Why don't men try to win your heart first?

[NuevoYorko]

22 hours ago, contel3 said:

How can you really be sure a person is telling the truth though? Most people will lie about these things.

 

This is another angel on the topic that I find amusing.  A field day for the manipulator.  Combine it with some flattery and queenly treatment and you're golden.

Even if they don't have bad intentions ... I find that many times when "none of your business" would be the proper answer to a question,  polite people won't go there.  It seems abrupt if not rude.  Instead, they will try to give the "right" answer.  

[contel3]

2 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

This is another angel on the topic that I find amusing.  A field day for the manipulator.  Combine it with some flattery and queenly treatment and you're golden.

Definitely.

I don't care one bit about people's past, so people are really open with me. As soon as there's someone around who does care, it's like they are a completely different person😆 

it can be really cringey at times! There's not always a bad intention behind it though, many people are just scared of being judged negatively.

Edited March 7, 2020 by contel3

[thecrucible]

This thread is interesting. I'll maybe have to cut guys a bit of slack when it comes to this as I can see that it's hard to navigate these things. At the same time, I find it too full on when a guy I've just met feels me up. It happened to me recently. I had a nice chat with a man on a night out, he asked for my number and I gave it to him. He wasn't creepy and he hadn't touched me up to that point and then suddenly when we hugged goodbye, he groped my bum. I was done after that. He text me the next day but I just blocked him.

[NuevoYorko]

1 hour ago, thecrucible said:

This thread is interesting. I'll maybe have to cut guys a bit of slack when it comes to this as I can see that it's hard to navigate these things. At the same time, I find it too full on when a guy I've just met feels me up.

If he had a "low number" would you be more willing to let it slide?  😇

[Woggle]

I have never seen a player struggle in the love department. I am not advocating a man being a player but there is something about knowing you have options that gives you self respect. It's the relationship minded men who only want commitment that tend to lose these days. If women want more men to be old fashioned gentlemen then make it worth their while. If you see a certain type of man constantly being chewed up and spit out there is no incentive to be that kind of man.

[5x5]

On 3/4/2020 at 8:14 AM, Shining One said:

Not in my experience. Almost all of my sexual experiences (25+ women) happened very early without significant effort. In contrast, the women I put the most effort into early on are the ones who I never had sex with. I've never had a "promise" of future sex come to fruition.

If wooing women and patiently winning them over had yielded positive results, I would likely have never strayed from that approach.

 

That has been my experience as well. The ones that weren't keen for sex at the very beginning, never were keen for it at any point afterwards either.

Way back during the late 1980s through mid 1990s I found that most of the women I was involved with tended towards an expectation and want for sex to occur very early on.

So within minutes in some instance through hours after first meeting at parties, pubs, clubs and events was the norm. While arranged dates tended to see sex being wanted, anywhere from the first date through the fourth, with it most often occurring on the first and second date.

Of which if I didn't initiate early on, or respond in a timely manner to their initiation. It was extremely likely that dating them would quickly come to an end, since they would probably presume there was something wrong with me.

On 3/4/2020 at 8:19 AM, Hopeful30 said:

How many of these 25+ turned into longterm or satisfying relationships? (Curious)

Although I can't speak to Shining One's experience, on satisfying relationships I can relate that my ex-wife and I had sex around two hours after our  first meeting (with both of us losing our virginity together at my initiation). With my third longest ongoing sexual relationship was with a woman, who I had sex with at the end of our second date at my initiation.

While my current and 2nd wife (who asked me out on our first date) and I, shared sex on our third date at her initiation. Yet we have been happily together for close to 24 years and married for almost 21 of those years while still sharing lots of sex together.

All of which has been quite satisfactory for me.

 

[5x5]

My wife relates that she never had sex with any men who were very accommodating, patient, generous and or overtly nice as well. To the point that in every instance, slowly or quickly. She always became bored by them, while also feeling that they couldn't stand for themselves. Which meant they were too passive, weak and indecisive for her liking, so she always dump them at some point for being more in line with what the OP wants.

 

[5x5]

On 3/5/2020 at 5:31 AM, Ruby Slippers said:

Hence the saying: If she's amazing, she's not easy. If she's easy, she's not amazing.

Such sayings are as useful as reading tea leaves.

