I (BS) Lost that Loving Feeling. Want it Back

[TooLateNow]

10 hours ago, mark clemson said:

@DKT3 I'm sure you're right about there being some level of codependence at play here as well (as happens in most very LTRs).

@TooLateNow

This makes sense as a goal, but the bolded may not be particularly realistic. "Crazy in love" tends to be associated with NRE - new relationship energy. Emphasis on new. After that fades, most couples tend towards a more "familial" love which can be great, but probably wouldn't be described as "crazy in love" by most people.

Some couples apparently don't lose that NRE "vibe" (although I believe this is fairly rare) and I'm certainly not suggesting you don't shoot for as much happiness as you would like. But it may make sense to take the above into account when assessing "results" and the quality of "love" you feel.

 

That is certainly decent and very loving of you. But, let's not kid ourselves - your wife had multiple affairs. The prospect of losing you may have made her lose all interest in affairs for now. But there is no way to know how long that might last. You don't have to turn into PI, but you'd be a bit crazy IMO not to at least be genuinely keeping an eye on her.

That may be right but it is disappointing about the "crazy in love" thing.

I remember when I started IC and the doctor asked about my goals for therapy and I said I wanted to be happy. She told me that was not realistic if I meant a near constant state of happiness because things happen that interrupt it and we cannot control what thoughts and memories enter our minds.  The goal was to learn to deal with whatever comes in a better manner that is more healthy and productive and centered on actual goals. I accepted that and have been working toward the goals fairly successfully until recently, but it was still disappointing to accept as fact that I could not be happy all the time and that I could not control my negative thoughts or memories but just had to learn to deal with them better. I wanted to eliminate them.

I also really want to be crazy in love with my wife but I am starting to accept that it may not be possible. And I am disappointed. Actually, it makes me very sad.

On the PI thing, she set up a bunch of ways for me to monitor even though I never asked and I do occasionally look at them. I never see anything, it always makes me anxious and uncomfortable even though I know she wants me to look and I am not going to find anything, and I just do not like doing it.  Only morbid curiosity keeps me checking now. I think I should stop even this.  Although that does seem stupid like you mentioned. I will probably keep checking.

[Bryanp]

I am just curious but if the roles were reversed do you think she would have stuck with you the way you have stuck with  her?

[WilyWill]

One thing is for sure. If you want to be "crazy in love" again, it could happen with someone else. It might never happen with your wife. There's just too much damage to undo. 

[Buffer]

This is as good as it gets. Sorry 😐 

 Buffer

[TooLateNow]

12 hours ago, Bryanp said:

I am just curious but if the roles were reversed do you think she would have stuck with you the way you have stuck with  her?

I do not think so and neither does she. But if we are truly codependent maybe she would. We will never know because I am not a cheater and never will be. 

[TooLateNow]

7 hours ago, Buffer said:

This is as good as it gets. Sorry 😐 

 Buffer

Thanks for commenting. You gave me some good input in my previous thread and I appreciate that and I appreciate you. Although it is not what I want to hear, I guess I have to accept it and proceed with a new mindset. I am disappointed but I will survive. 

[oldtruck]

On 3/6/2020 at 9:27 PM, TooLateNow said:

That may be right but it is disappointing about the "crazy in love" thing.

I remember when I started IC and the doctor asked about my goals for therapy and I said I wanted to be happy. She told me that was not realistic if I meant a near constant state of happiness because things happen that interrupt it and we cannot control what thoughts and memories enter our minds.  The goal was to learn to deal with whatever comes in a better manner that is more healthy and productive and centered on actual goals. I accepted that and have been working toward the goals fairly successfully until recently, but it was still disappointing to accept as fact that I could not be happy all the time and that I could not control my negative thoughts or memories but just had to learn to deal with them better. I wanted to eliminate them.

I also really want to be crazy in love with my wife but I am starting to accept that it may not be possible. And I am disappointed. Actually, it makes me very sad.

