Never thought I'd be here.

[Prudence V]

On 4/6/2020 at 11:10 PM, Husbandssecret said:

he often turns it around on me.

Anyone who cannot accept their own culpability is no good as a partner. Do you want to spend your life being blamed for everything that goes wrong? Do you want to be the “bad guy” always because he can’t own up to his own faults? My H’s xBW was like that. My xH was like that. I had a boss like that. It’s exhausting, and the gaslighting wears you down. 
 

Stand your ground. Insist on the time out. I’d go further - tell him you’ll only consider taking him back when he’s worked on his issues and has become acceptable partner material. Until then - let him be his BW’s problem. You aren’t beholden to him, and you’re free to choose who you invest your time and energies on. 

[Husbandssecret]

On 4/8/2020 at 6:47 AM, Prudence V said:

Anyone who cannot accept their own culpability is no good as a partner. Do you want to spend your life being blamed for everything that goes wrong? Do you want to be the “bad guy” always because he can’t own up to his own faults? My H’s xBW was like that. My xH was like that. I had a boss like that. It’s exhausting, and the gaslighting wears you down. 
 

Stand your ground. Insist on the time out. I’d go further - tell him you’ll only consider taking him back when he’s worked on his issues and has become acceptable partner material. Until then - let him be his BW’s problem. You aren’t beholden to him, and you’re free to choose who you invest your time and energies on. 

Thank you for your advice! I told him at the very least I need to see that he's moved out. He told me he took next week off to do so, so if it doesn't happen it's more reason for me to just be done completely. I have stopped seeing him completely since about 2 weeks ago. He's tried every line in the book since then.

1. "We need to do this together, we always face things better together. During a time like this we need each other more than anything."

2. "I think you're no longer in love with me. You're being cold and I think you are just trying to get over me."

3." Maybe I just need to let you free and let you move on since you are obviously no longer in love with me."

4."I can't believe you're doing this so close to reaching our goal of being with each other every night and at a time where I need you most." 

5. "If we go on a break it will ruin us. There's a way through this without ruining what is good which is our love."

6. my personal favorite "Your therapist is effing with your head" he's said that one multiple times. 

When I told him I wanted to take a break initially, I had said until the divorce papers have been filed. Then he told me that he can't petition for a divorce until they have been separated for a month-which I know is an absolute lie. The more I sit and reflect on how he has reacted with all of this, the more I've seen his true colors. He's willing to say anything to get me back to the OW position. I'm interested to see if he actually moves out next week like he said. I highly doubt it, but him not doing so will only make me more positive I'm making the right decsion by being done with this crap. 

[BaileyB]

You have a much higher tolerance for crap that I would have... perhaps you need to lower your bar, just a little. 

Desperate people, do desperate things, in desperate times. 

I doubt that he will ever leave. This man has shown you by his words and actions, he can’t possibly stand on his own two feet. He clings to her, or he clings to you. Truth be told, he would like very much to cling to both of you. Perhaps, even go back and forth between you - if he ever did leave his marriage.

If he does eventually move out, he needs to do it for the right reasons. That’s what you are trying to encourage, by insisting that he make his own decision. But, he is not capable of that right now. It’s not happening. You have essentially given him an ultimatum and he is currently acting out of desperation, under tremendous stress. There is no self determination here. If he did leave his marriage and move out of the marital home, the possibility that he would change his mind and return home would be very high.

Edited April 9, 2020 by BaileyB

[Allupinnit]

@Husbandssecret - I really dislike how he puts all of this guilt on you when it's already been FOUR YEARS of the same excuses from HIM.  He really can't think beyond his own selfish wants, forget that you've been patiently waiting for him all of this time.  Almost like he wants you to feel sorry for his ass, as laughable as that is.  "since you're obviously not in love with me" - do you know how manipulative that is?  That isn't love.  

I met my H four years ago.  Do you know how much life happens in that time?  We got married, bought a home, struggled through job loss, got a dog, watched his father suffer from cancer, etc.  He was also married before and has children - people divorce every single day (before he met me, that is).

What have you to show for the last four years with this man?  Your life is slipping away while he walks the fence between the life he signed up for and the life he's been promising you.  

I realize that you know this.  But if he's only moving out to placate you without filing there's a very strong chance he'll end up back home once he misses his wife and kids and the reality of your sitch hits him and the fantasy is over.  He doesn't need to take a week off work to move - he could have ordered a bed and packed a bag and been gone over a month ago and figured out the rest by now.  

