I (BS) Lost that Loving Feeling. Want it Back

[Buffer]

13 hours ago, TooLateNow said:

I am doing well. We just got to Vegas last night for a week of fun!  Thanks for asking and being helpful and supportive and an all around good guy!

Vegas, A city or churches and museums? Ha ha!!!

De stress and take time for you. 
 Buffer 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Buffer
Spelling

[merrmeade]

On 6/10/2020 at 5:38 PM, TooLateNow said:

"I do care about you and do not want to hurt you."

"I also always want to be a man of integrity whose word is his bond." ...  I do not base my morality on the morality of others. I do not give myself a pass to break my word and lessen my integrity just because someone else did. ...  I have always valued my word and my integrity and do not plan to change that ever.

"I would also not want to upset our children or grandchildren."  My children and grandchildren would be devastated if we split up, especially if they discovered what she had done.  I could not bear that.  We are very close as a family. 

"I also do not want to be alone or to try start over with someone else (which I would probably never do even if we are not together)." ...  I really would not pursue another relationship ... because this one was way too hard.  ... I think that is broken beyond repair in me.

"I also do not ever want to have to explain any of this to anyone (other than maybe a psychologist again if necessary) because it is humiliating ..."  I think if I left there would have to be some kind of explanation, and I do not want anyone to know about this.  It is completely humiliating to me. 

TooLateNow,

Your reasons were exactly the same as mine except for the first one. When I realized what he’d done, for five years I was pretty much stumbling around in shock and disbelief. Once out of the fog, however, (with the help of antidepressants and therapy) I really and truly did not care about him. He was a worthless piece of sh-t who did not deserve me, and I did not expect jacksh-t in return (and did not get it). I did not care whether he was hurt, happy or anything else. He’d destroyed my genuineness. But I certainly wasn't’ going to go out of my way to hurt him. That simply wasn’t a need or impulse. 

All the rest were also my reasons for staying. Some people might call it lazy which it is and also too tired and disillusioned to hope or try at this stage in life to start over with someone new. Nor did I ever consider cheating or lying myself. Like you, my integrity is kind of inextricable and unchangeable. Anyway, as you also note the sex getting better is not a small tradeoff. And the prospect of breaking the hearts of my children and grandchildren and complicating their holidays and celebrations forever hereafter was a real deal-breaker - even if it’s not me that caused the chain of events.  

 

 

[merrmeade]

I must add that I got past that stage of indifferent virulence. Or maybe it was virulent indifference. Either way, he could no longer hurt me AND he would never again be off my radar. As my feelings resolved, we first became friends again and then tenderness has continued to fill the spaces and soften the hardness without making me vulnerable. There’s no other way, so I suppose it IS starting over for both of us. 

Just saying - don’t apologize to us, yourself or to her for being exactly who you are. You ARE doing this your way and I don’t think you’ll regret it for that very reason - being true to yourself.

Edited June 20, 2020 by merrmeade

[TooLateNow]

Merrmeade,

You are my hero. You get me.

I have to be “me,” even though I know that sometime “me” is a big stupid dummy in most people’s eyes, even my own eyes sometimes. 

I am proud of myself and I hate myself sometimes for being “me,” sometimes at the same time. 
 

Your words help so much .

I have forgiven her.  It is often hard to forgive myself. 

[Buffer]

Forgive yourself brother, then forgive her.

take care.

buffer

[TooLateNow]

3 hours ago, Buffer said:

Forgive yourself brother, then forgive her.

take care.

buffer

I have forgiven her. 
 

I do not see me forgiving myself. 
 

By the way, thanks for messaging me. I appreciate your concern. 
 

And Vegas was awesome!  We had a great time. She booked a kayaking trip for us on the Colorado, among other fun activities. I did come out a little behind in blackjack, but I had fun playing. 

[Buffer]

How is it going after the relaxing trip?

Buffer

[TooLateNow]

6 hours ago, Buffer said:

How is it going after the relaxing trip?

Buffer

Hi Buffer,

Thanks for checking in with me.
 

Things continue to go great with my wife. She is like an entirely different person now and continues to be 100% consistent. 
 

She understands that I do not have the same level of love or passion for her as she does for me now. It is like she has finally reached a new relationship kind of love but that is long gone for me and I have accepted I can not realistically expect to get back there at this point and am not inclined to allow myself to be that vulnerable again emotionally anyway.  
 

She also accepts that sometimes it is just too hard for me to say “I love you” back to her when she says it to me, which is now multiple times a day.

