Is there really a god?

[Apex]

Can I be ignorant here and ask if someone will please explain this to me, as it's bugged me for years! I always thought that Jesus was the Son of God, He always refered to His Father, etc. - i.e. Jesus and God are two separate entities? When I hear that Jesus was actually God Himself in human form, I don't know what to believe! Is it one of those things that's different between the Catholic and Church of England faiths?

 

Thanks if anyone can clear this up for me, any links welcomed!

Saint Patrick used a shamrock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Patrick

[quankanne]

Can I be ignorant here and ask if someone will please explain this to me, as it's bugged me for years! I always thought that Jesus was the Son of God, He always refered to His Father, etc. - i.e. Jesus and God are two separate entities? When I hear that Jesus was actually God Himself in human form, I don't know what to believe! Is it one of those things that's different between the Catholic and Church of England faiths?

 

shamrock analogy is a good tried & true one; the nun at the RCIA class gave a bit of an updated version of it, based on the belief that God is love:

 

God

(love)

 

/ \

/ \

/ \

 

Jesus ------------- Holy Spirit

(beloved) (lover/loving)

 

 

the three are one, just manifested in different ways: God is the source of love, Jesus is the fruit, HS is the act of loving ... or something like that!

 

difference among the mainline Christian religions (Catholic V. Protestant) has more to do with practice as opposed to belief. The C of E "protested" against Rome when the Pope refused to grant one of the Henries yet another annulment because Wife No. XXX didn't give him a male heir – so he renounced the church and started his own, one where, as head, he could set the rules to meet his needs (i.e., divorcing and remarrying to produce that boy heir). In that sense, because the Catholic Church was unyielding, Protestant churches sprang up in protest.

 

 

I can see all these things, and I can understand how so much makes sense to a believer of God, yet I still can't believe IN God, if that makes any sense!

 

I think your spiritual journey is one that is ripe with possibility simply *because* you understand what it means to be a believer, it's maybe just that head and heart have yet to connect. You've done an admirable job of communicating what faith and belief are, and respectfully so, even though as an agnostic you don't necessarily have to ...

 

In my heart though i just cant find it to believe in him. I dont feel him around me like many people say they do.

 

yet you take the time to look into this thing you that puzzles you. Which tells me that you are actively involved in your spiritual journey simply because you ask these things. It may not come quickly, but that's okay, because right now you're meant to be picking our brains and seeking out information. I think the one nice attribute of faith is that it doesn't have a "sell by" date stamped on it – it will happen (or not) in it's own good time. In the meantime, keep seeking answers, keep pitching questions to people around you.

[quankanne]

couldn't get it to work, but picture the God/Love diagram as a triangle ...

[HotCaliGirl]

Can I be ignorant here and ask if someone will please explain this to me, as it's bugged me for years! I always thought that Jesus was the Son of God, He always refered to His Father, etc. - i.e. Jesus and God are two separate entities? When I hear that Jesus was actually God Himself in human form, I don't know what to believe! Is it one of those things that's different between the Catholic and Church of England faiths?

 

Thanks if anyone can clear this up for me, any links welcomed!

Although I too stopped believing I could explain just a little bit...he is a single entity that exists as all three things at once - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...that's why the three fingers are put together when making a cross, each symbolizing one aspect of God in the holy trinity ---- tri+unity which is the latin for the property of ocurring three at once. This is believed by the Orthodox churches, Roman Catholic churches and Protestant churches so it is possible that with so many denominations that have flourished after the above listed ones, there may be some that do not believe in the trinity.

 

As for Jesus and God being the same -- whew! That goes deep. There are so many interpretations and theories. I was taught that they are two different entities also. I don't remember where (or if) there is a part of the New Testament that states Jesus IS God. Someone else may be able to find the text and explain why it is interpreted as Jesus and God being one.

