'It's easy for men.

[BettyDraper]

"It's easy for men to say that they want children. Compared to women, men barely go through anything with respect to being parents. Men do not endure pregnancy, childbirth, or breastfeeding. Men do not do the amount of childcare that women do. The societal burden of raising a well adjusted child does not fall to fathers.  Parenting just isn't the same for men so they can't accurately speak on motherhood.":

I said this in another thread. I was speaking of the difference in workload compared to mothers. 

Based on my observations and research, mothers do most of the childcare and housework even when they are not SAHMs.

Do you believe that men typically do just as much as women when children arrive? 

Is it "man hating" to believe that women bear the brunt of the responsibilities of child rearing and housework? 

Why or why not? 

 

[central]

If both are working, then it seems that most of the work unfairly falls on the woman most of the time. If the woman stays home to raise the child, then the husband is the provider, yet often gets little credit for keeping everyone housed and fed even if he participates (obviously to a lesser degree) in child and home care.

It should be a negotiated choice  as to who does what, when - otherwise, resentment is inevitable because there is no agreement set or honored and no one feels respected.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

If you really believe this, why are you considering becoming a parent?

Mr. Lucky 

[LivingWaterPlease]

When I had my babies I did 90% of the child care involved. However, I was a SAHM so it seemed fair to me. These days with my grown children the husbands (though all families have educated but SAHMs) do much more of the child care. After they come home from work they pitch in. In talking with the mom in one of these families about it she told me that from what she's seen it's a different generation of men who have been reared in a different era, one of more husband participation.

Frankly, I didn't resent my ex H not helping out more. He was providing well for us and it gave me the privilege of being with my babies/children rather than going off to work and having someone else rear them. I had a choice and I preferred to be near my babies/children during the day.  I'm sure he'd have let me work out of the home had I wanted to. I just wanted to have the experience of being the one to teach my child all the little things an adult teaches them, watch them take their first steps, hear their first words, etc. 

[BettyDraper]

1 hour ago, Mr. Lucky said:

If you really believe this, why are you considering becoming a parent?

Mr. Lucky 

If I still wanted to be a mother, I would be a SAHM so it would only be fair for me to do most of the housework and childcare. 

I mentioned in the other thread that I was no longer considering motherhood though. 

[BettyDraper]

1 hour ago, LivingWaterPlease said:

When I had my babies I did 90% of the child care involved. However, I was a SAHM so it seemed fair to me. These days with my grown children the husbands (though all families have educated but SAHMs) do much more of the child care. After they come home from work they pitch in. In talking with the mom in one of these families about it she told me that from what she's seen it's a different generation of men who have been reared in a different era, one of more husband participation.

Frankly, I didn't resent my ex H not helping out more. He was providing well for us and it gave me the privilege of being with my babies/children rather than going off to work and having someone else rear them. I had a choice and I preferred to be near my babies/children during the day.  I'm sure he'd have let me work out of the home had I wanted to. I just wanted to have the experience of being the one to teach my child all the little things an adult teaches them, watch them take their first steps, hear their first words, etc. 

Whomever is not working outside the home needs to work within it. I agree that is  completely fair. 

Today’s fathers do more than precious generations but still not as much as women. This should not be if the woman is also working full time outside the home. 

I strongly suspect that men who get angry when the inequities are pointed out feel guilty for not contributing to housework and childcare. Another possibility is they believe that raising kids isn’t as important as earning an income. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by BettyDraper

[BettyDraper]

1 hour ago, central said:

If both are working, then it seems that most of the work unfairly falls on the woman most of the time. If the woman stays home to raise the child, then the husband is the provider, yet often gets little credit for keeping everyone housed and fed even if he participates (obviously to a lesser degree) in child and home care.

It should be a negotiated choice  as to who does what, when - otherwise, resentment is inevitable because there is no agreement set or honored and no one feels respected.

 

Appreciation is certainly essential in a marriage. 
One scenario which often plays out on LS is a husband complaining about not having sex with his wife. The husband is typically asked if he helps around the house or pitches in with his kids. I’m only mentioning this because resentment can kill sex drives. 

[carhill]

IDK, I set up my business at home long before getting married in order to be a SAHD. Can't take credit for the idea though, it came from a male cousin who took his kids with him on jobs managing the crews of his landscaping business that really took off during the early boom of Silicon Valley in the '70's. His wife worked for .gov and he didn't believe in child care. The reality that I worked in a dangerous occupation did weigh on my mind though. I figured good way to teach kids safety from an early age.

[LivingWaterPlease]

40 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

Whomever is not working outside the home needs to work within it. I agree that is  completely fair. 

