'It's easy for men.

[BettyDraper]

25 minutes ago, Tamfana said:

You're right. Childbirth is "bad"- hurts like the dickens.  Frankly, nursing also hurts at the beginning, or did for me.  

There is so much judgment against women who choose not to have kids. My daughters (28 & 32) don't want kids- one's equivocal- and already they get judgmental comments here and there.  It's ridiculous. 

I think it's even more ridiculous when men preach at women who choose not to have kids. Men aren't the ones who go through all of the physical changes.  They don't have to handle deal with all the other aspects of parenting to the same extent that women do either. I have never said that men do not parent or that their presence is unimportant. I have only asserted and proven that men do far less than women do when there are children in the picture. 

Those who don't experience most of the difficulties of a decision cannot speak on it without sounding ill informed and silly. 

FWIW, my husband and I have a traditional marriage except for being childfree. I take care of the home and our dog while he works. I enjoy my life far more than I did when I worked in health administration. Doing all of the housework is my way of thanking my husband for providing for us. This arrangement is beneficial because my husband's career is very demanding and mentally taxing. He loves not having to worry about housework and cooking. If we had a child, I would gladly stay home with him or her and take on most of the responsibilities. 

It's not unfair for one spouse to do most of the housework and childcare if they are home. The inequity begins when both spouses are working full time yet one spouse-usually the wife-is taking care of the kids and the household.

 

[basil67]

1 minute ago, kevinjones said:

Definitely. Sometimes I just wonder how women did it back in the day?  Was the culture just far less whiny and complaining? 

The oldest girls would help with the domestics and raise the youngest children and the boys would be out the door working by the time they were 14 or so.   My mother was 5th of 6 kids and was largely raised by her older sisters while her mother got on with housework and raising the disabled sibling. 

And I'm sure that many a whine was had over a shared cup of tea or side fence.  It's just that you weren't privvy to it because it wasn't on social media. 

[BettyDraper]

35 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

Hmm, really, a nurse said that? Was she trained at all in ObGyn? Really makes me wonder about her qualifications.

H, a doctor, absolutely agrees that "it's BAD, with a capital B".

That's because your husband is highly educated as well as intelligent. 

 

[Woggle]

The childbirth thing is all on the woman and I imagine it is quite painful so I will never tell a woman how to feel about that. The notion that all men are useless and don't care of their kids I will take issue with though. These are two separate issues.

[BettyDraper]

I'd love to see these types of males endure the processes that they think are "no big deal" or be SAHDs. 😄

[BettyDraper]

1 minute ago, Woggle said:

The childbirth thing is all on the woman and I imagine it is quite painful so I will never tell a woman how to feel about that. The notion that all men are useless and don't care of their kids I will take issue with though. These are two separate issues.

I have never said that men are useless. I also did not say that men don't take care of their kids. 

I have said that men do less of the childcare. There's a huge difference between doing less and doing nothing. 

[Woggle]

1 minute ago, BettyDraper said:

I'd love to see these types of males endure the processes that they think are "no big deal" or be SAHDs. 😄

SAHDs are actually on the rise and I know of two men who are raising kids on their own and doing a great job.

[Tamfana]

5 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

I think it's even more ridiculous when men preach at women who choose not to have kids.

 

Agreed.  It's silly.  I don't understand what's going on here, but hackles up, it's only "difficult" or this is worse or that is harder.  I'm not going to kick the beehive given how buzzy it already is.  But yeah.  I hear you.  

[Els]

4 hours ago, kevinjones said:

Definitely. Sometimes I just wonder how women did it back in the day?  Was the culture just far less whiny and complaining? 

I assure you that people of both genders have always complained about a lot of things,  including their job, their life, their partner, etc. If someone tells me that he's getting back pain and lung problems because he works in a mine, I certainly would NOT tell him "Nah, it's not that bad, miners have been doing it like this for years, why are you whining about it?"

 

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
rude

[BettyDraper]

35 minutes ago, Tamfana said:

Thank you.  I'm not sure how supportive I am but their dad and stepmom pressure a lot so I look good in comparison I suppose.  I can see their threatening to cut them off if they don't stop, like you did.  We'll see how intense the pressure gets as they get older.  

One of the reasons I cut off my mother was she kept making snide remarks about my decision not to have kids. She also spread rumors that my husband is forcing me to be childfree. 

She was a cruel and abusive mother on top of her response to my decision to be childfree. She made it clear that her children ruined her life and robbed her of disposable income as well as opportunities. My mother took out her resentment on her children with physical and verbal abuse. 