Well, it's been ages since I've been in Catholic school, but looking at my bible from school, here are one of the markings I had learned that confirms this in the new testament. (Before you try to understand, it is generally accepted that the meaning of God is beyond our comprehension so there is no answer as to how it makes sense that he is all three even though we are told that in the bible). In John 17:20-23 Jesus says:"I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

 

In Genesis God talks in plural "let us make man in our image" so it is believed that he is referring to all three of his entities since he speaks in plural. But in other areas of the old testament he says that there is only one and makes it monothestic, a main difference between jews who do not believe in the new testament and christians who believe in the trinity aspect of god. And in Matthew it says "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Sprit" which is recited during baptism. It is through Jesus's baptism that his trinity quality becomes known to people, which is why baptism is used to become christian and passages from Matthew recited....there are dozens of more specific passages and of course I am horrible at explaining but i gave it a try if it could help at all!

[Toni_no12002]

At least im not the only one who doesnt believe!

 

Jesus said he was the son of god but how do we know he actually was?Because he said so?Thats a little hard to believe.If i said i was the daughter of god everyone would think im mad lol

 

Apex i understand what you are trying to say but how can we believe a book that was wriitten over 10 thousand years ago?It could be all a big lie.Anyone could have wrote that saying what they thought was happening at the time.They didnt know about tricks and the like.Thats all it could of been.

 

Yes he healed people but did it all happen like it says in the books etc.We can heal people now we have medicines etc does that mean we are powerful?Maybe but does that mean we are the son of god?no

jesus might have believed he was the son of god but how do we know he wasnt lying?The things that happened in those days could of been exaggerated.Like stories if i tell a story now in a couple of years if i heard it again it probably would be totally different.

So how can we rely on the bible?

[quankanne]

Jesus said he was the son of god but how do we know he actually was? Because he said so?

 

when Jesus began his ministry and doing his works as the Son of God, he didn't announce his divinity, but went about his work trying to stay under the radar. People of faith, who were expecting the Messiah to come recognized him as such, and spread the word that he was Son of God. Only later in his ministry did he verify his true identity. It wasn't because he said who he was, but the faith of the believers that he was recognized as the Christ/Son of God.

 

If I said I was the daughter of god everyone would think im mad lol

 

ah, but to a person who believes in God, you ARE a child of God, so to them, your claim wouldn't be baseless

 

how can we believe a book that was written over 10 thousand years ago?It could be all a big lie.Anyone could have wrote that saying what they thought was happening at the time.They didnt know about tricks and the like.Thats all it could of been

 

New Testament of the Bible is approximately 2000 years old, Old Testament predates it and is centuries older. Is it right? Only God knows, because humans -- in their limited understanding -- were trying to capture the essence of the divine that they had found. Common sense tells us this; faith tells us that those writers were divinely inspired to share the Good News, to share in their limited understanding about the God they have encountered. A believer doesn't just read or hear the words, but feels them and the faith behind them.

 

I wonder if maybe you are trying to find answers by taking a literal approach to something that's visceral, something that's done more as a leap of faith?

[Toni_no12002]

I just find it so hard to believe.About all this power he had.If it happened now it could have been explained.Why did he not come when we where cave men or something?Why did he choose to come at that paticular time?

 

No one can say for sure god is real.I suppose no one can say hes not.What evidence do we have that he was jesus?

[quankanne]

I just find it so hard to believe.About all this power he had.If it happened now it could have been explained.Why did he not come when we where cave men or something?Why did he choose to come at that paticular time?

 

No one can say for sure god is real.I suppose no one can say hes not.What evidence do we have that he was jesus?

 

again, all good thought-provoking comments. However, you've got to get past thinking in black and white terms/ideas when seeking that answer, as well as from limiting yourself to a purely human, linear viewpoint. If man is nature/natural, then a being like God is supernatural because he goes way above and beyond anything we've ever known or grasped. He's not explainable in 3-D terms; added dimensions must be considered in order for it to make sense.

 

asking whether he was real or why he revealed himself when he did is merely part of the question. The bigger question is how he knew when to pop up on the scene. Why the Jews at that particular point in time? How did he know what we needed?

