What have I done? I am so hurt.

[mark clemson]

I don't think it's an actual known, statistically confirmed quantity. There is reason to believe it's rare as @JTSW points out. I've seen estimates given here at it being around 2% of affairs that go on to full open LTRs, which may be a reasonable ballpark. Despite the degree of romantic intensity there are many headwinds to survival: divorce costs, social backlash, "buyer's remorse", a divorced man (or woman) suddenly having lots of options, kids hating the former AP now SO for "breaking up the family", etc.

[JimmyNorth]

18 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I don't think it's an actual known, statistically confirmed quantity. There is reason to believe it's rare as @JTSW points out. I've seen estimates given here at it being around 2% of affairs that go on to full open LTRs, which may be a reasonable ballpark. Despite the degree of romantic intensity there are many headwinds to survival: divorce costs, social backlash, "buyer's remorse", a divorced man (or woman) suddenly having lots of options, kids hating the former AP now SO for "breaking up the family", etc.

This is true. I think in the end if the MM TRULY loves the AP as much as she does then you might see a good outcome.

One key ingredient here would be that the MM would have to be really looking for a new LTR and not just some supplementary side piece. The MM would have to genuinely share the same future vision as the AP. 

[Starswillshine]

1 hour ago, JimmyNorth said:

This is true. I think in the end if the MM TRULY loves the AP as much as she does then you might see a good outcome.

One key ingredient here would be that the MM would have to be really looking for a new LTR and not just some supplementary side piece. The MM would have to genuinely share the same future vision as the AP. 

There are other things that cause the affairs turned relationships to fail. 

I spoke about it in the post above. Affairs are extremely intense. Once everything is out in the open and a true relationship is formed, that intensity can fade a good bit. And any long term relationship has some fade to its intensity anyway. Add to the fact that the previous married person likely has not worked on the issues that made him/her cheat. And this loss of intensity can be questioned as maybe this relationship isnt fulfilling me, etc. Bascially, the problems seem to not really go away once the marriage is dissolved which really speaks to it being a personal issue and not a martial. 

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, hissecret said:

How is it that people are quick to defend the "poor wife" who is to say she hasn't contributed to what is going on in their home, relationship, etc..I do not believe in the "poor anyone"

It is true that, in some case, the BS may be a difficult partner or has otherwise contributed significantly to the WS's dissatisfaction in the marriage. However, that doesn't make cheating "OK" (ethical). If you think about it logically, cheating is not a fair "punishment" or a reasonable response to issues in a marriage. Those issues, whatever they may be, should be addressed within the marriage and the couple's "practices" (for lack of a better word) should change. IF they really can't work through the issues, they should divorce. Then either partner can seek new folks. That's what's actually fair and reasonable, logically.

In practice, as usual, people make poor decisions, avoid difficult work, and look for shortcuts to happiness or to "fix" their situation. So they end up taking the "garden path" of an affair while not ending their marriage. So we tend to see a lot of activity on this and the Infidelity board. It's also true that in some cases, people do "slip into" an affair via a friendship that becomes an EA then a PA. So it's not always the case they had anything needing "fixing". But it is true in those cases that those involved (WS, AP) could have made different, more ethical decisions.

[Tristian]

As has become my standard warning in this forum: This is the OM/OW forum, everyone knows what is discussed here. If you find that topic distasteful or have a hard time remaining civil then this is not the place for you.

Let's save the bickering for another venue and keep our replies focused on the OPs situation.

[pepperbird]

OP,

In your shoes, if I were to get involved on a full time basis with this guy, then couples counselling with him would be a non-negotiable. He's already showing you that he can and will cheat, at least with his current mind set. Let's be honest, any relationship, no matter how good it may be, will go through tough times. Counselling could help him find better ways of dealing with that and give you some peace of mind as well. Consider it the "price" of the rleationship.
 

