'It's easy for men.

[BettyDraper]

1 hour ago, DKT3 said:

Social expectations and cultural gender roles for hundreds of years have dictated this. It's only been over the last forty-ish years that we've seen movement. 

When I was a kid growing up in Southern California coming home from school on the bus and looking out the window mothers were lines up along the street awaiting the arrival of there children.  Women who worked more then part time were viewed as less than.  Men who stayed home were viewed as even less than working moms. 

In the last two decades we have seen a rapid shift in both social expectations and gender roles.

You're right that there has been a shift. Unfortunately, the division of household labour and childcare has not completely caught up with the societal changes. 

[sothereiwas]

4 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

You're right that there has been a shift. Unfortunately, the division of household labour and childcare has not completely caught up with the societal changes. 

I'm not certain that's really a big deal. Most men work longer or in worse conditions even in cases where they "both work"; I know quite a few people and I literally never see anything too inequitable. 

[basil67]

The division has lessened substantially over the last couple of decades and will continue to.   I do think it's "man hating" to focus only on the negatives without actively crediting those many men who've really stepped up to the plate.  

[BettyDraper]

37 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

I'm not certain that's really a big deal. Most men work longer or in worse conditions even in cases where they "both work"; I know quite a few people and I literally never see anything too inequitable. 

Do you feel that longer hours and worse working conditions gives men licence to leave the housework and childcare to their wives? 

Edited February 5, 2020 by BettyDraper

[BettyDraper]

31 minutes ago, basil67 said:

The division has lessened substantially over the last couple of decades and will continue to.   I do think it's "man hating" to focus only on the negatives without actively crediting those many men who've really stepped up to the plate.  

I'm not sure why some men need so much praise for helping to raise their families and doing household chores. 

Women do such things all the time and I barely hear of them requiring constant applause for it. Of course, that's only my personal experience which isn't real data. 

[Woggle]

1 hour ago, BettyDraper said:

 

Men should be able to voice their concerns without being stifled or accused of misogyny. 

Woggle, before you met your wife, you understandably hated women due to some traumatic experiences.

Is it possible that your past experiences are causing you to believe that most women are hard to please and terrible compared to your wife? 

I honestly don't think that most women are like that anymore than I think most men are useless children who just create more work. Both are negative stereotypes. Those days are mostly behind me and since I don't like my gender being generalized I won't do it to women. I think there is a whole world outside of the online gender wars that isn't so toxic.

[Woggle]

4 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

I'm not sure why some men need so much praise for helping to raise their families and doing household chores. 

Women do such things all the time and I barely hear of them requiring constant applause for it. Of course, that's only my personal experience which isn't real data. 

It's not that men need constant praise for everything but when it is all negative all the time with nothing positive like it is with some women then men just get the feeling that they can't win.

[BettyDraper]

Just now, Woggle said:

I honestly don't think that most women are like that anymore than I think most men are useless children who just create more work. Both are negative stereotypes. Those days are mostly behind me and since I don't like my gender being generalized I won't do it to women. I think there is a whole world outside of the online gender wars that isn't so toxic.

I understand now. Thanks for explaining. 

Stereotypes have a base in reality. I wouldn't go so far as to say that men are "useless children who just create more work" though.

Doing less around the house and with their children does not equate to being completely useless and unhelpful. It's all a matter of degree. 

I know of two different women who are in the process of divorcing their husbands. One of them is being left by a cheating husband who barely worked during their short marriage and abused her in different ways. The other has been supporting her family for years while her husband refused to work inside or outside of the home. These two situations cannot possibly represent all men. I think that most men have the need to provide for their families. 

[BettyDraper]

Just now, Woggle said:

It's not that men need constant praise for everything but when it is all negative all the time with nothing positive like it is with some women then men just get the feeling that they can't win.

Appreciation is especially important for men. However, it might be hard for some overworked moms to provide that appreciation given their situations. Having a career and then coming home to do everything is difficult. Maybe some of the dissatisfied women get frustrated when their husbands want adulation just because they built a crib or played with their children for an hour.

Please be aware that I'm speculating here. It's certainly not healthy to constantly tear down one's spouse. In fact, that's emotional abuse. 

 

[preraph]

I don't think a stay-at-home mom doing everything for the household in the kids and her husband really buys that his job is more difficult than hers unless he's working in a coal mine. 