 

Is God real? That's for each and every one of us to determine, so depending on your view point, there's no right or wrong answer ....

 

instead of trying to grasp the big picture all at once, start from the other end and ponder smaller stuff like the marvel of your body's workings or how something (a huge oak tree) comes from something so small (an acorn). Maybe going from that end will help your understanding build? Or, build your argument up to support your thought that he doesn't exist ... sometimes in looking for evidence to make your claim, you discover something contrary that gets you into the mindset of his existence.

[PatientOne]

Jesus not only saw him, but he WAS God - that's the whole "holy trinity" thing Christians believe in - God is 3 things - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ - who appeared on Earth in physical form), and God the Holy Spirit.

 

 

And this is another problem I have with Christianity- They worship a Holy Trinity and still call themselves Monotheists!

 

Not trying to pick on you, HotCaliGirl- you just brought up something I've always found ironic.

[FWIW]

And this is another problem I have with Christianity- They worship a Holy Trinity and still call themselves Monotheists!

... something I've always found ironic.

 

I suppose some nutter could worship a dice, even though it's got six sides.. it's still the same thing.

 

But anyway, thanks for the answers.

 

[Moose]

Two things Navy Seals are always taught:

 

1. Keep your priorities in order.

 

2. Know when to act without hesitation.

 

A college professor, an avowed atheist and active in

 

the ACLU, was teaching his class. He shocked several of his

 

students when he flatly stated that for once and for all he was

 

going to prove there was no God.

 

Addressing the ceiling he shouted: "GOD, if you are

 

real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give

 

you exactly 15 minutes!!!"

 

The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin

 

drop. Ten minutes went by. "I'm waiting God, if you're real,

 

knock me off this platform!!!"

 

Again, after 5 minutes, the professor taunted God

 

saying, "Here I am, God!!! I'm still waiting!!"

 

His count down got down to the last couple of seconds

 

when a SEAL , just released form the Navy after serving in

 

Afghanistan and Iraq, newly registered in the class, walked up to

 

the Professor. The SEAL hit him full force in the face and sent the

 

Professor tumbling from his lofty platform.

 

The Professor was out cold. The students were stunned

 

and shocked. They began to babble in confusion. The SEAL

 

nonchalantly took his seat in the front row and sat quietly.

 

The class looked at him and fell silent....waiting. Eventually, the

 

Professor came to and was noticeably shaken. He looked at the

 

SEAL in the front row.

 

When the Professor regained his senses and could speak

 

he asked: "What the hell is the matter with you? Why did

 

you do that?"

 

"God was busy protecting America's soldiers, who are

 

protecting your right to say stupid **** and act like an

 

a**h***!!

 

So he sent me.

Enuff Said.

[PatientOne]

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t52830/?highlight=professor

 

 

Revamping an old joke, Moose?

[Moose]

COOL, I guess so! hehe.

 

Actually, one of my engineers sent that to me this morning......

[Mz. Pixie]

One point I'd like to make-

 

Everyone suffers. I was molested as a child and I suffered horrible abuse. Did I curse God that this happened to me? No, because I know behind everything is a purpose. We can't possibly wrap our minds around all of the things that God can. We can't grasp it. Just like when my marriage broke up, me being in a certain place led me of all people to witness to a criminal who was going back to jail. It was Him that led me to be in that place at that time. He knows what's going to happen- He knows the ending. When someone dies or someone is killed, we do not know how that situation might impact others. For instance, someone reads about a serial killer in the paper and decides to turn in their neighbor- or decides NOT to kill someone and get therapy. Or millions decide to renew their faith because of what happened on 9/11.

 

I believe everything I suffered was to turn me into who I am today. You cannot talk to people who have been somewhere if you do not know what it's like. There is a verse in the Bible that says, "And He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver" He sat in control of my circumstances and even through my suffering will use me to the glory of God!

 

When we get to Heaven, those that believe- everything will be revealed and we will see why these things happened the way they did. Until then, all we can do is go on Faith that it is as He said it was. I'm content to let Him be in charge- because when I'm in charge I mess things up BAD!