 

She understands that I am content with the current state of our relationship but extremely disappointed with all the horrible years that preceded this. She wants me to be “happy” about our marriage but knows “content” or “satisfied” is about as good as it will likely ever get, acknowledges that is her fault, and does not whine about it but still tries to help me feel better about us by her actions. 
 

She acknowledges everything she did to destroy me and our marriage and apologizes often. She goes above and beyond every day to try to make  it up to me and accepts that she can never fully repair the damage but still is trying her best to do what she can. 
 

I continue to try to be the best husband I can be and do as much as I can to make her life and our time together good. She says often now that she does not deserve me or how I spoil her. She probably doesn’t but I prefer not to repay past evil with evil. It makes me feel good to do good and that is just who I am for better or worse. 
 

Now if I have a bad trigger or an overwhelming negative thought or emotion overcomes me I say so and we discuss it. She is always supportive and apologetic now when it occurs. At this point I usually only bring it up if the tools I learned from my psychologist to deal with such things just are not cutting it. Sometimes she notices before I say anything and makes an effort to comfort me. She now always ask if I want to talk about it. Sometimes I do but sometimes I want to wait and talk later when it will be more likely our discussion will be more productive. 
 

I am still cautiously optimistic. She knows she needs to be consistent and she knows I am still a little skeptical. I understand she could be acting out of fear but I do not think so. She could also get tired of her current good behavior, especially if she is not as sincere as she seems to be and especially since she knows I cannot at this point match her level of love (even though I continue to treat her VERY well). Time will tell. 
 

I do not want to live or wallow in pain anymore. That is not good for my physical or emotional health. My doctor is helping me with this and I am getting better. I thought I would be miserable forever but now it looks like my golden years could truly be golden. I am excited about that prospect but remain a little skeptical as I am somewhat of a cynic and pessimist. Working on that, too. 
 

Overall, I would say things are good and the future looks bright for us. 
 

Thanks for caring and helping. You, like many others on here, are, in my view, one of the good ones. 

[merrmeade]

Wow, TLN. You really cannot expect any more than that and THAT is a lot. You are both as open and honest about your thoughts and feelings as you are able to be while being aware and responsive to the other person’s behavior and what may be causing it. Most important (to me), your wife consistently acts from a position of acknowledgement. She acknowledges the pain and mistrust you’ve experienced and the fact that she caused it. By telling you so often that she loves you while recognizing your hesitation to reciprocate with apparent understanding AND acceptance, to me, is the main indication of true remorse. I only know what you tell us, but it’s a good sign that she feels the all-important “genuine remorse,” which stands on its own. If she can continue to accept that she is reaping the results of HER actions and that - no matter what happens, no matter what you do about it - she is and will always be responsible. She has no right to expect anything from you. She simply must wait, be sensitive, patient, understanding and unselfishly caring; give you space; and give you time.  If that is what you are seeing and feeling from her, then I am impressed and hopeful for HER. Regardless of what you do, she is on the road to being a better person that she can respect and live with, the main element (for both of you) being that it is now up to you completely, wholly, 100%. She can only wait and hope. 

And as far as that goes - what you do about her betrayal which IS a reality forever - I hope you will give it time, but that’s because I’m less idealistic. You must do what’s important for you which, at the end of the day, may STILL be having that “loving feeling.” I’m just suggesting you agree to yourself to revisit the question at some date in the future. It seems you’ve converted your panic and frustration that it may never be like it was to a provisional acceptance - kind of agreeing to put it on hold.

Just don’t forget your thread topic.Your need to have all the feelings that go along with an unsullied marriage with no history of betrayal may not go away, and you have every right to those feelings. If things haven’t changed, at some point you do NOT have to decide to continue with this compromise. 

Your choice.

[merrmeade]

That was a bit disorganized, needs editing and so kind of makes a lot of points, some of which may seem contradictory. They’re not if you accept that your expectations for each moment can only be as much as circumstances and people can deliver. Every moment is relative to that moment. It takes time to change. I’m saying that she’s doing all the right things to become a better person. You are doing the best you can to allow this current set of circumstances to play out. You two are doing fantastically for what you’ve been through - much, much better than I (and my husband) did. 

But I forgot about another question I had which may make all what I just said irrelevant. What the hell do you mean by “forgive myself”??? What did you do anyway?

This question is in reference to posts on June 20, 21. 