[hissecret]

On 3/9/2020 at 5:45 PM, pepperbird said:

The truth is no one knows what's going on in this guy's head but him. The only real truth anyone knows about him is that he finds cheating on a relationship partner to be an acceptable choice for him. If he didn't , he wouldn't be doing it.

op, you know yourself and what you are looking for. If you  think he's the one for you, you could be right. Protect your heart and don't make excuses for him just because he's married. If he does things you wouldn't tolerate in a single person but you will with him because he's married, that's not good. Set your boundaries and keep them. Don't let him convince you to push them back.

"..he finds cheating on a relationship partner to be an acceptable choice for him. If he didn't , he wouldn't be doing it."

We have actually talked about this. Everything really isn't black and white. He wasn't looking for me...AT ALL. He was fully committed to being unhappy in his marriage. 40% of his marriage is good because he has learned to just shut up and take it for what its worth with someone he is not compatible with, let her do as she wishes, etc because for the most part he can tune her out due to how he just likes PEACE, but the other 60% is unhappy because who doesn't want a connection with someone, compatibility, chemistry, intimacy, laughter, a romantic interest into someone? He has been OK with his life, as long as the kids are happy, he has a stable job, and a home, he was ok with it all. Again fully committed to being unhappy bc his happiness didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. And then he meets me...he didn't pursue, I didn't pursue...it literally happened to where we started chatting and chatting alot...similar childhoods, views on things, same views on child rearing, same views on worldly topics, household roles, gender roles, the list can go on..we shared intimacy before it became physical... this really isn't a "acceptable" choice to him, he again chose unhappiness but here I am, and he still has conflict with it bc he feels he should just be unhappy. .In his words, he is in love with his children and of course he loves her because she has been a friend for many years but he just doesn't see her as a romantic partner..platonic at best...

It really is crazy how the universe works...we curse the heavens because we both question why we didn't meet 20 years ago. But as I tell him, I had to go through my long term relationship and he had to go through his in order for us to appreciate each other I feel...I was young when I entered that relationship, just as he was..we didn't even know ourselves, and we both conformed to our partners and what they wanted and how they wanted it. When we met, we both could be our true natural selves instantly...that is something we cannot deny..and something we both longed for..

And yes @pepperbird! Not tolerating any bullcrap! He doesn't get to make any excuses. One thing I can say, we both put it all on the table and while some truths we may not want to hear, we say them anyways. It's truly refreshing. He is STUBBORN but so am I. lol. But we both have boundaries that each are aware of and we don't try to compromise them for each other or anyone, he knows I am not for the * and I know he isn't either..I know this is very unconventional and I know the masses and what they think...but again the world just isn't black and white..sometimes there are polka dots, stripes and asymmetrical lines that are just as beautiful.. @Prudence V  @Hip Pocket knows exactly what these patterns are and they've embraced them..Appreciate you ladies!  And appreciate everyones outlook and opinion on this board. Constructive discussions I am always up for! 

Edited March 13, 2020 by hissecret

[hissecret]

On 3/10/2020 at 1:28 AM, JimmyNorth said:

I’m gonna say that there is a possibility that this MM truly wants the OP. An easy way to test it is to threaten MM that you want to take a break from him and start exploring other options like dating other men. Watch what happens.....if he acts like a BS, then that’s a start in regards to him taking you seriously. 

I know that the OP may very well view this MM as her true match, soulmate or life partner. And it’s possible that this MM may view her the same way. I know it’s rare, but there are real life examples here of MM’s who go on to live a real relationship with their AP!

So, I’m not saying that we should cheer on OP to pursue a bad outcome with this MM, but maybe...just maybe there could be something real going on here!

Hi I @JimmyNorth! So funny, we actually had this discussion the other day! We were talking about taking a break. Because of the event that took place, maybe we should just break for a little bit but not a heavy break just instead of seeing each other 5 times out a week, we will trickle it down to 3, etc. We talked about a "do not ask do not tell policy" and he flipped his wig. LOL!

