Author BettyDraper Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 7 hours ago, basil67 said: This question is extremely loaded, and frankly, doesn't make sense. First of all, would have worded it "Is it "man hating" to believe that many women bear the brunt of the responsibilities of child rearing and housework? " because as soon as ones uses absolutes when we are talking about human behaviour, they automatically lose the argument. Second, it's only man hating if we hate men for it. Now I do believe that a lot of women bear the brunt of child rearing and housework, but I don't hate men for it. So it's not 'man hating'. I don't hate men at all. Frankly, I have bigger concerns when mum and dad both work long hours and the child is parented by a nanny. You’re absolutely right that I should have used a qualifier in my statement. I just forgot. I agree that man hating is entirely separate from sharing truths. I only asked that question because there was a peanut gallery of offended male LS members who accused me of hating men. These are the same types who believe that all women want kids. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Come on, name some names, we want to know exactly who the peanut gallery is 👍 Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 27 minutes ago, LivingWaterPlease said: Oh, I get it! I am often clueless as to sarcasm! And, yes, I see it all the time, men participating. Also, when my H was the sole bread winner and I was a SAHM I always thought I was having a great life because I was doing exactly what I wanted to do, be with my children and be the person teaching them important things about life that a nurturer can relay (that is not to say my exH didn't teach them important things about life, too). I didn't want to have to be concerned about finances, making sure I was consistent in staying employed, etc. My ex husband literally kept my car filled up with gas. I never had to be concerned about car care, lawn care, house maintenance, paying bills, etc. Once I became a single mom my life was far more difficult in some ways. Having to be totally responsible for the financial well-being of a family, as I was as a single mom helped me realize the burden men (or other women) carry when it's on them to provide for a family. Can be very stressful. I really prayed a lot that God would get me through and wouldn't have made it without my faith in Him. I’m so happy that you had the chance to live your dream life. Do you mind if I ask what led to your divorce? Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 I don't believe that all women want kids and I still believe there are some women who no matter what men do will always see us as useless children who their enlightenment. I am not accusing anybody of thinking this way but I know that some women will always hate men no matter what so it is pointless for men to try to live up to their standards. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
meed Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 My husband and I both worked full time (with jobs that (fortunately) allowed us both a lot of time off/flexibility) but he did as many baby/child-rearing chores as me, if not more. He burped after feedings, changed most of the diapers, soothed/rocked/walked a crying baby, bathed and dressed him. Son was breastfed and would not take a bottle so that was the one thing hubby couldn't do, but as soon as he was on solids, then hubby got to do that also. He also fixed everything around the house and maintained the cars and yard. I did the house cleaning/laundry most of the time. We both prepared meals. When son got older, we both helped with homework. Pregnancy/childbirth/breastfeeding are a couple years at most. An involved dad will be there through that and for at least 18 years. So yes, I believe there are plenty of households out there where dads do as much as moms. sometimes more. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
sothereiwas Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, meed said: Pregnancy/childbirth/breastfeeding are a couple years at most. An involved dad will be there through that and for at least 18 years. So yes, I believe there are plenty of households out there where dads do as much as moms. sometimes more. Admittedly, during the first few years she was more involved than I was, although I was there too. Once school started the tables seem to have turned but again, I'm not complaining, I treasure the time I get to have with my family. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Ellener Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 14 hours ago, BettyDraper said: "It's easy for men to say that they want children. Compared to women, men barely go through anything with respect to being parents. Men do not endure pregnancy, childbirth, or breastfeeding. Men do not do the amount of childcare that women do. The societal burden of raising a well adjusted child does not fall to fathers. Parenting just isn't the same for men so they can't accurately speak on motherhood.": I said this in another thread. I was speaking of the difference in workload compared to mothers. Based on my observations and research, mothers do most of the childcare and housework even when they are not SAHMs. Do you believe that men typically do just as much as women when children arrive? Is it "man hating" to believe that women bear the brunt of the responsibilities of child rearing and housework? Why or why not? I think this is a fairly accurate assessment of what women in my generation have just been through ( I am 53 ) but hopefully the younger people will work it out more equitably. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
