Never thought I'd be here.

[Husbandssecret]

Wow @Mrin that was amazing!! Thank you for laying that all out. It’s really helpful to know what to expect. The other weird thing is that he was soooo against me doing therapy. I think he knew it meant I would gain the strength to leave the situation. It’s so hard because I can’t tell what is manipulation and what is actual emotions/love. And even through this breakup, I can’t tell what is him being hurt (is he capable of that?) or what is manipulation. I have to remind myself he’s a master manipulator. I agree that he likely has no nefarious intentions with it, it’s just his personality and something he’s good at. He’s very good at getting people to do what he wants them to do. As you can tell I’m in the angry phase again. I spent most of the day in the sad sulky phase where you cry so much you have a headache and you’re pretty sure you have no tears left. You guys have been great with helping me navigate this. 

[Husbandssecret]

Also he’s already set himself up for the health tragedy which I think he did sensing I was getting ready to leave. He told me that his grandfather was put into hospice care this week. Naturally his wife and his Kids flew out to visit him this week because he couldn’t make it due to work.  

[Mrin]

His stance about being against therapy is probably one of two things:

1. Like you suspect - trying to keep you weak. 

2. Not wanting anyone else to know about your affair. 

It's probably number two unless he's really good at understanding how people work. 

[Husbandssecret]

3 minutes ago, S2B said:

Be cautious, it’s Valentine’s Day and he may send an abundance of flowers and gifts... just to get you to reconsider.

if not today - it may be in the next few days when he’s capable of making the purchase without his wife noticing.

it sucks to be the secret. 

I made things easy for him as the OW because I’m so easy going usually. I actually don’t like flowers so he’s never bought me any. He’s also never bought me a gift before and that never bothered me. But he has for sure tried to use Valentine’s Day as a thing against me. Technically I ended things yesterday and he said that I left him on Valentine’s Day. Which by the way in the past he’s never made Valentine’s Day a big deal. 

[LivingWaterPlease]

25 minutes ago, S2B said:

sheez, the guy didn’t even have to do gifts or flowers? You let him off easy.  Expect more from the next guy you date.

OP, nothing you've written about this guy makes him sound like a catch.  Add to that the above. What a loser. Don't mean to offend you.

You're young, beautiful, well educated.  You can do way better than this.  Fortunately, you're still young! Look on the bright side, you could be making this decision a couple years (or more) later!

[Husbandssecret]

29 minutes ago, S2B said:

Mrin is spot on! The list is concise and accurate.

just remember - even IF he has a medical emergency it’s not like you can walk into a hospital and visit him. It’s his wife that will be there taking care of him.

and his fathers care? Well heck, he sent his family and stayed home to work - what a great guy. 😟

the guy isn’t divorcing - that’s what you need to know. And there’s no reason to waste one more day waiting on a known liar.

glad you are going to do therapy. you’ll gain clarity the longer you are away from him. I’d block all ways he can communicate with you. You’ll get better faster if you aren’t looking in the rear view mirror.

sheez, the guy didn’t even have to do gifts or flowers? You let him off easy.  Expect more from the next guy you date.

I’m not quite to the blocking point but I know it will make it easier on me. It’s still very fresh and for some reason I want to see him grovel a bit. Sounds completely crazy I know. I do work with him and while I don’t see him everyday it’s enough to cause anxiety. I definitely let him off easy with the no gifts thing! I just haven’t been a material person. I’m well enough off that if there’s things I want I just buy it. Also it’s his grandfather who is ill, he’s visiting in a couple weeks. The not being able to get out of work I actually know is true and sucks. 
 

as for the anti therapy thing, I think it’s a little of both. He selfishly doesn’t want anyone to know (even though it’s confidential) and he has said before that the therapist would suggest we end things because that’s really the only problem in my life. He doesn’t want someone talking in my ear about how much better long term I would be by removing myself from this situation. 

[mark clemson]

5 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

I’m not quite to the blocking point but I know it will make it easier on me. It’s still very fresh and for some reason I want to see him grovel a bit. Sounds completely crazy I know.

Not really. You're only human and this hurts. You probably want to confirm he got hurt a bit too and/or feel you regained some power as these things tend to be very uneven.

 

5 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

I do work with him and while I don’t see him everyday it’s enough to cause anxiety.

