Is there really a god?

[Moai]

The account of Mary's geneology is in Luke. The fact of the matter two seperate geneologies does not preclude the fact that each parent has a different geneology.

 

SInce it is not mentioned specifically, that is an ad hoc expanation to brush past a serious contradiction. I don't really care, as there are other better ones.

 

How do you think they did the census back then, or are you disputing that a census was taken? Right now, with the election system, I have to get up and go somewhere to vote, I guess it would be nice if people went door to door and asked people to sign ballots, wouldn't you say?

 

Actually, you can mail in your vote, it's called an "absentee ballot". A guy will come to your house and pick it up for you. Also, when you vote, it is at a precinct determined by WHERE YOU LIVE--that is, where you are registered to vote. I was born in California, but I live here in Nevada, so I vote here in Nevada. I don't have to go back to California to vote. Your analogy is vapid.

 

And we know how they took censi back then because we still have their data. A census is more than counting people, it is determining specific demographic information that allows you togovern more efficiently, improve economic performance, etc. Having people leave where they live in order to count them renders any numbers you get meaningless, as you will have no idea how many people are in any given area.

 

And census takers do go door to door. In modern times they use computers which are much more efficient, obviously, but the Romans went door to door. To the houses where people lived.

 

Too bad for them.

 

I'll take the word over someone who has devoted their life to the study of this subject over some Fundie guy witha degree from Rod Parson's seminary.

 

Acknowledged. Do you consider 2 days a short period? Because, in God's time, 2000 years may be 2 days. I'll show you a scriptural time-chart code:

 

Psalm 90:4 "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."

 

The 'Generation' that Jesus has been referring to was interpreted by Benny Hinn, Grant Jeffery, and other prophetic authorities to start from the time that Israel, as a nation was re-established. They postulate that when Israel was destroyed in 70 A.D., the prophetic clock stopped ticking, so to speak, but restarted again when they became a nation. According to this theology, the end is very close since we are near the end of the generation that Israel became a nation in 1948.

 

Benny Hinn is a scriptural authority????? You have got to be kidding! That guy is a charlatan of the first rank! And he can interpret it however he wants, common sense would tell me that when I look at someone and tell them that their generation will not pass away before I get back, I mean the people who are listening to me now, not people thousands of years from now. Suggesting otherwise is just stupid.

 

I have watched Benny Hinn and am very familiar with his ministry. That guy is the biggest liar on the planet, and what is worse he preys on people who are sick and have very little hope, or money. In a way I hope there is a Hell, because he is going there for certain.

 

Why is it that the people he "heals" never get better? Every time someone who he lays hands on gets a follow-up with a physician, they are just as sick as before they saw him. Every single time.

 

I actually feel sorry for you that you have fallen for Benny Hinn's chicanery. Honestly. That sucks.

 

That means, if someone was born in 1948, or the time that Israel became a nation, then technically they will see the end of the age before they die (if they live for their average lifespan). The prophecy community would speculate the end is right around the corner since the generation, that Jesus is referring to, is going to be coming to a close any time now.

 

Whatever. The prophetic community to whom you refer are liars who are only out for your money. And every prophecy they have asserted has been wrong. Every single time. Look at your own book: the Bible says that you will know if prphet is false if his predictions do not come to pass. Theirs don't. So what does that tell you? Hal Lindsey is so wrong it's pathetic. Jack Van Impe, while hilarious, is a nutjob.

 

Theologically, there are different two distinct judgements:

 

One is the Judgement Seat of Christ, where your works, as a born-again Christian believer are tried in fire to see what will remain. In general, you are rewarded for anything that you have done for the Kingdom of Christ where the motivations are by the Spirit and are pure. What type of reward, or what you will do in the new Kingdom will depend on what you did with your time, money, and your life as a whole. Salvation is not an issue in this judgement because everyone there being judged is already saved. This type of court seems like a Civil type of court.

 

Why all this goofy judgement stuff? And why have a "ghost court"? The whole concept is nonsensical and bizarre.