On the PI thing, she set up a bunch of ways for me to monitor even though I never asked and I do occasionally look at them. I never see anything, it always makes me anxious and uncomfortable even though I know she wants me to look and I am not going to find anything, and I just do not like doing it.  Only morbid curiosity keeps me checking now. I think I should stop even this.  Although that does seem stupid like you mentioned. I will probably keep checking.

normal to want to check

checking is how NC is confirmed and the broken trust gets repaired

[merrmeade]

On 3/5/2020 at 2:11 PM, TooLateNow said:

#1 - ...she set up a bunch of ways for me to monitor even though I never asked ..

#2 - ... that always ended in her crying and me feeling bad for her and just stopping the conversation... ... finally stood up for myself and made her talk it out with me and I did not give in when she cried. ...  She then somehow finally "got it." 

#3 - ...probably more significantly, I am feeling like I am losing my love for her. ... I so desperately for so many years wanted her to be like she is now. Now that she is being the wife I always wanted, I just am not feeling the love I felt for her in the past anymore.  ... I sort of feel like "I love her but am not in love with her." ...I want to be madly in love with her like I was in the beginning and like I was even through the worst of it and like she clearly seems to be now.

#1 - So she’s the one that needs this monitoring to happen and you don’t care. She wants to prove to you that she’s being good. Does she not trust herself? Apparently not. If she’s that insistent, she needs it and shouldn’t be given too much freedom. I think you need to do it and tell her that’s why you’re doing it—because she seems to need it so much—but that the whole thing is tiresome and shouldn’t be a thing in the first place or, at least, shouldn’t be the thing that keeps her faithful. But obviously it is, which makes it such a weird dynamic for someone in a 20+ year marriage to have to prove herself to you this way. It still implies a colossal lack of trust. The fact that she thinks she needs to prove her trustworthiness is itself a lack of trust and maturity. She doesn’t know a deeper, mutual trust that you both just know. That’s because she blew that possibility and that’s fact and done. So she needs to prove she’s honest now kind of like a kid. Look, mom, I told the truth all week!.Whether or not she knows it consciously, this is what it is saying: Keep me honest.

#2 - Yep, those disclosures from manipulative people who’ve refined the art of deception are not from the heart. They are in survival mode when they give partial truths that they calibrate to be just enough to satisfy you and (they hope) make you think they’ve really told you everything. Now, just who was THAT disclosure about? You or her? 

So “somehow she finally got it”? No, no. Somehow YOU finally got it and she just had no choice. 

#3 - What IS that anyway? — getting and “losing” love for somebody? —being “madly in love”? I suggest you read up on “limerence” and then think about the love you want in your marriage. And that’s all I’m going to say about that. You’re the one going on and on about what you’ve lost and don’t feel. You sound like someone ready for an affair! 

Just kidding - sort of. It’s just that ... I think you know this once you get unstuck on the broken record. It’s so much more than waking up to the fact that you have no choice but to be HONEST WITH YOURSELF. The question is not can you get that lovin’ feelin’ back but WHY did you lose it? 

You got some good insight here with gentle tact. The main thing I see is someone naive and unaware because you’ve been in a crappy relationship that didn’t allow you to grow as a couple or as individuals. It’s sad that it happened but great that you’re growing now. Keep going, regardless of the marriage. Do it for yourself because you are getting wiser every day about people, yourself, relationships and what you really want (and deserve). 

And isn’t that really the problem? You’ve said it yourself over and over here. You want it to work but it’s just not. You’ve matured and see the person she really is. Serial cheaters by definition are selfish and immature. They’re turned on by flirting, being flattered, the cat-and-mouse chase with an admirer. They become adept at lying and deception. Life in general is about getting away with things and being thrilled. Serial cheaters don’t have the depth and complexity to find even more fulfilling satisfaction in a mature relationship.

Now all that said, maybe she can come to that realization and want to do something about it rather than just focus on being a perfect wife to you — because this is what you want! You want a wife who’s working on herself and what has value in her life. I think that once you admit the truth to yourself and to her, you’ll both be a lot more relaxed about giving it a chance and working in more honest ways. You have to admit that it’s still a little (or a lot) broken and you have to start over. Acceptance is half the battle. Allowing your feelings, whatever they are, is the other half. Well maybe smaller fractions than half but anyway it starts there.

