Blindsided

[Els]

15 minutes ago, Baman said:

An alternative to stay together miserable or divorce is a middle option: you could rent her a house close by, she can be part time mom and wife and you can be part time dad and husband. She gets a good level of freedom and autonomy without losing kids or husband. Kids dont get pulled apart and are remarkably resilient with truth and peace between mom and dad.

Or... they could do this in the same house, even. Given the way OP is ignoring all suggestions about childcare, and mentions that she takes "vacations" with the kids in tow, it sounds like she's responsible for the vast majority of childcare. It's not surprising that she needs a change, IMO - there are not many people who would be truly happy doing nothing in their lives except parenting.

[elaine567]

13 hours ago, Elswyth said:

 Goes on vacations all the time (usually with the kids).  

But that is not "freedom", nor I guess what she really wants to do.
Going on vacations with kids is often  highly stressful, especially on her own and when they are both under school age..

As for sex. I agree with @Baman 
Sex is a very poor barometer.
Woman can have sex with guys they love, guys they are luke warm about, guys they are not attracted to and guys they hate.
 

[Els]

36 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

But that is not "freedom", nor I guess what she really wants to do.
Going on vacations with kids is often  highly stressful, especially on her own and when they are both under school age..

Exactly, hence my quotation marks.

[elaine567]

47 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

Exactly, hence my quotation marks.

I was agreeing with you. 
For a woman who feels marriage and kids are becoming a burden she is increasingly not prepared to bear, then I guess a vacation with kids is no vacation at all, just more of the same.
 

[Fletch Lives]

10 hours ago, zig said:

Does it at all matter or mean anything that we are still having sex?  I always thought sex stopped before the ultimate end.

 - people don't have to be in love to have sex.

[Crazelnut]

OP, please tell us more about what your wife's life is like. SAHM? Do you fully participate in child rearing? Etc.?

[BettyDraper]

If your wife does all of the childcare, then I’m not surprised that she wants to run away. Your kids are still so young and they need lots of care. I’m not sure if you are a hands on dad or not though. 
 

Why don’t you join your wife when she is on vacation with the kids? 

[Caauug]

On 2/15/2020 at 2:52 PM, zig said:

Also she tells me that she's really selfish and feels like she is dragging me down.  Then she goes on to say how I would be better off without her so she thinks we should end the marriage if she can't get better.  I pointed out to her that it sounds like there is something wrong with me that she doesn't want to tell me.  It's like a g/f breaking up with a b/f in high school who says "it's not you it's me".

This looks like it has gilt of an affair smeared all over it. Saying she is a bad mother just backs that up also. Of coarse a "Good Mother" would never run around on her family. 

On 2/15/2020 at 2:52 PM, zig said:

So I ask if we can go to consoling together and she says no because it has nothing to do with me but it's all her.  She'll go to therapy herself and if things don't get better with her then she'll try couples therapy and if that doesn't work then it's over.

She wants therapy herself first to sort her feelings about the OM before having to open up to you in marriage counseling. Don't ever expect to get MC.

On 2/15/2020 at 2:52 PM, zig said:

I wanted to call her bluff the other day and offer to give her a new life.  I would take full custody of the kids and she can walk away and go travel the world but I didn't want to make a bad situation worse.  I really don't know what to do.  I'm seriously thinking about just going to consoling myself to help me navigate through this

I think she would love this, for a while anyway. She could be with her lover full time.

Protect yourself, see a good divorce lawyer or all the good ones in your area. Once you have talked to them they can not work for her. Get to know your rights and obligations for your area.

I guess if she is going to leave the marriage and break up the family it does not matter if there is an OM. It's over. Just don't get caught up trying to save the marriage if there is one and she refuses to give him up.

Actions speak loader than words. Look at her actions!!!

[pepperbird]

yeah, I'm, not buying into the overworked mother excuse. An awful lot of women ( and men) are full time SAH parents, and while they may be bored, frustrated, angry, lonely and daydream about leaving it all behind and running away, in reality, they wouldn't ever even consider it.

Your wife did, and expressed this view openly. To me that's very concerning. It's even more concerning that her feelings may harm your children. Just my opinion, but you should make couples therapy a non-negotiable. This goes beyond just her- her issues, whatever they may be, are imapcting you and your children. You have every right to demand that she get out in front of this and include you in the process. If she refuses, then she's made her choice. Your next stop should be at the lawyer's office.
( oh, and I could be really wrong, but I'm in the "she's cheating" camp too)

[MJJean]

Is this a recurring thing or something she said recently in an argument or after a rough day?