Do be careful with that. Lotta potential for negatives in a work context. From him showing up unexpectedly to sneaky office tactics once it's fully over (if he's the type to bother with that). Hopefully none of that will happen and it certainly might not. But be on the lookout for that sort of stuff as well, potentially.

[heartwhole2]

I'll just say that his whining and lack of empathy and true concern for you are a real turn-off. Anyone has a right to end a relationship at any time, and someone who is being asked to wait for a married man who keeps punting cannot be expected to remain through thick and thin. And yet it's all about him . . . you left me on Valentine's Day, if you only you had waited, I can't make it past that . . . Where is his concern for what you're going through? Where is his respect for your needs and boundaries? (Of course, if he had these qualities in abundance, would he be having an affair?) Where is his perspective of what he's put you through for four years versus what you have proposed that is supposedly only for a few weeks? 

You met him when you were 22. You have a whole lifetime of healthy relationships to have in front of you. Do you think you're going to get that with this guy?

[assertives]

7 hours ago, Mrin said:

Echoing @mark clemson on this one. So one of the things I do for a living is talk people into doing things - e.g. contract negotiation/dispute mediation. What I've found is that some people are just gifted at manipulation and it sounds like he's one of them because he's hitting all the bases in the right order. And when I say manipulation I don't mean it in a negative way, rather in just a neutral way of getting people to do what they want. He may not even be aware of it and it doesn't mean it is a bad thing. This actually might be the natural progression in his mind. Here's the usual playbook for these folks and it more or less falls in this order and will probably give you a heads up on what's to come.

------ phone call -------

1. Collective Identity: "this when we need to be pulling together in a time of need" - shifts the conversation from a you vs. him to a "we" and as a happy little byproduct, gives you the "we" you have always wanted vs. a "her" (the wife). When that didn't work...

2. Sunk Cost Fallacy: "I can't believe you're doing this, we are so close to everything we want!" - this one is really powerful because confronting the sunk cost fallacy is really unpleasant for a lot of people. It means you get "nothing" for X number of years of "investment". Also makes you feel like a quitter and in western culture, very few things carry as much shame. When that didn't work...

3. Guilt Trip: "you're abandoning me in my time of need" - 'nuff said about this. Total fairness play. When that didn't work. 

4. Bluff Call/Acquiescence:  "if this is what you want...." this is actually a hard one because it means the manipulator is giving up his/her power. It is a gamble because it is a bluff call and you risk losing all power in the negotiation. When that doesn't work....

NOTE: all of the above is just good argumentation and most people are capable of it. There isn't anything nefarious here. Pretty much all breakups go through a pattern like this.

-------- post phone call ---------

5. Raise the Stakes: "there's no way I could come back from this..." This is part a reclamation of power when they don't respond to the bluff call. You also have to reject an important portion of the other person's position "call me when you've filed for divorce". It changes the location of the all the pieces on the board. It is also a secondary bluff call because it raises the stakes to such a point that you're likely to blink. When that doesn't work....

NOTE: this may or not be manipulation. This may just be a natural defensive move he needs to do to heal. The real manipulation is to come...

------- future --------- 

6. The Weighting Game:  Okay, now if he's smart he'll wait a prolonged period (2-3 weeks, no longer) of time for you to feel the weight of your decision. For the loneliness to kick in. You need to give the other person enough time for the strong emotions that triggered the break up to die down, the euphoria of standing up for yourself to wane and the novelty of "starting a new chapter" to become boring. Then you are left with that big empty hole in your life. If he waits more than 3 weeks then you actually start healing and become less vulnerable and open to him day by day. 

7. New Information: At the 2-3 week mark he'll contact you with "new information". My guess it is will be one of two things: 1) something to do with his divorce - probably, "she found a place, and is preparing to move out". If he does that he'll just let that sit there, almost rubbing your nose in it that if you had just waited everything you would have wanted would have come true. He'll wait for you to blink. Or 2) it will be a health scare. Maybe him, one of his kids or maybe his wife. It won't be something verifiable like "I had a heart attack" or "my daughter was in an accident". It will be something like a test result that will require additional testing. This is a two fold gambit: 1) to elicit sympathy from you and 2) to put your "dispute" in perspective. It will also make you feel good that he's confiding in you. Don't fall for it. Also note: he'll want to see you in person to deliver the new information - I can't tell you on the phone. He'll know that you'll be weaker in his presence. When that doesn't work...