 

That post-Millenium judgement is known as the White Throne Judgement, and it is a judgement of all sinners who have neglected or rejected Christ. This judgement is the second death, and the extent of damnation, or what type of hell would be experienced. Salvation again is not an issue in this judgement, because, only the damned are present here. This is the one mentioned in Revelation, and it is more like a Sentencing court, and the extent of damnation, or severity of it is at issue.

 

This is yet another ad hoc expanation to cover up contradictions, namely about salvation. but if it works for you, that's just super. Please don't give Benny Hinn any of your moeny. Please. The suffering caused by that guy is enormous, and he is only deceiving you.

 

You would like me to quote from the Bible how this doctrine is supported?

 

No, as you can quote the Bible to support naything. We have been over this. I don't care how you interpret the Bible, I am attempting to demonstrate to you why I reject it, and that anyone with their eyes open would reject it, too.

[Moai]

It is easy to talk BEFORE-the-FACT.

 

Yep. Name a charity, and you have my word that if the Rapture happens I will give all of my money and time to it as long as I am still on this planet. In return, I ask that until that day you don't abandon your faith (your dedication ot it is commendable), but look critically at some of them men in whom you trust.

 

Is that fair?

[Moai]

This is absurd. Animals are not at all like humans other than the physical.

They cant build rockets and go to the moon, civilisations, money, or do many other things humans can do.

 

I can't breathe underwater, I can't carry 900 times my body weight, or sonar-locate. Certainly we have complex brains and can reason, but other animals can, too. They also use tools. Going to the moon is important to us, but meaningless to every other lifeform on earth, so WE think it is special, but in the grand scheme of things it is nothing.

 

I think it is awesome because we went from the first airplane flight to walking on the Moon in less than 100 years. The human brain is a wonderful thing, and yet your theology suggests that the ability to reason is a curse. Pity.

 

I never read that animals go to heaven or hell. I thought they just died.

 

I haven't either, but there are lots of people who really want to see their dead cat in the afterlife, so there you go.

[quankanne]

If God divinely inspired the origianl authors, why didn't He divinely inspire the translators? Why do I have to learn two different languages in order to understand what God is saying to me?

 

I personally think it's all based on the language of love, which comes from the heart. Written and spoken language sometimes can create impediments when you're trying to get down to the heart of the matter, because it's easy to get tangled up in those words when you're meant to be responding viscerally, or from the inside .... Someone made the case for understanding of faith and the Bible coming through the Holy Spirit, and I think that's true. Unless one is open to the Spirit, to the possibilities of a Super Natured being we know as God, it's hard to fathom.

 

Maybe God should have been smart enough to take into account how we perceive time and describe His return accordingly. Why didn't He? Is He being deceptive? Or was it an oversight on His part?

 

I think it's his way of saying that we have to be God-centered, not me-centered, when we consider a relationship with him. To be able to grasp God, you've got to empty yourself, you've got to "forget" yourself so that you can be filled with his presence. Kinda like that two-year-old child who thinks that he is rightfully the center of the universe: eventually he becomes aware that there are others around him, that his needs are not primary even though they are very important. Faith in God means that you take yourself out of the primary spot and put him there; your needs are being met, but you're aware that there is something much greater than you ...

[Moai]

Yes.

 

No. God created Lucifer who was the head Angel and highest in rank.

Lucifer thought he could take over God's throne, and actually tried to dethrone God in a heavenly coup-de-tat and was punished. He became the devil afterwards.

 

God gave all His creations FREE-WILL. This account is according to Isaiah and what Jesus said.

 

You do not address the point. God created a being with free will, who obviously chose evil. Therefore, God creates evil. This conclusion is inescapable.

 

God must have known Lucifer would do this, and yet He created Him anyway. Either God likes to mess with people and create agents to do just that, or He is not omniscient. At the very least God cannot be absolutely good.

[quankanne]

Either God likes to mess with people and create agents to do just that, or He is not omniscient.

 

or he loves his creation enough to allow them to choose freely, but always hoping that they'll turn to him. Why would he want to mess with minds if he created us out of love?

[Moai]

Adversity helps build character, and helps us to trust God. As you can see in Job, sometimes tests are allowed to see if people are truely devoted to God, or they are just putting on an act because they are blessed and circumstances are going well. The book of Job contains the most insights about what you are raising.

