'It's easy for men.

[Els]

On 2/5/2020 at 1:08 PM, BettyDraper said:

"It's easy for men to say that they want children. Compared to women, men barely go through anything with respect to being parents. Men do not endure pregnancy, childbirth, or breastfeeding. Men do not do the amount of childcare that women do. The societal burden of raising a well adjusted child does not fall to fathers.  Parenting just isn't the same for men so they can't accurately speak on motherhood.":

I said this in another thread. I was speaking of the difference in workload compared to mothers.

Well, to be fair, the bolded isn't necessarily true. Some men do go through a lot and do a lot for their children, whereas some men do literally zero - so on an individual level, I wouldn't make such an assertion because it's not true for everyone. But on average, especially when the biological sacrifices are factored in (pregnancy has a zero mortality rate to men, but 17 in 100,000 women will die from it, the majority of women will endure some degree of postpartum effects, etc), it's probably true that on average women go through more. In terms of childcare, again individually there are some men who do a lot and some women who do little, but on average women do more even if they work full-time.

Basically, I think the crux of it is that if you want kids, be sure to select a partner based on indications of whether or not he will be an equal parent... and if you don't want kids, don't have them.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Elswyth

[BettyDraper]

3 hours ago, Crazelnut said:

Why are we debating this? Multiple studies have shown that working women do more of the work wrt raising children and running a household, but also carry more of the mental load (keeping track of the appointments, remembering family milestones, making sure someone planned meals, coordinating with the housecleaners, etc.). Anecdotes don't really matter. Nor does the fact that men doing physical work in dangerous workplaces die in workplace accidents. Sheesh.

We’re debating it because some members are unable to accept less palatable facts despite the large body of evidence. Others doltishly believe that their experiences set the standard for every family. I need my IQ points so I can’t be bothered to argue with those who choose to be uneducated about this topic. 

[thefooloftheyear]

I dunno,  folks...

I'm sure if I wanted to make the assertion that giving a kid too much Lucky Charms cereal will result in them transforming into winged jackals by the age of 4, then I may be able to find affirmation out there on the net.....Of course I have tongue in cheek here,  but understand, some of this stuff starts to get crazy....

Everyone knows when something starts to get too inequitable....At that point, you either work it out, or move on...Ive even found that many couples whos relationship has failed miserably, still maintain equity in raising kids....Its not all to be measured in how much one does or what they do in particular...They put aside their own personal differences and work it through...

:Like stated,  I run businesses that involve some really tough physical work in some really tough elements....Despite paying almost twice what a typical school teacher makes no woman aver applied for the  job in more than 30 year of doing this,.and hiring employees....So this is primarily a mans domain..I sometimes wonder how I am able to still find guys willing to do it, thankfully it pays pretty well for them....I know what type of shape you are in at quitting time, so I get it....But what if their wives now started to complain to their friends about what their husbands don't do around the house and they didn't know what type of environment these guys are working in on a daily basis?...They don't have the whole story...

So, don't just take everything at face value....Get the background info before making statements that may be false..

TFY

Edited February 6, 2020 by thefooloftheyear

[BettyDraper]

4 hours ago, kevinjones said:

Ok.. Let's assume women do more of the "child work".  

Tell me a more rewarding job?  I do not know what your career is, but millions of women are servers, work at Walmart, some boring office job etc. For that you trade all of your time for a paycheck. And you are easily replaceable at anytime.  You do not get any love. You will never be a mom. You are missing out on one of the most amazing human experiences. 

I am more traditional, and my ex wife definitely did more of the "child work". I do not think when she is on her death bed she will say "oh wow, I wish I never had those experiences! I wish I worked more to buy a fancier purse". And when the child is a little older, the father typically does more. it naturally flows.  

Nobody cares about some weird stats that make it seem like women have it sooooooooo hard these days, with all the modern advancements (disposable diapers, microwaves, clean living environments) to raise a baby or two.  It honestly sounds a bit spoiled. 

 

 

 

 

I have never argued that raising children and being at home makes women unhappy. My point was that moms do most of the work of raising kids and running a household whether they stay home or not. 
 

Children are not the only source of love either. 
 

Only uneducated people don’t care about stats or other types of information because they were never taught to. I’m not only speaking of formal education. I am also referring to the thirst for knowledge and love of learning. It’s hard for me to take a willfully ignorant person seriously. 
 