Despite all of this, my mother demanded friendship and complained to anyone who would listen that I didn't want to visit her. She even had her friends and our relatives badger me into into being close to her but I refused.  Low contact only led to more disrespect of my boundaries so I went No Contact. I don't need constant negative energy in my life. 

Your daughters are lucky to have such an accepting mother. Keep on being a great mom. 

[basil67]

6 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

I have never said that men are useless. I also did not say that men don't take care of their kids. 

I have said that men do less of the childcare. There's a huge difference between doing less and doing nothing. 

@BettyDraper the problem is still that you're not using qualifiers.   Some men do less.  Many men do less.  A few men do less.   My issues with your argument is not the research you present, but rather in your presentation of the argument.   And it's that same presentation which is 'radfem' in attitude.  

If it was a man talking about all women as a job lot, I'd call him out too.

Edited February 6, 2020 by basil67

[BettyDraper]

5 minutes ago, Woggle said:

SAHDs are actually on the rise and I know of two men who are raising kids on their own and doing a great job.

While I agree that SAHDs are on the rise, they are still not the norm so it doesn't really matter.

Single fathers are far less common than single mothers even though it's wonderful that your friends are great single dads. 

Look at the averages in order to correctly extrapolate patterns. There are always exceptions but they are irrelevant. 

[sothereiwas]

4 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

While I agree that SAHDs are on the rise, they are still not the norm so it doesn't really matter.

That's awfully dismissive, particularly coming from a person with a self reported experience of zero on the topic. 

[thefooloftheyear]

3 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

I'd love to see these types of males endure the processes that they think are "no big deal" or be SAHDs. 😄

I see you are ignoring my posts but let me ask a question....and anyone else is free to answer...

As a parent myself, I went the whole way on the birth of my child...Start to finish.....Was in the room...Cut the cord...was there every step of the way....During that time, my kids mom was showered with attention, care, help from family members, a big party, a bunch of great gifts.....the whole nine yards...Thank God, the delivery was smooth and no complications...Birthing process took around 4 hours start to finish and everyone happy and healthy....We could have left the hospital right after the epidural wore off and went home with healthy child.. Stayed for a day....more gifts, ...visits from all kinds of family and friends.....A joyous experience for all involved...

Doctors and nurses never said anything about the process being "bad'...That would be absolutely absurd, btw...They advised us on what we should and shouldn't do and what we should and shouldn't accept and otherwise were all positive, relaxed and happy for us, as I would imagine they would be for any expecting couple...

Id imagine that this story wouldn't be all that much different than many(dare I say most) others....Happy times....Temporary pain for a lifetime of pleasure and joy...This isn't a speculative thing like some of you are proposing, but rather a real world example...

So.....What if the guy that is having to now assume the main role of provider(or may have already been) is out working on power lines all day,  with enough voltage to turn him into a potato chip with one misstep...Or maybe he's outside driving a truck through ice and snow, with 80,000 lbs of steel that if control is lost for a split second,  a tragedy of epic proportion is the result....Or maybe he is working on a roof, breaking his back carrying hundreds of pounds of asphalt up and down ladders in blazing heat and frigid cold...And these fathers/men are doing these things each and every single day....its never "over" until they die or retire...

This is not a sob story for men,...Just a reminder that a lot of what goes into parenting involves sacrifice....Its not a competition over who struggles the most...Its a pact that parents make with each other to bring a life into this world...Does it work that way all the time?  No ...Of course not...But that's all you hope for..

TFY

 

[Woggle]

I will stick up for men all day when it comes to parenting and taking care of the kids but when it comes to carrying the kid and giving birth that is all the woman. It is not men's fault because mother nature has made it that way but it is clear that women have the biggest burden. For many women the result at the end is 100% worth it but it doesn't mean it is an easy process.

[BettyDraper]

1 minute ago, Woggle said:

I will stick up for men all day when it comes to parenting and taking care of the kids but when it comes to carrying the kid and giving birth that is all the woman. It is not men's fault because mother nature has made it that way but it is clear that women have the biggest burden. For many women the result at the end is 100% worth it but it doesn't mean it is an easy process.

The care of the child after birth is mostly the woman as well. I think it's easy to understand that this is not akin to saying that men do absolutely nothing. 

If you believe that men do the same amount of work as women do, I would be happy to see what sources you can cite to support that argument. 

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, BettyDraper said:

If you believe that men do the same amount of work as women do, I would be happy to see what sources you can cite to support that argument. 

Source: My family.