 

I know, I have read it. It is one of the greatest diatribes against God ever, but the writer chickens out at the end. Bummer.

 

It was not an Immortality Magic tree, it was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, it would kill them, and it did. I'm taking your post seriously this time, but it appears that you were jeering in this specific example.

 

I am both serious AND jeering. I quote: Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

See? Right there is a reference to the Tree of Life. Call it what you will (Immortality Magic Tree is more scathing, so I like it better), but God kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden so they couldn't get a that tree. And it's funny, but if there was no death in the Garden before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the first tree, why is God worried about immortality later?

 

No, He did not just decide that. God had foreknowledge (can see into the future), and had planned this before the earth was created.

 

Exactly my point. He knew Lucifer would fall, he knew Adam and Eve ould eat the pple, and on and on and on. If that is the case, there is no such thing as free will. You can't have it both ways.

 

But all of this begs the question as to why a being with absolute control over everything would bother with all of this bizarre tom-foolery.

 

This makes more sence than people do. People, especially people in power in totalitarian states, are too wicked to understand.

 

I understand them, but I don't emulate them or worship them, and when possible work toward their eventual destruction.

 

You want me to take your post seriously? You are raising good points, but loose the jeering and sarcasm. Quote verse and/or fact.

 

You want me to take your religion seriously? Yes, I am jeering, but that is because I am referring to the things you believe as they are. If you don't like it, stop believing it. You have every right to hold whatever wacky beliefs you want, and I will stand beside you in defense of that right, but that doesn't mean I have to respect that belief or can't make fun of it. Actually, I respect your belief, I just don't respect what you believe IN. But I'll cool it after this, I promise. I am enjoying our discussion and I am not trying to belittle you personally.

[Moai]

Rapture, hell, baseless claims. There's no physical proof of unicorns, fairies, or Santa Claus, shall I believe in those too? Life would become unlivable for me. How do people like you get jobs if you believe in all this nonsense?

 

Ha! Funny. I wonder that too sometimes. You'd think there would be more people scarred from kitchen fires walking around, but they seem to manage. The human mind never ceases to amaze me.

[Moai]

I have a friend who likes reading about different religions.What he said does actually in a way prove that about people in those days didnt know about things very well and they didnt know about magic.

 

When moses made the water part it was supposed to be a miricale.Then how come in that very same area.My friend read that at certain times in the day the waters part enough for people to walk across.Maybe he got there at that time of day and made it look like he was perforimng a miracle when actually it wasnt.This to me seems a better explanation.

 

Maybe all the miracles in the bible where a little like this.

 

All miracles in the Bible are exactly like this. A miracle is something that happens that is physically impossible--not improbable, not unlikely, not unexpected--impossible. By definition miracles are impossible. Everything that happens has a rational explanation, whether we have determined it yet or not. Notice there are lots of miracles early in the Bible (when people were more ignorant) and fewer later (when they were less so). There are magicians right now who can do things Jesus could only have dreamt about. Magic is fun and entertaining, but that's all it is.

[Toni_no12002]

Thankyou quankanne and moi.So the bible maybe telling the truth but as people have said it was set years ago and they didnt have the knowledge we have now.So really there are things that can explain all the miracles.But maybe we havent found them all yet.Also maybe the bible is exaggerated a little.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Yep. Name a charity, and you have my word that if the Rapture happens I will give all of my money and time to it as long as I am still on this planet. In return, I ask that until that day you don't abandon your faith (your dedication ot it is commendable), but look critically at some of them men in whom you trust.

 

Is that fair?

 

But, suppose I'm not here and am raptured away, then how am I going to see if you will honour your promise?

[Admiral Thrawn]

And census takers do go door to door. In modern times they use computers which are much more efficient, obviously, but the Romans went door to door. To the houses where people lived.

 

Well, maybe Joseph lived in a different place, or had to be numbered with some other people or relatives, that still does not preclude that, even if they did go door to door. People could jump to different homes and skew up the census.

 

 

Benny Hinn is a scriptural authority????? You have got to be kidding!

