking the rules."   The general public were setting the best example, while these various people and groups who regard themselves as acting for the greater good were setting a very poor example.  Sooner of later, it was inevitable that the public would tire of being preached to political figures and organisations who prioritised their own families, values, beliefs or causes above the rules, but told us we couldn't do the same (presumably because our familes, values and beliefs weren't deemed to be so important).

 

[schlumpy]

I think that although the behavior of public officials can influence a few they do not influence the many, especially when personal safety is involved. I have become very used to public officials asking me to do what they say and not what they do. It's the behavior of the privileged. It is expected as per example:

The mayor of Chicago allowing riots in the city but making sure the police keep her street protest free.

Public officials shouting anti-gun slogans while standing in the shadow of their armed security detail.

If government officials quit obeying traffic laws or walked in the middle of the street instead of on the sidewalk would everyone follow suit?

I think not.

They do not have the behavioral influence that is being ascribed to them.

[Libby1]

2 hours ago, schlumpy said:

I think that although the behavior of public officials can influence a few they do not influence the many, especially when personal safety is involved. I have become very used to public officials asking me to do what they say and not what they do. It's the behavior of the privileged. It is expected as per example:

 

I tend to agree with that.  In the case I mentioned, a public official/government advisor broke a rule about travelling outside his residential area with the rationale that he was acting in his family's interests.  Then members of the press broke social distancing rules without really giving any rationale.  Then the protests started up and while the government (in the UK) were urging people not to participate, by that point the media globally was very much in support of protests taking place.  People working in health services were participating, and were arguing that the protests were life-saving:

Dr. Rhea Boyd saw the demonstrations not just as a necessary risk during a pandemic. The California-based pediatrician considered them lifesaving.

“If people were to understand that racism, and all of the social and political and economic inequalities that racism creates, ultimately harms people’s health,” Boyd says, they would see that “protest is a profound public health intervention, because it allows us to finally address and end forms of inequality.”

https://time.com/5848212/doctors-supporting-protests/

I wouldn't be too keen to get into the rights and wrongs of that particular argument, because I don't really feel like I have good enough knowledge of the health outcomes of inequalities to comment - and it's clear that a lot of medical practitioners out there were supporting the position Dr Boyd expresses there. But that argument basically sets a precedent for accepting the risk of being infected by/passing on a virus because you think another health issue should be prioritised.  Well, then that opens up the question of whether it's better to accept the risk of infection/passing on the virus than to accept the risk of a lot of people's mental health being seriously harmed by lockdown measures.  Which I think we know is happening, because although suicide rates have yet to be assessed, psychiatric services are widely reporting big increases in the number of people seeking help for depression and suicide ideation:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/21/left-no-one-uk-mental-health-deteriorated-covid

So we had this environment where some people were saying "there's very low risk attached to protests because they're taking place outdoors" and others were saying "even if there's a risk of infection, it's worth taking that risk to address another public health issue that we believe ought to be prioritised".  I think that gives substance to the arguments a lot of anti-lockdown protesters present.  That it's over-reactive to prohibit outdoor public gatherings.  Or that the potential public health benefits of imposing lockdown should at the very least be balanced against the mental health problems caused by social isolation.  

So we've had BLM protests, and anti-lockdown protests.  Recently I've heard about more of the latter than the former, at least in the UK.  People are being arrested in various countries in respect of anti-lockdown protests, and I think this is probably because those protests tend to be associated with conspiracy theories regarding Covid.  But if people start protesting about the mental health implications of imposing long term stringent lockdown measures on people - and if those protests are supported by professionals working in mental health, then it's going to be a lot more difficult to justify arresting protesters.  I think if lockdown measures continue into that point at which we start getting information about suicide rates over the past 6 months, then we're going to see a lot more protests along the lines of "mental health matters".  But at the moment those anti-lockdown protests have been hijacked by conspiracy theorists to a point where it's not that difficult for governments to justify quashing them.

 

[schlumpy]

That's a problem Libby. These things tend to get hijacked by those that use them to fuel an agenda that is within the context of the original subject but not necessarily pointed in the same direction. 

