Is my behavior justified?

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, alphamale said:

indeed basil67, otherwise we would have a #metoo violation

Probably not, but
"Ugh, get off me. What on earth do you think you are doing?"
doesn't tend to do a lot for the self esteem... 

[basil67]

The #metoo violation would be if he had her pinned against the wall and wouldn't stop when she tried to duck out of the way.   Dude, you must be an intense first kisser for your mind to have gone here. 

[preraph]

The root of the problem is that guys assume a woman wouldn't be spending time with them unless they were interested romantically, and they assume that because that's how men are, but it's not fundamentally how women are.  They'll be just friends with guys they have no romantic interest in at all just because they like to have friends.  Men seem to mostly have the end goal of getting sex.  

However, what we've heard about this one, she needs better boundaries.  Now, I have seen a lesbian cuddle up under a blanket with a straight guy friend, but it must have been torture for him. They are still friends though.  She might be too reserved to say no to holding hands or cuddling, but again, she needs better boundaries and to grow a spleen if that is the case.  

 

There's also the remote possibility she is asexual or gay and is still all confused about it and trying to go through the motions.  

Edited January 11, 2020 by preraph

[elaine567]

I think some girls go down the cuddle buddy/best friend/platonic route because they are not quite ready to get into proper relationships with men.

[preraph]

I call that playing house.  Some girls like to pretend they have a boyfriend and put on a show to their friends.  But that should be mainly school girls, honestly.  

[alphamale]

8 minutes ago, preraph said:

I call that playing house.  Some girls like to pretend they have a boyfriend and put on a show to their friends.  But that should be mainly school girls, honestly.  

trust me preraph, I've dated women in their 30s and 40s who still think they are "playing house"

[The Outlaw]

I think it'd probably be best to just try to avoid her completely. It just sounds off. I don't know all the details, but anyone that would run from you like that isn't ever a safe bet for anything. 

[rjc149]

Classic case of what happens when her safe, secure cuddle buddy tries to break out of the friend zone. It puts her in an awkward situation and costs her a comfortable source of validation. 

We've all been through this, dude. It teaches us important life lessons, so look at it as an opportunity to grow and become a more attractive man. 

If you're attracted to a girl, flirt with her, escalate, and make your move quickly. And by making your move, don't ask her. Just do it. She will be giving you the signs and signals if she's receptive to it. Asking her to kiss her may be chivalrous and gentlemanly, but being over accommodating, sensitive, gentle and respectful will get you nowhere with women. I'm assuming you're young. At your age, you'll be watching a lot of really pretty girls, a lot of your crushes, going home with loud-mouthed, disrespectful douchebags who hook up with tons of girls and treat them like sh-t before you finally get it -- nice guys finish last. That does NOT mean you should be a douchebag. But you need to become more of an assertive alpha male who goes after what he wants, not spend 2 months being a girl's little puppy dog. 

Live and learn brother. 

[ChatroomHero]

1 hour ago, preraph said:

I call that playing house.  Some girls like to pretend they have a boyfriend and put on a show to their friends.  But that should be mainly school girls, honestly.  

That's it entirely. If a girl is being friendly and knows you are interested, they'll give signals. Like mention other guys they are interested in and say things in a way to let you know they will not actually date you like when you ask them out and they say, "sure, I'll see what friend x,y and z are doing that night". When you're blinded by interest you might miss it but usually they make it pretty clear even if they do it in more subtle ways.

Others literally make it seem like you are dating them and play BF/GF and act exactly as someone who was deeply interested in dating you would act. Frankly if a woman friend zones you by pretend dating you and then cries when you tell her you are interested, she is selfish and knows she is using you and screwing with her emotions but is ok with it because you fill some gap for now. For her to put on a crying display and enlist her friends to promote her victim status when you tell her, "Hey, I am interested in you as more than a friend" is really a sign that she is trying to transfer the guilt she feels to you and likely is a manipulative person. The goo thing is you dodged a bullet. Whoever she does date will be subject to her manipulative behavior and playing the victim when she knows she is wrong.