Now, maybe you’ll get over it and maybe you won’t, but I can guarantee that the most important person who needs to be in therapy is — both of you! She needs to keep trying to figure out just who she is — name and deal with that person who was capable of hurting you — and then identify who she wants to be. So what if she’s 50. 60. It’s happening finally; that’s the most important thing.

You need it for the same reason but you need to work on what’s really going on for you. Saying it aloud to a therapist goes a long way. You need to not forget what she did to you and let her do the relationship work now. Watch and see how and if she changes. The uncertainty that you’re expressing to her and the terms - you need more than simple fidelity -  will probably be a relief because I’m sure she feels it anyway. That’s why she’s trying so hard. 

Just don’t give up yet. GIve it a little longer. It doesn’t have to be perfect for a while and it doesn’t have to be decided right away. 

Besides, you can‘t date during a plague anyway. 

Anyway sorry this is so long - probably lots of repetition. I have confidence that you are already on the right road to figuring this out. 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by merrmeade

[TooLateNow]

Merrmeade, thank you for sharing. That is a lot to digest. 

Two things are certain: one, I will never give up, it is not in my nature; and two, I will NEVER have an affair, it is DEFINITELY not in my nature. 

I am also pretty certain she is now trying to be the perfect wife. She is doing pretty well at that now and has kept it up for at least eleven months totally consistently. I do not know if she is doing it for me, for herself, or for us, or some variable combination of those things. I will probably never know. I have asked her about it and even she seems unsure. I asked her why she did not do this before and she said she was stupid and selfish and took me for granted.

She has changed in other ways as well. Before if I had a difficult moment she would just feel sorry for herself. The last time this happened she apologized to me and tried to comfort me.

She also recently wrote me a long and detailed apology letter.

We have been married for 38 years (in April) and since we were eighteen. I do love her. It is just a different kind of love now. I think I was hoping to rekindle a brand new type fairytale love. I now believe that is unrealistic. I am working with my psychologist to adjust and deal with reality versus fantasy expectations. It makes me a little sad, but I can do this.

I have continued to try to be a great husband and try to improve every day. That helps me a lot. I do that for myself mostly but her as well. I have unrealistic expectations for myself and get very disappointed with myself if in my estimation I fail to be perfect. That has been great for me in business but not so much in other aspects of life. I am working on that as well.

If I can learn to be content with really good or pretty great instead of hoping for some unrealistic fantasy love and life I think I could be much happier. I am trying and getting professional help. It is just not easy.

Please stay safe and healthy and keep helping people like you are helping me.  

[merrmeade]

3 hours ago, TooLateNow said:

If I can learn to be content with really good or pretty great instead of hoping for some unrealistic fantasy love and life I think I could be much happier. I am trying and getting professional help. It is just not easy

That. I saw this therapist who follows dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) created by Marsha Linehan. i didn’t become an expert by any means but found it really helpful when she explained it. One aspect I really liked was this notion (and it has a name that escapes me) that you don’t have to choose all or nothing, perfection or nothing, black or white or the extremes of any duality. Life and people don’t usually get perfection. It is ok to be ok with some imperfection, some mediocrity, some lacking. especially In relationships. They’re always a project in the making

[preraph]

After a big sea change in a relationship, things just can't go back to what they originally were. I'm not sure that means that you throw away the relationship if it's working for you well enough. If you are to stay with her, two things will have to happen. 1, she will have to continue to be trustworthy and trying. 2, you will have to forgive her and move ahead without resentment dictating your behavior. I realize that could be a tall order.

[merrmeade]

And the other question, besides the many in my way too long essay, is have you discussed your  notions of “love”, being madly in love, passion, and the mature love of a long-term, exclusive relationships? 

You just have so many things going on here and I tried to address them all. But did you look up “limerence” as I suggested? That is not what you want. “Falling” in love and all the ways you say you want to feel are EXACTLY what a hormone-driven affair state always sounds like. Rapture in relationships has what basis? Love that grows, responds, appreciates, recognizes, gives without constant labeling between two people who know each other inside and out and are happy to know it, well, that’s what I want and more from there. What you describe that you think is missing sounds like teenager love to me. 
 

maybe it would help YOU to describe it. 

