Is there really a god?

[Apex]

well you would not care about either a christian wedding or funeral unless you wanted to be a christian. do you want to be a christian?

you say you want to believe in god, i assume you are talking about the christian god because all your questions are related to christianity. what are your reasons for wanting to be a christian?

i am only asking these questions because i want to know what YOU believe in.

She said she chooses to reject God, but she still wants to reap the rewards and privileges awarded to Christians by God and other Christians.

She seems to think God (if he exists) is an afterlife service provider, and fails to understand why he doesn’t advertise it with his power and presence.

She sees God (if he exists) as a human-like being, and maybe as an equal.

She thinks God (if he exists) is subject to conventional physics and chemistry. I’m sure most Christians believe that God supersedes conventional physics and chemistry.

She can’t understand faith, and I think she sees it as a form of superstition.

She seems to have a certain amount of anger directed to God (ironically, assuming he exists) for a recent death in her family.

I don’t think she understands science any more than religion despite her willingness to believe in science.

I think it mostly boils down to a sense of entitlement.

I also think she lacks the aptitude.

[Toni_no12002]

Why just because you are religious do you all of a sudden believe you have the right to reap the rewards also.Just because you have faith in a god that hasnt been proven exists doesnt mean you are in any way better or worse and deserve more than me!It annoys me that Because i find it difficult to believe in god that i dont deserve to go into an afterlife if there is any of course.

 

Yes i am angry well more upset about my nanna dying who wouldnt be.

 

How come you think that you know everything apex?No one knows all just because you believe in something doesnt automatically make it right.Who in this world doesnt do things for there selves?

 

Tell me do you believe in god just because everyone says you should or is it to reap the benefits?

 

Im annoyed that you talked about me saying that i dont want to believe in god but yet i want the rewards.Maybe i dont believe in god but why dont i deserve things you dont deserve anything anymore than i do.

 

The bible might not be right and no one can prove it like no one can prove its wrong!You make me out to be some nasty person!

 

Actually ive tried numerous times to look into religion but just couldnt bring myself to believe.So many people tell me god wanted her to come into the afterlife and bla bla bla who else should i blame?

 

In the christning it said that god takes people into the afterlife to feed himself.Or something along them lines.So it wasnt god who took her hummmm well someones lying!

[quankanne]

I don't think Apex is trying to put you down, Toni, but placing into a nutshell what this thread is about, based on your answers. From the faith perspective, it's easy to say that you're searching, but from a practical perspective, it's easy to ask "if she's leaning more toward disbelief than belief, what does it matter what happens in the afterlife?" There are conflicting issues here, and it gets maddening when it feels that for every step forward, there are two going backward.

 

I went to a christning yesterday.My friend was a godmother she doesnt believe in god does that matter?

 

my girlfriend, an avowed atheist, was asked to be the godmother of a friend's daughter, the baby was baptized Catholic. Morally, she has given cause for scandal because she's not a believer, and the whole idea of a "godparent" is for the child to have someone model the faith and guide him or her on the spiritual journey. Here in my diocese, you cannot be a godparent if you've not received the sacraments or are not in communion with the church: i.e., if you're shacking up, you cannot be a godparent. If you haven't been confirmed or married in the church (should the situation apply), you cannot be a godparent. Sounds nitpicky, but it's to ensure that baby and his parents and godparents are living a Christian life in communion with the church. No one is exempt; to claim your faith, you've got to be true to it.

 

Not sure how other Christian churches do it, but I'm sure there also are rules that apply, simply because a godparent is a role model who is stepping forth to say 'I promise to dedicate my life to making sure this child receives Christian formation.' It's not about anything else.

 

Also im not christned eithwer so that means i cannot get married in a church and i cannot have a proper funeral! I think thats not fair. I thought we all was the children of god so he is treating us unfairly.

 

again, this goes back to the sense of entitlement that apex is talking about – if you are not a believer, or cannot decide to believe, why should it be important that you be married in a church or have a "proper" funeral? You can still plan a nice wedding outside a church, and still be legally married; same with the funeral – you don't have to be a believer to have all the trappings for a big fancy send-off. I wonder if you feel that you're missing out on something just because you don't believe, and you're blaming it on God? All he asks is for your love, nothing more. The "rules and regulations" are part of a man-made church.