8. New Deal: He may or may not do this. But he might propose a "new deal". Some new structure. Perhaps he starts paying for your rent/mortgage. Maybe gets you a place. Makes firm commitments. He'll cast it as a way of "starting over with you". But it is really the same old deal because nothing has really changed. It is all "future". This happened to me a while ago though it was heartfelt and not manipulation. But it is really hard to tell the difference. Look to see if anything "current" changes - e.g. his marital status or being "out" with you. If that doesn't work....

9. Strong Begging: The last card he has to play is begging. He may not do this depending on how strong he is. But if he does he'll position it as "I'm a big strong man who has been brought to his knees by you because you're so wonderful/amazing etc. Only you could humble me like this". Plays to your ego. Not really begging, more an flattery play.  If that doesn't work....

10. Weak Begging: This is the bastion of the truly weak. He's just playing the pity card. This is childhood begging. There is no play here except that you'll wear down and take him back for one more night in the hopes that that one night will spark something in you. This can go on and on and may even vacillate in to lashing our and harassment. If he gets here, just block and delete if you haven't already. From here on out, there isn't anymore manipulation. it is just emotional breakdown and he's truly dangerous at that time. 

Hope this helps! Let us know what happens!

 

cwt

Thanks for taking time to share all these with us. It's really helpful and insightful! Also, I'm not sure why when I read this post, @LilKatKat's exMM came to mind. Hope she'll see this too and gain some additional insight.

Edited February 15, 2020 by assertives

[Syre17]

10 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

I'll just say that his whining and lack of empathy and true concern for you are a real turn-off. Anyone has a right to end a relationship at any time, and someone who is being asked to wait for a married man who keeps punting cannot be expected to remain through thick and thin. And yet it's all about him . . . you left me on Valentine's Day, if you only you had waited, I can't make it past that . . . Where is his concern for what you're going through? Where is his respect for your needs and boundaries? (Of course, if he had these qualities in abundance, would he be having an affair?) Where is his perspective of what he's put you through for four years versus what you have proposed that is supposedly only for a few weeks? 

You met him when you were 22. You have a whole lifetime of healthy relationships to have in front of you. Do you think you're going to get that with this guy?

This is good and so true. A common theme with AP’s perhaps? I know this is in part what eventually changed my view of my former AP. I remember asking her once during an argument...”do you ever take my needs into account?” And “do you even care about what my needs are?” I think it goes without saying that you often can’t “rationalize” with the AP. At least that’s not what my experience was and it seems so from what I’ve read on here over the years. 

[Husbandssecret]

Thank you all for your input! It’s been very helpful. Today I’ve been struggling a lot with guilt. Guilt for wasting my time but then also I’ve been having guilt questioning if I made the right decision. I know deep down this is right for me and that there is a huge chance he’s nowhere close to ending his marriage, but I’m in my head today wondering what would happen if I would have hung on a little longer.

I think the problem is I keep comparing this to a healthy relationship. He just informed me his grandfather died. I know this can be a form of manipulation but I keep playing out the what if’s. What if his grandpa just died and I left him in the middle of a very terrible time? If it’s truly meant to be and he was really in love with me the way he says, is my leaving now forgivable? 
 

During our relationship, many times he would say that I focus too much on how the situation affects me and not enough on how it affects him and us. He said I tend to lean towards a negative perspective. I used to think he was so relaxed and wasn’t having as difficult time as me with it because he was better adapted, but now I wonder if it’s because he didn’t really care as much as I did. He just cared about limping it along longer. I’m struggling with what was real and what was tactics. It may not matter but that’s where I’m at right now...

[elaine567]

10 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

He said I tend to lean towards a negative perspective.

I wonder why?
4 years of being strung along with exactly nothing to show for it, may have had something to do with it maybe???

[Mrin]

Stay strong OP. You're in the Weighting Game right now. You just need to get through it.

[Syre17]

53 minutes ago, Mrin said:

Stay strong OP. You're in the Weighting Game right now. You just need to get through it.

OP, agree with Mrin on this. 

Its going to be TOUGH to make/keep the break, I’m not going to sugar coat it and say it isn’t or won’t be. Take it from me, someone who “relapsed” many many times. Just take it hour by hour, day by day, week by week. Every second is a small victory for you, and worth celebrating. If you stay the course, as hard as that may seem right now, you’ll eventually reach the “tipping point” where you begin to realize and see that your peace of mind, level of stress, inner peace and emotional well-being will be a whole lot better without the affair/AP. 