[alphamale]

1 hour ago, rjc149 said:

Classic case of what happens when her safe, secure cuddle buddy tries to break out of the friend zone. It puts her in an awkward situation and costs her a comfortable source of validation. 

We've all been through this, dude. It teaches us important life lessons, so look at it as an opportunity to grow and become a more attractive man. 

If you're attracted to a girl, flirt with her, escalate, and make your move quickly. And by making your move, don't ask her. Just do it. She will be giving you the signs and signals if she's receptive to it. Asking her to kiss her may be chivalrous and gentlemanly, but being over accommodating, sensitive, gentle and respectful will get you nowhere with women. I'm assuming you're young. At your age, you'll be watching a lot of really pretty girls, a lot of your crushes, going home with loud-mouthed, disrespectful douchebags who hook up with tons of girls and treat them like sh-t before you finally get it -- nice guys finish last. That does NOT mean you should be a douchebag. But you need to become more of an assertive alpha male who goes after what he wants, not spend 2 months being a girl's little puppy dog. 

Live and learn brother. 

^^^this is so true^^^

[fromheart]

12 hours ago, Lorf10 said:

Hey guys, 

I have never experienced something like this... I have been really close with this one girl. We hang out everyday, cuddle and sometimes even hold hands in public. Yesterday I decided it is time to make a move. We went out to a bar with a few friends. She came up to me, we started dancing and then I asked her "Can I kiss you"... Her answer: "Later".

So to tighten up your game, this is where you say 'Ok, see you...'  Maybe talk to another girl instead, or just leave.  Don't ask her for an explanation or anything.  A girl says yes or it's a no.

Her friend has no right to yell at you, inn that situation calmly say 'Calm down a bit and speak like an adult, or this conversation has to end.'  Don't tolerate women shouting at you for no good reason, clamp down on it.

She sounds like she has the emotional maturity of a 12 year old to tell the truth.  Are you all quite young?  Anyway, learn to practice the art of walking away.  Then you'll get what you want with another woman more deserving of your time.

[Lorf10]

Thanks for your answers. I have taken all my confidence and talked to her about what happened (while sober). She was the one who wanted to talk.

So: After an hour she admitted to having feelings for me. We both started crying and she asked if she can hug me. I said "Technically we shouldn't but I really wanna hug you too"... So we hugged for extremely long. We both admitted that we don't wanna loose each other and that we love spending time with each other and that every second is worth it.

After talking more about our feelings we had to make a decision. Try a relationship or not. I told her I would most likely be willing to try it and she said that she needs time to think about it but she would back to me in the next 2 hours. (I am assuming she is calling friends, etc...). (Her precise words were: I need time to think about such a big decision because I never jump into things without thinking it over)

The reasons why she is scared of committing (according to her) are that she got treated really badly in the last 2 relationships she had and that she is scared that I like her more than she likes me and that I go overboard if she says "yes". I told her that I would respect any "boundaries" and that I won't go all in (I also specifically said that it is NOT just about sex/intimate actions). 

I don't have high hopes that she will say "yes" but you never know. If she says "no" we both will drop out of societies and sport teams that we are in together so that we don't see each other anymore. I hope that will work. I don't know if it will. I doubt it. But we will see.

Do you guys also think she is gonna say "no"?

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Lorf10

[basil67]

Two previous bad relationships and now gun shy?  She's not relationship material (at present).  

Glad you've got communication lines open now.

Edited January 12, 2020 by basil67

[Lorf10]

6 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Two previous bad relationships and now gun shy?  She's not relationship material (at present).  

Glad you've got communication lines open now.

I don't know what happened. It seems to have been really bad. She started balling her eyes out when I asked her why she can't have a relationship rn. There is something bad that is blocking her. 

But I accept her decision. I am glad she was honest with me. 

[basil67]

5 minutes ago, Lorf10 said:

I don't know what happened. It seems to have been really bad. She started balling her eyes out when I asked her why she can't have a relationship rn. There is something bad that is blocking her. 

But I accept her decision. I am glad she was honest with me. 