 

at some point, you're going to have to get off the fence and start doing your own research instead of asking us to give you what you need – we are limited, at best, about sharing what faith is. This is something you're going to have to reach out and grab with both hands, you're going to have to make that leap of faith on your own, though others will be there to guide you as need be.

 

I cannot help the fact my parents didnt christen me and i sure as hell cant afford it now!

 

you have to pay to be christened? As I've understood, getting baptized is about the spiritual journey, not the trappings of the celebration that follows. For you to be thinking of it in monetary terms makes me wonder if you're looking at it from an improper perspective. Faith doesn't cost money, nor should it.

 

if you're serious about becoming a believer, or even are curious about it, you're going to have to leave the sidelines and get into the game. You may find what you're looking for, you may not – still, it's only something you can do, not others.

[newbby]

Why just because you are religious do you all of a sudden believe you have the right to reap the rewards also.Just because you have faith in a god that hasnt been proven exists doesnt mean you are in any way better or worse and deserve more than me!It annoys me that Because i find it difficult to believe in god that i dont deserve to go into an afterlife if there is any of course.

 

 

toni do you not see the contradiction here?

this is what apex was talking about.

you are getting upset because you are worried that you may not go to heaven if you dont believe in christianity. well if you dont believe in christianity then you also dont believe that you wont go to heaven because of it.

do you understand?

[quankanne]

maybe we could find the nearest hell-house and arrange a visit? :bunny: :bunny:

[Toni_no12002]

I am just interested in this stuff.If im honest i dont believe there is an afterlife so it wouldnt matter if i had a religion or not.From what everyones been telling me ive thought about it all and im still no nearer to believing.It all seems so false.Everyone who believes in god your telling me your doing it why?I cant think of any other reason except that a book says you should and the church says you should.Sometimes i think people believe in this stuff because they like to think someone is in control of all this mess we have got ourselves into and it makes people sleep better at night.

 

Sometimes i believe religion to be a cruel thing and people who believe in it are no better than anybody else.

 

Well what are the reason that you believe ?because books say he is god and that he should be bowed down to.Come on it seems funny to me.I dont know anyone that doesnt believe in god because of there own gain!

[newbby]

maybe we could find the nearest hell-house and arrange a visit? :bunny: :bunny:

 

i dont know what you mean by this quankanne:confused:

[newbby]

I am just interested in this stuff.If im honest i dont believe there is an afterlife so it wouldnt matter if i had a religion or not.From what everyones been telling me ive thought about it all and im still no nearer to believing.It all seems so false.Everyone who believes in god your telling me your doing it why?I cant think of any other reason except that a book says you should and the church says you should.Sometimes i think people believe in this stuff because they like to think someone is in control of all this mess we have got ourselves into and it makes people sleep better at night.

 

Sometimes i believe religion to be a cruel thing and people who believe in it are no better than anybody else.

 

Well what are the reason that you believe ?because books say he is god and that he should be bowed down to.Come on it seems funny to me.I dont know anyone that doesnt believe in god because of there own gain!

 

toni once again, you are talking about christianity only.

i am NOT a christian and i believe in god. i dont care what you believe in as long as you are happy and giving out happiness, but your belief that there is only one way of believing in god and your apparent lack of understanding even about that way, annoys me.

[quankanne]

newb -- someone started a thread on Hell Houses during the Halloween season. Basically, they're like haunted houses, but instead of goblins and ghosts, real-life scenarios with repercussions are shown, that if you "choose wrong," you end up in hell. Basically it's a tool used by some Christian churches to scare people to God by showing them the alternative. Thus the term "hell house."

 

If im honest i dont believe there is an afterlife so it wouldnt matter if i had a religion or not.From what everyones been telling me ive thought about it all and im still no nearer to believing.It all seems so false.

 

there you go! You don't believe, therefore, what happens in the afterlife is of no relevance because there IS no afterlife, and what others (believers) do is of no concern because they believe in nothing. Sounds like a no-brainer to me ...