You might want to consider that for some moms, their careers bring them much satisfaction and they would be unhappy as SAHMs. The world is crawling with professional women, who have obtained higher education and work in corporate careers. Your belief that women work at dead end jobs is stupid at best. It’s also a sign of low socioeconomic class. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by BettyDraper

[kevinjones]

18 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

I have never argued that raising children and being at home makes women unhappy. My point was that moms do most of the work of raising kids and running a household whether they stay home or not. 
 

Children are not the only source of love either. 
 

Only uneducated people don’t care about stats or other types of information because they were never taught to. I’m not only speaking of formal education. I am also referring to the thirst for knowledge and love of learning. It’s hard for me to take a willfully ignorant person seriously. 
 

You might want to consider that for some moms, their careers bring them much satisfaction and they would be unhappy as SAHMs. The world is crawling with professional women, who have obtained higher education and work in corporate careers. Your belief that women work at dead end jobs is stupid at best. It’s also a sign of low socioeconomic class. 

Is that a personal attack?   I am saying that stats are largely misleading unless you know exactly how the study was conducted.  I do shop at stores and frequent restaurants and see many women working there.  

The reality is that when a child is very young, women certainly do more of the work regarding that child.  But let's be serious. If a woman hates raising her own offspring that much, she probably has deeper problems and should not have children. 

There is no comparison , or many other examples of total and pure unconditional love, besides a parent and child. Sure, maybe a woman loves her boss. or her co worker. or her neighbor. But they can't even be compared. 

 

 

[Els]

13 minutes ago, kevinjones said:

The reality is that when a child is very young, women certainly do more of the work regarding that child. 

Lol, I hope you realize that you are essentially proving the OP's point, at least in your particular instance.

And no... I don't think it's a "certainty". Like I said, it's individual, even if the average lies more towards your side of the balance. I know a few new fathers who share the night feedings and diaper-changing equally (much props to them). Things are changing, even though they are still generally skewed.

[kevinjones]

39 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

You might want to consider that for some moms, their careers bring them much satisfaction and they would be unhappy as SAHMs. The world is crawling with professional women, who have obtained higher education and work in corporate careers. Your belief that women work at dead end jobs is stupid at best. It’s also a sign of low socioeconomic class. 

Actually I live in a an upscale subdivision. The women drive new cars, have house cleaners, and spend their days playing tennis, having lunch with friends, shopping, and going to dinner with their husbands after he is finished working. I honestly cannot say that is some hard and terribly over worked life for these stay at home moms.  

[kevinjones]

6 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

Lol, I hope you realize that you are essentially proving the OP's point, at least in your particular instance.

And no... I don't think it's a "certainty". Like I said, it's individual, even if the average lies more towards your side of the balance. I know a few new fathers who share the night feedings and diaper-changing equally (much props to them). Things are changing, even though they are still generally skewed.

Well in my case, that was the case. I wasn't waking up to breast feed. many men also travel for work.  But my wife stayed home.  Over the longer term, when the child is in school, then it changes.   Some women even love raising cats. And dogs. Why is it viewed that all women hate raising a child? And view it as horrible work?

Edited February 6, 2020 by kevinjones

[Els]

3 minutes ago, kevinjones said:

Well in my case, that was the case. I wasn't waking up to breast feed. many men also travel for work.  But my wife stayed home.  Over the longer term, when the child is in school, then it changes.   Some women even love raising cats. And dogs. Why is it viewed that all women hate raising a child? And view it as horrible work?

I don't think that anyone said all women hate it?

[sothereiwas]

4 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

And no... I don't think it's a "certainty".

Sort of depends on the phase I guess. I came into this thinking we were going to talk about the subject holistically, child care, house work, income earning, and so on. Then someone decided it was all about being pregnant, emergency child birthing procedures, and rare diseases triggered by the same. Well sure, only the woman is pregnant. The workload of raising a family isn't over at birth, however, so ...

[Els]

I didn't read all of the thread and I don't know who said that, but while I disagree with them that it is "everything", I do think the biological burden has to be included in the total burden, because, well, it exists. It's not men's (or anyone else's) fault that it exists, evolution is a cruel bitch. But if a woman who is on the fence were to ask about it, it's probably something she should consider. Of course, if a woman wants kids, then it's not really a factor because it's not something she can control, or at least not at our current level of medical technology. Only the selection of a partner is something she can control.