Which is why I ignore such saying and unsurprisingly as a consequence of that. I have been splendidly happy with my fun, tall, very attractive, highly sexual, world travelled, bilingual, high earning, smart, hard working, pragmatic, highly educated, career accomplished, cancer surviving, mother (of our two children) and wife.

[basil67]

3 hours ago, Woggle said:

I have never seen a player struggle in the love department. I am not advocating a man being a player but there is something about knowing you have options that gives you self respect. It's the relationship minded men who only want commitment that tend to lose these days. If women want more men to be old fashioned gentlemen then make it worth their while. If you see a certain type of man constantly being chewed up and spit out there is no incentive to be that kind of man.

To be fair to men, you're comparing the two small ends of a spectrum and leaving out all the regular guys in the middle:  I'm talking about the average guys who are neither suave players nor boring old fashioned gentlemen.  And frankly, I wouldn't choose either the old fashioned guy or the player.  It's the WYSIWYG guy in the middle who attracts me.  He's the guy who I can have fun with (including bedroom fun) and who will settle down in a relationship if we find it's a good match.    

Taking it further, Ruby said "Hence the saying: If she's amazing, she's not easy. If she's easy, she's not amazing".   If this is actually a saying that old fashioned gentlemen have (as opposed to a saying which conservative women have to make themselves feel better), then he deserves to be spat out.  What woman in her right mind would want a judgemental arsehat as a partner?   I wouldn't last 5 minutes with such a man.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by basil67

[Woggle]

I agree that the guy in the middle is the best choice but I think a little time spent playing is good for a man. It changes his whole perspective. I was never the type to judge a woman for a sexual past. If a woman had her fun then came out of it without bitterness, hatred or misandry then she can make a great long term partner but a lot of women end up playing around with bad boys, get traumatized because they feel they have been used and end up with a very anti-male attitude and no man wants to pay for other men's sins.

[SummerDreams]

Just now, Woggle said:

 a lot of women end up playing around with bad boys, get traumatized because they feel they have been used and end up with a very anti-male attitude and no man wants to pay for other men's sins.

The problem with the type of woman you are describing is not that she has an anti-male attitude rather than that she is not capable to accept her mistakes and take the responsibility for them. Nobody made her go for the bad guys, it was her choice and she has to accept the consequences of her actions. If she can't, then this shows an immature and even spoiled person who is not of course a good choice for a relationship.

[basil67]

25 minutes ago, Woggle said:

I agree that the guy in the middle is the best choice but I think a little time spent playing is good for a man. It changes his whole perspective. I was never the type to judge a woman for a sexual past. If a woman had her fun then came out of it without bitterness, hatred or misandry then she can make a great long term partner but a lot of women end up playing around with bad boys, get traumatized because they feel they have been used and end up with a very anti-male attitude and no man wants to pay for other men's sins.

Wait....a guy who spends time "playing" is a player, yes?   A player is defined as "someone who fakes a serious degree of romantic interest while often conducting several similar relationships simultaneously – is deceptive and manipulative by nature."   He's exactly the type of man who knows how to seduce women like the OP using faked romance and courting.

If this kind of man ruins women for other men, men should be taking it up with the players...not criticising the women who've been tricked

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by basil67

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, Woggle said:

I agree that the guy in the middle is the best choice but I think a little time spent playing is good for a man. It changes his whole perspective

So a man should be allowed to trick, seduce, hurt and ruin women, then be allowed his pick of all the "good" undamaged ones when he feels like it...
He can then sit in judgement of all the bitter "misandrists", no doubt "ruined" by his actions or by the actions of other selfish men who used, abused and spat out women as is their wont... 
In this world we need more kindness, more empathy , more understanding not less.

[manfrombelow2]

On 3/6/2020 at 9:54 PM, Hopeful30 said:

Seducing a woman and winning her heart are very different things. When you win a woman's heart, it means you have showed her your soul, and equally respect hers. From this perspective, sex is an extension of true connection. Seduction is manipulation for the purposes of carnal/mental sex. I'm after the deeper intimacy beyond that.

No they are not. I'm sorry but they are not. 

[SummerDreams]

3 minutes ago, thaygiaogiang said:

No they are not. I'm sorry but they are not. 

For a stupid and/or inexperienced woman, they are not. For a smart, experienced woman it's a piece of cake to see the difference. Players are very predictable.

[Ellener]

On 3/3/2020 at 2:03 PM, Ruby Slippers said:

I think our very oversexualized pornified culture is largely to blame - and the fact that so many women now set the bar so very low.