 

Sure, you should listen to this guy teach the Bible.

 

That guy is a charlatan of the first rank! And he can interpret it however he wants, common sense would tell me that when I look at someone and tell them that their generation will not pass away before I get back, I mean the people who are listening to me now, not people thousands of years from now. Suggesting otherwise is just stupid.

 

There is no financial benefit on his part by postulating that type of interpretation. Furthermore, as I said, a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to man, so technically, only two 'God-days' have passed, which may be a short time.

 

Whatever. The prophetic community to whom you refer are liars who are only out for your money. And every prophecy they have asserted has been wrong. Every single time. Look at your own book: the Bible says that you will know if prphet is false if his predictions do not come to pass. Theirs don't. So what does that tell you? Hal Lindsey is so wrong it's pathetic. Jack Van Impe, while hilarious, is a nutjob.

 

These scholars never mentioned any specific 'dates' of anything. People like Peter and Paul Lalonde will never strictly make a date. But the facts are, Israel is a nation, and they have genetically resurrected the Red Heifer, to reinsitute sacrifices, another indication of end-time Bible prophecy.

 

Why all this goofy judgement stuff? And why have a "ghost court"? The whole concept is nonsensical and bizarre.

 

Watch it, or you may be in contempt of court. According to the Bible, you will be judged for everything that you have done, and will bow before the Lord Jesus and will declare Him as Lord, no matter what you do or think.

 

That post-Millenium judgement is known as the White Throne Judgement, and it is a judgement of all sinners who have neglected or rejected Christ. This judgement is the second death, and the extent of damnation, or what type of hell would be experienced. Salvation again is not an issue in this judgement, because, only the damned are present here. This is the one mentioned in Revelation, and it is more like a Sentencing court, and the extent of damnation, or severity of it is at issue.

 

This is yet another ad hoc expanation to cover up contradictions, namely about salvation.

 

The point is, you can not conclusively show any contradictions in the Bible.

Instead of coming out with a logically valid rebuff, this is the best you can do is cry sour grapes? Sounds like you dont have any case.

 

 

No, as you can quote the Bible to support naything. We have been over this. I don't care how you interpret the Bible, I am attempting to demonstrate to you why I reject it, and that anyone with their eyes open would reject it, too.

 

Again, you are crying sour grapes. I have come up with explanations fair and square. You only cry sour grapes when you run out of fuel.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I can't breathe underwater,

 

I'm sure you can afford to buy scuba-diving gear.

 

I can't carry 900 times my body weight,

 

You cant rent a truck to haul things?

 

or sonar-locate.

 

We have technology to do that.

 

Certainly we have complex brains and can reason, but other animals can, too.

 

No. We can mimick virtually anything animals can do with our technology, but animals cant do the reverse.

 

They also use tools. Going to the moon is important to us, but meaningless to every other lifeform on earth, so WE think it is special, but in the grand scheme of things it is nothing.

 

It is another example that we have nothing to do with animals.

 

I think it is awesome because we went from the first airplane flight to walking on the Moon in less than 100 years. The human brain is a wonderful thing, and yet your theology suggests that the ability to reason is a curse. Pity.

 

Or I can say, according to your ignorance you dont like to reason because you cry sour grapes every time you reach a dead-end. The Bible is full of reason.

[Admiral Thrawn]

You do not address the point. God created a being with free will, who obviously chose evil. Therefore, God creates evil. This conclusion is inescapable.

 

God must have known Lucifer would do this, and yet He created Him anyway. Either God likes to mess with people and create agents to do just that, or He is not omniscient. At the very least God cannot be absolutely good.

 

That is not a reasonable arguement. You either have a singularity where everybody is going to be robots, or you are going to have free-will, where created beings can choose what they want to do.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I

I am both serious AND jeering. I quote: Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

See? Right there is a reference to the Tree of Life. Call it what you will (Immortality Magic Tree is more scathing, so I like it better), but God kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden so they couldn't get a that tree. And it's funny, but if there was no death in the Garden before Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the first tree, why is God worried about immortality later?

