Why don't men try to win your heart first?

[contel3]

Just something I'd like to add before my post gets misinterpreted

I totally get where you're coming from with wanting to be respected and seen as a woman….not a sexual object. 

At the same time dating should be fun and flirty. So my point was, if you meet a guy you actually like (but escalates too quick) you have much better chances if you make your approach to dating sound interesting. So instead of communicating that you feel uncomfortable with physical touch early on, you could try communicating that waiting for the tension to build is just "so much more exiting". It doesn't matter how you phrase it though as long as there is a positive spin to it. 

[introverted1]

2 hours ago, Gr8fuln2020 said:

Wait how long? I haven’t met a single woman who hadn’t said the same thing and very soon became intimate. So, did the ‘something more’ occur after one date? 2? 5? 

Such sentiment only reinforces a reality that everyone woman requires different somethings to occur. I have only met one or two questionable women while the the others have been mature, independent. Just because some women have sex earlier doesn’t mean they are any less...

I wasn't implying that anyone is "more" or "less" if they have sex early, just sharing one data point.

And of course each woman is different!  What's right for one isn't what is necessarily right for another. 

p.s. I think there are lots of playful/sexy ways to communicate that sex will be on the table, just not right now.

Edited March 4, 2020 by introverted1

[SumGuy]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

If you are dating outwith your culture then maybe some explanation is necessary as I guess most Western men would not see holding hands as a no no or being too forward on a first date.

This is kind of off point, but I do see holding hands as very intimate, a we are together kind of thing, along with walking with your arm around someone for any length of time.   I get I'm weird in this but consider it more forward than kissing.  I'm good with it if she is, love it when she does it, but these things I tend to wait on longer than kissing.

[SumGuy]

42 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

p.s. I think there are lots of playful/sexy ways to communicate that sex will be on the table, just not right now.

Do any of those include sex on the table?    Sorry, couldn't resist.

[SummerDreams]

20 hours ago, Hopeful30 said:

This lack of patience is off-putting, and I'm not sure if it's just me, but when a man makes a sexual move early, I interpret that as "he thinks I'm attractive but doesn't care beyond that to withhold his caveman urges". As in, yes men want sex, but how willing are they to wait for a woman to truly be ready? Have 'easy' women made men impatient?

To be honest this behavior is a blessing in disguise for me. I see it as a way to filter the relationship material guys from guys who want only sex. I do believe that feminism and women who want to be similar to men have made men impatient. A man traditionally wants sex, this is no secret, but they used to know decades and centuries ago that they had to prove themselves first for the woman to choose them. Slowly this requirement has become less and less important since more and more women don't want to wait to have sex with a man. It's like fast food, people in the past years had to buy the food and then cook it. When fast food stores opened, slowly the need to buy and cook food became less and less, so people are just used to order something in order to eat.

This doesn't mean that relationship material guys are not out there. Filter the impatient guys out and keep looking for the serious men.

[Fletch Lives]

I just said it yesterday - One of the biggest problems in dating is men moving too fast.

[carhill]

20 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

he wanted to make it very clear he was interested, and "men don't get anywhere by being too nice."

Smart man. Drill enough dry holes and the mud runs short and the bits burn out and you go broke. Smart man knows go strong and pull the rig if no oil is coming. He's decisive. Coming from oil patch, women were often compared to wildcatting wells. I went broke more than a few times by being a dope about that. Being too measured, too polite, too nice, too slow, too much after her heart.

Guys play ball, roughhouse, race cars, hunt, do guy stuff with guys. Women are for soft, squishy tender things and we enjoy being with someone we're not constantly competing with to win. To relax. Unlike women, men don't get much affection in life, much touch, much love, except from their women, if they're lucky (see sex-free marriage threads here). It can be a hard, lonely existence. Buck up pussy, women don't like a complainer.

18 hours ago, alphamale said:

it's not 1789 anymore RS 

Yup, and women change men like underwear. There's always a BBD and it's completely perception when it comes to romance and mating. I think my parents were born in the 1780's for all the role-modeling they did on relationships and mating 😂

Bottom line if a man is attractive, women will bang him enthusiastically and early and they'll tell you the emotional connection is off the charts. Until it's not. Then he's scum of the earth. A wallet. A bad father. Loser. That's life! 