LivingWaterPlease Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Just now, BettyDraper said: I’m so happy that you had the chance to live your dream life. Do you mind if I ask what led to your divorce? I did think it was a dream life for a time, BettyDraper! When my ex first left me I thought I'd figured out what led to the divorce but as the years have passed and I've gone my own way and he's gone his, I've realized the downfall of our marriage was more complex than I'd originally thought. Although I blamed him for some things and he blamed me for some things, I realized there were other seemingly more subtle things that negatively impacted our marriage in a more powerful way than the obvious ones I thought at the time were the reason. I tried to write about it but it became a very long post that would probably be more than anyone would want to wade through to read! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Woggle said: I don't believe that all women want kids and I still believe there are some women who no matter what men do will always see us as useless children who their enlightenment. I am not accusing anybody of thinking this way but I know that some women will always hate men no matter what so it is pointless for men to try to live up to their standards. Sadly, you are right that some women will always hate men. You are not one of the men on LS who thinks that women can’t possibly decide not to have children. I wasn’t referencing you when I made that comment. I don’t think it is hatred of men to simply discuss experiences as well as evidence of certain behaviours that men tend to engage in. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Ellener said: I think this is a fairly accurate assessment of what women in my generation have just been through ( I am 53 ) but hopefully the younger people will work it out more equitably. Unfortunately, men of this generation are still lagging behind women in this respect. It should be noted that modern fathers do more than their predecessors but women are still doing far more. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 46 minutes ago, LivingWaterPlease said: I did think it was a dream life for a time, BettyDraper! When my ex first left me I thought I'd figured out what led to the divorce but as the years have passed and I've gone my own way and he's gone his, I've realized the downfall of our marriage was more complex than I'd originally thought. Although I blamed him for some things and he blamed me for some things, I realized there were other seemingly more subtle things that negatively impacted our marriage in a more powerful way than the obvious ones I thought at the time were the reason. I tried to write about it but it became a very long post that would probably be more than anyone would want to wade through to read! If you would like to share, then I would be glad to read your long post. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 At the end of the day how do we even know what is going on in the privacy of people's homes? There is no way to measure what goes on unless they have cameras in every home. Link to post Share on other sites
LivingWaterPlease Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, BettyDraper said: If you would like to share, then I would be glad to read your long post. You're kind, Betty! Let me think about how I can post it more concisely. It's like a novel, lol! Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Woggle said: At the end of the day how do we even know what is going on in the privacy of people's homes? There is no way to measure what goes on unless they have cameras in every home. Actually, there are many ways to measure human behavior without cameras. You can choose to look at all of the research on this topic if you want to learn more. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Just now, BettyDraper said: Actually, there are many ways to measure human behavior without cameras. You can choose to look at all of the research on this topic if you want to learn more. But how unless you are just asking people? My ex claimed she put more effort into our relationship when that of course wasn't true. I just think you have to look at each situation on it's own instead of saying men do this and women do that. There are millions of families that have no taken part in any research. It's like political polls. They say one thing and the results say another. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
2BGoodAgain Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 i think you have a valid point and i've seen it myself that same type of workload balance in raising a child... having said that, i think you're right and wrong... right in that if you(the woman) doesn't take an active stance to draw responsibilities early on, and just kinda expect the guy to do the "right" thing... you are subject to his whims... and wrong in that it's easy for a guy to say he wants to have a child with you.... i mean, i'm sure there are some men out there who wants to have a 1000 kids... they usually have no plans to help out.. it's some biological need to spread the genes... but most guys don't say it without some thought and i personally would never say it unless my whole being wanted to have a child with you... having said THAT, we still wouldn't really appreciate or understand the gravity of responsibilities that goes into raising a child... so again, it becomes the burden of the woman to instruct/draw responsibilities that would be shared should she agree to have a child. is it fair that you have to tell the guy how raising a child is going to be? prob not... but it's one of those genetic gender role thingies... it's a generalization, i know.. there are always exceptions, but in general, it's true... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, Woggle said: But how unless you are just asking people? My ex claimed she put more effort into our relationship when that of course wasn't true. I just think you have to look at each situation on it's own instead of saying men do this and women do that. There are millions of families that have no taken part in any research. It's like political polls. They say one thing and the results say another. The statistics are partly from surveys and there are more than enough parents who participate in them in order for scientists to come to conclusions. If you want to go by anecdotal evidence, I did mention that there were enough wives sharing their dissatisfaction in the division of labor with me. I also observed many men doing very little as well as expecting praise for the smallest tasks. I knew that my personal experiences and observations were not true evidence though. One common issue is that most people conflate their personal experiences with social norms. "I helped my wife with our child so that means all husbands do!" Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, 2BGoodAgain said: i think you have a valid point and i've seen it myself that same type of workload balance in raising a child... having said that, i think you're right and wrong... right in that if you(the woman) doesn't take an active stance to draw responsibilities early on, and just kinda expect the guy to do the "right" thing... you are subject to his whims... and wrong in that it's easy for a guy to say he wants to have a child with you.... i mean, i'm sure there are some men out there who wants to have a 1000 kids... they usually have no plans to help out.. it's some biological need to spread the genes... but most guys don't say it without some thought and i personally would never say it unless my whole being wanted to have a child with you... having said THAT, we still wouldn't really appreciate or understand the gravity of responsibilities that goes into raising a child... so again, it becomes the burden of the woman to instruct/draw responsibilities that would be shared should she agree to have a child. is it fair that you have to tell the guy how raising a child is going to be? prob not... but it's one of those genetic gender role thingies... it's a generalization, i know.. there are always exceptions, but in general, it's true... THANK YOU! People don't want to accept uncomfortable truths. It's mystifying when there is a statistical basis for these truths. Exceptions are meaningless. The bottom line is that women often do more than men when they become parents. No amount of men ferrying children to their activities or playing with them will change that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
preraph Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) The way I know anything I know is because I have friends and see for myself what's going on plus listen to them gripe about it. Here's just a sample of how you know. A friend of mine had a special event and asked me to go to it with her. 6 weeks ahead of time she asked her husband if he would watch their child that night. He refused to make any commitments or even talk about it. When I arrived that night he had still not consented to watching the child. She basically just had to tell him she was leaving anyway. Edited February 5, 2020 by preraph 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Men do complain amongst each other but when they do it publicly they are called misogynist and told to man up. I know a lot of men who twist themselves into knots trying to please an ever disapproving woman but if I said most women treated their husbands like that people would have a problem and rightfully so. Link to post Share on other sites
sothereiwas Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 14 minutes ago, Woggle said: Men do complain amongst each other but when they do it publicly they are called misogynist and told to man up. I know a lot of men who twist themselves into knots trying to please an ever disapproving woman but if I said most women treated their husbands like that people would have a problem and rightfully so. I used to think my wife was pretty nifty, but after reading some here I'm increasingly convinced she's an absolute treasure. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Just now, sothereiwas said: I used to think my wife was pretty nifty, but after reading some here I'm increasingly convinced she's an absolute treasure. You and me both. I look at what is out there and I thank god for what I have. Men should hold out and find women like the ones we have or just stay single. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
DKT3 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Social expectations and cultural gender roles for hundreds of years have dictated this. It's only been over the last forty-ish years that we've seen movement. When I was a kid growing up in Southern California coming home from school on the bus and looking out the window mothers were lines up along the street awaiting the arrival of there children. Women who worked more then part time were viewed as less than. Men who stayed home were viewed as even less than working moms. In the last two decades we have seen a rapid shift in both social expectations and gender roles. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
sothereiwas Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, DKT3 said: Men who stayed home were viewed as even less than working moms. Eh, I'm a work-at-home dad, so I'm not sure which slot that fits into Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 49 minutes ago, Woggle said: Men do complain amongst each other but when they do it publicly they are called misogynist and told to man up. I know a lot of men who twist themselves into knots trying to please an ever disapproving woman but if I said most women treated their husbands like that people would have a problem and rightfully so. 30 minutes ago, Woggle said: You and me both. I look at what is out there and I thank god for what I have. Men should hold out and find women like the ones we have or just stay single. Men should be able to voice their concerns without being stifled or accused of misogyny. Woggle, before you met your wife, you understandably hated women due to some traumatic experiences. Is it possible that your past experiences are causing you to believe that most women are hard to please and terrible compared to your wife? Link to post Share on other sites
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