Edited February 7, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote removed

[BettyDraper]

1 hour ago, Elswyth said:

I don't think that anyone said all women hate it?

Yes, not one person has said that every mom is miserable because she has kids. 

Raising pets is not nearly as difficult as raising children. I say this as a woman who loves my teacup poodle. He’s very smart, sweet and cuddly. I adore him and training him has been very rewarding. However, he isn’t a child. Kids can’t be crated or made to eat face first from bowls on the floor unless the parents want to go to prison. 

[Els]

6 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

I greatly appreciate this post but I’m not interested in discussions with men who make ludicrous statements like “childbirth isn’t that bad”-as if he would know! I also think that arrogant and ignorant types who don’t respect women can accept that that a woman might be correct about some topics. 

I think any doctor who has ever done a term in O&G would absolutely say that "childbirth isn't that bad" is a ludicrous statement indeed.

IMO, most people outside of this thread, including women who are biological parents, know and acknowledge that childbirth IS bad. Some women just find it to be worth it, just like how people choose to do all sorts of other risky and painful things in life like being an astronaut or that ultra running thread that we just saw. And there's nothing at all wrong with that, except that nobody gets judged for NOT wanting to run 50 miles, yet there's judgement aplenty for women who opt out of the whole reproduction process.

[sothereiwas]

Just now, Elswyth said:

IMO, most people outside of this thread, including women who are biological parents, know and acknowledge that childbirth IS bad

I would use the word difficult. Bad is a word with many connotations, but I believe the sense of what you're saying is something most reasonable people can agree with. How difficult it is depends on a number of factors apparently, with it not being at all difficult in some instances to being fatal in others. On average, I'm glad it's not me doing it. On the other hand, I don't think a typical birthing is the hardest thing about raising a kid. Sprints are always easier for me than marathons. In fact, if somehow I had the choice of carrying the kid for 9 months, or only giving birth, I'd go with option B in a heartbeat. 

I won't judge any woman as lesser for not wanting to have kids, but I wouldn't ever marry such a woman either. 

[Els]

Just now, sothereiwas said:

 In fact, if somehow I had the choice of carrying the kid for 9 months, or only giving birth, I'd go with option B in a heartbeat.

Right, but in reproduction the woman is the one doing both. I think we are in agreement that there is definitely an unequal burden in that aspect alone.

Yes, I agree that it's not the hardest part. Even if I was a man, I would probably still not want to have children, although I'd be closer to the fence than I am now. I mean, sure, I could be one of those deadbeat dads that reproduces while taking zero responsibility for anything, but I have more conscience than to do that.

[Tamfana]

9 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

I think any doctor who has ever done a term in O&G would absolutely say that "childbirth isn't that bad" is a ludicrous statement indeed.

IMO, most people outside of this thread, including women who are biological parents, know and acknowledge that childbirth IS bad. Some women just find it to be worth it, just like how people choose to do all sorts of other risky and painful things in life like being an astronaut or that ultra running thread that we just saw. And there's nothing at all wrong with that, except that nobody gets judged for NOT wanting to run 50 miles, yet there's judgement aplenty for women who opt out of the whole reproduction process.

You're right. Childbirth is "bad"- hurts like the dickens.  Frankly, nursing also hurts at the beginning, or did for me.  

There is so much judgment against women who choose not to have kids. My daughters (28 & 32) don't want kids- one's equivocal- and already they get judgmental comments here and there.  It's ridiculous. 

[Els]

1 minute ago, Tamfana said:

You're right. Childbirth is "bad"- hurts like the dickens.  Frankly, nursing also hurts at the beginning, or did for me.  

There is so much judgment against women who choose not to have kids. My daughters (28 & 32) don't want kids- one's equivocal- and already they get judgmental comments here and there.  It's ridiculous. 

 Thank you for that. I'm glad your daughters have a supportive mum like you, at the very least. It's a huge boost to them that you accept their decision, and I really think that will help them shrug off the onslaught of the judgers. I literally had to threaten my mum with NC to get her to stop pressuring me.

[RecentChange]

Apparently we can't link to articles any more.

Historic long term trends - every 100 to 200 births resulted in the death of the mother.

"But it's not that bad"

In modern America, the mortality rate is 26.4 per 100,000 live births - that would be 3,500+ deaths of mother's for every year.