Edited March 29, 2020 by merrmeade

[TooLateNow]

9 minutes ago, preraph said:

you will have to forgive her and move ahead without resentment dictating your behavior. I realize that could be a tall order.

This is what I have been working on with my doctor.

At first my goal was to get rid of all resentment and all negative thoughts and feelings. I quickly learned that is impossible because no one can completely control their own mind and the thoughts, memories, and feelings that invade.

I came to realize, again because I have a great psychologist, that my real goal should be to learn how to deal with the negative thoughts, memories, and emotions without letting them lead me into words and actions that run counter to what I truly value and that would be destructive or counterproductive. I am working on that and getting much better at it. You are correct though that it is not always easy.

I also have to be careful about going to the other extreme of failing to express myself in a positive way and just “rugsweep,” which is what I did in the past to my own great emotional harm. It actually is my default and my tendency. It is a tricky balance.

The best thing I did to get to a better place in our marriage was to finally stand up for myself. The next best thing was to get a good psychologist for IC. Actually, if it were not for that doctor (and some of the folks on here) I never would have stood up for myself in the first place, so matter getting into IC was the best thing I did. 

[TooLateNow]

9 minutes ago, merrmeade said:

And the other question, besides the many in my way too long essay, is have you discussed your  notions of “love”, being madly in love, passion, and the mature love of a long-term, exclusive relationships? 

You just have so many things going on here and I tried to address them all. But did you look up “limerence” as I suggested? That is not what you want. “Falling” in love and all the ways you say you want to feel are EXACTLY what a hormone-driven affair state always sounds like. Rapture in relationships has what basis? Love that grows, responds, appreciates, recognizes, gives without constant labeling between two people who know each other inside and out and are happy to know it, well, that’s what I want and more from there. What you describe that you think is missing sounds like teenager love to me. 
 

maybe it would help YOU to describe it. 

I am familiar with limerence and did look it up again for a refresher.

I agree with you. I am adjusting my thinking accordingly. I do think we have or are at least developing a more mature love.

As far as “teenager love,” we started dating when we were seventeen and got married when we were eighteen. We literally started our relationship as teenagers in love. We thought we were more mature than we really were. I had already been living on my own for a few years when we met because my parents had kicked me out of there house as a young teen so I thought I was all grown up, but I definitely not emotionally mature.

At this point I think I need to grow up, get my head in the real world, and appreciate the good that I have and not pine for a fantasyland love feeling.

I also want to thank you. You are helpful to me. 

[preraph]

I really admire you that you're taking all avenues to try to deal with this. The good thing about it is no matter how it turns out, you will know you have tried all avenues and not have lingering doubt.

[merrmeade]

You’re still dealing with a lot, so don’t get too impatient. You’re trying to learn, but you don’t absorb it until you live it. You’re doing what you need to do 

[oldtruck]

keep in mind that recovery is a two to five year process.

your WW last affair was 20 years ago. however with you just getting

the full truth eleven months ago has caused your recovery clock to

be reset again to zero.

 

so now you are eleven months into this newest recovery process.

having the truth allows you to now, combined with your WW finally

doing the work has made you feel safe enough to feel anger at your

WW for the first time since any of your previous D days.

 

i do not remember your story. this is why when the story is being continued

it is better to stay on the old thread then to start a new thread. cannot look

back quickly to check the back story.

[TooLateNow]

My wife has a hard time discussing her affairs and my pain but she will do it if I ask.  I also have a difficult time because I hate to see her hurting.  She tries really hard to not do the pity party thing now, but it is still hard for her.  To make things easier for her, and me also to be honest, i suggested we write our thoughts and feelings down and then share them with each other. 

She recently wrote me another long and sincere apology letter and sent it in an email.  In it, she said she wants me to be happy and to be happy with her. 

I responded with a long email back to her.  After I sent it I felt it was a little too hard on her and I tried to get her to delete it before she read it.  She said that her not giving me the chance to share my feelings in the past caused a lot of damage and she felt she needed to read it.  I reluctantly agreed with her. 

Of course, she was a little hurt, but her response was to apologize to me again and to say that it was all so unfair to me. 