I really don't want him leaving his life for me. This (us) is so fresh! If he ever leaves, I want him to leave for himself because he finally chose to be happy and live a fulfilling life. I am not giving him any ultimatums, etc. I want him to keep his family unit in tact. I have been the unhappy person for years, and it takes alot to leave. You go through many mental games with yourself, weighing pros and cons, it is a messed up thing to go through. And that is something he needs to prepare for. At the end of this all, I am his friend. And putting on my friend hat, I don't want him to do anything drastic. I also think that is the difference between these relationships I have been reading on these boards. Most women that have entered these affairs, and men too, aren't friends. Friendship is the basis of anything REAL in my opinion. Because instead of acting out on feelings, you are able to act out in friendship and see both sides of the coin...maybe this is just my way of thinking lol @JimmyNorth reading your story, it seems like you and your now girlfriend are friends! And that to me is beautiful. So yes while she was "waiting " for you, she also was your friend. Speaks volumes! So happy for you!

And it is definitely real  

[hissecret]

On 3/10/2020 at 9:16 AM, JimmyNorth said:

This is true. I think in the end if the MM TRULY loves the AP as much as she does then you might see a good outcome.

One key ingredient here would be that the MM would have to be really looking for a new LTR and not just some supplementary side piece. The MM would have to genuinely share the same future vision as the AP. 

Absolutely! In my situation, he isn't and wasn't looking for a side piece. He really wants a partner he is compatible with and can create memories with in this other phase of life! And my sentiments exactly!

[mark clemson]

7 hours ago, hissecret said:

...but again the world just isn't black and white..sometimes there are polka dots, stripes and asymmetrical lines that are just as beautiful.. @Prudence V  @Hip Pocket knows exactly what these patterns are and they've embraced them..Appreciate you ladies!  And appreciate everyones outlook and opinion on this board. Constructive discussions I am always up for! 

 

While your point about variance is true and you are an adult and will make your own choices, it's worth pointing out that many folks aren't content with the role of OW long term. And having a former AP partner marry you requires the ending of at least one, often two, marriages, with all of the accompanying stress, personal upheaval, emotion, etc. My point is we see a lot more lives being blown up than happy endings around here. You should be aware of that.

You say your MM loves his kids. How do you suppose they will feel about you if/when they find out your MM was cheating on their mom with you months/years? If you don't plan on being the OW forever and wish to one day be together openly, you're going to have to address that. It seems like a tough road.

[Prudence V]

10 hours ago, mark clemson said:

You say your MM loves his kids. How do you suppose they will feel about you if/when they find out your MM was cheating on their mom with you months/years?

This depends on so many things, including the ages of the kids, their relationships with both their parents, what they’ve witnessed in the marriage, etc. as well as what they see of the “new” relationship and how it affect them (does their father sideline them and give all his attention to his GF, for example). Anyone who has ever step-parented is up against this, whether or not there was a R before the parents’ D. 

[BaileyB]

8 hours ago, Prudence V said:

This depends on so many things, including the ages of the kids, their relationships with both their parents, what they’ve witnessed in the marriage, etc. as well as what they see of the “new” relationship and how it affect them (does their father sideline them and give all his attention to his GF, for example). Anyone who has ever step-parented is up against this, whether or not there was a R before the parents’ D. 

True, it depends on many things. But when a “new” relationship starts out on a “bad” foot, it can make the adjustment process for everyone involved sooooooo much more difficult. This I know, from personal experience. So, let’s not try to normalize the experience too much - it’s very different. 

[mark clemson]

@Prudence V while you have a point about step-parenting, it's certainly not the case that "anyone who has ever step-parented" was in an affair with the main parent and could plausibly be viewed (possibly incorrectly) as "the reason my parents divorced".  I would imagine that makes things much more difficult.