Well said.

When a world leader joked about grabbing a woman's privates and isn't expected to step down or at least apologise in ignominy people should have raised questions, not tittered or made excuses for it. It's indicative of where society is headed when 'anything goes'- for the favoured few and with a lot of hypocrisy!

On 3/3/2020 at 1:56 PM, Hopeful30 said:

As in, yes men want sex, but how willing are they to wait for a woman to truly be ready?

I want a man to get in tune with me and me with him on all levels for a relationship to be meaningful at this stage of my life. But a lot of the cultural messages encourage game-playing instead of intimacy or encourage out-of-control as some kind of freedom...

 

 

[Ellener]

On 3/6/2020 at 6:31 AM, thefooloftheyear said:

But let's be honest, ....who will really tell the truth here?...

I think it's down to me personally to set the tone in the relationship. I can have sex with anyone, and in my culture/era it's not going to have mega-consequences if I'm discrete and careful not to catch diseases...I don't have to 'pretend' to do a 'relationship' in order to have a sexual partner and it be acceptable.

But for true intimacy truth is everything. First off- don't ask unless you really want to know! I see people asking very personal questions then when given an honest answer they don't like they are going to judge and be irritated! Not fair or mature.

But second- set the tone in the way you behave yourself. Don't be afraid of embarrassment or vulnerability or being alone etc.

And treat other people how you'd like to be treated!

On 3/6/2020 at 7:04 PM, basil67 said:

Was he asking for your opinion?

And that's the other thing: being reasonable to the situation. Going in with an agenda or emotional baggage that would be better taken to a therapist, or with expectations someone should meet say your sexual or financial ( ! ) needs, how is that going to lead to two people getting close to each other, if that's truly what we are searching for?

And that's the crux of it probably- know what you are really about. 

 

[Woggle]

I never said anything about tricking women. I am a firm believer in honesty from all parties. Between marriages I had a FWB situation with a woman and both of us 100% honest from the jump that it was strictly about sex. She even told me that she was allergic to relationships which was fine for me because at the time I felt the same. A few months into the situation she starts falling in love so I cut it off and acts like I was the insensitive jerk who used her when I just stuck to the original terms of the deal. Many times you can be honest and still get called a jerk.

[princessaurora]

There are so many variables on what a guy can get away with on a date with a woman. For starters men in their  late teens-early twenties have a hard time controlling their hormones or still don't have enough experience so they try to advance pretty quickly.  It doesn't necessarilly make them jerks, depending on how they handle it.  They just haven't dated enough women yet to know where the boundaries are and if they're extremely attractive, those boundaries are going to be very lax for a good bit of those women which conditions them to make it routine behavior. Now there are limits with even the superhot. If they are grabbing intimate  body parts before even kissing you, they're likely going to get the boot because that's an obvious "i just want to screw you" move and any woman with self respect will put an end to it right there. 

But then you have the  type who just really don't know how to advance things or when, so they may cop a feel shortly after kissing not realizing it could make you uneasy. I had this happen when I was in early college. This really cute guy in my class asked me out  on a date and as soon as we started kissing, he grabbed my boobs and I was like, whoah.  I ended the date right there and the following day he dropped by to apologize and brought me flowers. He told me he was from a very devout Catholic family and he went to a strict all boy school and his parents woudn't let him date so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. We continued dating and had sex on date 4. Then he tells me he was a virgin which I guess I should have assumed, but damn was he good! lol 

Another variable is the type of connection you feel with someone as the date progresses. It may just come natural to touch each other if you really like the person. That doesnt mean they're using you or think you're easy. Now in most cases, do I think sex on the first date is going too far? Absolutely, but a little making out lets youknow he desires you and that is something you want validated pretty early on unless you're waiting for marriage to have sex. 

I'd rather a guy who pushes the limits a little than one who is too scared to kiss me any day. In most cases, they're just the puppy who chewed up your shoe not realizing they did something wrong and once you correct them, they usually slow things way down. 

Girls lose interest in guys who seems slow to act on their feelings. One of the last guys I dated before me I got married was very attractive but very insecure for some crazy reason. . We went out on a few dates and he hadn't even kissed me yet. Finally, as he pulled up at my house to bring me home, he leaned over to kiss me. Instead we bumped noses and laughed it off. I thought he'd  lean over and go  for another  kiss  but he didn't. I went on a few more dates with him where things finally did progress to kissing and heavy petting but it was too little , too late and I quickly lost interest. I wanted a man who desired me so much he couldnt keep his hands off of me at that point and he wasn't meeting the demand. 