Today’s fathers do more than precious generations but still not as much as women. This should not be if the woman is also working full time outside the home. 

I strongly suspect that men who get angry when the inequities are pointed out feel guilty for not contributing to housework and childcare. Another possibility is they believe that raising kids isn’t as important as earning an income. 

I'm not sure that's always the case. I know plenty of young fathers who do as much as the wives. Some of them even with SAHW. The ones I know where the wives work split the chores. Those are the ones I know, though. 

There are women who slough off as mothers/wives and there are men who slough off as fathers/husbands. By the same token there are men who are doing more than their share and women who are. I really don't believe you can generalize, just from what I've seen anyway. It really depends on the person and/or on the couple from what I've seen.

Also, my dad was a professional and mom a SAHM but Dad worked around the house, did some of the cooking and cleaning, also. After he retired he was in the kitchen as much as mom and both did chores around the house.

Edited February 5, 2020 by LivingWaterPlease
spelling

[BettyDraper]

When I noticed that wives in my circle and my extended family did much more and complained about husbands barely helping, I did some research in order to see if there was any scientific basis to my personal experiences because anecdotal evidence is not data. It doesn't really matter what we've been exposed to unless there is hard evidence to back it up. The sources below were not my sources but they support my "generalizations." 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6086200/

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/05/breadwinning-wives-gender-inequality/589237/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/upshot/men-do-more-at-home-but-not-as-much-as-they-think-they-do.html

https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/01/gender-and-housework-even-men-who-don-t-work-do-less-than-women.html

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319687.php#1

https://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiegermano/2019/03/27/women-are-working-more-than-ever-but-they-still-take-on-most-household-responsibilities/#72a8c95152e9

https://time.com/5589770/parenting-working-women-domestic-balance/

The media links include research interpreted by reputable experts. 

Few things are always true and that's why I used the word "typically."

I certainly don't believe that household duties and childcare should be split 50/50 if one spouse is home. Let's be clear about that. 

It's great that your dad helped your mother despite the fact that she was a SAHM. 

If someone vehemently disagrees with me without being able to provide more than anecdotal evidence, then he or she will not be taken seriously because they don't have any real proof and they're just reacting in an irrational manner. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote removed

[BettyDraper]

1 hour ago, carhill said:

IDK, I set up my business at home long before getting married in order to be a SAHD. Can't take credit for the idea though, it came from a male cousin who took his kids with him on jobs managing the crews of his landscaping business that really took off during the early boom of Silicon Valley in the '70's. His wife worked for .gov and he didn't believe in child care. The reality that I worked in a dangerous occupation did weigh on my mind though. I figured good way to teach kids safety from an early age.

SAHDs are still rare. The parent who stays at home is usually the mother. 

Men do work in more dangerous occupations than women.

I just don't know if that means that men who work in said occupations should leave most of the household responsibilities to wives work also work full time.

What do you think? 

[LivingWaterPlease]

 I didn't read the links but will take your word for it! I believe my experience with parenting is related to the culture I came from and also that many I associate with are of the same culture in that we believe in doing things as a family as much as possible. This is explained a little in the below paragraph.

 

On 2/5/2020 at 1:12 AM, BettyDraper said:

When I noticed that wives in my circle and my extended family did much more and complained about husbands barely helping, I did some research in order to see if there was any scientific basis to my personal experiences because anecdotal evidence is not data. It doesn't really matter what we've been exposed to unless there is hard evidence to back it up. The sources below were not my sources but they support my "generalizations." 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6086200/

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/05/breadwinning-wives-gender-inequality/589237/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/upshot/men-do-more-at-home-but-not-as-much-as-they-think-they-do.html

https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/01/gender-and-housework-even-men-who-don-t-work-do-less-than-women.html

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319687.php#1

https://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiegermano/2019/03/27/women-are-working-more-than-ever-but-they-still-take-on-most-household-responsibilities/#72a8c95152e9

https://time.com/5589770/parenting-working-women-domestic-balance/

The media links include research interpreted by reputable experts. 

Few things are always true and that's why I used the word "typically."

I certainly don't believe that household duties and childcare should be split 50/50 if one spouse is home. Let's be clear about that. 

It's great that your dad helped your mother despite the fact that she was a SAHM. 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[BettyDraper]

I do think that children generally benefit from having their mother with them in their early years. This is only if the mother is suited for being a SAHM. 

Yes, anecdotal and subjective evidence is certainly dubious at best. 

[basil67]

6 hours ago, BettyDraper said:

"Is it "man hating" to believe that women bear the brunt of the responsibilities of child rearing and housework? 

This question is extremely loaded, and frankly, doesn't make sense.