There may well have been something bad.  It's also possible she's the overly emotional type or a victim type who will always think she's been hard done by.   I hate to say it, but the more negative experiences a potential partner has had in their past, the more red flags.   Does she also talk of friends who let her down in the past, or is it just the two relationships?

[Lorf10]

5 minutes ago, basil67 said:

There may well have been something bad.  It's also possible she's the overly emotional type or a victim type who will always think she's been hard done by.   I hate to say it, but the more negative experiences a potential partner has had in their past, the more red flags.   Does she also talk of friends who let her down in the past, or is it just the two relationships?

No. It's just the two relationships. I don't know why she is so scared but I will accept every decision she makes! 

[fromheart]

A woman who wants you always says yes, and doesn't give a damn about the past.  By all means, see where this takes you, but with experience you may find that her attraction isn't as strong as is required for you to make an emotional commitment.

She's turned you down once, now she needs to think about it.  Most men would take off at this point.

[Lorf10]

 

On 1/12/2020 at 3:47 AM, fromheart said:

A woman who wants you always says yes, and doesn't give a damn about the past.  By all means, see where this takes you, but with experience you may find that her attraction isn't as strong as is required for you to make an emotional commitment.

She's turned you down once, now she needs to think about it.  Most men would take off at this point.

That is true. However, she was passed out drunk when she rejected me the first time (she can't even remember rejecting me). That's why I am giving her the benefit of the doubt.

---

Overall this whole situation is kinda s***ty. We both know we like each other (I might like her a little more than she likes me) but we both know it's either trying a relationship or we are right away not talking anymore. Another solution would be staying friends but setting rules like: No cuddling, no hanging out past 12am, etc... But are we both gonna follow them considering we hugged so many times already knowing we shouldn't?

Edited February 11, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Topical material

[ChatroomHero]

The whole, "my past relationships have made it impossible for me to have a future one" line is bull. Again, it is what she is saying to make her the victim and avoid being the bad guy and having to reject you. You'll find in life women will say things like that and 2 weeks later be in a full on relationship with someone else.

A normal reaction to a close friend coming out and showing interest when the other party is not, is, "Eh. I feel bad. This is going to be awkward. I want you as a friend but understand if that won't work for you, I know it wouldn't be fair and it would be hard on me to not 'lead' you on unintentionally. It would be hard to date someone else in front of you..."

A manipulative reaction would be to claim victim status and cry, cry to her friends like YOU did something wrong, somehow, for complimenting her by showing interest, then give you the 'ol, I am too damaged because once I dated a guy for 2 weeks and we didn't get along so now I am ruined for life as far as dating because it was sooooooo bad". You see, that is how she keeps you in her orbit and let's you give her all the investments in a relationship without having to sleep with you. She becomes the victim and her "horrible past dating history" puts you squarely in the friendzone forever if you accept it because now in your mind the noble approach that will eventually win her over will be you backing off and respecting her "past dating issues". You will subconsciously be white knighting it by being different from all the other guys and not trying to hit on her and date her. While you are orbiting, some other guy will tickle her fancy and boom! Suddenly she is ready to date again and oh, damn, the timing was messed up and you just missed your chance...back in her orbit you go.

I am guessing you are young. But this is how people play and manipulate others. See, you'll be frustrated as hell because you feel and probably were led on. But if you step back and see the manipulation and take out your thoughts/hopes that there is a chance she will suddenly see you as the love of her life and rationally review the situation, I think you'll come to the conculsion you got played. If you go on being 'friends with rules' with someone you are interested in, you will feel like you got played again eventually. Only this time it would be all on you because all the signs were there to begin with.

Frankly, if I talked to her I would tell her that her reaction was totally out of bounds. You understand she is not interested and being friends won't work and you want to move on amicably and I would probably point out to her that a stand up person would understand and frankly not bad mouth you to her friends. Because what she will do is tell her friends how horrible you are (for simply liking her), when they ask why she is not hanging out with you anymore. It is what it is, but bad PR might damage your chances with women in her circle in the future. 