[TooLateNow]

1 hour ago, merrmeade said:

That was a bit disorganized, needs editing and so kind of makes a lot of points, some of which may seem contradictory. They’re not if you accept that your expectations for each moment can only be as much as circumstances and people can deliver. Every moment is relative to that moment. It takes time to change. I’m saying that she’s doing all the right things to become a better person. You are doing the best you can to allow this current set of circumstances to play out. You two are doing fantastically for what you’ve been through - much, much better than I (and my husband) did. 

But I forgot about another question I had which may make all what I just said irrelevant. What the hell do you mean by “forgive myself”??? What did you do anyway?

This question is in reference to posts on June 20, 21. 

Hi,

You are awesome and helpful to me.

I understood your points and appreciate your comments.  I like that you are realistic but also hopeful.

I plan to revisit my original topic over time, that is, getting back that loving feeling.  She is trying so hard and doing so well I really want to get there but do not want to give in to my bad habit of expecting the impossible to happen.  To me, it is like the frustration of a truck that will not quite start.  You want it to start, and try to start it,  and hear it turning over and not quite getting there, and you keep trying but it just will not start.  Then there is the frustration of being so close but not succeeding.  I guess when that happens you look under the hood and fix it you can, get professional help if necessary, and junk it if it cannot be fixed or at least fixed for a cost that makes sense.  I tried to fix myself and our marriage and failed, mostly because I was not really doing much except struggle in my own head about it.  Now I am getting professional help (and I got a lot of help on here).  I am hoping we can get our relationship fixed and it seems to be heading in the right direction.  I clearly do not want to junk it and hope I never do as I am not good at quitting on things, not even lost causes.

There are a number of things I have trouble forgiving myself for. 

In our relationship, it is the fact that I let her do what she did without consequence and without standing up for myself for almost forty years. I caused myself a lot of pain and damage by letting her stonewall me and abuse me and just taking it.  I often feel weak and stupid because of that, and that is not the type of person I have ever been outside of my relationship with her.  I am embarrassed and ashamed of myself for that and I am having a hard time forgiving myself although my psychologist is helping me a lot to understand that it is not really entirely my fault and it is in the past and is helping me learn to get over that and learn from it and move on from it without ignoring it.

As far as how I have treated my wife I have nothing to forgive myself for.  I have always treated her as a princess and she says the same.  She considers herself to be very spoiled.  Even when I finally stood up for myself I was firm but still relatively calm and rational.  When I was younger and treated others badly I never treated her badly.  She actually made me want to be a better person and had a big role in my transformation to a good person. That is part of the reason she feels so badly now because I have never ever treated her badly.

Outside of our relationship, I have a hard time forgiving myself for very terrible things I did eons ago as a young person.  I am not that person any longer and have not been for many, many, many years. In fact, I do a lot of volunteer work and help a lot of people outside of my work, my work itself is entirely devoted to helping people, and I give generously not only to charitable causes but also to individuals in need whenever I can.  But in my mind none of that changes the fact that long ago and far away I did a LOT of very destructive things that caused serious physical and mental and emotional harm to a LOT of people.  I was truly a monster, a rageaholic (if that is a word). I am working with my psychologist on this and it is tough going.  Honestly and sadly I am making little progress on that. 

We are also working on my extreme grief over my youngest daughter dying about six years ago when she was 21.  I am making progress there, but still have waves of grief and depression that overtake me to the point of uncontrollable emotion.  Prior to her death, I did not ever express emotion as my parents beat that out of me when i was a child (hence my youth rage, violence, and drug issues).  But once the floodgates opened I have been unable to close them.  Her death was the catalyst for a lot of reflection on my life and major changes in my life, and that has included reevaluating my marriage and getting to where we are today.

I also have a ten year old grandson who has been battling cancer for 8 1/2 years.  The ups and downs and surgeries and chemo and experimental treatments have been terrible to handle emotionally.  

So, I have a lot of issues, but I am getting help.

[merrmeade]

Oh my dear TLN, yes, you DO get a big margin for those issues. And my heart goes out to you for your grief and suffering at such tragedy. Of course, it should be noted that your wife’s behavior would have been influenced by the same issues (which does not diminish responsibility for her betrayal of you one iota).

But PLEASE demote forgiving yourself from second place on your list of things to work on. The only thing you mentioned that I’d give you permission to hang onto - if I were your Conscience - would be any damage you might have done if, indeed, you had such an out-of-control temper in the past as you describe. You can own that one, apologize to anyone it disrespected or injured, but leave the person you were then in the past. You are not that person now. That person is gone just because we are changing every moment. Still, you carry the accountability for past actions so you don’t repeat them. but you can’t hate yourself for who you were in the past. Just what you did. 