[mark clemson]

19 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I guess I'd ask the men here - would you rather a woman who doesn't want to hold hands until at least date 4 hint about that, or come right out and explain to you that she's interested and serious, but doesn't feel comfortable with that until she gets to know you after a few dates?

I think it's helpful to men to be clear as to your intentions/expectations. I think the trick is to make them realize what you want within the natural flow of conversation, without it coming across as "expectations" or a formal discussion, both of which can be totally offputting on a date. So while I don't totally agree with @d0nnivain I certainly do think the wise dalmatian is right that it can mess things up.

I think communicating this has to be much more along the lines of "I'm the kind of girl who really likes to get to know a guy and really feel comfortable with him" rather than "you're not allowed to touch me until I say you can". So the vibe of the communication (for lack of a better word) has to be right so as to not spoil the date and one's chances. And it should align with the messages that body language is sending as well. This can be easier said than done.

[Ruby Slippers]

21 hours ago, Hopeful30 said:

Have 'easy' women made men impatient? 

Yes.

The simple fact is that if women raised the bar for what they require from a man before having sex with him, men would do what it takes to clear it.

[Ruby Slippers]

3 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

I think communicating this has to be much more along the lines of "I'm the kind of girl who really likes to get to know a guy and really feel comfortable with him" rather than "you're not allowed to touch me until I say you can". So the vibe of the communication (for lack of a better word) has to be right so as to not spoil the date and one's chances. And it should align with the messages that body language is sending as well. This can be easier said than done.

Certainly, I completely agree with that. 

[mark clemson]

2 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Certainly, I completely agree with that. 

Thanks RS.

OP, a further note/suggestion:  I believe the clear "boundaries" communication needs to be within the context of a "I'm still genuinely interested" vibe as a well.  There probably are men out there who are jaded enough to assume that the woman is trying to milk him out of more free meals or similar. Communicating one's needs is frequently not risk-free, unfortunately. So again, easier said than done...

[Woggle]

Men do what works. If winning a woman's heart and being commitment minded work men would do it.  Times have changed since the old days and we all need to adjust to it or find one of the exceptions who still wants to live by those ways.

[SumGuy]

35 minutes ago, carhill said:

Bottom line if a man is attractive, women will bang him enthusiastically and early and they'll tell you the emotional connection is off the charts.

The operative word is attractive, but likely not the definition you have in mind, as think it is few women who find this view

Quote

  Yup, and women change men like underwear. 

attractive.

Quote

Smart man. Drill enough dry holes and the mud runs short and the bits burn out and you go broke. Smart man knows go strong and pull the rig if no oil is coming. He's decisive. Coming from oil patch, women were often compared to wildcatting wells.

A smart man knows reducing relationships to such an analogy may be funny but is no basis for guiding behavior.   Or to continue the analogy, a smart man takes his time before he drills a well so the dry holes are few and far between.  OK it's strained because don't see dating as anywhere near the work involved or risk of going broke on a wild cat well is, just a poor analogy.   So you spend some time getting to know her, as long as it is fun you wasted nothing...I mean unless the only determinant of success is sex.

Quote

 

Until it's not. Then he's scum of the earth. A wallet. A bad father. Loser. That's life! 

  Perhaps, but some people will be unfair to you no matter what in life, some even are the nastier to you the nicer you are to them.  If all your exs view you this way then, you should look hard at how you pick women or yourself.  I don't let the bad apples spoil it for me or even assume that all the women I have known are like all the other women out there.

Edited March 4, 2020 by SumGuy

[Ruby Slippers]

Yes. She needs to communicate in a non-clinical way that she's serious about finding a wonderful relationship with the right man and needs to take her time with the physical side. I think many men would find this refreshing.

[Legatus]

I have been on the other extreme of that spectrum.. Seems like I try to get to know somebody for too long before I want to turn it physical. It used to haunt me before I realised that it's perfectly okay to be demisexual and wanting to feel a connection to somebody before you take the next step..

[SumGuy]

Just now, Ruby Slippers said:

Yes. She needs to communicate in a non-clinical way that she's serious about finding a wonderful relationship with the right man and needs to take her time with the physical side. I think many men would find this refreshing.