Next week it will probably be something about the pandemic that prevents him from moving.  

[Prudence V]

17 hours ago, Husbandssecret said:

"We need to do this together, we always face things better together. During a time like this we need each other more than anything."

You need him:

* to do what he said he would. Not to come up with excuses for not doing so.

* to end the marriage the right way, walk away completely done, not keep his options open in case he decides to return. 

* to become an acceptable human being who behaves in acceptable ways to those he claims to love. Who doesn’t manipulate and gaslight. 

* to treat you with respect, not as a prop for his own wellbeing.

* etc. 
 

He needs you

* compliant, so he can use you to plug the void in his soul. 
 

Doesn’t seem much of an equal exchange, to me. 
 

[S2B]

He really said those things?

he really expected you to reconsider?

man you’ve been eating his crap sandwich for WAY too long!

keep doing what’s best FOR YOURSELF!

[pepperbird]

9 hours ago, Prudence V said:

You need him:

* to do what he said he would. Not to come up with excuses for not doing so.

* to end the marriage the right way, walk away completely done, not keep his options open in case he decides to return. 

* to become an acceptable human being who behaves in acceptable ways to those he claims to love. Who doesn’t manipulate and gaslight. 

* to treat you with respect, not as a prop for his own wellbeing.

* etc. 
 

He needs you

* compliant, so he can use you to plug the void in his soul. 
 

Doesn’t seem much of an equal exchange, to me. 
 

OP,

There can often be a lot of disagreement on here, but when almost everyone is warning you to take care, there's a good reason for that.

[BaileyB]

2 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

OP,

There can often be a lot of disagreement on here, but when almost everyone is warning you to take care, there's a good reason for that.

Prudence, that was a brilliant post. 

And pepperbird is correct. Which is why I say, you need to raise your bar when choosing a life partner (or lower it, as it relates to some of the crap he tries to pull). 

[Husbandssecret]

On 4/9/2020 at 4:29 PM, Allupinnit said:

@Husbandssecret - I really dislike how he puts all of this guilt on you when it's already been FOUR YEARS of the same excuses from HIM.  He really can't think beyond his own selfish wants, forget that you've been patiently waiting for him all of this time.  Almost like he wants you to feel sorry for his ass, as laughable as that is.  "since you're obviously not in love with me" - do you know how manipulative that is?  That isn't love.  

I met my H four years ago.  Do you know how much life happens in that time?  We got married, bought a home, struggled through job loss, got a dog, watched his father suffer from cancer, etc.  He was also married before and has children - people divorce every single day (before he met me, that is).

What have you to show for the last four years with this man?  Your life is slipping away while he walks the fence between the life he signed up for and the life he's been promising you.  

I realize that you know this.  But if he's only moving out to placate you without filing there's a very strong chance he'll end up back home once he misses his wife and kids and the reality of your sitch hits him and the fantasy is over.  He doesn't need to take a week off work to move - he could have ordered a bed and packed a bag and been gone over a month ago and figured out the rest by now.  

Next week it will probably be something about the pandemic that prevents him from moving.  

Ugh this makes me so sad thinking about how much time was wasted. You are so right. There was life happening all around me and I was at a standstill. I am standing true to myself and will not accept him back into my life unless he can prove to be worthy. Now I’m at the point of deciding if it’s too much water under the bridge or if I can forgive him if he really does make these changes. I don’t think any of this was out of bad intent. I’m not sure where I saw this but I really liked the statement that said something along the lines of “he  May not Have gone into it a cake eater but you made it easy and he became one”. That’s exactly what happened here. I should have stood up for myself a long time ago. 

[Husbandssecret]

22 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Prudence, that was a brilliant post. 

And pepperbird is correct. Which is why I say, you need to raise your bar when choosing a life partner (or lower it, as it relates to some of the crap he tries to pull). 

Yes thank you everyone for helping me keep strong. I’ve clung to the fantasy of a life with my AP for too long that it’s allowed me to overlook significant red flags and behavior that is never okay. He’s tried to get me to change my mind and go back on all of this because “this is all coming to an end, I promise”. But I’ve reminded him that his promises mean nothing to me as he’s never kept one. 

[Husbandssecret]

On 4/10/2020 at 8:55 AM, Prudence V said:

You need him:

* to do what he said he would. Not to come up with excuses for not doing so.

