Novel Coronavirus COVID-19

[Ellener]

Well she knows you love her @Timshel

Dementia illnesses are both the worst of times, the best of times as the cliche goes. 

The people with dementia aren't able to function exactly the best, in our communication-oriented world, but where they do they sometimes function better. I have known a lot of people with dementia illnesses, they communicate differently. 

They are just in touch with what really matters. Or they switched off because nobody cares what matters to them.

I remember years ago this lady with dementia saying to me in my first employment situation in America 'what the hell are you doing with this riff-raff?' It was the issue I always run up against in the nursing homes, trying to get people appropriate nutrition in a corporate environment. She said leave, and I did, I resigned my job that day. But last year when I took a job in a corporate nursing home working for a friend, guess what? Nothing had changed in nearly 20 years. I resigned there too after they gave a patient aspiration pneumonia because nobody could be bothered to fix her non-dairy diet. When I went in there the last day she was living her family were packing up her belongings around her as she took her last breaths. I was furious...my friend the manager said well what can we do?

Er, care. Make it a safe and precious environment. Set standards.

Good Lord, sometimes I think I should just give up, then another voice comes into my heart telling me- never give up. So I don't.

 

 

 

 

[Timshel]

6 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Dementia illnesses are both the worst of times, the best of times as the cliche goes. 

Good Lord, sometimes I think I should just give up, then another voice comes into my heart telling me- never give up. So I don't.

 

 

 

 

Yes, she knows I love her.  My mom and dad had their preferences well lawyered and property bought where my mother is currently.  As an executor, I am relieved that she is living in a place that she chose and is actually quite excellent. I moved from Boston back to FL to give all for my parents, who were never on the timid/meek side of stating what they want.

I think that touch is very important and although it will be good to lay eyes on my mom and she on me; I am willing to sanitize the moisture out of my hands to at least hold hers.

I think of the people who in their last years or months who have not seen or touched the people they love.  It's a pandemic, so precautions are made but for some at such a cost.

Of course you should not give up Ellener.  You are here for a reason.  Remember, 'whatever is good, think on these things.'  In other words, keep your mind out of the gutter, it will only linger there, then what good are you.

Chin up.

[Happy Lemming]

In the news this morning, it appears that Florida has lifted ALL Covid-19 restrictions.

 

[QuietRiot]

3 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

In the news this morning, it appears that Florida has lifted ALL Covid-19 restrictions.

 

I thought it was just for restaurants and bars. Either way, Orlando's mayor isn't thrilled about this. So it sounds like local govts are not allowing it though.

Anyways, people weren't following the rules anyways, regardless.

Edited September 26, 2020 by QuietRiot

[SincereOnlineGuy]

Covid data from a random county in small-town America:

 

June  26  -      22 total cases to date

July 31  -      119 total cases

Aug 28  -      244 total cases

Sept 16  -     342  total cases

Sept  25  -    439  total cases

 

 

and that's with  the precautionary measures of the day in place.

 

 

 

[Happy Lemming]

7 hours ago, QuietRiot said:

I thought it was just for restaurants and bars. Either way, Orlando's mayor isn't thrilled about this. So it sounds like local govts are not allowing it though.

It was just a quick news story on my morning news.  Perhaps someone who lives in Florida can chime in and clarify.

[Libby1]

On 9/25/2020 at 8:50 AM, Haydn said:

I`ll give my take. In London things got back to some kind of normal, the kids are at school and it seems to be working well. They have their classroom bubbles etc. And the school has got rid of it`s more  stupid rules during all this. I have been to the pub in my bubble. There were a few protests, (David Icke) Made an appearance. BLM protests as well. But i`ll leave that for the other threads. I have this feeling that if a strict lockdown is imposed it won`t go down well. I can see quite a few problems. People are fed up. Going broke if they are not covered by the government schemes. The rules are confusing and the Police are sometimes unsure as how to proceed.

