Is there really a god?

[quankanne]

taking their faith seriously is what a believer does ... otherwise, what's the use of professing that faith? Even if you're lukewarm, you're still formed by those beliefs.

 

no gimmes here

[Apex]

sometimes i feel that some people take religion too seriously.

Why should the wind blow?

[Toni_no12002]

huh?

 

Idont mean it like that i mean some people go too far.I wasnt on about any of you but ive seen it where parents are telling there kids what they should and shouldnt believe in and telling them off for all sorts of things because of what they believe in.They can sometimes go too far.

[Apex]

Idont mean it like that i mean some people go too far.I wasnt on about any of you but ive seen it where parents are telling there kids what they should and shouldnt believe in and telling them off for all sorts of things because of what they believe in.They can sometimes go too far.

I thought you didn't know any Christians.

Where did this come from?

 

Has anybody here been forcibly converted?

[quankanne]

there have been attempts on my spiritual life by some well-meaning door-bangers who wanted to introduce me to Christ and to save me when DH & I lived at an apartment complex. Their intentions were good, and I didn't want to be cruel, so I praised their efforts of evangelization and prayed with them. Unfortunately, it wasn't a Catholic prayer, so I don't know if my contra-salvation attempts worked! :laugh:

 

ive seen it where parents are telling there kids what they should and shouldnt believe in and telling them off for all sorts of things because of what they believe in.They can sometimes go too far.

 

parents often follow or base their actions on what they learned from their own families or church communities. While their methods might be questionable or weird, it's not our place to tell them how to impart the faith to their children.

[Toni_no12002]

I do know a christian its my mums friend.Well sort of i dont think she really wants to be her friend anymore because she doesnt have a religion.

 

I knew a family who did this down our street years ago.But the children couldnt have many friends as they has some religion and there parents wouldnt allow them to have friends who didnt follow there religion.I think in that way religion can cause problems.Im not saying the parents was totally wrong in what they where doing but it can affect the children.

[Apex]

I do know a christian its my mums friend.Well sort of i dont think she really wants to be her friend anymore because she doesnt have a religion.

 

I knew a family who did this down our street years ago.But the children couldnt have many friends as they has some religion and there parents wouldnt allow them to have friends who didnt follow there religion.I think in that way religion can cause problems.Im not saying the parents was totally wrong in what they where doing but it can affect the children.

I don’t know why I or anybody should take this seriously. So far, your attention to detail has been a big letdown.

 

If you “sort of” of know someone, you probably don’t know that person.

Did those parents tell you not to spend time with their children? If so, did they provide a reason?

[Toni_no12002]

I did not say i sort of know her i said she was sort of her friend.They where good friends until recently.

 

They weren't allowed to play with children who wasnt there religion for some reason.

 

Sometimes religion can cause problems.Like with my mums friend.Because she isnt christian she doesnt want to be friends with her anymore.

 

I would appreciate it if you would stop having the attitude.Why should anyone take your problems seriously?

At the minute im talking about religion i am quite entitled to.Why do you even say anything or look at this if you dont like it?Im entitled to argue my point just as you are yours.You say i dont listen to what people say.I am but its hard to grasp thats all.Maybe i have been brought up differently i find it hard to believe such things but i am trying to otherwise why would i even bother?

 

I live in the uk.I dont know where you live but here thing can be different to other places.

[ButtonPusher]

I don’t know why I or anybody should take this seriously. So far, your attention to detail has been a big letdown.

 

If you “sort of” of know someone, you probably don’t know that person.

Did those parents tell you not to spend time with their children? If so, did they provide a reason?

Apex, putting people down is not a very christian thing to do is it? If you lack the patience to discuss religion with people that have not been brought up the way you have then bugger off. You have called this girl dense, acused her of joking about religion and now your saying that your dissapointed about her attention to detail. F**k dude, if I was searching for some spiritual answers, you'd be turning me off christianity with your attitude.

[Toni_no12002]

Thankyou.Someone who understands how hard it is to understand all of this.It is hard!