First of all, would have worded it "Is it "man hating" to believe that many women bear the brunt of the responsibilities of child rearing and housework? " because as soon as ones uses absolutes when we are talking about human behaviour, they automatically lose the argument.  

Second, it's only man hating if we hate men for it.  Now I do believe that a lot of women bear the brunt of child rearing and housework,  but I don't hate men for it.  So it's not 'man hating'.  I don't hate men at all.     Frankly, I have bigger concerns when mum and dad both work long hours and the child is parented by a nanny.

[Blind-Sided]

OK... let's take your word for it... and it's not "Man Hating."   If that's the case... then you have your head WAY up your butt.  AND, this is the kind of off center truths that cause a lot of marriages to fail.  AND... this is more or less the reason I'm divorced now.   I got blamed for things concerning the kids, and me not being a good father, including not changing enough diapers 12 years ago when my oldest was a baby. But the reality is... I was the one who built the kids rooms... built their furniture for those rooms... assembled toys... took them out in the snow to sled ride (because the ex didn't like the cold)... took them in the pool to swim (because the ex claims she couldn't swim)...  took them to scouts... took them shopping... Got up early on weekends to do things with them because the ex wanted to sleep in...  AND SO ON !!!!!!  Not to mention... in the middle of the night... the ex was out of bed as soon as a noise was made. (Because of the maternal instinct)  If I was expected to change more diapers... then all she had to do is say, "Its your turn."  On the point of being a "Bad father"... I was the punisher in the house because the ex "Just couldn't do it."  But I got blamed for it later.

Right now... I'm a 50% father to my 8yo... and a 80% father to my 13yo because she sees that her mother has gone off the deep end, and doesn't want anything to do with her delusions. She would be with me full time (and I would be perfectly fine with that) if it was her choice. (and the ex originally told her it was her choice)  But her mother didn't like the choice she made... and has already taken us to court to force her daughter to spend any time with her.

So there's the actual truth.

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[OpenBook]

10 hours ago, BettyDraper said:

"It's easy for men to say that they want children. Compared to women, men barely go through anything with respect to being parents. Men do not endure pregnancy, childbirth, or breastfeeding. Men do not do the amount of childcare that women do. The societal burden of raising a well adjusted child does not fall to fathers.  Parenting just isn't the same for men so they can't accurately speak on motherhood.":

I said this in another thread. I was speaking of the difference in workload compared to mothers. 

Based on my observations and research, mothers do most of the childcare and housework even when they are not SAHMs.

Do you believe that men typically do just as much as women when children arrive? 

Is it "man hating" to believe that women bear the brunt of the responsibilities of child rearing and housework? 

Why or why not? 

 

No, it's not "man hating" to believe that women bear the brunt of the responsibilities of child rearing and housework. Although that's been gradually changing. Today's parents (in my observation) are nothing like the parents of the 60's when I was growing up in that "Betty Draper" generation. Today I see fathers at work having no qualms whatsoever (and nobody blinks an eye) in taking time off to take care of a sick kid or chauffeur them to sporting events. And I enthusiastically support the movement to give family leave to new Dads equally as new Moms. I strongly believe Dads are just as important as Moms when it comes to raising a kid.

But your first paragraph (bolded above) WAS man hating, or at least implied it. It's like you're saying Moms are looking down their noses at men when it comes to children, no appreciation of what they bring to the table. If Moms want more help around the house, this attitude is going to get them NOWHERE.

[BettyDraper]

3 hours ago, OpenBook said:

No, it's not "man hating" to believe that women bear the brunt of the responsibilities of child rearing and housework. Although that's been gradually changing. Today's parents (in my observation) are nothing like the parents of the 60's when I was growing up in that "Betty Draper" generation. Today I see fathers at work having no qualms whatsoever (and nobody blinks an eye) in taking time off to take care of a sick kid or chauffeur them to sporting events. And I enthusiastically support the movement to give family leave to new Dads equally as new Moms. I strongly believe Dads are just as important as Moms when it comes to raising a kid.

But your first paragraph (bolded above) WAS man hating, or at least implied it. It's like you're saying Moms are looking down their noses at men when it comes to children, no appreciation of what they bring to the table. If Moms want more help around the house, this attitude is going to get them NOWHERE.

I have provided several sources to prove that men still do less than women. This isn’t just an opinion or an anecdotal observation. 
 

As for my first paragraph, it’s true that the biological and societal tasks of parenting still fall to mothers. 

[stillafool]

If this is happening maybe it's because women are normally the ones who want kids, badly.