I was SAHM for 20 years. Last fledgling graduated High School this past summer. There were definitely many times I thought about being child free again. I got sick of the stress and the exhaustion and the endlessness of it all and just wanted to know what the hell adults without kids did with their lives because it sure seemed like it must be better than mopping  the kitchen while a toddler wipes snot on your shirt. Might have said it at the top of my voice a few times, but never seriously considered walking away from the DH, the kids, and the life we built.

[usa1ah]

On 2/15/2020 at 9:31 PM, zig said:

Does it at all matter or mean anything that we are still having sex?  I always thought sex stopped before the ultimate end.

Some stop, some don’t. 

[BettyDraper]

6 hours ago, MJJean said:

Is this a recurring thing or something she said recently in an argument or after a rough day?

I was SAHM for 20 years. Last fledgling graduated High School this past summer. There were definitely many times I thought about being child free again. I got sick of the stress and the exhaustion and the endlessness of it all and just wanted to know what the hell adults without kids did with their lives because it sure seemed like it must be better than mopping  the kitchen while a toddler wipes snot on your shirt. Might have said it at the top of my voice a few times, but never seriously considered walking away from the DH, the kids, and the life we built.

I'm sorry that you felt that way while raising your children. I think mothers should not be judged as harshly as they are for not always enjoying parenting. 

I'm glad that you never considered walking away. 

I'm wondering if the OP's wife is resenting her role as a SAHM. 

[pepperbird]

I've done the SAHM with three kids, and it's not always an easy row to hoe. I. might have felt sometimes how it would be nice to run away from it all, but that was just fleeting and not "real".

[Els]

2 hours ago, pepperbird said:

I've done the SAHM with three kids, and it's not always an easy row to hoe. I. might have felt sometimes how it would be nice to run away from it all, but that was just fleeting and not "real".

Yes, that is you. For some others it may be a more persistent feeling, especially when (from the looks of things) she seems to be doing it mostly alone.

Obviously, my thoughts are that she's made her bed and she needs to lie in it, same as the OP. Neither of them can really expect to be completely free anymore, when you make that sort of decision there's no going back. But I don't think it's inconceivable that her regrets re: kids could be real. It's not necessarily an "excuse", lots of people have the same regrets, they just don't say it IRL or in public. Also, if she is a SAHM, sending the kids to daycare so she can go out and work at least part-time, could be a potential solution. Not everyone is cut out to be a SAHP, in fact IMO the vast majority of people are not.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Elswyth

[pepperbird]

1 hour ago, Elswyth said:

Yes, that is you. For some others it may be a more persistent feeling, especially when (from the looks of things) she seems to be doing it mostly alone.

Obviously, my thoughts are that she's made her bed and she needs to lie in it, same as the OP. Neither of them can really expect to be completely free anymore, when you make that sort of decision there's no going back. But I don't think it's inconceivable that her regrets re: kids could be real. It's not necessarily an "excuse", lots of people have the same regrets, they just don't say it IRL or in public. Also, if she is a SAHM, sending the kids to daycare so she can go out and work at least part-time, could be a potential solution. Not everyone is cut out to be a SAHP, in fact IMO the vast majority of people are not.

I am just sick to death of parents who feel they need to grow up on their kid's time.

[Els]

4 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

I am just sick to death of parents who feel they need to grow up on their kid's time.

The only person suggesting that she actually abandon her kids is the OP. Most of us are just suggesting that the OP needs to do his share of parenting.

[BettyDraper]

50 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

The only person suggesting that she actually abandon her kids is the OP. Most of us are just suggesting that the OP needs to do his share of parenting.

To be fair, we don't know how much the OP helps with childcare. 

I think the parent who is at home should do most of the childcare and housework.  

That said, the presence of a SAHM doesn't mean that the fathers should do absolutely nothing. 80/20 is equitable if the mother is not working outside the home. 

[Els]

2 minutes ago, BettyDraper said:

To be fair, we don't know how much the OP helps with childcare.

Yes. But the OP has been ignoring all suggestions of such (while responding to other posts, so he was clearly around and had time to read/respond), so it's not an unfair assumption to make, especially after his last rant about how his wife is so "lucky" because she gets to take "vacations" with the kids.

Quote

That said, the presence of a SAHM doesn't mean that the fathers should do absolutely nothing. 80/20 is equitable if the mother is not working outside the home. 