 

I want to understand but sometimes you cant, it may be simple to you because you believe in all of it but to me its different.Im trying ,i really am.Maybe you think im not listening i am ive heard the stories of why god does what he does but its very hard to believe.

 

Why would you think im messing about if i wasnt interested why would i even ask the question?

[IPW]

Hey Toni, I'm amazed to see someone else from Grimsby! Wow

 

Anyway, If you'd like to talk about Christianity, Jesus, God anything like that I'd be happy to chat online with you sometime. I've recently (in the past month) made the transistion to becoming a Christian. You're showing a willingless to listen and a desire to learn, and I'd like to share my experiences, and how I began believing with you. Try and help you make your own decision.

 

Send me an email? Or add me on MSN? "IanWright83@ hotmail.com" is my address (miss out the space after the @ symbol. Thats to stop internet bots scanning the page and stealing my email address to sign me up to junk mail!)

 

Alternativley PM me with a contact, and I'll get in touch.

 

Look forward to hearing from you!

 

 

(Also, after reading a bit more.. people treating you differently depending on your beliefs.. Which part of GY do you live in? As for Church's I might be able to find out if theres one thats suitable for you. The one I goto (At Uni) has many students and lots of young kids, they have people to look after the kids and bring them back at the end. I'd be very suprised if there isn't somewhere near you who can accomdate both you and your child).

[Apex]

IPW,

Check post #351. I typed the summary to provide some coherence to this thread.

 

I think this thread can be summarized as, Toni doesn't understand her questions, and she doesn't understand the answers. If she had some clarity, this thread could have been 10 posts or less.

 

I think explaining the trinity would be a monumental task at the very least.

[Toni_no12002]

no apex its just that i dont understand!it may be simple to you but to me it isnt so get off my back!

[IPW]

I find that a little harsh Apex, I've not read most of the posts, just a few simple pages. Everyone has their own views before they become Christians, if indeed they do decide to accept God. She says she doesn't understand the issues, maybe we should all listen to that, and try to explain them more clearly, sometimes what you take for granted, might be alien to another person.

 

At the college in grimsby, I spoke to a teacher, who said that when she told older people to move the mouse on the screen (she was teaching them to use computers), they picked it up, placed the mouse on the screen of the monitor and moved it about... It seems silly, but it happens, people can't always understand straight away, and patience is needed.

 

I get the impression from your last few posts that you're giving her a bit of a hard time, so I'm going to talk to her privately instead of in this forum discussion. The gospels tell us to go out and spread the word (Luke 8:16), but it is for God to choose who he gives faith, so you must be patient until God makes that decision...

[Apex]

I find that a little harsh Apex, I've not read most of the posts, just a few simple pages.

I read all of it.

Everyone has their own views before they become Christians, if indeed they do decide to accept God.

She already rejected God.

At the college in grimsby, I spoke to a teacher, who said that when she told older people to move the mouse on the screen (she was teaching them to use computers), they picked it up, placed the mouse on the screen of the monitor and moved it about... It seems silly, but it happens, people can't always understand straight away, and patience is needed.

If they can’t figure out a mouse it six weeks, they are either very slow or not interested.

She says she doesn't understand the issues, maybe we should all listen to that, and try to explain them more clearly, sometimes what you take for granted, might be alien to another person.

She doesn’t understand why Christians have faith. I believe she called it silly. She suggested that Christianity is a fabrication, and that religion is a source of problems. She cited what appears to be gossip in post #406.

The gospels tell us to go out and spread the word (Luke 8:16), but it is for God to choose who he gives faith, so you must be patient until God makes that decision...

Mat 7:6, it is futile to offer wisdom to people with no inclination to accept it.

 

She worships science, and rejects God. I don’t think she understands either.

[Toni_no12002]

Apex why do you think that you know everything.I did this thread so that i could understand it more.Maybe yes i do critisize little things but if i dont i wont understand it at all.I have so many questions about god and religion and yes maybe i do argue with things but im doing it for my own benefit to find out the truth(or what i believe it to be)You have no right to keep talking about me the way you do.Why do you keep coming on this thread?Are you looking for an arguement?If you dont like the way i am its simple stop looking at it and stop writing things.