[Toni_no12002]

I just dont understand why god isnt helping me!Ive had bad things happen to me in the past and i suppose everyone has but he isnt helping at all.I thought he was supposed to be there for me!

[Mz. Pixie]

There are alot of reasons why it could appear he's not helping you.

 

1. Are you living in his will?

 

2. Is what you are asking for within His plan and His will?? For instance, you may be praying for something that would not be good for you and he's not answering it??

 

I know if it's the illness of your grandmother that you're praying about then you may be confused as to why he's not helping you or that it appears to you that you've been forgotten. This is not the case. He only answers prayers in His time, not ours.

 

I know it's all confusing and I am perhaps not the best person to explain it all to you- I only hope that my efforts show some caring on my part. I just know that God loves you and His desire is to have a relationship with you- not just a relationship where you ask and He answers and gives- but one where you give Him praise and glory as well.

 

A good start might be to be thankful for what you DO have. The Bible says, "Give praise in everything" and "Count it all joy". Sometimes even when things are really really bad for me I look for one thing to be thankful in. For instance- sure I didn't have the money to buy that new outfit I wanted but Thank You Lord that I had money for groceries. Also, for instance- "Yes, my grandmother is gone (mine died in 04/04) but Thank You Lord for the time I did get to have with her".

[Mz. Pixie]

Also, Toni- how do you know He wasn't helping??

 

Example-

 

Maybe you were hurt or abused by someone that you loved?? How about the fact that maybe he kept that person from taking it as far as they could have?? How many times has He stopped a car from hitting you or a illness from falling on you?? You do not know because those are not things we are to know.

 

I accepted Christ when I was 8. When I was a little older than that my abuse started. I know now without a doubt that the only reason I'm still alive is because He had his hand on my life. If I wouldn't have had my salvation at the point that the abuse started I may have started taking drugs or using alcohol. I didn't.

 

Becoming a Christian doesn't mean that you will never sin or that nothing bad will ever happen to you ever again. It just means you're forgiven and that He will be with you through it all.

[westernxer]

I just dont understand why god isnt helping me!Ive had bad things happen to me in the past and i suppose everyone has but he isnt helping at all.I thought he was supposed to be there for me!

 

Help in what way?

[quankanne]

I just dont understand why god isnt helping me! … he isnt helping at all.I thought he was supposed to be there for me!

 

what sort of help are hoping to receive? From personal experience, I can say that he's not going to have the answer neatly tied up and presented to you point-blank, but rather, presents opportunities for you to help yourself. Sort of like the adage, "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life" ...

 

are the answers you are seeking something you ought to be formulating on your own? Why do people suffer (because they are human and their bodies and psyches are prone to injury and hurt) -- how do you alleviate that suffering (by moving through/past it) -- why are we here? Each of those questions have a very subjective answer that isn't easily arrived at.

[mental_traveller]

I don't really see good evidence for the existence of god (or multiple gods). Some people say that the order and complexity in the universe is evidence of a creator - the intelligent design argument. There are two problems with it - firstly, who designed the designer? If god is complex and shows order, then he must have been created by someone or something, according to the principles of intelligent design. If god doesn't require a creator, then why does the universe? Secondly, there is no reason to think that order and complexity can only be created by a designer or creator, rather than just by natural processes. There are lots of cases of order arising from simple or apparently random & chaotic inputs, thanks solely to the operations of a handful of principles. A good example is the world economic system - no one person on earth knows how to operate a complex production system (e.g. building computers) from start to finish (indeed probably no one person really understands the whole process). Yet every day, thousands of computers are assembled from bits of equipment all over the world, and delivered fast and reliably to people 1000s of miles away. That's a complex system, and it exists purely because of the profit principle. No one sat down and intelligently created the PC worldwide delivery network from scratch, it evolved from people just trying to make a buck here and there, and slowly connecting together to form a complex system that worked. So clearly a designer is not necessary for the formation of a complex and/or orderly system.