 

[Lorf10]

10 minutes ago, ChatroomHero said:

The whole, "my past relationships have made it impossible for me to have a future one" line is bull. Again, it is what she is saying to make her the victim and avoid being the bad guy and having to reject you. You'll find in life women will say things like that and 2 weeks later be in a full on relationship with someone else.

A normal reaction to a close friend coming out and showing interest when the other party is not, is, "Eh. I feel bad. This is going to be awkward. I want you as a friend but understand if that won't work for you, I know it wouldn't be fair and it would be hard on me to not 'lead' you on unintentionally. It would be hard to date someone else in front of you..."

A manipulative reaction would be to claim victim status and cry, cry to her friends like YOU did something wrong, somehow, for complimenting her by showing interest, then give you the 'ol, I am too damaged because once I dated a guy for 2 weeks and we didn't get along so now I am ruined for life as far as dating because it was sooooooo bad". You see, that is how she keeps you in her orbit and let's you give her all the investments in a relationship without having to sleep with you. She becomes the victim and her "horrible past dating history" puts you squarely in the friendzone forever if you accept it because now in your mind the noble approach that will eventually win her over will be you backing off and respecting her "past dating issues". You will subconsciously be white knighting it by being different from all the other guys and not trying to hit on her and date her. While you are orbiting, some other guy will tickle her fancy and boom! Suddenly she is ready to date again and oh, damn, the timing was messed up and you just missed your chance...back in her orbit you go.

I am guessing you are young. But this is how people play and manipulate others. See, you'll be frustrated as hell because you feel and probably were led on. But if you step back and see the manipulation and take out your thoughts/hopes that there is a chance she will suddenly see you as the love of her life and rationally review the situation, I think you'll come to the conculsion you got played. If you go on being 'friends with rules' with someone you are interested in, you will feel like you got played again eventually. Only this time it would be all on you because all the signs were there to begin with.

Frankly, if I talked to her I would tell her that her reaction was totally out of bounds. You understand she is not interested and being friends won't work and you want to move on amicably and I would probably point out to her that a stand up person would understand and frankly not bad mouth you to her friends. Because what she will do is tell her friends how horrible you are (for simply liking her), when they ask why she is not hanging out with you anymore. It is what it is, but bad PR might damage your chances with women in her circle in the future. 

 

What a coincidence, I just checked the thread for new answers and you "just now" answered lol.

Anyways, I told her exactly what you said. "I got played" and that I don't see a reason to be with her anymore and then she started crying for 5 minutes and then admitted that she feels something and that she definitely likes me (maybe less than I like her but she does like me). Considering her balling her eyes out I would say she was pretty honest with what she said. She also admitted to have done things with me that she has never done with anyone else and that all these things felt right. 

So are you suggesting that she said that she likes me just so I don't feel led on? And then when I asked her to be exclusive to each other she just hit me with the "I'm not ready"? Wouldn't that be "dumb"? She could have just not said that she likes me? Why would she say that and then use "I'm not ready" as an excuse? If you know what I mean.

Considering everything, it is probably the best to go separate ways if she is not willing to try a relationship.

 

//Edit: She just texted me asking if we can talk again later (or she can text me everything if I don't want to/have time)

Edited January 12, 2020 by Lorf10

[Angelflower]

3 minutes ago, Lorf10 said:

//Edit: She just texted me asking if we can talk again later (or she can text me everything if I don't want to/have time)

I am sorry but this does not sound very promising at all. 

[Lorf10]

14 minutes ago, Angelflower said:

I am sorry but this does not sound very promising at all. 

I know. I knew she is gonna say no. But it still hurts.

[ChatroomHero]

6 minutes ago, Lorf10 said:

What a coincidence, I just checked the thread for new answers and you "just now" answered lol.

Anyways, I told her exactly what you said. "I got played" and that I don't see a reason to be with her anymore and then she started crying for 5 minutes and then admitted that she feels something and that she definitely likes me (maybe less than I like her but she does like me). Considering her balling her eyes out I would say she was pretty honest with what she said. She also admitted to have done things with me that she has never done with anyone else and that all these things felt right. 