 

Things were starting to feel more normal, but I think that's about to change abruptly.  Anti-lockdown protesters seem to regard it as a matter of honour that they don't wear masks and refuse to employ any social distancing measures.  I've seen footage of them crammed together; with temperatures dropping and shorter days lowering people's immune systems I think we're going to see a significantly worse version of what we had in April (death wise) in a couple of months time.  My concern is that the people who are conspiracy theorising about Covid may well not even be taking the most basic preventative measures.  

I was reading a Guardian article about neighbour disputes increasing in severity.  During the summer, once the nonsense of prohibiting people from going outside more than once a day (unless it was for shopping, medical visits etc) had ended, I think people were coping relatively well.  With hospitality businesses being able to earn a living again, people starting to socialise with friends etc.  Now, it looks as though we're going to get back to that situation where people are holed up indoors, family members and neighbours driving eachother mad...and unfortunately the sort of Blitz "caring about others in your community" spirit that was around back in April seems to have diminished massively.  I suppose it's easier for people to feel positive and energetic in springtime than it is at this time of year...plus the economic impact of lockdown is really starting to bite.

 

[schlumpy]

1 hour ago, Libby1 said:

I suppose it's easier for people to feel positive and energetic in springtime than it is at this time of year...plus the economic impact of lockdown is really starting to bite.

 

Hi Libby,

I read two days ago that the stores in London are either rationing food or are thinking about it.

Are you experiencing any of that? 

We never broke our quasi-quarantine so we shouldn't have much trouble settling in for a few a more months.

I do regret watching this summer slip away.

Who knows how many more I will have.

[clia]

2 hours ago, Libby1 said:

I was reading a Guardian article about neighbour disputes increasing in severity.  During the summer, once the nonsense of prohibiting people from going outside more than once a day (unless it was for shopping, medical visits etc) had ended, I think people were coping relatively well.  With hospitality businesses being able to earn a living again, people starting to socialise with friends etc.  Now, it looks as though we're going to get back to that situation where people are holed up indoors, family members and neighbours driving eachother mad...and unfortunately the sort of Blitz "caring about others in your community" spirit that was around back in April seems to have diminished massively.  I suppose it's easier for people to feel positive and energetic in springtime than it is at this time of year...plus the economic impact of lockdown is really starting to bite.

You can't just keep ordering healthy people to stay at home for months on end.  Something is going to give, at minimum from a mental standpoint, and as people wonder how long they are going to be expected to put their lives on hold.  People were willing to abide by the rules and do their part back in March/April because it was new and we were told it would be temporary (where I am, it was "flatten the curve" so the hospitals don't get overwhelmed).  Yet despite what everyone did back then, despite the mask mandates of the summer, cases are still rising again.  Big surprise -- virus is going to do what viruses do.  At this point, people know the risks.  IMO, people should be allowed to make their own decisions, provided hospitals aren't overwhelmed.    

[elaine567]

56 minutes ago, schlumpy said:

I read two days ago that the stores in London are either rationing food or are thinking about it.

With the imminence of probably further lockdowns in the UK, some people were panicking and stocking up on mainly toilet rolls and disinfectants.
The suoermarkets decided in some places to ration goods  to three per person, rather than  encourage the panic buying that happened in March/April.
There is plenty of stock if everyone is sensible and only buys the stock they will actually use.

[Philosopher]

5 hours ago, Libby1 said:

Things were starting to feel more normal, but I think that's about to change abruptly.  Anti-lockdown protesters seem to regard it as a matter of honour that they don't wear masks and refuse to employ any social distancing measures.  I've seen footage of them crammed together; with temperatures dropping and shorter days lowering people's immune systems I think we're going to see a significantly worse version of what we had in April (death wise) in a couple of months time.  My concern is that the people who are conspiracy theorising about Covid may well not even be taking the most basic preventative measures.  

Before the anti-lockdown protests started, the police where telling the protestors to observe social distancing. I might be a bit naive, but somehow I don’t think telling protestors to observe the exact measures they are protesting against is going to work!