[BettyDraper]

Just now, preraph said:

I don't think a stay-at-home mom doing everything for the household in the kids and her husband really buys that his job is more difficult than hers unless he's working in a coal mine. 

Many underestimate how difficult it is to look after children effectively. It's very tiresome and monotonous.

Keeping a home clean is not as arduous but it can be when small children are involved. Small children make a lot of messes. 

I'm not speaking of the lazy SAHMs who put their kids in front of the tv, keep dirty homes and barely cook. I'm talking about the SAHMs who actually make an effort. 

I was never so tired as when I worked as a nanny. 

[sothereiwas]

Just now, preraph said:

I don't think a stay-at-home mom doing everything for the household in the kids and her husband really buys that his job is more difficult than hers unless he's working in a coal mine.

What she may or may not believe doesn't change reality. Unless it's the Brady bunch (minus Alice) it's not that big a task to look after a couple kids and a normal house. We have robots to do most of the really hard work. People overseas, where laundry machines are for the maids of rich people, would have a better case. 

[preraph]

I find even house work very difficult. Non-stop house work because kids are right behind you messing it up, hardest job in the world.

[BettyDraper]

18 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

What she may or may not believe doesn't change reality. Unless it's the Brady bunch (minus Alice) it's not that big a task to look after a couple kids and a normal house. We have robots to do most of the really hard work. People overseas, where laundry machines are for the maids of rich people, would have a better case. 

Laundry is not the only chore required of a SAHM. 

Where are these childcare, cooking, and cleaning robots that you're speaking of? 

[preraph]

18 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

What she may or may not believe doesn't change reality. Unless it's the Brady bunch (minus Alice) it's not that big a task to look after a couple kids and a normal house. We have robots to do most of the really hard work. People overseas, where laundry machines are for the maids of rich people, would have a better case. 

Clearly you know how I have no idea how exhausting children are!

[BettyDraper]

1 minute ago, preraph said:

Clearly you know how I have no idea how exhausting children are!

Exactly! It's always those who have never had to take care of children and a home who think that it's easy. 

[preraph]

I don't have kids to take care of and all it has taken me is being around people who do for a few hours at a time to know it's a full-time thankless exhausting job. 

[sothereiwas]

3 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

Laundry is not the only chore required of a SAHM. 

Laundry and washing dishes are two of the bigger routine tasks IME, and yes, I have E, lots of E. More kids, particularly a houseful of little kids, would be a chore, but that's not typical any more. 

[preraph]

I can do laundry and wash dishes with my eyes closed. The hard part is walking around all day bent over double holding on to the back of your toddlers pants so he doesn't set the cat on fire or get out the front door and run out in the street. And then harnessing him up to go pick up your older child at school and then trying to go to the grocery store while wrestling those two. You have no idea.

 

and then you keep having to pick up your three-year-old or else they'll scream all day, so you permanently ruin your back, and then you have to go hunched over some more and mop the floors. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by preraph

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, preraph said:

I can do laundry and wash dishes with my eyes closed. The hard part is walking around all day bent over double holding on to the back of your toddlers pants so he doesn't set the cat on fire or get out the front door and run out in the street. And then harnessing him up to go pick up your older child at school and then trying to go to the grocery store while wrestling those two. You have no idea.

I have no idea. I'm literally LOLing now. 

I've done that job. It's not that big of a deal unless you live in a nail store that's lined with razor blades. 

[DKT3]

2 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

Eh, I'm a work-at-home dad, so I'm not sure which slot that fits into

I'm talking late 70's early 80's. There was not much of this work from home stuff then. 

[Woggle]

Some people enjoy parenthood and some don't.  I guess as with anything if you enjoy it it doesn't feel like work.

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, DKT3 said:

I'm talking late 70's early 80's. There was not much of this work from home stuff then. 

If those kids still need constant care, splitting the workload is the least of your worries. 

[preraph]

I've never once heard a mother say it's not work and that it's not miserable at times and certainly never heard one say it wasnt exhausting. I heard plenty of men say that though.

[sothereiwas]

In my experience the worst part was the danger of thinking about it being a thankless job, without reminding myself how thankful my kid would be looking back 20 years later. The work itself was repetitive and tedious, but for the most part not that hard. Gross more often than I would have liked. Not hard. Nothing like my paying job, effort-wise, stress-wise, or any other -wise.