The bottom line is most women don't want to have cheap meaningless sex, but we want to ensure pretty early on that our potential partners find us sexually desirable, so falling somewhere in the middle is the best approach for a guy. He shouldn't  be afraid to make a move but make sure you're past the getting to know you stage first which could happen in a few hours or a few dates depending on the setting and situation. 

In regard to OP's original question, few guys are going to wait till they're in love with you in this day and age  to advance because sexual compatibility is part of most relaionships, but it's ok to expect them to show genuine interest and open to a potential future with you before doing so.      Now of course, there are guys who are just looking to get laid, but you should be able to spot them pretty easily by the lines they use and how quickly they make an advance. But being your young age, if you are dating in that same bracket, expect alot of it and be prepared to draw the line wherever you see fit. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SummerDreams]

Isn't a man asking a woman on a date and actually going to this date (and more dates after it) enough validation that he desires her? 

For me first dates are not to see whether we desire each other sexually because sex is not gonna happen unless we are compatible as people, have similar values, can have good conversations and have fun with each other's company. So no, in the first like 10 dates I am not worried if he desires me sexually. Obviously, he is there and he continues to ask or accept dates so he has a sexual desire for me, he is not gonna go to dates with a woman he sees as a friend.

So I find it a little funny and bizarre that women in the first or second date without the guy making some move will feel insecure that he may not desire them sexually. Then wtf is he doing there on a date with you?

 

[OatsAndHall]

As I've posted before, I try to move slowly when it comes to sex; I become overly attached to a woman I've slept with and will ignore red-flags. I have always been the type to let a woman lead the way in this area; I'll initiate the first kiss, hand holding, (etc..) but everything after that is at the woman's pace. With that being said, I have still run into uncomfortable situations which has made me a bit wary at times.

I had been out with one woman a few times and she invited me over for dinner and a movie. It felt like a "Netflix and chill" situation but I didn't go over there expecting anything. Yes, sex would've been nice (she was gorgeous) but we'd both talked about taking things slowly. Things got hot n' heavy between us, she ran her hand up the front of my shirt and I reciprocated by "copping a feel". The brakes on that bus got pumped in a hurry; she was uncomfortable and asked to move slowly. I apologized and we just went back to watching the movie. Within a half-hour, she initiated another make out session, had her hand up my shirt but I kept mine to myself.

Things got hotter and heavier, she was half straddling me, her hand was up the back of my shirt and I put my hand on her rear. Brakes were slammed down again and I got uncomfortable with the situation. So, I told her that we should finish out the movie and just cuddle. She started to initiate another make out session soon after and I politely told her that we both wanted to move slowly and it seemed like things might get a bit out of hand it we started up again. She was quiet and reserved throughout the rest of the movie and I headed home after.

I sent her a text thanking her for dinner and the movie along with a generic "I enjoyed myself".  Her response: "Seems you would've enjoyed it more if you had gotten some.." So, I went into "damage control" mode, got her to send a texts stating that she initiated things, that she had her hand up my shirt, she was straddling me and that I had backed off when she asked me to. I really didn't know the woman that well and wasn't going to have any unfounded claims made against me.

I'm not condoning guys who are pushy or pull creepy things. On the same token, boundaries need to be established and there shouldn't be any grey area.

[SummerDreams]

19 minutes ago, OatsAndHall said:

I try to move slowly when it comes to sex; I become overly attached to a woman I've slept with and will ignore red-flags.

 

20 minutes ago, OatsAndHall said:

she invited me over for dinner and a movie. It felt like a "Netflix and chill" situation but I didn't go over there expecting anything. Yes, sex would've been nice (she was gorgeous)

These two sentences here contradict one another and it shows the real gap between men and women. A woman who genuinelly wants to meet a guy before having sex with him will never consider going on a date with the possibility she may have sex with him. A man though, even when he claims to want to move slowly, will always be ready and jump to the possibility of sex and forget about his wanting to go slow. And that's why men will never understand women and vice versa, because when it comes to sex, men find it hard (or impossible) to set boundaries so they think it's the same with women.