I've followed your excellent dissection of Mr. Cummings duplicity and I agree. He should have known better. The price he pays is political and perhaps professional. It's only real use being a talking point for the opposing party.

[Ellener]

3 minutes ago, Libby1 said:

I wouldn't be too keen to get into the rights and wrongs of that particular argument, because I don't really feel like I have good enough knowledge of the health outcomes of inequalities to comment - and it's clear that a lot of medical practitioners out there were supporting the position Dr Boyd expresses there.

Yes, in the US black people tend to be poor people and we do not have universal health care here.

I remember a man at church saying his health had been compromised over many years of physical labour as it was the only work he could get until the racism abated somewhat and he became a manager of a business. He was very clever but just never got a chance earlier because he was black. 

During the Covid pandemic the three factors which influenced outcome in the US according to the studies (Commonwealth Fund ) were race, ethnicity, and income.

Where I live in Texas there is a homelessness crisis brewing. The local government are putting measures in place to cope, we are so used to crisis management here, but yet again the national government doesn't get it. 

And I don't think it's anything to do with the presidency- he wrote an executive order to try and fix the problem and the money ( drawn from FEMA ) was soon exhausted. The Democrats are blocking the way forward with unrealistic demands and over-politicising the situation. 

The last time we had a financial crisis in the US I started saving most of my income, but even so, without any income being earned it is soon drained. 

I cannot imagine what a lot of my neighbours are going through right now...about a third of Americans rent their accommodation. But even when I owned my place there was an HOA fee of $400 a month, mostly to cover storm damage insurance...and guess what, when Harvey happened I wasn't allowed to use it!

@Libby1 here in Texas there was no massive Covid infection related to the Black Lives Matter mass protest, but there was a huge surge in infections when the bars and restaurants re-opened. It does seem like being outdoors is safer.

 

 

 

 

 

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, Ellener said:

Yes, in the US black people tend to be poor people

Define poor. In 2019 about 70% of black people were working class or higher in America. Working class in America is pretty OK by world standards. 

Source: https://blackdemographics.com/households/middle-class/

[Ellener]

11 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Define poor. In 2019 about 70% of black people were working class or higher in America. Working class in America is pretty OK by world standards. 

Source: https://blackdemographics.com/households/middle-class/

Sure I can define poverty:

no access to emergency funds, private or government

no access to health care ( even during a world health crisis )

unsheltered or at immediate risk of losing home shelter.

Are you telling me because we don't live in the worst of our world it's ok to be poor? Even in one of the world's richest nations?

 

 

[mark clemson]

9 hours ago, Ellener said:

Stores here refuse entry without face-covering. It's pretty much accepted that everyone will wear face-covering

Sure. Here too. The stores (most of them) don't particularly want risking regular customers dying off and I'm QUITE SURE their legal departments have their panties in an absolute bunch over the prospect of wrongful death lawsuits. Also I think most Texans get the concept of private property (a few Karens and their male equivalents excepted). But that doesn't stop folks from doing whatever elsewhere, such as the Sturgis biker rally (as one example) and all the other stuff I've mentioned, all I've which I've either personally witnessed or seen TV coverage of.

[sothereiwas]

31 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Sure I can define poverty:

no access to emergency funds, private or government

no access to health care ( even during a world health crisis )

unsheltered or at immediate risk of losing home shelter.

Yeah, that does not describe the majority of Americans of any color. The image that's promoted of blacks in America being some poor slum dwellers is not terribly accurate. Most Americans live pretty well and black Americans are included in that. Not everything has to be about race. In fact most things that matter are not. 

[Ellener]

6 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Yeah, that does not describe the majority of Americans of any color. The image that's promoted of blacks in America being some poor slum dwellers is not terribly accurate. Most Americans live pretty well and black Americans are included in that. Not everything has to be about race. In fact most things that matter are not. 

You need to get real.

[sothereiwas]

2 minutes ago, Ellener said:

You need to get real.