[Libby1]

4 hours ago, schlumpy said:

Hi Libby,

I read two days ago that the stores in London are either rationing food or are thinking about it.

Are you experiencing any of that? 

 

Not so far, but that'll probably change soon.  All that said, the ones who went crazy with the panic buying last time around are probably saddled with enough non perishables to last them for years.

 

1 hour ago, Philosopher said:

Before the anti-lockdown protests started, the police where telling the protestors to observe social distancing. I might be a bit naive, but somehow I don’t think telling protestors to observe the exact measures they are protesting against is going to work!

I would have thought there are a fairly healthy percentage of people who are opposed to total lockdown but who nonetheless recognise that it makes sense to social distance/wear masks where possible.  But here we are in an era where it seems like increasing numbers of people feel that they have to take an extreme stance on every issue.

[Libby1]

4 hours ago, clia said:

You can't just keep ordering healthy people to stay at home for months on end.  Something is going to give, at minimum from a mental standpoint, and as people wonder how long they are going to be expected to put their lives on hold.  People were willing to abide by the rules and do their part back in March/April because it was new and we were told it would be temporary (where I am, it was "flatten the curve" so the hospitals don't get overwhelmed).  Yet despite what everyone did back then, despite the mask mandates of the summer, cases are still rising again.  Big surprise -- virus is going to do what viruses do.  At this point, people know the risks.  IMO, people should be allowed to make their own decisions, provided hospitals aren't overwhelmed.    

I was just reading that there will soon be wide availability of tests that have a very fast (15 to 30 minutes) turnaround rate.  Hopefully that could reduce the need for the kind of total lockdown a lot of people seem to be pushing for.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

9 hours ago, clia said:

You can't just keep ordering healthy people to stay at home for months on end.  Something is going to give, at minimum from a mental standpoint, and as people wonder how long they are going to be expected to put their lives on hold.  People were willing to abide by the rules and do their part back in March/April because it was new and we were told it would be temporary (where I am, it was "flatten the curve" so the hospitals don't get overwhelmed).  Yet despite what everyone did back then, despite the mask mandates of the summer, cases are still rising again.  Big surprise -- virus is going to do what viruses do.  At this point, people know the risks.  IMO, people should be allowed to make their own decisions, provided hospitals aren't overwhelmed.    

 

Uh,  look around the world.

 

Of course, and obviously   you can keep ordering healthy people to stay home for months on end.

 

All you need to do is compare Covid stats from countries lacking "freedom"  with those in which citizens are "free", to see the clear difference.

[basil67]

1 hour ago, SincereOnlineGuy said:

All you need to do is compare Covid stats from countries lacking "freedom"  with those in which citizens are "free", to see the clear difference.

Indeed it does work.  My country looks at the death toll in other countries with horror.  

Lockdowns, if done well (combined with closed borders) cease when numbers get under control.   In my state, we've had virtually no new infections recently and are able to live life almost as normal because of the hard yards we did.   Melbourne had a glitch and had to get locked down again for about 6 weeks, but things are starting to look really good there now and they are starting to open back up.

Also, those countries who value "freedom" have a very different approach to those countries who value "mateship".   Freedom is about being able to do whatever you want even if it hurts others.  Where as mateship is about societal expectation of pulling together as a team and looking after everyone.    It's a lot easier to persuade those who value mateship to make choices which protect the whole. 

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by basil67

[NuevoYorko]

On 9/28/2020 at 5:06 AM, clia said:

You can't just keep ordering healthy people to stay at home for months on end.  Something is going to give, at minimum from a mental standpoint, and as people wonder how long they are going to be expected to put their lives on hold.  People were willing to abide by the rules and do their part back in March/April because it was new and we were told it would be temporary (where I am, it was "flatten the curve" so the hospitals don't get overwhelmed).  