* to end the marriage the right way, walk away completely done, not keep his options open in case he decides to return. 

* to become an acceptable human being who behaves in acceptable ways to those he claims to love. Who doesn’t manipulate and gaslight. 

* to treat you with respect, not as a prop for his own wellbeing.

* etc. 
 

He needs you

* compliant, so he can use you to plug the void in his soul. 
 

Doesn’t seem much of an equal exchange, to me. 
 

I love how well this was said! THANK YOU!!

[Husbandssecret]

New update: she is leaving him this weekend according to him. Something feels off in all of this. Like I tell him to leave me alone until she leaves and then of course he’s been pestering to see me because it’s “so close”. I really do believe it’s happening this weekend. He claims he has finally seen what this has done to me and he needed it to be done because he wasn’t okay with hurting me like this anymore. My gut is telling me that SHE left because SHE couldn’t take him anymore and that this happened to line up perfectly for him so he could sell it as “see after realizing how much pain this was causing you I fixed it, I have proven that you are a priority”. I’m working with my therapist to learn to trust my gut more and I can’t shake this feeling that he’s selling me that he pushed it along when in reality it sounds like she’s been stacking up things to leave him for a while now. It’s weird, everything is finally seeming to come together finally for us to be together but I think that I don’t want him anymore. The way things dragged out and now how this is going down I think I’ve started to see the real him and how manipulative he has been the entire time. And even if he does leave I don’t think I want to be with him for that reason. Has anyone seen posts Or have personal stories about the AP leaving and the relationship not being what they thought it was? I need to go with my gut but at the same time fear of losing someone I have an amazing connection with is keeping me clinging onto him. 

[Allupinnit]

@Husbandssecret - I was once in an abusive relationship and after two years of knowing it wasn't right I was one day just done with all of it and walked away - never looked back.  I didn't even cry for him.  Maybe you're stronger than you think.  

You can't trust what he says because it's been four years of the same.  If you dump him, you can guarantee he'll be begging his wife to work things out.  These men cannot be alone and tend to waffle back and forth.

It's so crazy how stories like this tend to follow the same trajectory, with the few outliers here and there (but even then I think they deep down despise how everything came together).

Women's intuition is powerful and I think you are right - she found out.  

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, Husbandssecret said:

Has anyone seen posts Or have personal stories about the AP leaving and the relationship not being what they thought it was?

Why yes - in recent LS memory we had one where the MM left, moved in with the OW, and then went back to his wife. And another where an MM left, started a relationship with OW, and then started cheating on her. In fact, both those OP's contributed to your thread.

So, yes, I'd suggest you take all this with an EXTRA LARGE grain of salt.

Some people believe all MM's will lie to their OWs about everything. I think they're wrong, particularly at the start of an affair. But this guy? Nah...

My guess is your "gut feeling" is actually your rational brain kicking in and noting his past history, how inconsistent what he's saying and doing have been, and all the other factors, and realizing that you're just setting yourself up for serious hurt and betrayal of your own now that this has gotten "real". I'd say your rational brain is about 99.999% likely to be right in your particular case.

You mention a therapist. I'd suggest you consider exploring why you may have let this happen in the first place and  may be choosing unavailable men. You might discuss the concept of avoidant attachment with her and/or ask what she thinks "might be going on with you" if you haven't already.

FWIW, my advice would be to not only end this and find an available man (who isn't so likely to pull stuff on you), but also to have reasonable expectations going forward. The excitement of sneaking around, forbidden fruit, etc may be a big part of the "amazing connection" you feel. I think reality is that a strong but stable connection, along with realistic expectations and ability to agree to acceptable compromises while also ensuring your needs are met is what really drives many, if not most successful LTRs.

[BaileyB]

I can think of a couple of women who’s MM left their marriage to be with them, they bought homes together and lived together for a year or more, and the MM STILL went back to the wife. Some flip back and forth, back and forth... or want to go home and back to the way things were before, with the OW on the side. 

I can also think of a few women who “got their man” and then decided to end it, because by the time the MM left his marriage they had seen enough of his character to know that this man was not a good choice for a long term partner. 

I’d say the far more common would be that the OW finally get tired of waiting, and end the relationship when it becomes painfully clear that he’s not leaving his marriage... far more common. 