Follow the link. About 70% of blacks and 80% of everyone in America are working class or higher. The great disparity seems to be in how many PoC are super duper ultra rich, which is a tiny sliver of humanity in any case but does seem to favor old money. 

[Ellener]

Nope. That's not fact. Are you racist?

[sothereiwas]

8 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Nope. That's not fact. Are you racist?

Of course not, I can accept facts when I see them. Follow the link, the data source is the US census.

Edited September 24, 2020 by sothereiwas

[Ellener]

52 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Of course not, I can accept facts when I see them. Follow the link, the data source is the US census.

well you should think again.  This is not correct. People have been living a different reality to you and I for decades. 

I am so sorry to all the black people who did not get fair treatment. 

 

[SincereOnlineGuy]

7 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

Define poor. In 2019 about 70% of black people were working class or higher in America. Working class in America is pretty OK by world standards. 

Source: https://blackdemographics.com/households/middle-class/

Good job at manipulating your data.

 

Assessing American blacks  "by world standards" is way too easy.

 

My allowance in 8th grade made me  "pretty OK by world standards".

 

 

And it proooooooooooooobably isn't correct that she said:     "blacks in America tend to be poor"

 

Though it would be wholly accurate if she'd selected:    "blacks in America are disproportionately poor"

 

 

The discrimination is vastly against the poor,  who are an unprotected class...     and thus, those who are eligible, race over beneath an umbrella that is supposed to protect them.

 

The solution  begins with getting authorities, and people everywhere to cease at once to equate POC with "poor"   at every level of our society.

 

When we go to a movie, and the initial  "fade-in"    is on some unclean street, with 4 people shooting dice by a cement wall, and a rear-view mirror hanging from a car by its wires... and a little kid riding a beat-up bike... and a mom and her children exiting a small store with bars on the windows... you can bet everything that most of the humans in that setting will be POC.

 

Policework is largely a learn-as-you-go endeavor and while the media sits back with ideal standards for equal treatment to apply in hindsight to every tiny move made by police against poor people...       the police in question are conditioned on a daily basis as they go  from poor  to  poor  to  poor  to  poor.   (every passing hour is one more databit for a cop who keeps recognizing that he goes from POC to POC to POC to downtrodden/drug-addled white guy  to POC to POC)  (and it's all because they're poor - NOT because of their skin color)

 

So in a way it barely matters what is written on some bulletin board back at the station, covered up in part by free tickets to the policemen's ball.

 

The guy who got caught shoplifting...  wasn't shoplifting because he's BLACK...   he was shoplifting because he's poor  (exceptions for Winona Ryder).

 

Once somebody even starts to make inroads with convincing some initial group of people to cease at once the association of "poor" and "POC"  in our minds  then all of the other groups can follow suit in a domino-like pattern.

 

If LeBron and Kareem and Spud Webb are hanging out on the stoop at 1:00 in the morning, the stereotypical white woman is NOT clutching her purse and crossing the street... when she knows it's LeBron and Kareem  (so clearly it isn't really the color of their skin that is her concern).

 

 

 

 

[sothereiwas]

1 hour ago, SincereOnlineGuy said:

When we go to a movie, and the initial  "fade-in"    is on some unclean street, with 4 people shooting dice by a cement wall, and a rear-view mirror hanging from a car by its wires... and a little kid riding a beat-up bike... and a mom and her children exiting a small store with bars on the windows... you can bet everything that most of the humans in that setting will be POC.

Yeah, Hollywood seems to be a little racist.

The fact is that most black people in America are doing all right, not much worse overall than we all do overall.  Like I said, 70% of PoC and 80% overall are working class or better in America. That's a difference but it's not a staggering difference, and it means that most PoC in America are doing OK if any of us are. Poor people of all colors have it tougher financially, that's definitional. It's just not mostly about color. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by sothereiwas

[Ellener]

36% of Americans live in rental properties. 

I'm really scared right now and I have money in the bank.

People with dark skin have been screwed over since day one of America, and anyone who says otherwise has lost touch with reality.