 

The fact is, they ate the fruit, and then they died after - because they were banned from eating the tree of life. The Tree of Life will be available again later once sin is eradicated from the world - it is mentioned in Revelation.

 

Exactly my point. He knew Lucifer would fall, he knew Adam and Eve ould eat the pple, and on and on and on. If that is the case, there is no such thing as free will. You can't have it both ways.

 

Not really, knowing something is going to happen, and being a passive observer ensures that free-will is really occuring. God had no influence on Adam and Eve's decision, other than to tell them, not to eat the fruit of that tree.

 

But all of this begs the question as to why a being with absolute control over everything would bother with all of this bizarre tom-foolery.

 

Because we are not robots.

 

You want me to take your religion seriously?

 

If you want me to reply to your posts in a serious discussion, and take YOUR perspectives seriously, then there is going to have to be a decorum. As you can see, for any legitimate, or interesting issue you have raised, there is an explanation. You have no explanation to justify your own beliefs other than to jeer others.

[a4a]

That is not a reasonable arguement. You either have a singularity where everybody is going to be robots, or you are going to have free-will, where created beings can choose what they want to do.

 

Well that just does not compute.............

 

You are saying that we have free will to believe or not to believe but if we don't believe we will burn in hell forever and ever. So there is no freewill in that case.... really?

 

a4a

[d'Arthez]

The point is, you can not conclusively show any contradictions in the Bible.

Neither have you shown that the Bible is true. A quote from the Bible to prove that the Bible is true will not cut it.

If God had the foreknowledge, he knew he was going to be betrayed. Therefore, he willingly, even inescapably (!) created evil.

 

Like Moai said, if you can come up with a billion ad hoc explanations, we have the liberty too. Grant me the liberty for 9:

 

Nine assumptions that change the world and interpretation of the Bible.

1. "To the poet, to the philosopher, to the saint, all things are friendly and sacred, all events profitable, all days holy, all men divine." - Ralph Waldo Emerson - the task for any man or woman is to acquire that belief.

2. The messianic time is the dying of the State as theorized by Marx and Engels (have you missed the religious undercurrent and references in the work of these prophets?)

3. All Churches, including self-proclaimed "true" churches are false churches - the organized nature of religion is one of the many signs of the devil.

4. We simply solve Christs absence for a long period of time, by stating that he went to the east, and familiarized himself with Taoism and Buddhism. He was a Buddhist, who stressed different aspects of the same belief(s).

5. G-d is poetic. Do not take things literally. Do not ascribe attributes to G-d, for that is limiting him, and furthermore, blasphemous. This also applies to all remarks made in these 9 assumptions.

6. Jesus was a rebellious prophet. The same applies to William Blake (who was indeed a member of a Christian sect, makes for interesting reading).

7. "He who would be serene and pure needs but one thing, detachment." -- Meister Eckhart, are the true words for all religions. Live by it, or face the consequences. From this follows a commandment not to spread hatred, not to try and convert non-believers. They will convert themselves.

8. "When virtue is lost, benevolence appears, when benevolence is lost right conduct appears, when right conduct is lost, expedience appears. Expediency is the mere shadow of right and truth; it is the beginning of disorder." -- Lao-Tzu, which perfectly explains all the falsehoods of modern political and religious (in the blasphemous) way of thinking.

9. The New Bible is the Comedie Humaine by Balzac. It explains everything and is without contradiction. The task of interpretation is not a divine one, but a human one.

 

Good luck!

[quankanne]

So really there are things that can explain all the miracles.

 

in some instances, yes, because we've got historical documents that describe that era, but as you factor in human nature and nature itself, the miracle is that some of these things happened. Kinda like when a woman gives birth – you know that the sperm and the egg combine to create a fetus, but as you study biology, you understand that there are millions of Stanley Spermleys racing to claim that egg and conditions are not always favorable for conception. You also know that there are many different things that could result in miscarriage*… so when that baby is born, he's pretty much beat the odds that were there from the time of conception to the time of delivery. Which makes them pretty miraculous from that viewpoint.

 

You are saying that we have free will to believe or not to believe but if we don't believe we will burn in hell forever and ever. So there is no freewill in that case.... really?