 

Everything you write here is your opinion.I have the right to voice my opinion on things. i started this thread to see if i couldlearn anything.Maybe i dont understand what you have been telling me but in no way does that mean im stupid or not listenening.I did a course on hair and beauty at college.If i started telling you things about that which you might not know it would be hard to take in.You stopped posting here for a while so why have you comeback?To argue more.I would appreciate it if you would stop talking about me like im a waste of space.If people who are religious end up like you then i dont know if i should even bother!

[Greg25]

With questions about God, and why God allows evil, pain, death and suffering to exist, we are entering on a very complicated and long road which has occupied human beings from the very beginning of our existence.

 

Given the framework for us is still along the lines of the Bible and Christianity, I will discuss the debates that have occured in that tradition.

 

Within the Bible itself, death, evil and pain have their origins in three sources; God's actions, human actions, or the actions of spiritual beings, being either angels doing God's will, or evil angels rebelling against God's will.

 

In the book of Genesis, God creates human beings as free and complete and independent creatures, capable fully of making their own decisions. God allowed human beings to do everything except one thing; eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So the story of Genesis goes, Adam and Eve are tempted by Satan, who was by then a fallen angel, into disobeying this command, and from this disobedience followed the fall. After the fall, mankind's inclinations are toward the evil, corrupt, violent and immoral, rather than the good, the wholesome, the peaceful and the holy. God however begins to redeem mankind through the covenant with Abraham and his descendants (the future Israel) and later, through incarnating himself as a human being, Jesus Christ, who dies on the cross to save all who believe in him from the penalty of sin (death) and hence have life. The end of the story is where there is a final judgement on the world where sin, death and evil are finally destroyed, and the wicked consigned to hell forever, while the creation is restored to its original perfection and the blessed are returned to heaven.

 

Hence the great Christian theologians, such as St Augustine and John Calvin, place the origin of evil, death and suffering in the misuse of God-given free will, either by angels (such as Satan) or by human beings. Evil then is free choice away from the true and sole good, a choice to choose nothing rather than everything, to choose death rather than life. Why God allows all this to happen in the first place is a mystery understood and known only by God himself, but at the same time all things are under his providential control.

 

Another way of understanding evil is that it is more or less spiritual ignorance. Christian mystics from Pseudo-Dionysus the Aeropagite to John of Cross take the view real evil is loving everything which is not God, and turning away from the true spiritual reality. I tend to agree more with this mystical view than with the harsh ideas of eternal damnation of Augustine and Calvin, much as I admire them and other church fathers for their brilliance and originality and depth of understanding.

 

Why do people die? Why do we suffer pain? Where is God when terrible things happen?

 

Whatever lives, whatever has a beginning, must also have an end. Whatever is born will also die. Central to all world religions is the idea that everything, except ultimate reality/God itself, is transient and will pass away. This is confirmed by modern science, which predicts the universe will eventually dissolve into a sea of subatomic particles and the Earth and solar system will be destroyed by the Sun's death in a few billion years. Long before this, life here will become extinct through an accelerated greenhouse effect. Death is a part of the universe because our world is fundamentally a place of change, and because everything changes, things are constantly coming into being and passing out of existence. What was once carbon in old bones is now a cell in your living body, and when you die, your atoms and molecules will become part of something or someone else. Pain is also related to the fact we are mortal and change, because pain is 'built' into us to register to our brain that a part of our body is injured or not working properly, or under too much strain; to make us aware we are not immortal, and to take action to preserve our being by resting and healing. We would die out quite quickly as a species if we didn't act to let cuts or broken bones heal.

 

I view suffering as a necessary aspect of existence, and a natural one. It is true a great deal of this suffering seems pointless and senseless, and from a human view, it is. But suffering occurs because everything is also in endless change, or to take a theistic view, because God is always creating, making new things or old things new. Pain occurs as a necessary part of the creative process, like pain occurs in the bones of a growing child. Pain also comes with loss and our mistakes, but what we learn from loss and mistakes makes us grow spiritually, and makes us more loving and compassionate to others, and less selfish and egoistic. Pain is a challenge for us to be better, to be couragous in the face of suffering, and to be kinder to others in more pain than we are. It is not something we should take with gloomy and hopeless pessimism; after all, Christ had to die miserably in great pain before ascending to heaven; he didn't die in a comfortable bed or hospital. And in Christian belief, he did this so we all might live free of pain forever.