I imagine you have learned a lot about yourself and your choices as a result of all these momentous events, and there is much to love and feel good about. You can only get better. Think about that, too. I think that’s forgiveness of the self in a way. 

[colingrant]

Quote

In our relationship, it is the fact that I let her do what she did without consequence and without standing up for myself for almost forty years. I caused myself a lot of pain and damage by letting her stonewall me and abuse me and just taking it.  I often feel weak and stupid because of that, and that is not the type of person I have ever been outside of my relationship with her.  I am embarrassed and ashamed of myself for that and I am having a hard time forgiving myself although my psychologist is helping me a lot to understand that it is not really entirely my fault and it is in the past and is helping me learn to get over that and learn from it and move on from it without ignoring it.

One thing you can do is look forward (years) and see if there's anything you're doing today that will make you even more pained and damaged in the future and curtail it. discontinue it. 

[oldtruck]

toolatenow, you reached the anger stage. it took many years to reach this stage. usually 

happens 6 months after D day and this phase lasts for about 6 months.

 

at this point you know everything that you want to know about WW's cheating.

talking about it now only keeps those memories alive instead of them fading

and being forgotten. a BH cannot heal picking the scab, constantly.

 

you have reached the age of grandkids, paid off house, good income, retirement

set up, and a wife that is now an envy to have. You cannot resist sex with her and

nothing wrong with that. You are set up to have your last 20 years alive to be a

great life. There is nothing to gain divorcing your WW now for what happened

20 years ago. You enjoy each others company.

 

stop talking about the past, there is nothing to gain, you have done it long enough.

rejoice that your WW has returned to you and enjoy your good life. your WW 

cannot undo her mistakes, and you cannot undo your mistakes handling being

cheated on. Do not waste more life on the past when you are in great place now.

[TooLateNow]

Hi Oldtruck,

 

Thanks for posting.

 

"toolatenow, you reached the anger stage. it took many years to reach this stage. usually 

happens 6 months after D day and this phase lasts for about 6 months."

 

I am past the anger stage.

 

"at this point you know everything that you want to know about WW's cheating.

talking about it now only keeps those memories alive instead of them fading

and being forgotten. a BH cannot heal picking the scab, constantly."

 

It is true that I know all I want to know.  I agree that obsessing about it is not productive and I try not to do that.  However, I do not agree that the memories (or feelings) can ever be "forgotten."  That is not my experience with this or any other strong memories or feelings from my life.  I also do not think it is the experience or opinion of anyone or much of anyone who has been cheated on, at least not based on all the stories and posts I have read.  Also, my psychologist has told me that I cannot control the thoughts that come into my head and what I need to do is to learn how to deal with them in the most productive way possible.  I have been doing that and it helps a lot.

 

"you have reached the age of grandkids, paid off house, good income, retirement

set up, and a wife that is now an envy to have. You cannot resist sex with her and

nothing wrong with that. You are set up to have your last 20 years alive to be a

great life. There is nothing to gain divorcing your WW now for what happened

20 years ago. You enjoy each others company."

 

I agree with all of this, except I may not live another 20 years.  Men in my family rarely make it past 65 at best.  My doctor (medical doctor) says we are going to change that. However, despite exercising every day, eating pretty healthy, and now being back to having virtually no alcohol (I had completely quit drinking for decades but when my youngest daughter died I did start drinking again and am having a hard time completely quitting again), I am still a type 2 diabetic (well controlled for the most part) with issues with high blood pressure and high cholesterol (also well controlled).  We will see I guess.

 

"stop talking about the past, there is nothing to gain, you have done it long enough.

 

This is where you are incorrect.  I was forbidden by my wife to talk about it at all for decades.  It caused me tremendous emotional damage.  I held it in for decades and suffered as a result.  We have only been talking about this for less than a year.  Talking about it has brought great healing for me and also caused my wife to finally get it, stop abusing me emotionally, and change her selfish ways and finally start helping me heal.  At this point, we do not talk about it very much, but when we do it helps and she is fine with it and even brings it up herself sometimes, especially if she thinks I am struggling.  I will never stifle myself again as I learned the hard way that is a terrible idea that brings terrible results.

 

rejoice that your WW has returned to you and enjoy your good life. your WW 

cannot undo her mistakes, and you cannot undo your mistakes handling being

cheated on. Do not waste more life on the past when you are in great place now."