[elaine567]

Seems to me some younger guys who haven't been married very long may leave and set up another home with the OW, but older guys with long marriages are usually going nowhere unless there is a Dday and their wife throws them out. They are  never going to leave if they can help it.
Some can meet a very strong and determined OW and, she almost orders him to leave.
BUT most MM have too much to lose and if they can persuade the OW to stick around, then that is better than being seen as "the bad guy, the cad who split up the family...

[heartwhole2]

I think your gut is on the right track. If these men wanted to be the ones to end their marriages so they could be monogamous with the OW, the whole situation wouldn't exist. They start the affair because they want to and if they are emotionally invested and enjoying the idea of a future together, it all hinges on the wife ending things. A conflict avoidant person doesn't suddenly become decisive and take on the heat of ending a marriage.

This is assuming he's telling the truth about her leaving. It could all be a lie. Oh, she was definitely going to leave, but with the pandemic she just had to stay in the house, but really they're separated, believe him . . .

[Husbandssecret]

42 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

I think your gut is on the right track. If these men wanted to be the ones to end their marriages so they could be monogamous with the OW, the whole situation wouldn't exist. They start the affair because they want to and if they are emotionally invested and enjoying the idea of a future together, it all hinges on the wife ending things. A conflict avoidant person doesn't suddenly become decisive and take on the heat of ending a marriage.

This is assuming he's telling the truth about her leaving. It could all be a lie. Oh, she was definitely going to leave, but with the pandemic she just had to stay in the house, but really they're separated, believe him . . .

You’re totally right, I’m taking it with a grain of salt right now because I won’t believe it until I actually see it. That’s my thought process too. Why is this happening so fast now? If it was this easy and he wanted things to work with us why did it take almost 4.5 years for it to finally end? I can’t get past that. It’s like things were accelerated once I told him back at the end of January that we needed our relationship to move forward now or not at all. He claims that it was quick to push things forward now because he realized what this was doing to me but I am leaning towards it just being coincidence with the timing and that she’s fast tracked it because she’s finally done. I look back in the history of us and there’s multiple times (like others) that he kind of pulled away from me because his schedule got “busy” at the same time that he thought maybe she was catching on or maybe she was getting ready to finally divorce. It would be a few weeks of seeing him a lot less but then things would go back to normal. One would think that would have been the time to go ahead and end things but it’s almost like he pulled her back in. Keep in mind this has no evidence per se I’m more going off of theory here. 

[Husbandssecret]

4 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Why yes - in recent LS memory we had one where the MM left, moved in with the OW, and then went back to his wife. And another where an MM left, started a relationship with OW, and then started cheating on her. In fact, both those OP's contributed to your thread.

So, yes, I'd suggest you take all this with an EXTRA LARGE grain of salt.

Some people believe all MM's will lie to their OWs about everything. I think they're wrong, particularly at the start of an affair. But this guy? Nah...

My guess is your "gut feeling" is actually your rational brain kicking in and noting his past history, how inconsistent what he's saying and doing have been, and all the other factors, and realizing that you're just setting yourself up for serious hurt and betrayal of your own now that this has gotten "real". I'd say your rational brain is about 99.999% likely to be right in your particular case.

You mention a therapist. I'd suggest you consider exploring why you may have let this happen in the first place and  may be choosing unavailable men. You might discuss the concept of avoidant attachment with her and/or ask what she thinks "might be going on with you" if you haven't already.

FWIW, my advice would be to not only end this and find an available man (who isn't so likely to pull stuff on you), but also to have reasonable expectations going forward. The excitement of sneaking around, forbidden fruit, etc may be a big part of the "amazing connection" you feel. I think reality is that a strong but stable connection, along with realistic expectations and ability to agree to acceptable compromises while also ensuring your needs are met is what really drives many, if not most successful LTRs.

Yes agreed, I’ve started to process why I went after someone like him with my therapist and definitely have a “type”. This isn’t the first toxic relationship I’ve been in but somehow I had convinced myself for the longest time it was the SITUATION that was toxic, not him. Now I’m starting to really doubt that and you’re right, I think there’s a reason I’m not excited about this glimmer of hope he’s offered. There’s something off about the way this is happening and I need to listen to that. It’s honestly like he can’t be alone and she finally had it with him, is leaving, and now he’s finally clinging to me for dear life. If that’s really the case this is not what I want. 