 

Everyone who believes in god your telling me your doing it why? … Well what are the reason that you believe?

 

we were raised to believe that God is love. That we are his beloved, that Christ loved us so much that he sacrificed himself so that we could live eternally with the Father after our days on earth. Explaining ]why I believe is much harder, because it's such a highly subjective issue that cannot be explained in a way that everyone understands. Suffice to say, knowing that I am his, and he is mine, is enough ~ what more can I want, spiritually? I love this life, but in the grand scheme of things, it's nothing. Absolutely nothing, because I am not immortal, because something tells me there is more than what is on the temporal plane. I cannot prove it, yet I believe. And that's enough for me.

[Apex]

I am just interested in this stuff.If im honest i dont believe there is an afterlife so it wouldnt matter if i had a religion or not.From what everyones been telling me ive thought about it all and im still no nearer to believing.It all seems so false.Everyone who believes in god your telling me your doing it why?I cant think of any other reason except that a book says you should and the church says you should.Sometimes i think people believe in this stuff because they like to think someone is in control of all this mess we have got ourselves into and it makes people sleep better at night.

You are not interested in this stuff. You might have learned something if you actually paid attention.

Sometimes i believe religion to be a cruel thing and people who believe in it are no better than anybody else.

I think leading people on and manipulating them is creul.

Well what are the reason that you believe ?because books say he is god and that he should be bowed down to.Come on it seems funny to me.I dont know anyone that doesnt believe in god because of there own gain!

People that believe that everyone lies are often themselves full of lies. I think the same is true for selfish people.

 

 

This whole thread reminds me of a little girl who liked to ask “why?” She never listened to the answers.

[Apex]

there you go! You don't believe, therefore, what happens in the afterlife is of no relevance because there IS no afterlife, and what others (believers) do is of no concern because they believe in nothing. Sounds like a no-brainer to me ...

I remember saying something like that several times 100s of posts ago.

You can say the same thing about not believing in the existence of God, and blaming him for so-and-so.

[quankanne]

ah, but hope springs eternal ~ something will click eventually!

[Apex]

ah, but hope springs eternal ~ something will click eventually!

I don’t think she is as sweet or innocent as she makes herself out to be.

[Toni_no12002]

I have listened to the answers and i dont feel i know anymore than before.

 

Who was you refering to in your last post apex?

 

I want to understand i really do but its so complicated.You cant all say that you never doubted him a little even at first.

 

Why am i leading people on and malipulating them?

 

Yes i ask questions but thats the way you find out things.Its up to me if i believe it or not.Thats why i was trying to find out stuff in the first place.

 

I never said i was sweet and innocent no one is totally but i know for a fact im not nasty.So quit talking about me like that.

[ButtonPusher]

Who was you refering to in your last post apex?

He is talking about you toni.

I have listened to the answers and i dont feel i know anymore than before.

I would say that they are getting annoyed by you because you have been given different points of view on "god" and religion, yet you still ask the same questions that you were asking at the beginning. I have seen at least 4 different religions from amongst the people replying to you, so its not as though you have only been exposed to one religion, and several people have suggested that the best thing for you to do would be to educate yourself about different religions, by reading some books, and by visiting churches and other spiritual centres. This thread has been going for almost 2 months, and it doesn't seem like you have taken that advice.

[Apex]

I would say that they are getting annoyed by you because you have been given different points of view on "god" and religion, yet you still ask the same questions that you were asking at the beginning.

The word for it is dense.

I have a hard time believing anybody is this dense.

[Toni_no12002]

I have looked it up on the internet.I cant go to churches as i have my kid with me all the time so its a little difficult.

 

I have listened to what people have said but im finding it hard to understand.Its extremley difficult to believe in religion when everyone else around you thinks its stupid.Ive been brought up that way.Im not saying that what all of you believe is stupid but if you believe in all that stuff round here people act like your different.

 

This stuff isnt that easy to understand.Why god is the way he is etc.Maybe all you lot think it is but it isnt trust me.I dont understand why your all getting annoyed with me.im trying to take it all in and yes i maybe asking the same questions but if i understood i wouldnt have to.