"But it's not that bad"

It's estimated that for every death, an additional 70 women nearly die. That's 50,000 annually, some research groups put the number closer to 80,000 annually, mothers who almost die due to child birth in the United States.

"But it's not that bad" - ya know this one Asian nurse said it wasn't a big deal.

Edited February 6, 2020 by RecentChange

[thefooloftheyear]

11 minutes ago, Tamfana said:

 

There is so much judgment against women who choose not to have kids. My daughters (28 & 32) don't want kids- one's equivocal- and already they get judgmental comments here and there.  It's ridiculous. 

True, and that's terrible...they shouldn't be judged...

But to be fair, there is also a back and forth...

I follow several fitness groups, and every once in a while there will be women(some not so young)  posting pics and video, engaging in rigorous workouts while pregnant, and others which show pregnant women in gym gear full term ready to deliver,  then only a month or so later, looking fabulous..like she never was pregnant...

And the comments from the ladies can be really harsh....You would think they would applaud it, but its not the case....They often get shredded to hell by a lot of angry women who(I guess) don't want anyone to believe that a woman can actually survive childbirth  without severe complication and a totally destroyed body....Doesn't J Lo and Shakira also have kids?  I dunno, I think so..

No judgements here....Just observations....

TFY

Edited February 6, 2020 by thefooloftheyear

[Els]

3 minutes ago, RecentChange said:

Apparently we can't link to articles any more.

Historic long term trends - every 100 to 200 births resulted in the death of the mother.

"But it's not that bad"

In modern America, the mortality rate is 26.4 per 100,000 live births - that would be 3,500+ deaths of mother's for every 100,000 births.

"But it's not that bad"

It's estimated that for every death, an additional 70 women nearly die. That's 50,000 annually, some research groups put the number closer to 80,000 annually, mothers who almost die due to child birth in the United States.

"But it's not that bad" - ya know this one Asian nurse said it wasn't a big deal.

Hmm, really, a nurse said that? Was she trained at all in ObGyn? Really makes me wonder about her qualifications.

H, a doctor, absolutely agrees that "it's BAD, with a capital B".

[sothereiwas]

11 minutes ago, RecentChange said:

the mortality rate is 26.4 per 100,000 live births - that would be 3,500+ deaths of mother's for every 100,000 births

Not sure I follow your math on that one. Explain. 

 

EDIT:

"Approximately 800 women in the US die each year during pregnancy and within 42 days after delivery. " - JAMA

Edited February 6, 2020 by sothereiwas
Added cite

[Tamfana]

9 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

 Thank you for that. I'm glad your daughters have a supportive mum like you, at the very least. It's a huge boost to them that you accept their decision, and I really think that will help them shrug off the onslaught of the judgers. I literally had to threaten my mum with NC to get her to stop pressuring me.

Thank you.  I'm not sure how supportive I am but their dad and stepmom pressure a lot so I look good in comparison I suppose.  I can see their threatening to cut them off if they don't stop, like you did.  We'll see how intense the pressure gets as they get older.  

[Tamfana]

7 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

Hmm, really, a nurse said that? Was she trained at all in ObGyn? Really makes me wonder about her qualifications.

H, a doctor, absolutely agrees that "it's BAD, with a capital B".

Years ago a comedienne- Roseanne Barr maybe- said it was like passing a cantaloupe through your nostril.  😄

[kevinjones]

On 2/4/2020 at 10:08 PM, BettyDraper said:

 

Do you believe that men typically do just as much as women when children arrive? 

Is it "man hating" to believe that women bear the brunt of the responsibilities of child rearing and housework? 

Why or why not? 

 

Isn't doing "mom work" far easier now than it has ever been?

Similac, canned baby food, disposable diapers, microwaves, Amazon, baby monitors, clean living conditions, electricity, easy credit, grocery stores deliver to your front door, a plethora of govt programs. And people generally today only have 1 or 2 in Western Nations.

My grandma in Europe had 12 before, during, and after ww2 in Europe during food and clothing shortages,  and bombings.. All of which survived and lived long successful lives..

I just can't sympathize with "how hard" it is to be a mom these days.

 

  

 

[basil67]

2 minutes ago, kevinjones said:

Similac, canned baby food, disposable diapers, microwaves, Amazon, baby monitors, clean living conditions, electricity, easy credit, grocery stores deliver to your front door, a plethora of govt programs. And people generally today only have 1 or 2 in Western Nations.

Feeding and cleaning is only a small part of "mom work".