 

Another argument is faith or instinct. But people once had faith that the earth was flat, that communism was an ideal social system, that heavy stones fell faster than light stones, that alchemy was true, and so on. Historically, human faith and instinct have proven to be astonishingly inaccurate, time after time. Science has proven much better at getting results and accurately describing reality. In addition, different people of equally strong faith and conviciton often have totally contradictory beliefs. Some people have faith that god exists, others equally strongly have faith that he doesn't. By definition, one of them is totally wrong. Therefore faith by itself is no guide whatsoever - so you cannot trust your faith or instinct at all.

 

Sacred texts and tradition are also used as "proof" for the existence of god. But this one's easy - how do we know that what is said in them is true? Again, there's no proof - you have to just take the author's word for it. So why believe this text rather than that one?

 

If you study people's religious beliefs, they are usually the same as their parents. This proves conclusively that religious belief is not arrived at by a process of reasoning, or consideration of facts and evidence, but rather by societal influence, and even indoctrination. Needless to say, the popularity of a belief in a society has nothing to do with whether it is true or not. Thus, most religious believers are believing for invalid reasons that have nothing to do with the likely existence of god, and everything to do with what they were taught to believe.

 

Finally, in ancient times people used religious explanations for unknown phenomenon. The wind was not understood, nor was fire or stars - so they were explained as gods. Wind was caused by the wind god, you did a rain dance hoping that the rain god would smile on you and give water etc. As knowledge advanced, and the workings of wind or fire or stars became known, people stopped believing they were gods, but rather natural phenomena. So clearly people in general tend to invent religious explanations for important things they don't understand. In the past, these explanations have turned out to be complete hogwash. So the odds are that the current explanations for unknown phenomena (e.g. the existence of the universe, the creation of life on earth, the purpose of living etc) that involve religion will also be complete hogwash.

[HokeyReligions]

There is a repeating pattern here -- and I've seen the pattern in every group I've discussed religion with and in studies and discussions between scholars.

 

People who don't believe, or are questioning the reasoning behind 'why' God does or does not allow something, etc. come down to a basic understanding (or not understanding) of physics and human nature.

 

People try to apply human laws to a non-human entitiy; and they try to apply the laws of physics as we know them to the divine.

 

Divine may or may not have any laws 'regulating' it. There is no gravity, no beginning or ending, no age or maturity, no requirements of anything on earth or of earthly life forms. No water or food or vitamins. There is no intake or output. Divine simply IS. Diving requires no proof because there IS no proof that anyone could ever explain or understand. It is impossible to understand Divine because we can not qualify it. God is divine so its impossible to put into words a description of God or to explain His actions in any way a human can understand.

 

I think that is what people who wrote the Bible attempted to do. Express the divine acts of God the best way they could, including interpreting what God said to them and commanded of them.

 

I don't dis-believe the Bible, I just think that its impossible to write anything truly comprehensive about God so writings must be in a way that people can attempt to understand it. That's why there are so many of the stories and even jokes about how God works though us -- they are written by people who are trying to find a way to expess their beliefs and share their love of God with others in a way they can relate and understand.

[Toni_no12002]

He could of helped me by supporting me.I put up with crap for a year and a half.Everyone says that maybe god did help me because i could have got it worse but maybe that was me helping myself not him.Even after that things got worse and worse so where was he then?Ive read i thing saying god loves everyone!if he did why watch people suffer?

[Moose]

He could of helped me by supporting me.I put up with crap for a year and a half.Everyone says that maybe god did help me because i could have got it worse but maybe that was me helping myself not him.Even after that things got worse and worse so where was he then?Ive read i thing saying god loves everyone!if he did why watch people suffer?

You have this attitude that God owes you something. I think if you changed that, you may see a difference.

[Mz. Pixie]

I explained my thinking on that question to you earlier in the thread. Because there is a underlying purpose within His will for that to happen. Things that we do not know.

[Toni_no12002]

Im not saying he owes me anything but he helps other people so why not me?Have i done something not to deserve it?The people that did get help did they do something to deserve it?