[BettyDraper]

5 hours ago, Blind-Sided said:

OK... let's take your word for it... and it's not "Man Hating."   If that's the case... then you have your head WAY up your butt.  AND, this is the kind of off center truths that cause a lot of marriages to fail.  AND... this is more or less the reason I'm divorced now.   I got blamed for things concerning the kids, and me not being a good father, including not changing enough diapers 12 years ago when my oldest was a baby. But the reality is... I was the one who built the kids rooms... built their furniture for those rooms... assembled toys... took them out in the snow to sled ride (because the ex didn't like the cold)... took them in the pool to swim (because the ex claims she couldn't swim)...  took them to scouts... took them shopping... Got up early on weekends to do things with them because the ex wanted to sleep in...  AND SO ON !!!!!!  Not to mention... in the middle of the night... the ex was out of bed as soon as a noise was made. (Because of the maternal instinct)  If I was expected to change more diapers... then all she had to do is say, "Its your turn."  On the point of being a "Bad father"... I was the punisher in the house because the ex "Just couldn't do it."  But I got blamed for it later.

Right now... I'm a 50% father to my 8yo... and a 80% father to my 13yo because she sees that her mother has gone off the deep end, and doesn't want anything to do with her delusions. She would be with me full time (and I would be perfectly fine with that) if it was her choice. (and the ex originally told her it was her choice)  But her mother didn't like the choice she made... and has already taken us to court to force her daughter to spend any time with her.

So there's the actual truth.

NO... I can't breast feed... but fathers do a hell of a lot that a MAN HATING women like you don't give us credit it for. 

Your experience will never be able to disprove all of the easily accessible resources which clearly state otherwise. I don’t know why so many aggrieved fathers can’t understand basic logic when this topic comes up. 
 

Why do so many men need to be applauded for simply being a parent? It’s as if they think that taking care of their children is such a great achievement when it’s obvious that their wives typically do far more. You built furniture, played with your kids, and took your kids to their activities-big deal. Parenting is far more than those tasks and the fact that your wife blamed you for not doing enough proves my statement. She shouldn’t have had to tell you to do more. 
 

Edited February 5, 2020 by BettyDraper

[carhill]

Women have a lot of power. They chose who they procreate with and who they legally couple with and, though men have made some inroads in my lifetime, the legal system has men by the balls when it comes to who is presumed to be the desirable child rearer. Judges, male ones, aren't stupid, they're married to women 👍

So, if desiring men to take a more active role in parenting, if that is making it 'harder' on men, easy, choose men who believe in such philosophies. It's not a scary proposition.

Edited February 5, 2020 by carhill

[BettyDraper]

6 minutes ago, stillafool said:

If this is happening maybe it's because women are normally the ones who want kids, badly.

This could be the case. I do think men want children but perhaps their motivations are different than those of women. 

[preraph]

I've only known one couple where the man did as much or more than a woman with the kids. She was in med school and then in turning and now a doctor. He was a waiter who quit work and stayed home to do all of that and he was really good at it and also took care of the yard and animals. Their house look like a primary color bomb went off but that's how kid houses look.

 

Quite a few women I've talked to can't even trust the old man to leave a toddler home with him long enough to go to the grocery store because they come home and the guy is on the computer not paying the least bit of attention to what the kid is doing. so that becomes a problem especially when they get sick of it and decide to divorce and feel like they can't even think about having joint custody since he's better no good at even two hour stints of childcare. And that's how the mothers sabotage themselves. And it's why I always recommend they force them to take joint custody and a finally force them to grow up and be a responsible father. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by preraph

[BettyDraper]

I have seen this dynamic play out many times. That’s what prompted me to do the research. 
 

Edited February 7, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote removed

[preraph]

On a positive note, I will say that in the last 20 years, there are more men who are more willing to pick the kids up from school or take them than there ever used to be. Once in a blue moon I see a guy at the grocery store with a kid in tow. Never used to see that. of course he may only be doing that because she kicked him to the curb and gave him joint custody so he has no choice.

[sothereiwas]

5 minutes ago, preraph said:

I've only known one couple where the man did as much or more than a woman with the kids

I would say I probably "do more" with my child than mom does, but it's not a contest, and in any case it's pretty close. I get the kid up every school morning, make sure everything is in order, walk to the bus stop, wave. Every school day afternoon I walk down, meet the bus, race home (being sure to just barely lose) and make sure snacks are healthy and home work is done, coat is hung, backpack stowed, and so on. In the evenings we do a little reading together most nights. I also do all the grocery shopping.

I'm also sole earner in our family. 

My wife takes care of other things, she's not lazy, and I'm certainly not complaining. 

But then you don't know me so I guess you still only know one. We are out here. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by sothereiwas