Agree with many of the other comments that if this guy really loved and cared about you, giving him the time and space to do what he needs in order to be with you, wouldn’t even be a concern of his.

To suggest or imply that you’re somehow “abandoning” him in light of his grandfathers death is nonsensical. Coming from him, who has dawdled you along all this time? Let me give you another perspective...think of it as role reversal... Two weeks after I left my wife, I unexpectedly lost my job, and then about three weeks after that, I lost my grandfather, who was my childhood hero and father figure for a good part of my life. Outside of the continued sneaking around, hiding our “relationship” and meeting up here and there, my former AP gave me NO support. In MY time of need, she was still with her H every night, taking their family vacations, blah blah blah... Please don’t be fooled by him and anything from him suggesting you’re the bad one here.  

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, Husbandssecret said:

During our relationship, many times he would say that I focus too much on how the situation affects me and not enough on how it affects him and us. 

Says the man asking you to put your life on hold for the last four years while you give him everything that he wants...

[BaileyB]

48 minutes ago, Syre17 said:

To suggest or imply that you’re somehow “abandoning” him in light of his grandfathers death is nonsensical. 

It is rather nonsensical - especially considering that his grandfather was probably of an advanced age and he has his wife and his entire family available for support. When he asks for your “support” what he is doing is laying on a fair amount of “guilt” hoping that can somehow encourage/convince/pressure you into assuming your position again... Don’t give him the satisfaction. 

Edited February 15, 2020 by BaileyB

[Husbandssecret]

All really great points!! I left this part out but when I initially met him, I was actually engaged. It was an awfully abusive relationship which left me vulnerable I’m sure to be in this situation but I ended my relationship before anything became romantic between us. I left with literally nothing to my name, a car full of belongings and $400 in my bank account. I was in the heart of working on my graduate degree and still managed to end my relationship. So I am strong enough to get through this and I need to remind myself that. 
 

I also need to remind myself that he’s not any closer to divorce than he was 4 years ago. He keeps swearing they’ve made progress that I can’t see but will see soon enough. Why do people do this? Don’t they realize at some point it all comes to a head? 
 

To go off what @Syre17 had to say, I experienced the same thing. 2 summers ago my father passed away very unexpectedly. I was incredibly close to him and talked to him multiple times a day. My AP was on vacation with his family for the 4th of July and I was at my fathers funeral. He consoled me with a few nice emails and phone calls. When I did see him in person he’d help me through some of the emotions but it wasn’t much. I brought that up to him when he said he’d never leave me in a time of need. He said that I was creating a narrative to fit what I was feeling right now And that I knew he was only on the trip for the kids. He often referred to my crying and asking him to move things along as me going down a “rabbit hole” and that I didn’t consider how my breakdowns were affecting the relationship. He also pointed out when I ended things that we often talk about how this situation is affecting me and we’ve only not discussed it recently because he’s been busy “dealing with the divorce arrangements”. Is it safe to say that in all of these situations if they don’t leave/make moves to leave early on they probably never intended to? I’m trying to wrap my head around being in love with someone who is this manipulative and quite frankly mean to me. It took me so long to see it. I would often recede my “rabbit hole” and apologize like I was the one who was wrong and blowing things out of proportion. 

[Syre17]

54 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

And that I knew he was only on the trip for the kids. 

One of my favorite excuses the AP will offer up... I was told the same thing. It was as though any time my AP needed a “free pass” or an excuse, it was often “I’m doing it for my daughter.” 

Let me ask...did he ever suggest to you that “you didn’t understand because you didn’t have kids...?” Im going to bet so. I say that because the AP will (as clearly evidenced here and many cases) pull out every card. And, whether they consciously do it, or not, or inherently know that they’re doing it, they’re often master manipulators in getting what they want and their needs met.

 

[Husbandssecret]

13 minutes ago, Syre17 said:

One of my favorite excuses the AP will offer up... I was told the same thing. It was as though any time my AP needed a “free pass” or an excuse, it was often “I’m doing it for my daughter.” 

Let me ask...did he ever suggest to you that “you didn’t understand because you didn’t have kids...?” Im going to bet so. I say that because the AP will (as clearly evidenced here and many cases) pull out every card. And, whether they consciously do it, or not, or inherently know that they’re doing it, they’re often master manipulators in getting what they want and their needs met.