Agreed, as a man, even as one who doesn't dilly dally about these things and could readily be sleeping with someone if that was my only goal.   

[Ruby Slippers]

1 minute ago, SumGuy said:

Agreed, as a man, even as one who doesn't dilly dally about these things and could readily be sleeping with someone if that was my only goal.   

Yes. My boyfriend says that sex is very easy to get, but a real connection with physical, intellectual, and personality attraction is extremely rare.

[mark clemson]

3 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I think many men would find this refreshing.

Some would I suspect and others may be happy in that it implies emotional sincerity and a "real relationship" is what they're looking for.

Others, though, will simply cut bait and head for what they perceive as greener pastures. And that's not necessarily just that they only want sex. Some men prefer to have sex quickly, bond through that, and then "figure out the rest later". There's a poster here who used to say that and I think she was onto something (for a certain percentage of men).

And a certain % are simply trying to get laid as well. There's all kinds out there. 🤠

[Ruby Slippers]

6 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Some would I suspect and others may be happy in that it implies emotional sincerity and a "real relationship" is what they're looking for.

Others, though, will simply cut bait and head for what they perceive as greener pastures. And that's not necessarily just that they only want sex. Some men prefer to have sex quickly, bond through that, and then "figure out the rest later". There's a poster here who used to say that and I think she was onto something (for a certain percentage of men).

And a certain % are simply trying to get laid as well. There's all kinds out there. 🤠

Yes, you make a good point. Though my boyfriend is highly intelligent in certain ways, when we met, his approach toward dating struck me as something like a chicken running wildly around the coop, going on impulse with not much of a strategy. I think a lot of people are anxious to establish what feels like a loving connection, and men tend to get that through sex, so they rush to get into bed and then ask questions later.

I recently pointed out to him that I'm the woman who's going to be taking care of him when he's an old man - as a good friend says to her 70-something divorced dad, "Who's going to feed you your peas when you're old?" - so it would behoove him to have a little more foresight and consider what kind of deposits he's making in the love and compassion account now. I also pushed the button of his desire for a good reputation, said think about the legacy you're creating in the heart and mind of the woman who loves you. This little speech seemed to give him a big wakeup call

[Shining One]

29 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Yes. She needs to communicate in a non-clinical way that she's serious about finding a wonderful relationship with the right man and needs to take her time with the physical side. I think many men would find this refreshing.

Translation in my head: We're going to delay something that's important to you in building a relationship, but you better deliver on the things important to me. While I would generally avoid women who significantly delay physical intimacy, I might be willing to consider it if she's willing to be equally patient with the aspects of relationship building that are important to her.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Shining One

[Ruby Slippers]

Sex is the most personal and intimate thing a person can do. These days it's been reduced by many to little more than a biological function like blowing your nose, but that doesn't change what it is at the core.

Women risk pregnancy, STD infection, emotional impact, and more. Men risk next to nothing.

I don't think it harms a woman's prospects in any way to be highly selective. She'll weed out only those not willing to invest in something real, which is a good thing for her.

Males of all species go to great lengths to secure mating partners. A few dinners is chump change in comparison to what males of some species do.

Another point is that people tend to value much more what they have to work and invest to get. Hence the saying: If she's amazing, she's not easy. If she's easy, she's not amazing.

[Miss Spider]

Well said, ruby!!!

[SummerDreams]

22 hours ago, simpycurious said:

"Many women can get the message across without even saying a word"....no truer words have ever been typed.

Body language, that certain look, you can get your message across and what is and is not appropriate. 

But why should women be the ones to always stop things from happening? I mean, why does the default have to be that men will attempt something sexual and that women should be the ones that with their body language will stop it? Why can't men be respectful and wait from women to show them they are ready to move forward?

[Shining One]

1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Another point is that people tend to value much more what they have to work and invest to get.

By this reasoning, it's logical for the man to have her be patient and work hard to earn that courtship.

[thefooloftheyear]

1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Yes.

The simple fact is that if women raised the bar for what they require from a man before having sex with him, men would do what it takes to clear it.

….or conversely, if a woman is desirable enough, then a guy does what he needs to do....

A woman can raise the bar to the moon, if they aint worth it, then no desirable guy will play that game...They'll walk right under that high bar and never look back...

TFY