If you say "some men" then I think a lot more people would agree you're right, and then simply say "so what".

[Woggle]

I can't site sources but neither can you because nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors in people's homes. There are also millions of homes that didn't take part in some survey. 

[kevinjones]

9 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

The care of the child after birth is mostly the woman as well. I think it's easy to understand that this is not akin to saying that men do absolutely nothing. 

If you believe that men do the same amount of work as women do, I would be happy to see what sources you can cite to support that argument. 

I don't think this is some new discovery. Women give birth , and in most cases women are primary caregivers, especially during the tender years. I think OP is saying, since now more women work, and salaries are lower due to men and women working, they have to work AND take care of kids more.  But this is all subjective and difficult to measure.

Edited February 6, 2020 by kevinjones

[basil67]

9 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

The care of the child after birth is mostly the woman as well. I think it's easy to understand that this is not akin to saying that men do absolutely nothing. 

If you believe that men do the same amount of work as women do, I would be happy to see what sources you can cite to support that argument. 

Again with the qualifiers.  A few qualifiers spattered here and there don't take away from so many posts where you don't use them.   I agree with @sothereiwas If you consistently used qualifiers, most would agree with you then go on to other topics. 

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by basil67

[Tamfana]

23 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

One of the reasons I cut off my mother was she kept making snide remarks about my decision not to have kids. She also spread rumors that my husband is forcing me to be childfree. 

She was a cruel and abusive mother on top of her response to my decision to be childfree. She made it clear that her children ruined her life and robbed her of disposable income as well as opportunities. My mother took out her resentment on her children with physical and verbal abuse. 

Despite all of this, my mother demanded friendship and complained to anyone who would listen that I didn't want to visit her. She even had her friends and our relatives badger me into into being close to her but I refused.  Low contact only led to more disrespect of my boundaries so I went No Contact. I don't need constant negative energy in my life. 

Your daughters are lucky to have such an accepting mother. Keep on being a great mom. 

I'm so sorry to hear that.  

I'll try. I couldn't stand being cut off.  We argue at times. But no, that would be the worst, driving my own child away. I am the only woman in my immediate family that's gushy about babies and kids, so I'm the oddball. But I just delayed the career.  You take a ferocious economic hit.  I wouldn't recommend it.  

[Ruby Slippers]

It's true that in general, women do more child care and housework than men. It's also true that men do more heavy lifting and yard work than women. And?

[Els]

Quote

As a parent myself, I went the whole way on the birth of my child...Start to finish.....Was in the room...Cut the cord...was there every step of the way....During that time, my kids mom was showered with attention, care, help from family members, a big party, a bunch of great gifts.....the whole nine yards...Thank God, the delivery was smooth and no complications...Birthing process took around 4 hours start to finish and everyone happy and healthy....We could have left the hospital right after the epidural wore off and went home with healthy child.. Stayed for a day....more gifts, ...visits from all kinds of family and friends.....A joyous experience for all involved...

Yes, you witnessed an exceptionally easy birth... and more importantly you weren't the one going through it. So far, every mother on this thread had described it differently from you.

I mean, that's kind of like me saying "I don't understand why men whine about having to work or earn money. I work full time and earn a pretty decent salary and life every day is fantastic. I have flexible hours on my job, I can work in comfy AC while sipping tea, it's incredibly fulfilling."

Sure all of the above is true for me but it would be ridiculous to assume that it's the same for everyone, or to use my experience to invalidate everyone who complains about their job. Some jobs, as you've described, are horrific - the same goes with some births.

Quote

Doctors and nurses never said anything about the process being "bad'...That would be absolutely absurd, btw...T

Doctors and nurses are not going to tell the patient that his brain surgery or cardiac bypass is going to be "bad", either, for obvious reasons. They do talk among themselves.

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, Elswyth said:

I mean, that's kind of like me saying "I don't understand why men whine about having to work or earn money. I work full time and earn a pretty decent salary and life every day is fantastic. I have flexible hours on my job, I can work in comfy AC while sipping tea, it's incredibly fulfilling."

I have much the same experience. After seeing what my dad and uncles had to do to support their families I'm a little embarrassed to even claim I work at all sometimes. 

[Els]

1 minute ago, sothereiwas said:

I have much the same experience. After seeing what my dad and uncles had to do to support their families I'm a little embarrassed to even claim I work at all sometimes. 

Yeah, our jobs (I think they are similar?) are pretty darn cushy. I love mine and I plan on taking it as far as I can go, even though we don't really need the extra money.