 

I agree with almost all of this.  However, if you are aware of a magical way to pretend like the past never happened and to make your mind never have memories or feelings from the past, I would love to be enlightened.  I think it is impossible, and so does my psychologist, and I bet most people on here who have been victims of cheaters who also emotionally abused them for many, many, many years would agree with me and my doctor.  Sorry for being a little sarcastic and snippy, but these kinds of statements really strike a nerve.  It insinuates that I am failing at the "just get over it" impossible task and makes me feel like a loser for that, and I am no longer willing to accept that type of thinking.

 

Anyway, I do appreciate your posting and your desire to help and there is some good stuff in your post.  I just do not agree 100%.

[usa1ah]

I think your wife has realized what she has done finally. I think she is doing everything in her power to make you happy to insure you don’t leave her. She knows she ruined it and now doesn’t want you walking away. 

I hope the best for you and her. Would like an update a year from now to see if it continues.

 

[merrmeade]

3 hours ago, TooLateNow said:

rejoice that your WW has returned to you and enjoy your good life. your WW 

cannot undo her mistakes, and you cannot undo your mistakes handling being

cheated on. Do not waste more life on the past when you are in great place now."

I agree with almost all of this.  However, if you are aware of a magical way to pretend like the past never happened and to make your mind never have memories or feelings from the past, I would love to be enlightened.  I think it is impossible, and so does my psychologist, and I bet most people on here who have been victims of cheaters who also emotionally abused them for many, many, many years would agree with me and my doctor.  Sorry for being a little sarcastic and snippy, but these kinds of statements really strike a nerve.  It insinuates that I am failing at the "just get over it" impossible task and makes me feel like a loser for that, and I am no longer willing to accept that type of thinking.

Anyway, I do appreciate your posting and your desire to help and there is some good stuff in your post.  I just do not agree 100%.

That about says it for me. It's exactly what I was thinking as I read his post. 

SO-O-O-O many people say things like this - get over it, forgive, move on. It's simply not a matter of will. You're not choosing these feelings, and you can't just replace them with different feelings. There's no one thing you can say, do or think that will create closure or change. It's many moments of insight, each one building on the one before and time.

You've discovered that this other person is not who you thought she was. It's not like she suddenly changed and became capable of adultery. You have to take each understanding back through your lives and realize what you didn't see the first time. And while you're reprocessing past reality, you're dealing with change in the present. You've agreed to start over with this person who tricked you over and over in the past and now is supposed to be all open and transparent. 

[oldtruck]

10 hours ago, TooLateNow said:

 

 

I am past the anger stage.

i assumed you were past the anger phase

Quote

It is true that I know all I want to know.  I agree that obsessing about it is not productive and I try not to do that.  However, I do not agree that the memories (or feelings) can ever be "forgotten."  That is not my experience with this or any other strong memories or feelings from my life.  I also do not think it is the experience or opinion of anyone or much of anyone who has been cheated on, at least not based on all the stories and posts I have read.  Also, my psychologist has told me that I cannot control the thoughts that come into my head and what I need to do is to learn how to deal with them in the most productive way possible.  I have been doing that and it helps a lot.

better word then forget, fade. talking about the affair keeps those memories from fading.

as those memories fade they recalled less, the triggers become fewer and farther apart

and they disappear as fast as they appeared.

Quote

I agree with all of this, except I may not live another 20 years.  Men in my family rarely make it past 65 at best.  My doctor (medical doctor) says we are going to change that. However, despite exercising every day, eating pretty healthy, and now being back to having virtually no alcohol (I had completely quit drinking for decades but when my youngest daughter died I did start drinking again and am having a hard time completely quitting again), I am still a type 2 diabetic (well controlled for the most part) with issues with high blood pressure and high cholesterol (also well controlled).  We will see I guess.

change 20 years to last years. more important then the number of years is the quality of those years.

Quote

This is where you are incorrect.  I was forbidden by my wife to talk about it at all for decades.  It caused me tremendous emotional damage.  I held it in for decades and suffered as a result.  We have only been talking about this for less than a year.  Talking about it has brought great healing for me and also caused my wife to finally get it, stop abusing me emotionally, and change her selfish ways and finally start helping me heal.  At this point, we do not talk about it very much, but when we do it helps and she is fine with it and even brings it up herself sometimes, especially if she thinks I am struggling.  I will never stifle myself again as I learned the hard way that is a terrible idea that brings terrible results.

my wife would not talk about it for decades as well. i have gotten very little information.

now when i mention something i only get i do not remembers. you got all your questions answered.

you were abused in the past. you are now in the present. impacting your future. your WW 

affair and not talking about it abused you. there reaches a point were talking about the affair

hurts you and your WW healing.