 

I have got a lot of things on my mind at the minute.I would appreciate it if you would stop acting like i dont care because i do because why would i ask in the first place.

 

Maybe im finding out because i want to believe my nanna has gone to a better place.But whats so wrong with that.I loved my nanna and i think thats the least she deserves.

[erika2610]

I have looked it up on the internet.I cant go to churches as i have my kid with me all the time so its a little difficult.

 

I have listened to what people have said but im finding it hard to understand.Its extremley difficult to believe in religion when everyone else around you thinks its stupid.Ive been brought up that way.Im not saying that what all of you believe is stupid but if you believe in all that stuff round here people act like your different.

 

This stuff isnt that easy to understand.Why god is the way he is etc.Maybe all you lot think it is but it isnt trust me.I dont understand why your all getting annoyed with me.im trying to take it all in and yes i maybe asking the same questions but if i understood i wouldnt have to.

 

I have got a lot of things on my mind at the minute.I would appreciate it if you would stop acting like i dont care because i do because why would i ask in the first place.

 

Maybe im finding out because i want to believe my nanna has gone to a better place.But whats so wrong with that.I loved my nanna and i think thats the least she deserves.

 

You have stated that you don't believe in the afterlife. This thread has been going on too long. Way too long. Why don't you go talk to a priest? Or leave your son with a babysitter and go to church sometime? I mean honestly... how many posts are here and you're no closer to understanding than you were at the beginning? You ask why people believe in God.. people believe for different reasons. And no, I for one, have never doubted him. That's what keeps me going, and makes me always trying to be a better person.. faith.

[sylviaguardian]

Toni,

 

Sometimes I wish I could believe in God - it would make everything a lot easier right? But I can't believe (too much of a scientist) and you either have that belief or you don't, I think.

 

So I suppose I don't believe that people 'go' somewhere when they die. What I like to think though is that when people die, the atoms in their body are released and they are used to make other things so in a way nobody ever 'dies' as such. It's a bit like this poem:

 

I am a thousand winds that blow.

I am the diamond glint on snow.

I am the sunlight on ripened grain.

I am the gentle autumn rain.

 

When you wake in the morning hush,

I am the swift, uplifting rush

Of quiet birds in circling flight.

I am the soft starlight at night.

 

Do not stand at my grave and weep.

I am not there, I do not sleep.

Do not stand at my grave and cry.

I am not there, I did not die.

Mary Frye (1932)

 

My Grandad died on a summer's evening and on the night he died, I was looking out of the window into the garden and I had such a strong sense that he had been released and was free.

 

The other thing is that people do not exist only in themselves. We exist also partly in the minds of other people. In this sense, your Nana will never die. All the things she taught you are still inside of you. I hope this helps.

 

Sylvia

 

PS If you really want to go to church there are loads of churches that have sunday schools where the kids go during the service. I sat through many of them as a child!

[newbby]

sylvia, i love that poem

[Apex]

Sometimes I wish I could believe in God - it would make everything a lot easier right? But I can't believe (too much of a scientist) and you either have that belief or you don't, I think.

She seems to have trouble understanding altogether. If people are willing to spend the time typing up all of these posts, then she should have the courtesy to read and reread those posts.

 

I don’t understand why some people think science and religion are mutually exclusive. Is this some sort of bias or snobbery?

So I suppose I don't believe that people 'go' somewhere when they die. What I like to think though is that when people die, the atoms in their body are released and they are used to make other things so in a way nobody ever 'dies' as such.

Those atoms are in constant circulation e.g. carbon-14.

[Toni_no12002]

I do read them.Just because i read them though doesnt mean i understand them fully.I dont understand god and his ways plain and simple.Its got nothing to do with courtsey ive thanked people numerous times for putting things and im trying so hard to understand.Why else would i keep coming back on here.You dont know me so dont make judgements.You dont know what im going through right now.Its so hard at the minute with everything going on and i thought maybe if i looked to god maybe i could find some way of finding out why etc.

 

Im sorry if i have been wasting everyones time and im sorry if any of you are getting fed up with me.Thats the last thing i wanted.My minds abit up and down at the minute.Ive apologised and i hope that everyone accepts my apology.I wont write anymore on this because clearly i think people are fed up.Thanks for helping anyway.