 

if you don't believe, what should it matter if I think you're not getting to heaven? You don't believe in either, therefore the question of your afterlife is moot. However, if you do believe in heaven and hell, you understand that your fate depends solely on your response to the question God puts to you: do you love me? Both these scenarios are possible thanks to the free will a person exercises.

 

the organized nature of religion is one of the many signs of the devil.

 

which is precisely what Satan wants you to believe, that anything that reeks of God is wrong, bad, faulty, etc. That your immortal soul is meaningless, that you should be concerned with the here and now – all tricks designed to draw you away from the God who loves you and wants to be reconciled with you.

[d'Arthez]

which is precisely what Satan wants you to believe, that anything that reeks of God is wrong, bad, faulty, etc. That your immortal soul is meaningless, that you should be concerned with the here and now – all tricks designed to draw you away from the God who loves you and wants to be reconciled with you.

No. Early christianity was without the rigid establishment of the church, preachers and all that. This assumption is merely a protest against the institution of the Church, and the pope as the representative of Christ on earth (how he could be elected by mere mortals is a different, but altogether interesting matter). As for different churches, they are more often than not still rigidly organized - and yes, you could interpret the whole idea of idolatry in a radical fashion, which will lead to this interpretation.

 

And, quank, you are well aware that some groups of Christians have also a theory of predestination. So no matter what you do in your life, God already decided in advance whether or not you go to heaven or hell. So whether or not you believe in God is of no importance for that. Whether or not you sin is of no importance for that.

 

And if Heaven does exist, but you do not believe in the existence of heaven and hell, does not necessarily mean that a non-believer simply dies and goes to neither Heaven or Hell.

Who is to say, which belief is the correct one, especially which set of rules apply to the non-believer?

[a4a]

Who is to say, which belief is the correct one, especially which set of rules apply to the non-believer?

 

According to believers the rules do apply to us non believers...... so again from that point of view there is no true free will..... only the fact that you must believe or suffer. That is not really a choice of free will.

 

a4a

[d'Arthez]

According to believers the rules do apply to us non believers...... so again from that point of view there is no true free will..... only the fact that you must believe or suffer.

Yes, but in the case of predestination, that makes no difference at all. Either you go to heaven or hell. But no sin or virtue will change that.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Neither have you shown that the Bible is true.

 

That is not for me to show.

 

Anyway, we come back to the square one arguement, nobody can prove the Bible is false or true, and at the end of the day, an element of faith is involved as I never said it was a Physics text book.

 

A quote from the Bible to prove that the Bible is true will not cut it.

 

Nothing will cut it for you.

 

If God had the foreknowledge, he knew he was going to be betrayed. Therefore, he willingly, even inescapably (!) created evil.

 

Evil is disobedience. People have to own up the the consequences of their actions, motivations and thoughts, and they will.

 

Like Moai said, if you can come up with a billion ad hoc explanations, we have the liberty too. Grant me the liberty for 9:

 

These are not ad hoc explanations.

 

Nine assumptions that change the world and interpretation of the Bible.

1. "To the poet, to the philosopher, to the saint, all things are friendly and sacred, all events profitable, all days holy, all men divine." - Ralph Waldo Emerson - the task for any man or woman is to acquire that belief.

 

Just having a mental belief is not going to cut it on your death-bed, it has to be real.

 

2. The messianic time is the dying of the State as theorized by Marx and Engels (have you missed the religious undercurrent and references in the work of these prophets?)

 

Communism is dead. Atheism was the official doctrine of the Communist state, and look at how those people are oppressed. Christian Western States, that have allowed the Bible and Gospel to flourish, are generally properous places.

 

3. All Churches, including self-proclaimed "true" churches are false churches - the organized nature of religion is one of the many signs of the devil.

 

Well, many things require organization to function. Don't you brush your teeth in the morning or wake up at a certain time? Is that also of the devil?

 

4. We simply solve Christs absence for a long period of time, by stating that he went to the east, and familiarized himself with Taoism and Buddhism. He was a Buddhist, who stressed different aspects of the same belief(s).