 

He never said I didn’t understand because I was very quick to back off whenever the kids were talked about. I am someone who advocates for kids and he knew this with my rough upbringing etc that I was always all for kids having the best life and not being affected by parents’ drama. He did say the whole “I can’t believe I expedited ending my marriage for you, putting my kids at risk” and “I can’t believe you were someone I was going to spend the rest of my life with and introduce to my kids”. That second 1 hurt but it was in the heat of the breakup. I know it’s never okay to say hurtful things but I’ve found myself saying not nice things in the heat of the moment. Got a good laugh out of the expedited divorce thing because if this is the expedited version I’d hate to see the drawn out one. The fact is my parents had a nasty divorce With lots of court time and it didn’t take anywhere near 4 years. I want to say it took 1. Granted they didn’t do things amicably. His go to excuse for everything is that he’s doing it for the kids.

[Husbandssecret]

Just now, S2B said:

This relationship is also abusive!

i hope you see that.

i suggest counseling for you, so that you never, ever choose another anusive man again!

this guy is just.... terrible and mean!

Emailed my therapist today who is setting up a waitlist, should be in by the end of the month! I agree I definitely need to get to the root of why I’ve bounced from 1 unstable relationship to the next. 

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, Husbandssecret said:

I definitely need to get to the root of why I’ve bounced from 1 unstable relationship to the next. 

Yes, this is what often happens, vulnerable, damaged. wounded often abused women fall into the first arms offered and that can sometimes be the arms of a married man.
They overlook the "complications" as they so glad to find a nice man who is apparently non abusive. They dream he is "the one" and "love" quickly follows.
But as they have been "trained" to tolerate a load of bad behaviour, they put up with stuff a normal woman would run a mile from.  
This man has rejected you and rejected you for 4 long years and you are still there waiting for him.
That's not "normal" behaviour.
Move far away from him and seek the help you needed ;long before got involved with him.
Guys who abuse ruin perfectly good women,

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, Husbandssecret said:

I also need to remind myself that he’s not any closer to divorce than he was 4 years ago. He keeps swearing they’ve made progress that I can’t see but will see soon enough. Why do people do this? Don’t they realize at some point it all comes to a head? 

To be fair, you’ve bought this story for four years now. You’ve given him little reason to think that he couldn’t do this... his motivation to do such a thing, who knows - sex, ego, excitement? But he has done it if for no other reason than you have allowed it.

As to the fact that he’s not any closer to divorce - even if he was, you don’t want him anyway... You don’t want a man who can look a woman in the eye, sleep next to her in bed, travel with her and have sex with her - all while lying to her about the fact that he is also having sex with another woman. That’s not a good guy - he is no prize. Nor do you want a man who would manipulate and take advantage of a young woman the way he has taken advantage of your youth and vulnerability - again, that’s not a good guy. Not a man that you want to trust or build a life together...

Edited February 15, 2020 by BaileyB

[Husbandssecret]

That’s very true. I’ve watched how he manipulates her into believing he’s being faithful, and how good he has been at fooling her. It’s absolutely sill to think he’s not doing the same to me. When the chemicals are circulating in your brain you are so clouded and think you are different, the relationship is different. But the reality is that the person is the same in both relationships. And that fact he can do those things should be concerning to me rather than something I just push away as if it doesn’t exist. 

[BaileyB]

9 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

The fact he can do those things should be concerning to me rather than something I just push away as if it doesn’t exist. 

Bingo! You got it - and so many women struggle to accept this fact. They are so desperately wanting to win their man that they never stop to consider that the man they have been pining for, the man who lies to his wife and children every single day, is not actually a good man. Not a man worth “winning.”

Edited February 16, 2020 by BaileyB

[CloudyHead]

I didn't read all the responses and follow up to your original post.  I decided to end things with MM when I started focusing on me and not him.  I grew tired of the excuses that he was leaving his wife.  MM wasn't there for me during significant events in my life.  I felt I was putting my life "on hold" waiting for him.  Now it took me about 2 years to reach this point.  We still communicated but stopped meeting.  About 8 months later MM abruptly left his wife and drove to my house with suitcases.  Opening my door and inviting him back into my life was the  absolute worst mistake I've ever made.