 

Quote

I agree with almost all of this.  However, if you are aware of a magical way to pretend like the past never happened and to make your mind never have memories or feelings from the past, I would love to be enlightened.  I think it is impossible, and so does my psychologist, and I bet most people on here who have been victims of cheaters who also emotionally abused them for many, many, many years would agree with me and my doctor.  Sorry for being a little sarcastic and snippy, but these kinds of statements really strike a nerve.  It insinuates that I am failing at the "just get over it" impossible task and makes me feel like a loser for that, and I am no longer willing to accept that type of thinking.

 

Anyway, I do appreciate your posting and your desire to help and there is some good stuff in your post.  I just do not agree 100%.

there is no way to make the affair or those memories to disappear.

i have shown you the way to minimize them, make triggers happen less often and farther apart.

then have the triggers disappear as fast as they appeared. just the way they popped into

to your head they are gone as quick.

 

There is no point to keep talking about the affair once a BS knows everything unless one

wants to keep those memories fresh and the pain as well. you have been talking about

this with your WW for a year. I would assume you have asked everything that you wanted

to know. Asked, re-asked, asked to clarify and then asked to re-clarify. Examined her

answers inside and out.

 

How many times to read a book to grasp it?

Edited July 15, 2020 by oldtruck

[understand50]

OK, this may help.....

A while back, I sat my wife down and told her, that as she just was not going to fourth coming, I gave her what I believed happened.  I think I have come close.  She, did not give any more information, nor did she dispute what I stated.  This is now the "official" story, and when she decides to dispute it, I state this is what I know, if you have more to tell, please do so.    I do not think, you should keep badgering your wife, and even when I was actively trying to get at the truth, I did not let this affect all our interactions.  IE:, you can not be mad 24/7, it is just not healthy, nor can you keep it up.  So, unless more information comes about.  It does from time to time.  I do not bring up her cheating.  DO not use it against her in arguments.  After all, what I am upset about just happened.  Spending, house cleaning so fourth, in other words normal living together stuff.   This has allowed us to stay together, and also have some good time to build upon. 

Now, am I still angry?   Yup, part of me always will be.  Do I know everything?  No, but I know enough to realize she has not been faithful during parts of our marriage.  As I have decided to stay, and close out my life with her, it does not make sense to keep living together  hard.  

 

 

[TooLateNow]

Oldtruck, part of your last post included the following:

 

"there is no way to make the affair or those memories to disappear.

i have shown you the way to minimize them, make triggers happen less often and farther apart.

then have the triggers disappear as fast as they appeared. just the way they popped into

to your head they are gone as quick."

 

I agree with the first part but not the rest.  I do not recall you showing the way to do any of the things you mentioned.  All I got from you is to just stop talking about negative memories and feelings.  From my experience, just holding it in and keeping quiet like a good little BS does not help in any way.

 

And this:

"There is no point to keep talking about the affair once a BS knows everything unless one

wants to keep those memories fresh and the pain as well. you have been talking about

this with your WW for a year. I would assume you have asked everything that you wanted

to know. Asked, re-asked, asked to clarify and then asked to re-clarify. Examined her

answers inside and out."

 

I do not think it has been a full year, but I may be wrong.  But that is not that important.  I believe the fallacy in your position is that it implies if you do not talk about a particular trauma it will disappear from your memory or at least mostly disappear from your memory.  You also appear to imply that I am asking again and again about the sexual aspects of the affairs (not one but three separate affairs).  That is an incorrect assumption. I am not asking about that.  I have that information or at least all she can remember.  When we talk, which is not that often honestly, it is about how I am feeling and what is happening in my mind and often nightmares.  It is not about the affairs' sexual details, it is about the effects that the betrayal, deception, lies, selfishness, abuse, prior rug sweeping, etc. are having on me NOW and in the moment.  Also, at this point she brings it up more than I do.

 

And this:

"How many times to read a book to grasp it?"