Healthy people all over the world are observant of the protocols known to inhibit the spread of this virus.  They're not outraged because they are "being told" something; they are doing the best possible practice.  Even if they are unhappy and complain about it.  

The concept of having any degree of social conscience seems to be considered an atrocity in much of this country.  It's a serious weakness.  

[NuevoYorko]

21 hours ago, basil67 said:

 Freedom is about being able to do whatever you want even if it hurts others.  Where as mateship is about societal expectation of pulling together as a team and looking after everyone.    It's a lot easier to persuade those who value mateship to make choices which protect the whole. 

 

I believe that "freedom" can encompass what you call "mateship."  Sadly, caring enough about the good of the whole to stay home for several months is considered a horrible infringement to approximately 40% of the American population.  

[lana-banana]

We were told the staying at home would be temporary because we needed to give our government three months to implement contact tracing and widespread testing. Instead our federal government did absolutely nothing and ended the three-month period by saying "hey, states, you're on your own; it's not our job to keep people alive".  States were forced to compose their own pacts, essentially mini-regional governments, just to share supplies and critical care equipment. Meanwhile our government wasted hundreds of millions on federal contractors that couldn't even deliver testing swabs. If we had been in a functioning country this would have been over by now. 

Vietnam, a country of about 100 million people---so a little less than a third of our population---has had 35 deaths of coronavirus. 35. Thirty-five. South Korea, population 51 million, has had 407 deaths. (For reference, Iowa, population 3.1 million, has had 1324.) Other countries have and continue to rise to the challenge. The US has suffered uniquely because our government didn't just fail, they gave up and abandoned us. 

[clia]

I just don't understand locking down everyone, when it is readily apparent by now who is most at risk.  It seems to me that we should do everything we can to protect the people at risk, and let everyone else get on with their lives if they so choose -- again, assuming hospitals can handle it.  (Where I am at, hospitals have very few COVID-19 patients right now.  Some don't have any at all and haven't had any for weeks.)  And sure, if you want some reasonable capacity limits, masks, social distancing, hand washing, fine.  I have no issue with improvements to hygiene or masks if you are in a crowd or indoors.  Heck, I love not having a table or person crammed right next to me at a restaurant.    

It's been awhile since I ran the numbers in my county, so I did it this morning out of curiosity.

The overall CFR (case fatality rate) for my county is 6.8%.  That is number of confirmed cases/deaths.  We were hit very hard back in March/April and it was impossible to get a test unless you were really ill through most of March and April (not to mention the number of mild/asymptomatic people who never got tested), so the actual number of cases is likely much, much higher, which would bring this percentage down.  But I'm going to just work with the number of confirmed cases.  Below you can see how this CFR differs by age, which I think is important.

Death distribution by age (number of confirmed cases by age / total number of confirmed cases):

Under 20 = 0 deaths

20-29 = 2 deaths

30-39 = 10 deaths

Over age 40 = 98.9% of deaths

Over age 50 = 96.5% of deaths

Over age 60 = 91.8% of deaths

Over age 70 = 77.5% of deaths

Over age 80 = 52.5% of deaths

Case fatality rate by age (number of confirmed cases by age / total number of cases by age):

Under 20 = 0%

20-29 = 0.04%

30-39 = 0.47%

40-49 = 1.2%

50-59 = 2.0%

60-69 = 7.5%

70-79 = 18.2%

80-89 = 33.8%

90-99 = 45.2%

100+ = 64%

So, the older you are, the more deadly it will be.  We should make sure those people are able to be safe (if they want to be) -- which is something we did not do at all in my state in March/April, as you can see from the numbers.  This is true for a number of the states that got hit in March/April and a huge part of why the number of deaths are so high in the USA.  We did not protect our older population -- we needlessly exposed them to COVID-19.  I think we know better now, but the reality still is that if you are older and/or in poor health, you are always at more of a risk when you catch a virus -- this isn't something novel to COVID-19.    

But for younger people, it is less deadly than the flu.    