[Hip Pocket]

22 hours ago, mark clemson said:

@Prudence V while you have a point about step-parenting, it's certainly not the case that "anyone who has ever step-parented" was in an affair with the main parent and could plausibly be viewed (possibly incorrectly) as "the reason my parents divorced".  I would imagine that makes things much more difficult.

I witnessed my father’s affair developing and how it hurt my mother but as a smart kid with eyes wide open I could see that he stepped out because the M was not perfect. As much as I adored my mother she was not perfect and neither was my father. Kids who take sides in such matters are very egocentric and if that’s encouraged by the betrayed partner they are doing their kids no favors. 
 

And I didn’t see either parent as a “main parent”. 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, Hip Pocket said:

I witnessed my father’s affair developing and how it hurt my mother but as a smart kid with eyes wide open I could see that he stepped out because the M was not perfect. As much as I adored my mother she was not perfect and neither was my father. Kids who take sides in such matters are very egocentric and if that’s encouraged by the betrayed partner they are doing their kids no favors. 
 

And I didn’t see either parent as a “main parent”. 

Kids are egocentric, naturally. Because they are children. Young children are egocentric.

They also have a very black and white way of looking at the world. There is right, and then there is wrong. We teach them to be kind. Love your family. Treat them with respect. Be honest. And if you hurt just someone, apologize.   

Children are not as skilled as adults in justifying and excusing poor decisions and hurtful behaviour.

Children love their parents. They want them to be happy. They want their family to be together. If one parent does something that is hurtful to the other parent, they feel that pain as their own. In many ways, they often want to protect the parent who has been hurt. Particularly young children, older children will be more skilled in justifying the situation - ie, my father hurt my mother but that is “understandable” because neither parent is perfect, the marriage was not perfect.

Again, let’s not say that children are egocentric if they take sides when one parent is engaging in behaviour that is hurtful to the other parent, and by extension, the whole family. If anyone is acting in a selfish and egocentric way, it is the parent who has turned away from the marriage, away from the family. 

Edited March 15, 2020 by BaileyB

[pepperbird]

On 3/14/2020 at 2:01 PM, mark clemson said:

@Prudence V while you have a point about step-parenting, it's certainly not the case that "anyone who has ever step-parented" was in an affair with the main parent and could plausibly be viewed (possibly incorrectly) as "the reason my parents divorced".  I would imagine that makes things much more difficult.

I always felt bad for my brother's second wife. their relationship started out as an affair, and his kids ( both when they were small and even as adults) never let the two of them forget that. they hated her. I don't think that was fair of them to blame his actions all on her, but it was what it was.

[pepperbird]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Kids are egocentric, naturally. Because they are children. Young children are egocentric.

They also have a very black and white way of looking at the world. There is right, and then there is wrong. We teach them to be kind. Love your family. Treat them with respect. Be honest. And if you hurt just someone, apologize.   

Children are not as skilled as adults in justifying and excusing poor decisions and hurtful behaviour.

Children love their parents. They want them to be happy. They want their family to be together. If one parent does something that is hurtful to the other parent, they feel that pain as their own. In many ways, they often want to protect the parent who has been hurt. Particularly young children, older children will be more skilled in justifying the situation - ie, my father hurt my mother but that is “understandable” because neither parent is perfect, the marriage was not perfect.

Again, let’s not say that children are egocentric if they take sides when one parent is engaging in behaviour that is hurtful to the other parent, and by extension, the whole family. If anyone is acting in a selfish and egocentric way, it is the parent who has turned away from the marriage, away from the family. 

Kids are often a whole lot more savvy than what their parents give them credit for. Like you said, they are also very black and white thinkers. Family counselling could be helpful, but many times, the kids will form their own opinions, and this has nothing to do with what their parents say/don't say about their spouse.

[Prudence V]

On 3/15/2020 at 4:32 PM, BaileyB said:

If anyone is acting in a selfish and egocentric way, it is the parent who has turned away from the marriage, away from the family. 