 

Other religions have other approaches to pain, but the basic message is the same; pain, death, and evil, exist to wake us up spiritually to the inevitable mortality of our existence, and to make us give up shallow things like obessions over how good we look, how much we own, or how much money we have, and get down to the business of salvation.

[Apex]

Nice post.

Wrong thread!!!

 

I recommend you start a new thread next time.

[white_angelbreath]

Toni, I've read your first post, which is the reason why you had this thread. I sincerely believed that you are doubting God. Maybe you expected him to answer your problems right away.

 

God answers in different ways, not always in ways we would want it to. Besides, things happen because they happen. That is what life is all about. You cannot expect that everything will always be the same, and you cannot expect that it will always be happy and perfect. Everything changes even time.

 

I, too, have my own problems. I do get frustrated when I don't get what I want or it takes awhile to solve it or when there is no possible solution to it. Sometimes I get impatient and doubt God and His capacity to listen to me and answer my prayers. In fact I do alot of "why god?" before and even once in awhile now if I get too impatient or scared. Through the years, I realized that its just a normal process of life, and almost all of us happen to ask the same "why god?" in one way or another.

 

You'll never find God just by reading everything about Him. Everything said about Him is what every other people said about Him. But what is your personal experience with Him? You may wonder why there are people who are genuinely involved in their faith with God, well, maybe because of their personal experience with Him.

 

Frankly, it took me years to realize these and to really determine the existence of God. God exists because we believe him to be. Sometimes we are searching for God when in fact, we are just really searching for ourselves.

[Moai]

This is a very interesting thread! I have read through all of the posts, and the different perceptions of god and what Christianity is all about are always interesting.

 

That said, I am not a Chirstian, nor do I believe in any other gods, either. It seems like many times people don't ask the right questions at times.

 

Pain and suffering exist in this world because we are biological organisms. We have a nevervous system, so when something damages the body it registers as pain. This is a good thing, because if you didn't feel pain you wouldn't know that you broke your ankle, and would continue to walk around until your foot fell off, or you got gangrene and died.

 

Why do bad things happen to good people? Why wouldn't they? Being nice and loving to your family is meaningless to a cancer virus. Heredity, lifestyle etc. all play a role in what makes you sick and what you will eventually die from. Asking the question "why me?" seems silly to me, as sickness is not personal. I just got over a serious illness, and I never asked the question, "why me?". "Why not me?" seems to be the more rational approach. Something is going to kill me eventually, there is no avoiding it. Every day above ground is a good day, and it could end any second for millions of different reasons. So appreciate what you have, and that you are still around to appreciate it.

 

As far as accidents and disasters go, they happen. Why did I miss that plane that just crashed and others did not? Who cares? I missed the plane and I am glad. I am sorry that others perished, always, but their demise wasn't punishment, or unfair. Airline travel is dangerous--less so than other forms, sure, but it is still dangerous. Accidents will happen. Crazies will blow things up. Vehicles will roll over. We are all fugitives from the law of averages. What is "fair" or "unfair" is a human construct and has nothing to do with reality.

 

The universe doesn't care anything about you. The Earth could be burned to a cinder tomorrow and it'll still be here, doing its thing. For some, that is a depressing thought, but for me it is liberating. I choose what is meaningful to me, and what is important. Everyone does this, even those who are believers. At some point one must decide to accept the Bible, and its meaning, right? The idea of an invisible super-being watching everything that I do and keeping score, creeps me out. That, and the fact that I would be punished forever for what amounts to a thought crime is, to me, a bizarre concept. So is reincarnation, astrology, alien abduction, etc.