So are you suggesting that she said that she likes me just so I don't feel led on? And then when I asked her to be exclusive to each other she just hit me with the "I'm not ready"? Wouldn't that be "dumb"? She could have just not said that she likes me? Why would she say that and then use "I'm not ready" as an excuse? If you know what I mean.

Considering everything, it is probably the best to go separate ways if she is not willing to try a relationship.

 

//Edit: She just texted me asking if we can talk again later (or she can text me everything if I don't want to/have time)

Well, telling her that you think she "played" you will only result in her crying and being the victim. I wouldn't have said that. She knows she was playing you but will not admit it to herself or in a sense she might not really think she played you simply because she doesn't want to go down that path internally and analyse how her playing GF would impact you in a bad way.

See, what you are kind of saying above is you think she really does like you and have interest in you but for some reason she cannot put into practice that she likes you or is interested in you. That is BS. "I am not ready" is 1000000000% an excuse to not have to reject you.

Look at it the other way. If you have a female friend that you only ever saw as a friend and are not attracted to but you are good friends and she professed her love to you...would you say, "Oh. Oh God no. No. You are not attractive to me and we will never be intimate. That has never crossed my mind. Ooof. No"!? Or would you say, "I like you. I like hanging out, you are attractive...." then she says, "ok, so you are attracted to me and like my personality, so you must want to be with me?"...then you have to say something like, "Yes, I do like you and you are pretty. I am just not ready to date right now". Because the alternative is brutal honesty, telling a friend you care about that you don't find her attractive and want to date someone else you do find attractive.

You find at times you'll hear a girl indicate interest and then if you talk to her friends that know her well and they will give a different story. She never talks about you. She likes some other guy in her one class. She hasn't really said much about you to them. I don't know, she is kind of quiet about guys she likes, she doesn't really talk about that stuff...etc. If she does like you, her friends usually will be like, will you ask her out already, she won't shut up about you. In this case, her friend called and accused you of apparently being a bad guy for saying you liked her. What must she have said to that friend to make you professing your interest to her such a bad thing? If she liked and was interested in you, why would she cry to her friends and apparently position you as a bad guy because you expressed interest in return?

In a nutshell, if she is not interested and ok with keeping you in her orbit as the nonsexual BF that does all the nice things that the guy banging her refuses to do, yes, she absolutely will keep telling you she is interested while never showing actual interest with her actions. If she kept saying she wanted to kiss you, but 8 months on never kissed you and rejected your every attempt to kiss her, would you believe her the next time she said she wanted to kiss you? Or would you judge her on her actual actions?

[ChatroomHero]

As far as the text, I agree. It doesn't sound good. 

Do you know what the confident man's play here is? You answer, hey, you don't need to explain. I was interested in you and you don't feel the same way. I valued our friendship but us continuing to hang out would be hard for me because I could not just stop being interested or put that aside. It's not your fault it's just part of relationships. I am not going to avoid or ignore you, but I am not going to continue to hang out with you and I hope you understand why and don't think it would be anything other than it would be too hard for me to do so. 

Then save that text for when you are at a party and one of her friends is giving you the stink eye and when you ask her why, you'll probably need to show her the "break up" text to show that you are not king a*hole. Trust me on that one.

[Lorf10]

Thank you for the answers. It all makes sense what you are saying (unfortunately). I told her that I would prefer to talk but that she can also just text me if that is easier for her. 

However, I have to disagree she does tell her friends about me. And she does tell her friends positive things about me. When her friend accused me she was drunk. Really drunk, and the next morning her friend texted me and said sorry for what she said. 

 

I don't even know why I am so interested in her. We are both going home for the summer (which is around 5000 miles apart) and next semester she is going on an exchange to somewhere in Europe. So after this term (ending in April) I won't even see her for around 9 months. There is no reason in dating. Really. Actually, maybe that's even why she doesn't wanna commit? Scared of getting attached and then we're separate for 9 months which is gonna ruin the relationship 100%.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Lorf10