I think it sounds like she probably doesn't want to be a SAHM.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Elswyth

[pepperbird]

28 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

Yes. But the OP has been ignoring all suggestions of such (while responding to other posts, so he was clearly around and had time to read/respond), so it's not an unfair assumption to make, especially after his last rant about how his wife is so "lucky" because she gets to take "vacations" with the kids.

I think it sounds like she probably doesn't want to be a SAHM.

I think it;s pretty unfair to assume she;ls overworked and gets no help from the OP.
As for vacations- it depends on what he means by that. If he means she gets to go off somewhere, kids in tow, and not get a single moment for herself, that's no vacation. been there, done that- I would rather have stayed at home. 🤣
If he means she takes a vacation. at one of those resorts where you drop off the kids at the child care area and go frig off for the day, then yes, she is getting a real vacation. It dies sound as if she does get some time on her own though, as the OP mentioned she "goes on vacations all the time (usually with the kids).". This would mean that she does have at least a bit of time away- many SAHP would give their eye teeth for a few days away.

Op, your partner really needs to figure this out sooner than later. It's not going to get any easier.
 

[zig]

On 2/16/2020 at 5:41 AM, Elswyth said:

Or... they could do this in the same house, even. Given the way OP is ignoring all suggestions about childcare, and mentions that she takes "vacations" with the kids in tow, it sounds like she's responsible for the vast majority of childcare. It's not surprising that she needs a change, IMO - there are not many people who would be truly happy doing nothing in their lives except parenting.

I do plenty of childcare.  My wife is involved in a few charity organizations and recently went back to school (two days a week) with hopes of starting a career.  I'm the one who watches the kids a lot of times when she's at school in the evenings, etc.  I do most of my own laundry and do the dishes every night.  I help out is the point.  With that said, yes my wife carries the main burden of childcare.  I work full time.  My salary alone provides us a comfortable income.  She went back to school because she wants to, not because we need the money.  I really don't think this is an issue of "me helping out more" she's just not happy being a mom for whatever reason.  I've tried to "step it up" many times before.  I'm always "stepping it up" more and more.  But every time I do it comes back full circle.  She may be happy and appreciative for awhile but then it's not good enough eventually.    

On 2/17/2020 at 3:54 PM, MJJean said:

Is this a recurring thing or something she said recently in an argument or after a rough day?

I was SAHM for 20 years. Last fledgling graduated High School this past summer. There were definitely many times I thought about being child free again. I got sick of the stress and the exhaustion and the endlessness of it all and just wanted to know what the hell adults without kids did with their lives because it sure seemed like it must be better than mopping  the kitchen while a toddler wipes snot on your shirt. Might have said it at the top of my voice a few times, but never seriously considered walking away from the DH, the kids, and the life we built.

 We have long periods that we get along great and then a blowout.  I'd say every 3-5 month we hit a tough spot but it's really hard to say.  One thing is for sure, and she mentioned this because I asked her.  We both agree that since she went back to school about a year ago is when everything really got out of whack.  I don't think either one of us know why, or at least I don't.

[zig]

10 hours ago, pepperbird said:

I am just sick to death of parents who feel they need to grow up on their kid's time.

Yes, I've seen it firsthand.  Some people make themselves a martyr for their kids.  The worst part is many of those kids grow up entitled and spoiled, not knowing how to cope with life when they grow up.   

10 hours ago, Elswyth said:

The only person suggesting that she actually abandon her kids is the OP. 

You're taking things out of context. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by zig
error

[zig]

9 hours ago, Elswyth said:

Yes. But the OP has been ignoring all suggestions of such (while responding to other posts, so he was clearly around and had time to read/respond), so it's not an unfair assumption to make, especially after his last rant about how his wife is so "lucky" because she gets to take "vacations" with the kids.

I think it sounds like she probably doesn't want to be a SAHM.

She takes vacations with and without the kids.  I was making a point that if her life is so bad then I don't know what a truly good life would look like.  Obviously one without me.

I'm not ignoring suggestions.  There have been a lot of posts in here and I can't reply to all of them.

Things have been much better the last couple days.  She's been her old self again.  I have an appointment scheduled with a marriage counselor on Friday.  It's just me going.  She still hasn't seen one herself which she said she was going to but I really don't think she will.  She is very stubborn and doesn't like people telling her what to do.  But that's her choice.

I told her I was going and she keeps asking me why.  It's a hard answer to give because really the reason I'm going is because of EVERYTHING.  Again, she assured me that I haven't done anything wrong and the problem isn't with me but with her.  That's fine, then I need to go in order to know how to help her more through her struggles.