 

I don't think everything happens for a reason. In fact, everything happens for no reason whatsoever. Sure, you can point to concrete things like, "the plane went down because an engine blew up" but aside from poor maintenence or a goose flying into it, there is no over-arching reason as to why it happened. It just did. People are going to get cancer. You may be one. I may be one. The biggest jerk on the planet could live to be 100, and the nicest guy I ever met died at 42. So?

 

I think it was Calvin who suggested that you can tell who is going to Heaven, because they have better lives here on Earth. That idea has been rejected by virtually all mainstream Christian faiths, but in some quarters it seems to be making a comeback.

 

Why is that guy rich and I am poor? Why am I fat and he is thin? Why am I tall and he is short? Why am I a man and not a woman? Why why why? Asking things like this is a great way to drive yorself crazy. Sure, you can construct a system that explains it to some degree, but every one I have ever come across has holes in it you could drive a truck through, except "No reason."

 

The free-will argument fails because free-will doesn't explain why some infants are born with their spines outside thier bodies, or any number of horrifying birth defects. Are the parents being punished for excercising their free-will? Is that fair? The fact is that genes combine they way they will, and sometimes they produce an organism that cannot survive. Nothing personal. They can also combine and create an amazing athlete, the brain that will cure cancer, or the person you are going to fall in love with.

 

Humans have been able to insulate themselves from the horrors of life to an amazing extent. If you look at the anial kingdom, life is painful, cruel, and short. Most animals never see maturity. They devour each other alive, drive off the weak, and fire sweeps through and wipes out entire ecosystems in minutes. But for us, when someone dies before reaching an advanced age or a rare disease we don't yet understand takes out a loved one, it is "unfair" or reasons must be constructed to explain it. It is simply because we have it so good that the "why me?" question even comes up.

 

It's funny, but in a way even Christians are atheists, too. They reject gods and religions just like I do, I just have one more, that's all. I have read the Bible, was raised in the church, and reject it. Reading the Bible for myself is what lead me to atheism, in fact. It seems just so silly, what with the diety sacrifice and everything. But, that's just me, if others get happiness from believing it and it makes the world make sense to them, right on! I only have issues when that belief leaves the personal and is forced on others. Most people do, too.

 

Whether god exists and his/her/its nature is unknowable. I am an atheist simply because I have better things to think about most of the time, and from everything I have read and see around me there probably isn't. So I got off the fence. I could certainly be wrong, but then, so can everybody else.

 

I did not write this to belittle anyone's faith or lack of it, I just wanted to give voice to an opinion that seemed lacking on this thread. Take it for what it's worth--it was free, after all!

 

I hope everyone has a healthy and prosperous New Year!

[Apex]

Moai

There is something very familiar about your post.

Did you copy and paste it from another poster, or online source?

[Moai]

Moai

There is something very familiar about your post.

Did you copy and paste it from another poster, or online source?

Nope. It's all me, although I used to be a contributor to a site dedicated to refuting Creationism, as well as a newsgroup about that subject, perhaps you have read my stuff there?

[boham]

I can't and won't try to prove that there is a God to someone else. It would be like an atheist trying to prove to me there is no God when I firmly believe there is. But I can give reasons why I believe in God.

 

First and formost, one of my favorite readings on this subject is by St. Thomas Aquinas in "The Existence Of God" in the "Tertia Via".

Summed up:

1) Whatever exists, exists contingently. (has a begining and an end)

2) Whatever exists contingently, is capable of not existing.

3) Whatever is capable of not existing, at one time it did not exist.

4) If there was a time everything did not exist, then there was a time there was nothing.

5) Whatever exists, is always caused to exist by something already existing (Things dont just happen or pop out of thin air... action/reaction: cant have reaction without action).

6) But if there ever was a time there was nothing (4), there should be nothing (5). (Once again, things dont just happen or pop out of thin air)

7) But things exist: Therefore something exists necessarily (What I call God)

 

I found myself trying to figure out in my head "How can I prove to myself that there is a God?". After learning this, and took time to really understand it, it makes sence to me.

 

Also another reason why I believe in God is that what do I have to loose? If there really is no God and I do worship, when I die I lost nothing and gained nothing. But if there is a God and I don't worship him, sucks to be me.