(And yes, I understand that there are some people who have ongoing health issues after having COVID-19, but that is true of any respiratory illness.)  

At this point, we have a much better understanding of how to treat it, we are running hundreds of thousands of tests each day to try to find it (at what I understand are levels of sensitivity that are detecting it when it isn't even contagious anymore), and PPE is not an issue in most places to my knowledge.  It just doesn't make sense to me to treat it like this is March and we had no idea what this was, how to treat it, how deadly it was, etc.    

Edited September 30, 2020 by clia

[d0nnivain]

It's not about how deadly it is.  It's about the long term effects -- the people who are chronic, the people who now have cardiac problems, who are at higher risk for stroke  As we head into flu season, the flu itself becomes an underlying pathology that can worsen the effects.  

I don't think that a continued lock down is the solution but if we are going to re-open there at least has to be mandatory masks & social distancing.  

[Piddy]

14 minutes ago, clia said:

I just don't understand locking down everyone, when it is readily apparent by now who is most at risk.  It seems to me that we should do everything we can to protect the people at risk, and let everyone else get on with their lives if they so choose -- again, assuming hospitals can handle it.  (Where I am at, hospitals have very few COVID-19 patients right now.  Some don't have any at all and haven't had any for weeks.)  And sure, if you want some reasonable capacity limits, masks, social distancing, hand washing, fine.  I have no issue with improvements to hygiene or masks if you are in a crowd or indoors.  Heck, I love not having a table or person crammed right next to me at a restaurant.    

It's been awhile since I ran the numbers in my county, so I did it this morning out of curiosity.

The overall CFR (case fatality rate) for my county is 6.8%.  That is number of confirmed cases/deaths.  We were hit very hard back in March/April and it was impossible to get a test unless you were really ill through most of March and April (not to mention the number of mild/asymptomatic people who never got tested), so the actual number of cases is likely much, much higher, which would bring this percentage down.  But I'm going to just work with the number of confirmed cases.  Below you can see how this CFR differs by age, which I think is important.

Death distribution by age (number of confirmed cases by age / total number of confirmed cases):

Under 20 = 0 deaths

20-29 = 2 deaths

30-39 = 10 deaths

Over age 40 = 98.9% of deaths

Over age 50 = 96.5% of deaths

Over age 60 = 91.8% of deaths

Over age 70 = 77.5% of deaths

Over age 80 = 52.5% of deaths

Case fatality rate by age (number of confirmed cases by age / total number of cases by age):

Under 20 = 0%

20-29 = 0.04%

30-39 = 0.47%

40-49 = 1.2%

50-59 = 2.0%

60-69 = 7.5%

70-79 = 18.2%

80-89 = 33.8%

90-99 = 45.2%

100+ = 64%

So, the older you are, the more deadly it will be.  We should make sure those people are able to be safe (if they want to be) -- which is something we did not do at all in my state in March/April, as you can see from the numbers.  This is true for a number of the states that got hit in March/April and a huge part of why the number of deaths are so high in the USA.  We did not protect our older population -- we needlessly exposed them to COVID-19.  I think we know better now, but the reality still is that if you are older and/or in poor health, you are always at more of a risk when you catch a virus -- this isn't something novel to COVID-19.    

But for younger people, it is less deadly than the flu.    

(And yes, I understand that there are some people who have ongoing health issues after having COVID-19, but that is true of any respiratory illness.)  

At this point, we have a much better understanding of how to treat it, we are running hundreds of thousands of tests each day to try to find it (at what I understand are levels of sensitivity that are detecting it when it isn't even contagious anymore), and PPE is not an issue in most places to my knowledge.  It just doesn't make sense to me to treat it like this is March and we had no idea what this was, how to treat it, how deadly it was, etc.    

If this is how you feel then move to Florida.  

https://news.yahoo.com/reckless-desantis-moves-florida-phase-174758669.html?

Reckless DeSantis moves Florida to Phase 3 crowds. He’s a threat to public safety.

"Floridians should never forget this.