 

This arguement agrees that Christ rose from the dead. That being the case, everything Christ said is validated. He said, He is the ONLY way to the Father. To say otherwise would be to suggest the unthinkable.

 

5. G-d is poetic. Do not take things literally. Do not ascribe attributes to G-d, for that is limiting him, and furthermore, blasphemous. This also applies to all remarks made in these 9 assumptions.

 

God is also predictablle, reliable, faithful, and acts based on His nature and character. Therefore, God is limited by who He is.

 

6. Jesus was a rebellious prophet. The same applies to William Blake (who was indeed a member of a Christian sect, makes for interesting reading).

 

A rebellious prophet is an oxymoron, you can not be rebellious and a prophet at the same time.

 

7. "He who would be serene and pure needs but one thing, detachment." -- Meister Eckhart, are the true words for all religions. Live by it, or face the consequences. From this follows a commandment not to spread hatred, not to try and convert non-believers. They will convert themselves.

 

The Spirit of God deals with unbelievers. If they despise the Spirit, then they are in trouble.

 

8. "When virtue is lost, benevolence appears, when benevolence is lost right conduct appears, when right conduct is lost, expedience appears. Expediency is the mere shadow of right and truth; it is the beginning of disorder." -- Lao-Tzu, which perfectly explains all the falsehoods of modern political and religious (in the blasphemous) way of thinking.

 

The Bible says that man's heart, apart from Christ, is evil, nothing good and enduring can be expected from the human race apart from Christ.

 

9. The New Bible is the Comedie Humaine by Balzac. It explains everything and is without contradiction. The task of interpretation is not a divine one, but a human one.

 

Well, it is not the King James Version Bible, so it doesn't count.

 

Good luck!

 

What are you talking about?

[Admiral Thrawn]

Well that just does not compute.............

 

You are saying that we have free will to believe or not to believe but if we don't believe we will burn in hell forever and ever. So there is no freewill in that case.... really?

 

a4a

 

IN analogy, if you are drowning, and somebody gave you a rope to climb on a boat, and you said, 'the heck with that, I'm going to do it my way, take your rope and stick it', and you end up drowning, isn't that an excercise of free-will too?

[Admiral Thrawn]

Yes' date=' but in the case of predestination, that makes no difference at all. Either you go to heaven or hell. But no sin or virtue will change that.[/quote']

 

Predestination is foreknowledge, isn't it? That means, everything you are going to do tommorow, and the day after, etc... is already known by God before you do it. But, God does not influence or impact what you are going to do tommorow, and the day after, etc... to say, you have to do this, or you have to do that.

 

 

So, I can say, you are predestined to go on the internet again tommorow at X:00, because, I can see in the future, if I were able to actually see into the future. But, if I told you what the future was, then that could interfare with space-time continuum, since you can change your actions. But, I dont believe it is the case that God makes any decisions about their fate, people do, God just knows in advance what people are going to do.

[Bogun]

It appears that your posts in reply to wisdom, and as addressed to me reak of ignorance and a biased attitude problem,

What part of my post smacks of ignorance and a biased attitude admiral? Are you not aware that when christianity emerged 2000 years ago there were two major groups, the literalists and the gnostic christians. The gnostic teachings are the ones I was referring to in my post. They laughed at the the literalists beliefs that god was an external figure and that they would literally rise from their graves when jesus came back. The only reason that the literalists view is the dominant one today is because it was adopted as the state religion.

 

The only ignorance and bias is being shown by you admiral. I grew up as a christian, and then took the time to explore other religions, and then made a decision as to what I believe. I recall that your family is deeply religious, so I will make an assumption that you have never stepped beyond the bounds of christianity to understand other faiths. If you had grown up in china or india or 100 other places, you would not have been brought up with such extreme christian beliefs. You are the one approaching this debate from a biased viewpoint.

 

and you have name calling. It also seems that you were expecting some sort of reply from me. I do not care to respond to ignorance. I have volunteered my time to reply to your other posts because it seemed that you were bringing up reasonable points for discussion, but.

Where have I called you anything other than by your name admiral?? And no I wasn't expecting a reply from you.

 

I do not know what you are doing onw.

Bringing up valid points to counter your extremist views.