[Poppy47]

On 2/14/2020 at 11:02 AM, S2B said:

And when you said he went on vacation with his wife and family - I was expecting that...

wasn’t that a huge blow enough to wake you up and realize this guy is a lying sack of poo?

sheez, a guy prepping to divorce doesn’t go on vacation with his wife! 
 

he will use you as his OW until YOU say NO MORE! He is never gonna end this... he’s got TWO women serving all his fantasies and needs!

you want something to happen? Get honest with his WIFE! She deserves to know what a schmuck she’s married to!

I agree with this. xMM always said he would never end his affair with me and he didn't? Why should he..... he was grabbing all he could from two women. He was really living the dream and the one he loved was himself. It wasn't me and it certainly wasn't his wife. We were merely tool to ensure his comfort and happiness.

It took me many years to get out of that relationship. I would end it and he would somehow break down my barriers and come back.  the longer you stay, the more difficult it will be to disentangle yourself. 

I am probably old enough to be your grandmother so I wasn't looking at starting a family or marriage. You, on the other hand, are young enough to want all that. You deserve to be loved and have someone just for yourself.

I would not even consider telling his wife. That can backfire all too easily on you . 

Run away as fast as you can.

Poppy.

 

[heartwhole2]

17 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

Yes agreed, I’ve started to process why I went after someone like him with my therapist and definitely have a “type”. This isn’t the first toxic relationship I’ve been in but somehow I had convinced myself for the longest time it was the SITUATION that was toxic, not him. Now I’m starting to really doubt that and you’re right, I think there’s a reason I’m not excited about this glimmer of hope he’s offered. There’s something off about the way this is happening and I need to listen to that. It’s honestly like he can’t be alone and she finally had it with him, is leaving, and now he’s finally clinging to me for dear life. If that’s really the case this is not what I want. 

And you've shared all the manipulative and mean things he says. It's like he tries to browbeat you into believing him or doing what he wants. Even if he's really leaving her for you, that doesn't make him a healthy partner.

[Husbandssecret]

16 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

And you've shared all the manipulative and mean things he says. It's like he tries to browbeat you into believing him or doing what he wants. Even if he's really leaving her for you, that doesn't make him a healthy partner.

Agree with that for sure! I’m trying to determine if he’s a good partner now. I feel so confused and like I’m trying to determine if this is even what I want anymore. Now that we’re at the “end” I actually feel more anxious than happy. And I think it’s because I know deep down he hasn’t treated me right at all in this. 

[BaileyB]

37 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

Agree with that for sure! I’m trying to determine if he’s a good partner now. I feel so confused and like I’m trying to determine if this is even what I want anymore. Now that we’re at the “end” I actually feel more anxious than happy. And I think it’s because I know deep down he hasn’t treated me right at all in this. 

If it doesn’t feel right, it’s not right. 

And, it shouldn’t feel right... way too much water under this bridge to simply move forward together, as if the relationship developed normally...

Best advice, if you do decide to stay with this man - get yourselves to couples counselling. And, both of you should be in individual counselling. The issues that brought you together and brought about the demise of his marriage will not go away just because he finds himself cooking dinner for one or sleeping alone in bed at night. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by BaileyB

[Husbandssecret]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

If it doesn’t feel right, it’s not right. 

And, it shouldn’t feel right... way too much water under this bridge to simply move forward together, as if the relationship developed normally...

Best advice, if you do decide to stay with this man - get yourselves to couples counselling. And, both of you should be in individual counselling. The issues that brought you together and brought about the demise of his marriage will not go away just because he finds himself cooking dinner for one or sleeping alone in bed at night. 

Exactly. He wants/acts as if this just picks up like a normal relationship but there’s so much to work through. I have talked about counseling as an option for us to do together and he’s on board but like I said I need to mull over if I want to be with him. Clearly we have a lot to work on and I think it might be better to start fresh and just focus on healing myself right now. 

[Prudence V]

On 4/16/2020 at 6:11 AM, Husbandssecret said:

Exactly. He wants/acts as if this just picks up like a normal relationship but there’s so much to work through. I have talked about counseling as an option for us to do together and he’s on board but like I said I need to mull over if I want to be with him. Clearly we have a lot to work on and I think it might be better to start fresh and just focus on healing myself right now. 

Indeed. And, if you do decide you want to, what the terms will be. He’s assuming it will be on his terms, the way it is now, with him calling the shots. You need to decide what your own terms would be - what you would want from him as a partner. Perhaps that’s feasible, perhaps not. But simply falling into a full time relationship just because the BW is no longer around isn’t a good option.