Late Friday afternoon, just in time for happy hour, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis put his finger to the political winds — and ordered bars, restaurants, and nightclubs to open at full capacity.

His decision had the predictable outcome of packing crowds indoors and out, and if you watched video footage or drove around Fort Lauderdale and Miami Beach, you could see throngs congregating and not wearing masks.

The gaiety can be deadly, but what the hell!"

Edited September 30, 2020 by Piddy

[BaileyB]

We had a lockdown in the spring and people complied. It did what it was supposed to do, it brought our numbers down to a very reasonable level. As a result, we enjoyed a relatively normal summer. It was lovely. Now, with kids going back to school and people coming inside as the weather cools, the numbers are rising - predictably. And we are prepared to do our part by staying home to slow the spread. It doesn’t feel like a great sacrifice, it feels like a responsibility. About the only thing I will miss is gathering with my family, we will have to limit our risk by meeting outdoors when possible and making other changes. 

Like Lana, I too am frustrated with the lack of preparation by government. Testing and contact tracing needs to be expanded and they seem totally unprepared for the increased demand for testing this week. It seems difficult to believe that they didn’t see this second wave coming...

Edited September 30, 2020 by BaileyB

[clia]

People were very compliant in my area back in March/April.  It's definitely been decreasing as the months have worn on -- I see more and more people with their masks below their nose or chins, much less care for social distancing at places like the grocery store, and restaurants have been packed since Labor Day, even inside, etc.  I wonder if part of the compliance problem is simply that people are too far removed from it.  200,000 deaths is a high number, but not when you consider it's only 0.06% of our total population.  There are likely a lot of people out there who don't know anyone who died of COVID-19, or was seriously ill, or even had it.  I personally don't know anyone who died of it or was seriously ill, and I don't personally know anyone who has had it since March.  So, people look around them, look at what they know in their own lives, and possibly wonder what is going on and why they have to wear a mask or socially distance anymore.    

I'm a reasonable person and I respond to numbers and logic.  Part of the problem I've had is that my Governor has not been transparent with her decision-making.  There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to what's been allowed to open and when, we've had 200+ Executive Orders that are constantly changing, and she's been very vague about the plan/goal since it's no longer making sure the hospitals aren't overstressed.  She shakes her finger at us, tells us we have to be nimble, and threatens to roll us back if case numbers get too high.  I don't respond well to that, and find it very frustrating.  She just seems to want to be as vague as possible so no one can hold her to anything while she unilaterally decides who is allowed to run their business or do their job.  (Although I recognize my state isn't alone in this -- I read yesterday that Disney has to lay off 28,000 workers because Governor Newsome won't tell them when they can open in CA.)   

@Piddy -- Florida is way too hot for me and I would miss winter, but I might consider it if my Governor locks us down again up here.  

Edited September 30, 2020 by clia

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, clia said:

 I read yesterday that Disney has to lay off 28,000 workers because Governor Newsome won't tell them when they can open in CA.

@Piddy 

Respectfully, I think that’s because he doesn’t know. Nobody knows what will happen this fall and winter as people come indoors and flu season arrives. We all know inherently that the numbers will rise, but whether it’s safe for children to be in school, or when Disney will open again... Nobody really knows. 
 

[Piddy]

48 minutes ago, clia said:

 

 @Piddy -- Florida is way too hot for me and I would miss winter, but I might consider it if my Governor locks us down again up here.  

We're a comfortable 69 degrees right now.  😎   It was 65 when I got up this morning.  Dry with low humidity.  Turned our AC off this morning.  Opened the windows.  We'd all been better off had we had a coordinated national response.  But that never happened.  Now each state is left trying to figure it out on their own.

The medical experts said that if everyone would wear a mask that the virus would diminish in 3 months.  But we've had terrible leadership at the top levels and mask wearing became a culture war issue instead of a public health issue.  Only one person to blame imo.  Sounds like your governor is a hell of a lot smarter that the one we have.