[princessaurora]

16 minutes ago, OatsAndHall said:

As I've posted before, I try to move slowly when it comes to sex; I become overly attached to a woman I've slept with and will ignore red-flags. I have always been the type to let a woman lead the way in this area; I'll initiate the first kiss, hand holding, (etc..) but everything after that is at the woman's pace. With that being said, I have still run into uncomfortable situations which has made me a bit wary at times.

I had been out with one woman a few times and she invited me over for dinner and a movie. It felt like a "Netflix and chill" situation but I didn't go over there expecting anything. Yes, sex would've been nice (she was gorgeous) but we'd both talked about taking things slowly. Things got hot n' heavy between us, she ran her hand up the front of my shirt and I reciprocated by "copping a feel". The brakes on that bus got pumped in a hurry; she was uncomfortable and asked to move slowly. I apologized and we just went back to watching the movie. Within a half-hour, she initiated another make out session, had her hand up my shirt but I kept mine to myself.

Things got hotter and heavier, she was half straddling me, her hand was up the back of my shirt and I put my hand on her rear. Brakes were slammed down again and I got uncomfortable with the situation. So, I told her that we should finish out the movie and just cuddle. She started to initiate another make out session soon after and I politely told her that we both wanted to move slowly and it seemed like things might get a bit out of hand it we started up again. She was quiet and reserved throughout the rest of the movie and I headed home after.

I sent her a text thanking her for dinner and the movie along with a generic "I enjoyed myself".  Her response: "Seems you would've enjoyed it more if you had gotten some.." So, I went into "damage control" mode, got her to send a texts stating that she initiated things, that she had her hand up my shirt, she was straddling me and that I had backed off when she asked me to. I really didn't know the woman that well and wasn't going to have any unfounded claims made against me.

I'm not condoning guys who are pushy or pull creepy things. On the same token, boundaries need to be established and there shouldn't be any grey area.

So she could put her hands on you, but you couldn't put your hands on her. Are you sure you weren't dating a stripper? 🤣

 

Definitely sounds like a double standard there , especially with her having an issue with you  touching her butt. To me that is not as much as a big deal as boobs or crotch, but if she had her hands on your chest, I don't see why she would be so surprised. Still, people slap their kids on the butt for Lawds sake. It is not a taboo area IMHO. 

Of course this is coming from someone who has an amazing ass that gets slapped and grabbed on a daily basis by my hubby and coworkers.  People just can't keep their hands off of it. lol

 

 

 

[OatsAndHall]

3 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

 

These two sentences here contradict one another and it shows the real gap between men and women. A woman who genuinelly wants to meet a guy before having sex with him will never consider going on a date with the possibility she may have sex with him. A man though, even when he claims to want to move slowly, will always be ready and jump to the possibility of sex and forget about his wanting to go slow. And that's why men will never understand women and vice versa, because when it comes to sex, men find it hard (or impossible) to set boundaries so they think it's the same with women.

 

I didn't say I was a monk; I stated that I try to move slowly. I have never slept with a woman any sooner than the fourth date, I keep myself in check and I'm never pushy about anything. This was the fifth time I had been out with this woman, we had a good time together and, yes, sex would have been fun. I wasn't pushing for it or expecting it but we were exclusive and I wouldn't have turned her down. I would've been completely content with making out on the couch and nothing more as well.

[Ami1uwant]

On 3/3/2020 at 2:56 PM, Hopeful30 said:

Do I expect too much for a man to court me and woo me prior to making a sexual move? Has this tradition of respect and genuine 'chase and conquer her heart' died out completely? I've always told my exes that they can make a move, but when it comes to sex for the first time, I prefer to make the decision when I'm ready (men are always ready lol women take more time usually). This lack of patience is off-putting, and I'm not sure if it's just me, but when a man makes a sexual move early, I interpret that as "he thinks I'm attractive but doesn't care beyond that to withhold his caveman urges". As in, yes men want sex, but how willing are they to wait for a woman to truly be ready? Have 'easy' women made men impatient? I've withheld my cave-woman urges of pouncing on men when they're displaying genuine emotion, because respecting my man's happiness and supporting him matters more than my sexual urges. Is it too much to expect the same? 

 

 

 

Yet you want equality but in dating want to be worshiped in a pedestal only wann you grant permission does sex happen.  Bad ROI..just deal with a hooker.