 

Again, I do not think you understand the substance of the conversations we have at this point.  In any event, to answer your question, I would say it depends on the complexity and importance of the book.  If it is a simple book and a light read or easy to grasp or for a momentary escape into a book, probably just once unless I really love it and want to experience it again.  However, if it is more complex and/or more important book, I may read it several times to make sure I fully grasp all the complexities and give it the significance it deserves.  For example, in my undergrad and especially graduate studies, there were books and other written materials I read over numerous times to fully grasp and I sometimes even sought secondary sources to gain even greater understanding, and that habit led to me graduating with highest honors.  Also, when I was an aircraft mechanic you better believe I read the technical manuals over and over because pilots' lives were in my hands.  Fully understanding what happened with my wife so it can be avoided in the future and dealing with the extreme trauma she put me through may not literally be life or death, but pretty damn close in my mind.  And I am not dealing with a ONS, which I am sure is awful and difficult also, but three separate affairs, two of which were long, and one of which led to her leaving me without even leaving a note (although she returned that same day because the OM did not want a real relationship with her, just a piece of ass now and then).  That is complex enough and then you have to throw in the decades of deception and lies and abuse.  It is just not a simple matter of have a couple of short talks and get on with it.

[TooLateNow]

5 hours ago, understand50 said:

OK, this may help.....

A while back, I sat my wife down and told her, that as she just was not going to fourth coming, I gave her what I believed happened.  I think I have come close.  She, did not give any more information, nor did she dispute what I stated.  This is now the "official" story, and when she decides to dispute it, I state this is what I know, if you have more to tell, please do so.    I do not think, you should keep badgering your wife, and even when I was actively trying to get at the truth, I did not let this affect all our interactions.  IE:, you can not be mad 24/7, it is just not healthy, nor can you keep it up.  So, unless more information comes about.  It does from time to time.  I do not bring up her cheating.  DO not use it against her in arguments.  After all, what I am upset about just happened.  Spending, house cleaning so fourth, in other words normal living together stuff.   This has allowed us to stay together, and also have some good time to build upon. 

Now, am I still angry?   Yup, part of me always will be.  Do I know everything?  No, but I know enough to realize she has not been faithful during parts of our marriage.  As I have decided to stay, and close out my life with her, it does not make sense to keep living together  hard.  

 

 

Thank you for your input.  I really do appreciate your effort to help.  However, there are a few points on which I do not agree. 

I am definitely not "badgering" my wife.  As I mentioned in responding to Oldtruck, it does not come up very often at this point and she brings it up more often than me at this point.  Likewise, we are not discussing the sexual details of the affairs.  We are beyond that.  we are only talking about the effects of the trauma on me today as it occurs and only if one of us brings it up and that is usually her at this point.

Also, I am not "mad 24/7."  In fact, I am way beyond the angry stage.  And when I am feeling a little upset about my nightmares or feelings or memories, I always wait until that passes before discussing it with her if I even do at all.  Sometimes I just process it myself using the tools my psychologist taught me and then do not need to discuss it with my wife.  Also, sometimes she asks me if I want to talk and I will tell her "not now" if I think I need to first process it myself and that failing to do so would make me speak to her in anything other than a calm and rational manner.

Also, I never use her cheating against her in arguments.  Indeed, we rarely argue, especially at this point where she is being a model wife.  I am really not a hostile or argumentative person at all and especially not with her.  I have been nothing but loving and kind to her our entire lives together and have spoiled her rotten, which she herself has always and stills says to this day.  

I do not do anything to keep "living together hard."  As noted above, I still spoil her.  I do everything I can think of to be a great husband to her.  The absolute worst thing I ever did to her was insist that she stop lying to me and abusing me.  She agreed with me and she has stopped and is actually thankful that I helped open her eyes.

[TooLateNow]

15 hours ago, merrmeade said:

You've agreed to start over with this person who tricked you over and over in the past and now is supposed to be all open and transparent. 

I so totally agree with you on this and it is part of what is very hard for me. My wife started to "get it" about a year ago and then began being consistently great some months ago.  She understands that a tremendous amount of damage has been done over a very long period of time but she stills hopes that this current good behavior will fix everything quickly and gets disappointed when I still sometimes have difficulty and am not to the point she is in affection.  I sometimes have to remind her how well she fooled me for so long and how many times she looked me right in the eye and very convincingly lied to my face.  She knows and acknowledges that and understands why it is hard for me to feel totally safe and why I am not suddenly doing handstands and cartwheels and singing silly love songs. It is hard for her that I do not feel ready to be totally vulnerable at this time although she does understand why and knows it is the consequences of her own actions.