Turning away from the marriage is not the same thing as turning away from the family. There are many stories on these boards of partners (usually the H) feeling abandoned when the other partner (usually the W) turns away from the marriage and focuses all their attention on the kids. They are hyper-focused on “the family” at the expense of the marriage. They experience real identity change and see themselves as “parent” rather than “partner”. 
 

This sometimes happens during an A, too. The WS turns away from the BS, but may become hyper-focused on the kids, spending all their discretionary time with the kids but avoiding the BS. 

[hissecret]

On 3/13/2020 at 12:53 PM, mark clemson said:

While your point about variance is true and you are an adult and will make your own choices, it's worth pointing out that many folks aren't content with the role of OW long term. And having a former AP partner marry you requires the ending of at least one, often two, marriages, with all of the accompanying stress, personal upheaval, emotion, etc. My point is we see a lot more lives being blown up than happy endings around here. You should be aware of that.

You say your MM loves his kids. How do you suppose they will feel about you if/when they find out your MM was cheating on their mom with you months/years? If you don't plan on being the OW forever and wish to one day be together openly, you're going to have to address that. It seems like a tough road.

He absolutely adores his children. They are with him the majority of the time to the point you would think he is a single father. I don't know how they will feel depending but I would hope for positive thoughts. While yes he may be seeing me and married to their mother, his loyalty has remained to his family unit. And if his children were to find out, I am sure he would address it and explain to them as best as possible. My hope is for them not to find out that way but sometimes life happens in a sequence we wish could be different. They do know me, but they do not know me as what I am. A bridge we will cross if we ever cross it at all! 

[hissecret]

I did not seek to be a OW. He did not seek another relationship outside of his unhappy marriage. It really just happened. We are taking it day by day,  I am not giving him any ultimatums and yes while its very unconventional, it is what it is right now. My initial inquiry was probably like most on here but those details played out. And that was our first hiccup so it really was about how he handled conflict resolution which is to shut down. It had nothing to do with a DDay, or trying to get out, etc. 

I have read other topics within this realm of OW/OM and I do see lots of responses based on judgement and not looking at all sides of the coin. Some married men do seek side pieces, absolutely. But some men are yearning for a real relationship and it really is HARD to leave the current marriage that they are in. They are unhappy, their loyalty is rooted within the family structure but not the wife. While they may be grateful towards her and love her as someone that has been in their life (history & comfortability) and the mother of their children, they still seek all the good parts a relationship can and should be. Compatibility, intimacy, respect, appreciation, etc...those lack in these marriages and again because the mm has that deeply rooted loyalty within the family structure, it just isn't that easy to leave. I do feel there should be some compassion there. Just my thoughts! 

Edited March 17, 2020 by hissecret

[pepperbird]

8 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Turning away from the marriage is not the same thing as turning away from the family. There are many stories on these boards of partners (usually the H) feeling abandoned when the other partner (usually the W) turns away from the marriage and focuses all their attention on the kids. They are hyper-focused on “the family” at the expense of the marriage. They experience real identity change and see themselves as “parent” rather than “partner”. 
 

This sometimes happens during an A, too. The WS turns away from the BS, but may become hyper-focused on the kids, spending all their discretionary time with the kids but avoiding the BS. 

🤣🤣🤣
In all the stories on  here, I have yet to hear this one.

Edited March 17, 2020 by pepperbird

[pepperbird]

4 hours ago, hissecret said:

I did not seek to be a OW. He did not seek another relationship outside of his unhappy marriage. It really just happened. We are taking it day by day,  I am not giving him any ultimatums and yes while its very unconventional, it is what it is right now. My initial inquiry was probably like most on here but those details played out. And that was our first hiccup so it really was about how he handled conflict resolution which is to shut down. It had nothing to do with a DDay, or trying to get out, etc. 