[Becoming]

Toni--

 

You have to make a distinction between the church and the reality of God. The church bears witness to what they know to be true--that there is a God, who, despite all evidence to the contrary, loves us and wants good for us. The church is just a bunch of imperfect slobs like me who know themselves to be living in grace and wanting to give thanks for the goodness we sometimes get in this screwed-up world. But all language falls short of being able to describe what people of faith perceive to be true. The best we can do is stumbling metaphors (God is like . . . ).

 

You can read about God and think about God but knowing God is a leap of faith that that power is there loving you even though you don't understand it and can't know it like the workings of the internal combustion engine, or control it. In the abyss of the mystery that surrounds our lives, some of us find not nothing but Something that has the character of personality even though it's not a person per se. This is a deeper perception, an intuition, proven by the fact that people actually take care of one another rather than put 'em down or kill 'em just to get what they want. God's not some cranky guy up in the sky zapping Nanas with thunderbolts but more like a force for good guiding us and loving us and sustaining us even in the midst of a whole lot of crap like people dying from genocides that are not in accord with the divine intentions.

 

Pray and see what happens--honestly pray, nothing fancy. Maybe your first prayer is to just let God have it, unload all your anger and then watch what happens deep inside you. Then maybe a prayer like "God, I don't know if you're really there, but I'd like to know. Could you help me out here?" Get a modern translation Bible and read it after such a prayer. You could start reading one of the gospels in the New Testament just like you're reading a book, with an open mind. Or find a Bible study group to join to help you understand. After praying you may not feel anything like some do, or you might. But watch and see what happens in your life. Even some of these replies may be God trying to get a word in edgewise. Who knows?

 

It sounds like the churches you've been going to aren't helping you much. If you have questions about church services, ask. Christians don't feed babies to the afterlife, so you're misunderstanding some of the symbols and metaphors.

 

Keep searching with an open mind, though, because if you really want to know, you won't with a mind already made up against God. We can't see when we've chosen to put on a sleep mask. But spending so much energy being angry indicates to me that you're a person who has some faith that there is a God or you wouldn't bother.

 

It could be said that real faith, faith, not knowledge (which keeps us in the God position) can only begin in angry doubt.

 

Best wishes! But relgion isn't something you learn about from afar; you just have to get in there and participate as much as you're able, ask questions, argue, ponder, study, and pray. You can't understand God and God's ways without a lot of practice. And even then you may only get a faint outline, but that's enough.

[ButtonPusher]

Ok, so you have trouble believing in god. But Toni, you don't have to believe in god to be happy. You don't have to believe in god so that you can feel comforted that your grandmother has gone to a nice place. I don't believe in god, and I am happier now than I ever was while I blindly believed in christianity. Well to be more precise, I don't feel the need to believe in god. If god exists, thats fine, if he doesn't thats also fine with me. I'm a buddhist, (I'm not trying to convert you), because I asked all the questions that you ask and a lot of other ones, and for me buddhism made the most sense. Buddhism acknowledges heaven and hell realms, but views them as just another mortal existence that will end at some point. In buddhism, when people die they will go to wherever their kamma takes them. So if they have been decent people, loving, generous etc, then they will either be reborn in a heavenly realm, or as a human in a good place.

I think there are a lot of good things about christianity and the other monotheistic religions, and I admire the people that do adhere to the teachings in the new testament, but for me it didn't seem right the way that christians blindly rely on faith so much. Whereas buddhism is based on developing the knowledge of our existence and what happens to us after death. No offence to the christians here, this is just what felt right for me.

If you look closely at most religions, they are really guidelines for living your life. Whether you believe in god or not really doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned. I think its more important that you work on making yourself a better person. And if the god in the new testament in the bible does exist then I doubt he'd reject you from heaven simply because you didn't believe in him, but you were a generous and caring person.

[Toni_no12002]

Thanks .Its just strange all this stuff to me.When my nanna died i realised id probably never see her again and that hurts the most.There was things i never said to her when she was alive which i wish i would have said.Maybe she can hear me.I guess i wont know until its my time