Anyway, here is the email I sent (with some deletions so we are not too easily identified by people who may know us).  Was I too harsh?  is there such a thing as being too honest?

You said you want me to be happy and be happy with you. 

To me, that seems like two different things. 

As far as being overall happy in general, I guess I am most of the time.  To me, that means being pleased with the overall general condition of my life.  I am pleased that I have a good career and I have my own office and people seem to respect me as a [occupation] and a person.  I am very pleased with our children and grandchildren and have a great time with them.  I am pleased that I have taken up [HOBBY] again and am very pleased with getting a lot of positive feedback.  I am pleased that I am doing fairly well healthwise and with my exercising and keeping in reasonably good shape for an older guy even if I am still a little overweight.  I am pleased that overall we are doing well financially and can do things that we want to do and be generous with others.  Of course, I still worry at times about money and other things, but I tend to be a bit of a worrier.

As far as being happy with you, that is a little more complicated. 

Most of the time now when we are together and doing things together I am happy.  I am now enjoying your company almost all of the time.  We do a lot of thigs together that I really enjoy, like travelling, taking walks, biking, doing puzzles, watching shows together, talking, hanging out, and so much more.  And it is not just that I enjoy doing these things, it is that I enjoy doing them with YOU.  I even like cooking and doing chores together because we are doing it TOGETHER.

And, of course, I love our sex life!!!

I am also pleased that you are now trying so hard to make me happy by doing nice things for me, treating me nicely, paying better attention to me, being a lot less controlling, and (hopefully) not lying (so much) to me anymore.  I am also pleased that you are finally not so utterly selfish and are trying so hard to understand my pain and are now finally actually trying to help me at least to some extent.

But to me this all seems very new.  While I am cautiously optimistic, I will need to see a long sustained effort on your part at all of this.  I feel like you failed miserably at this for the first approximately 38 years of our relationship (including STATE) and it has only been the past several months since you have changed (maybe since about October or November of 2019).  In my view, you spent about 38 years totally destroying me (largely maliciously and on purpose and some out of pure selfishness), and a little less than a year of good behavior cannot wipe that away and suddenly make me feel totally happy about us.  One thing that I have realized is that since it is highly unlikely that I will live another 37 years the result is that you will have spent far more years in our relationship being awful than you ever could being good to me even if you kept this up every day for the rest of my life.  Honestly, to me that sucks!

Sometimes you do or say things that upset me and trigger bad feelings from the past and sometimes my own thoughts or even dreams trigger me.  However, that does not happen too often anymore, and, as far as the past, I feel like I am very much over any anger or resentment.  I just do not have those feelings anymore, and I believe I have totally forgiven you for the past, and that is huge progress to me.  Generally, any negative feelings from thinking about the past are mostly sadness, which unfortunately can be quite overwhelming at times.  Sometimes this leads to regret about being with you and putting up with what you put me through but not too much anymore.  It is mostly just the occasional overwhelming sadness which hurts so badly that sometimes I just cannot hold back the tears.  That is very hard for me as I HATE being emotional and I just cannot get that under control (although I think it is improving and obviously some of that is because of the unbearable grief of losing DAUGHTER).

I do mourn the fact that I believe you destroyed the strong romantic feelings of love I had for you that were once to the point of almost worshipping you.  Just like I think it took so long for you to understand the depth of my pain and maybe you never will fully understand it, I think you also do not understand the depth of the love I had for you and also probably never will.  Sometimes when we are having a good time together or even sometimes just looking at you, I feel those type of strong romantic feelings again, but honestly and sadly they just do not usually last that long.  I want them to last forever, but they just do not. 

On the other extreme, sometimes I feel so overwhelmingly sad about what you put me through I almost regret ever meeting you.  Sometimes I recall my old feelings of thinking you were so special and that we together were so special having an almost fairytale kind of love, and then I realize that you were not that special and neither were we together or our love.  You were just a run of the mill selfish, lying, cheater and I was a fool to believe what I believed.  I know you insist now that you always loved me, but I will never believe that and I believe you are really just kidding yourself probably so you can feel better about yourself. But those types of feelings are very rare now and usually do not last very long either. 