I have read other topics within this realm of OW/OM and I do see lots of responses based on judgement and not looking at all sides of the coin. Some married men do seek side pieces, absolutely. But some men are yearning for a real relationship and it really is HARD to leave the current marriage that they are in. They are unhappy, their loyalty is rooted within the family structure but not the wife. While they may be grateful towards her and love her as someone that has been in their life (history & comfortability) and the mother of their children, they still seek all the good parts a relationship can and should be. Compatibility, intimacy, respect, appreciation, etc...those lack in these marriages and again because the mm has that deeply rooted loyalty within the family structure, it just isn't that easy to leave. I do feel there should be some compassion there. Just my thoughts! 

Sorry, but this is just a huge excuse for mm.
Look, I get it, As a BS, I did it too. I made excuses of my husband, and that was a huge mistake. It put me in a place where I was aying to him I was okay whagt what he was doing because I sort of accepted it, or at least I accepted his excuses.

I don;t know this guy-I only know what you say about him. The one sure thing you do know about him is that he sees cheating as an acceptable means to an end, and you have taught him that you will accept this. You're also trying to blame his wife for his choices, although you try and word it otherwise.
If you want a relationship with this guy, you will have to accept some things about him, and one of these is that he is capable of cheating. he sees it as acceptable-he wouldn't do it otherwise.  That doesn't mean once a cheater always a cheater, but it does mean you need to be careful.

 

[Prudence V]

18 hours ago, pepperbird said:
In all the stories on  here, I have yet to hear this one.

The Guidelines prohibit me linking to particular threads, but if you take a look they’re there. In the MLP forum, not hard to find at all. It’s usually the H complaining that the W is denying him attention and focusing only on the kids. The responses are invariably that he suck it up and do the same. 
 

In the OP’s case, it does seem that her BF is close to his kids, perhaps even being the primary parent. 

[hissecret]

19 hours ago, pepperbird said:

Sorry, but this is just a huge excuse for mm.
Look, I get it, As a BS, I did it too. I made excuses of my husband, and that was a huge mistake. It put me in a place where I was aying to him I was okay whagt what he was doing because I sort of accepted it, or at least I accepted his excuses.

I don;t know this guy-I only know what you say about him. The one sure thing you do know about him is that he sees cheating as an acceptable means to an end, and you have taught him that you will accept this. You're also trying to blame his wife for his choices, although you try and word it otherwise.
If you want a relationship with this guy, you will have to accept some things about him, and one of these is that he is capable of cheating. he sees it as acceptable-he wouldn't do it otherwise.  That doesn't mean once a cheater always a cheater, but it does mean you need to be careful.

 

Hi pepperbird! He really doesn't see cheating as an acceptable means to an end. He has been very conflicted in it. It was something that he wasn't looking for and as we discuss, he does try to be a good person but in this particular instance, he has been unhappy for so long, and what was happening between us was something he couldn't deny. He has known I had reservations from the start. It is not so easy to say that "I accept this".

I am NOT blaming his wife for his choices. Him marrying her because he thought it was the right thing to do because she had his child and she didn't want her to be a "single mom" like his mother. Him marrying her because, "he knew her and was comfortable with her". Like I told him, he married her for the wrong reasons in the first place. So, while yes for a time he was in love with her, it would have only lasted so long and what you truly want would eventually come to the forefront and unhappiness will happen (which it did). He settled from the beginning honestly and so did she. She waited for him to choose her again and eventually he did because, she was the last one standing. Not really a great foundation for a marriage. But he again still sees her as friend and family in which he should!  So now while he remains loyal to the "family unit" he also has chosen to do and be with who/what makes him happy. That is not a good place to be in and he knows it just as I know it.

Things aren't just so black and white. 

[elaine567]

34 minutes ago, hissecret said:

He has been very conflicted in it.

Sorry to tell you but they almost invariably are...
He is not going to sit on the fence between you and his wife and tell you he feels great about it, is he?