[boham]

I can't and won't try to prove that there is a God to someone else. It would be like an atheist trying to prove to me there is no God when I firmly believe there is. But I can give reasons why I believe in God.

 

First and formost, one of my favorite readings on this subject is by St. Thomas Aquinas in "The Existence Of God" in the "Tertia Via".

Summed up:

1) Whatever exists, exists contingently. (has a begining and an end)

2) Whatever exists contingently, is capable of not existing.

3) Whatever is capable of not existing, at one time it did not exist.

4) If there was a time everything did not exist, then there was a time there was nothing.

5) Whatever exists, is always caused to exist by something already existing (Things dont just happen or pop out of thin air... action/reaction: can't have reaction without action).

6) But if there ever was a time there was nothing (4), there should be nothing (5). (Once again, things dont just happen or pop out of thin air)

7) But things exist: Therefore something exists necessarily (What I call God)

 

I found myself trying to figure out in my head "How can I prove to myself that there is a God?". After learning this, and took time to really understand it, it makes sence to me.

 

Also another reason why I believe in God is that what do I have to loose? If there really is no God and I do worship, when I die I lost nothing and gained nothing. But if there is a God and I don't worship him, sucks to be me.

 

I hear alot of people complaining "If there is a God, why is there pain, hurt, famine, poor, blaugh, etc..." But I dont see anybody just allowing everyone and anyone into their house. If someone is to enter my house, I have to trust them enough (or they need to prove to me that they are descent enough) to let them enter. And I am sure that goes for everybody. So why should God if he does exist allow people who has not proven themselves worthy of entering his house to enter? Or should that rule only pertain to us on this earth?

 

I hear from so many people: "I am ...(put whatever bad thing here)..., God hates me or does not exist". Does ...(put whatever bad thing here)... really matter in God's house? If he does exist, and everything about him is pure, then money means nothing, food means nothing, and nothing of this earth means anything anymore in God's house. If I have to cope with 60-100 years on this earth with being poor, hurt, etc... to spend the rest of eternity in a place where none of that matters, then I will suck it up and take it because I really have little choice in the matter.

[HotCaliGirl]

1) Whatever exists, exists contingently. (has a begining and an end)

2) Whatever exists contingently, is capable of not existing.

3) Whatever is capable of not existing, at one time it did not exist.

4) If there was a time everything did not exist, then there was a time there was nothing.

5) Whatever exists, is always caused to exist by something already existing (Things dont just happen or pop out of thin air... action/reaction: can't have reaction without action).

6) But if there ever was a time there was nothing (4), there should be nothing (5). (Once again, things dont just happen or pop out of thin air)

7) But things exist: Therefore something exists necessarily (What I call God)

Have you come to believe that God exists because it makes complete sense to you that God is the only explanation and proof for things existing?Or is it from writings in the bible that have convinced you? Or exclusively the book you paraphrase?

 

The bottom line is that nobody has evidence to prove or disprove the existence of God, no matter what they may believe in their heart. They pick and choose to believe what others tell them, resulting in thousands of different religions throughout the ages. People have chosen God as the source of existence, why did they not choose something else?

 

There are many different Gods and you get to pick which one you feel is the real God and practice that God's teachings and give him/her/it credit for creaiting everything, at least until science discovers it in the future then it will be "people once believed there was a God who created the universe...." along the lines of "people once thought the earth was flat."

 

In the meantime, people need an answer and if religion provides them with that comfort, that is all good. If it provides comfort for them to think they will never die - they will live on in heaven, then that too is good. Whatever it takes to get one through the day.

 

If what you say about 1-7 is true, then somebody had to have created God, since he has a beginning and an end as it states all things that exist have. So there was another God who created God, and before that God existed, another God created that one and so on.

 

Just like there was someone who existed before you, and will exist after you. And why is there one God and not millions of them? Again, is it because of the teachings of a particular bible that you believe there is one God, he acts in such and such a way, and so on, or becuase of your own personal conclusions? (These questions can apply to all believers).