So those are my extremes.  Most of the time now I feel happy that we are together, happy that you are now trying so hard, and satisfied with our relationship overall.  I understand that is probably not every woman’s dream for their marriage and they hope for something far better, but this is your fault and your doing.  I am trying my best to get somewhere better in my overall feelings, but I just cannot seem to get there and I may never get there (although maybe I am getting closer).

If you can sustain your current excellent way of treating me and do not screw up again, I will stay as I promised.  I do care about you and do not want to hurt you.  I also always want to be a man of integrity whose word is his bond.  I would also not want to upset our children or grandchildren.  I also do not want to be alone or to try start over with someone else (which I would probably never do even if we are not together).  I also do not ever want to have to explain any of this to anyone (other than maybe a psychologist again if necessary) because it is humiliating and emasculating to me.

As far as loving you, I do, just not in the same way as before, at least not most of the time.  When I feel that love strongly, I try to tell you.  But sometimes when you say it to me first it is hard for me to say it back to you.  Sometimes it makes me want to cry and sometimes it just feels awkward.  Sometimes it makes me feel stupid and like a fool.  I hope you can understand that and be patient.  I always feel guilty when I cannot repeat it, but sometimes I just cannot make the words come out of my mouth even if I want to say it.  I am sorry about that.  I am trying very hard to show you that I do love you by doing nice and loving things, but it is just difficult to say sometimes.  I want to be a great husband and make you feel great, but I am extremely damaged now and all I can do is my best.

Edited June 9, 2020 by TooLateNow

[pepperbird]

some feel that the psychological damage that a BS can experience is similar in some ways to PTSD.
All I know is I sent a lot of years waiting for the other shoe to drop. Waiting for him to cheat again.
As far as I know, he didn't.
I don't know about other BS, I only know myself. Part of the recovery was accepting that neither of us would even be the same as we were before. We would always carry our scars and we had to learn how to love and trust each other again.
I know it may sound strange, but we had to get to know each other all over again.

[JS84]

Your letter was a hell of a lot nicer than mine would have been.

[usa1ah]

Why in the world did you stay?

 

She cheats several times. 
 

Then she treats you like s*** for many years during and after the last affair. 
 

Why did you not leave her? Why do you want the loving feeling back after she showed you what she actually thought of you? 
 

Sounds like you enjoy the pain. 

[DKT3]

11 minutes ago, usa1ah said:

Why in the world did you stay?

 

She cheats several times. 
 

Then she treats you like s*** for many years during and after the last affair. 
 

Why did you not leave her? Why do you want the loving feeling back after she showed you what she actually thought of you? 
 

Sounds like you enjoy the pain. 

Codependency and fear. If my memory is correct OP is roughly 58-59 and has been with his wife 40 years. It's hard to mature as an individual when you've been together your entire adulthood,  that creates codependency.  Almost as importantly,  the fear. He doesn't know anything else,  with retirement around the corner I can only imagine how difficult it is to think about starting over.  I'm sure the idea of his wife is far more comforting then not. The problem is he no longer loves his wife and is trying to force it.

[usa1ah]

Unbelievable, I just read your message to your wife. Just damn, can not see any redeeming qualities in her for you to have stayed in a living hell for 38 years. 
 

Best of luck, I just can’t think of any advice. I would say think back to the good memories from before she cheated. Can you even remember them?

[usa1ah]

10 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

Codependency and fear. If my memory is correct OP is roughly 58-59 and has been with his wife 40 years. It's hard to mature as an individual when you've been together your entire adulthood,  that creates codependency.  Almost as importantly,  the fear. He doesn't know anything else,  with retirement around the corner I can only imagine how difficult it is to think about starting over.  I'm sure the idea of his wife is far more comforting then not. The problem is he no longer loves his wife and is trying to force it.

So he only had 2 good years before she started having sex with others. So no real good memories at all

[DKT3]

22 minutes ago, usa1ah said:

So he only had 2 good years before she started having sex with others. So no real good memories at all

If I had to bet, I would place money on him only knowing a faction of what his wife was up to over the past 4 decades, like 1/32. She was horrendous as he described it, and only got it together after he told her to leave.