[DKT3]

I don't think I agree with not bringing it up.  Here is where I am. I have accepted that I will never know everything, she simply doesn't remember everything.  I don't hound her about stuff for two reasons 1) I'm really just over it, it happened we've worked on our issues individually and together  2) she has been honest with me,  she still volunteers information as she remembers.  Usually something like this "I remembered something from that period would you like me to share?" My response is not really unless you just have to tell me.

However there has been a few times, most recently over a year ago that something kinda doesn't sit well and I will ask. Again she is open and honest about it.

Point I'm getting at is, if your WS has firmly rejoined your team it doesn't cause an issue to bring up the affair.  If your WS is still getting upset and being vague about information then is that something you really want to stay involved in?

I'm not sold on your wife, Im wondering what happens after a period of time when you're still not there? Does she just say F it and reverse back to old form?

[TooLateNow]

1 hour ago, DKT3 said:Point I'm getting at is, if your WS has firmly rejoined your team it doesn't cause an issue to bring up the affair.  If your WS is still getting upset and being vague about information then is that something you really want to stay involved in?

I'm not sold on your wife, Im wondering what happens after a period of time when you're still not there? Does she just say F it and reverse back to old form?

I believe she has rejoined the team, she does not get upset if I want to talk about it, and she now brings it up more than I do. It is not that often, usually if I seem off she wil check on me. Honestly, I am just as likely to be hurting about our daughter who died or our grandson with cancer as the affairs and abuse. In fact those things get to me more often than my issues with her past behavior. 
 

And I wonder the same thing you wonder. I do still treat her extremely well and I hope that will make a difference. I also hope my feelings for her intensify as she continues to be consistently amazing, maybe not like new relationship love but a stronger romantic love and closer to where she is. That is why I am cautiously optimistic and not letting myself be overly vulnerable. But yes, you make a great point. I have already been thinking it and I tend to be a worrier and cynical and pessimistic, so she is going to have to go YEARS like this before I will ever let myself totally open my heart to her again. That may not be fair, but it is self-preservation. 

[TooLateNow]

On 7/15/2020 at 2:36 PM, DKT3 said:

I'm not sold on your wife, I'm wondering what happens after a period of time when you're still not there? Does she just say F it and reverse back to old form?

As I mentioned in my last post, I have wondered the same thing.

I decided to just ask her.

I was going to ask her last night, but we were having such a beautiful time together I decided not to ask at that time because I did not want to ruin a great evening.  I am glad I did not.  I do ask and say what I need to now but that does not happen too often anymore and I have found that timing is everything.  Sometimes I resolve my questions or thoughts/feelings without even bringing it up to her.

But this afternoon she was at my office alone with me so I did ask.  I asked it almost exactly how you worded it.  I asked her, I believe in a non-angry and calm way, if I did not get to the point where I could match her feelings for me and I could not get to the point where I could repeat her "I love you"s would she eventually just say "f*** it" and just revert back to her old ways.

At first she teared up a little and apologized for that.  Then she said she would not do that because she knows it was all her fault. She also pointed out that I still treat her amazingly and maybe even better than before and she still is and always has been spoiled by me.  She also said she understands why it is hard for me, especially since it has not even been that long relatively speaking that she has been a decent wife.  (I think now a GREAT wife in the present).  She said that sometimes she gets discouraged but she is not going to ever go back to what she was before.  She looked so sad and I felt for her and  hugged her and we kissed.  This was not her old boo-hoo pity party act that she used in the past to manipulate me and shut me up.  She was not even really crying at that point but I could see it in her eyes and expression and posture.  We talked about a few other things and then moved on with our day. I know I have been fooled in the past, but I am 99.9% certain this was very genuine (I never say 100% with her but I am as positive as I can be having been with her since we were high school kids..)

One thing I am taking from this is that when things are going well and I feel good I am going to try to not ruin a good evening or a good day by bringing up tough thoughts or questions.  Last night I held back and we had a great time together and when I had a chance to ask my question I did and it went very well.  I am thinking that if I want to enjoy my time with her, which I totally do now, I should try to hold my tongue, deal with my issues myself if I can, and if not pick a good time to initiate a discussion.

At this point, there really is nothing more she can do to help me heal and to be the amazing wife I always wanted.  I think I need to just enjoy that more and stop ruining it for myself in my own head.

I do not think she will ever go back to what she was for so long.  I hope I can get back to where I once was or at least much closer.  I think we will then BOTH be a lot happier, not like a fairytale, but a lot better.

Edited July 18, 2020 by TooLateNow
typo