And sorry to everyone who I haven't responded to.  I'm doing my best but my time is limited.

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by zig
error

[SincereOnlineGuy]

On 2/14/2020 at 10:52 PM, zig said:

So my wife and I got into an argument the other night over a toothbrush (yes a toothbrush)  She was using my toothbrush and I asked her not to because I thought that was gross.  That escalated and we ended up in a fight.

The next day I come home from work and she tells me that she thinks something is wrong with her and she needs to go see a therapist.  Basically she feels like she is over sensitive to every thing and gets offended too easily (she's like her dad who is extremely over sensitive to a fault).  Also she tells me that she's really selfish and feels like she is dragging me down.  Then she goes on to say how I would be better off without her so she thinks we should end the marriage if she can't get better.  I pointed out to her that it sounds like there is something wrong with me that she doesn't want to tell me.  It's like a g/f breaking up with a b/f in high school who says "it's not you it's me".  But she insists that it has nothing to do with me and tells me there is no other person in the entire world she would rather be married to.  Then goes on to tell me how she feels like she was never cut out to being a mom or a wife and that marriage for her was just a big mistake.  Sadly, she emphasized how much she doesn't like being a mom and wife and wished it was like it was in the old days when she could travel around and do whatever she wanted.

So I ask if we can go to consoling together and she says no because it has nothing to do with me but it's all her.  She'll go to therapy herself and if things don't get better with her then she'll try couples therapy and if that doesn't work then it's over.  I pointed out that she has children and the only thing that would be changing is me being out of the picture so it must be something with me.  She insists no.

So needless to say I feel completely helpless.  This is what bothers me the most out of all this.  She still hasn't gone to see a therapist and it has been a week.  I don't think she's going to either because now she is feeling a little better and will kick the can down the road.  If I say something to her she is going to get mad and say how I'm trying to tell her what to do.

I wanted to call her bluff the other day and offer to give her a new life.  I would take full custody of the kids and she can walk away and go travel the world but I didn't want to make a bad situation worse.  I really don't know what to do.  I'm seriously thinking about just going to consoling myself to help me navigate through this.

 

Look at it from a different angle.

 

Get up, go somewhere, put yourself in a clear-headed spot, with nothing pressing...  and think:

 

the only question that matters is:    "do you yourself want to be with this woman in 20,30,40 years?"

 

IF the answer is "yes"...    then recognize that she's directly or indirectly attempting to woo you into RE-acting somehow, and with such emphasis, that the whole relationship will blow-up.  And then make certain you don't get drawn-in by her moments of self-doubt.

A good pre-emptive move would be to go to a therapist/counselor together.   And I'm not sure that "asking"  for this is the best approach.

Of course you have no leverage by which to demand it of her, short of threatening to storm out of the relationship if she doesn't.   (but go back to the only question that matters, and reconcile your answer with that move, if you make such a move)

Still, take a more persuasive tone than to ask and beg for a trip to joint therapy.

You're not like the vast numbers of people who land here after they have reacted, and badly damaged their marriage.  You still have every path open to you, so maybe take the initiative yourself and make an appointment in a week or three for a joint therapy session centered on your marriage...  and inform her of when the appointment IS... and then go alone if she won't go...

Whether she's there or not, lay everything on the table and ask for advice or ideas on how to nip this in the early stages before your wife's self-doubt does any real damage.

 

(it all relates back to that only question that matters)

 

                                

[elaine567]

8 hours ago, zig said:

We both agree that since she went back to school about a year ago is when everything really got out of whack.  I don't think either one of us know why, or at least I don't.

My guess she is talking to other people at  school, other people with no kids, other people with kids maybe and she has concluded that she is not cut out to be a mother or she doesn't want to be a mother.
She is now unhappy with her lot, when she compares it to other people. The school thing has unsettled her.
How much child free time does she have to do coursework? I can't imagine trying to study with 2 kids under 5 under my feet all the time.
Is she struggling with the course?
OR
Maybe her career ambitions are soaring and she knows her kids and you perhaps will hold her back.
Maybe other students have plans to travel far and wide to gain job experience, and she will be stuck at home... 
She probably now realises the time for education was when she was young free and single, not when she is saddled with small kids...
Hopefully she will settle down and accept her lot and make the best of it. 
 

[schlumpy]

I have to agree with Elaine. She's listening to other people at school talk about how much fun they having being single. It's a seductive fantasy. Has she made any noises about an open marriage?