Is there really a god?

[Admiral Thrawn]

True.

 

 

False. I do not have free will. Simply because God already knows what I will. If he would not know what I will, he would not have foreknowledge of what I will. If he does know what I will, I cannot will freely.

 

Are you for real? You agreed that knowledge about the future does not mean manipulation about the future, because it is only knowledge. So, how would you suggest you wouldn't have free will become another person has knowledge about your future? It is still only knowledge. Just like your past is knowledge to you.

 

However, the consequences of your actions and decisions are known. Your future without Christ is ultimately hell, and your future with Christ, is ultimately heaven, so you too have foreknowledge. Are you going to accept Christ, and ultimately go to heaven? If you want your future there, then I guess you'll do it right? Like I said, you have free-will.

 

No. But it already implies that what is going on is predetermined. If I were to fill a bowl with water, by putting it under the tap, I will know even if I leave the room that the water will remain running. And if I don't return, and the water flows over the edges of the bowl, so be it. But it does not imply that because it would be a waste of water or what not that the tap automatically closes itself down, because so is as I willed. That would be attributing (my) purpose to the tap, which is laughable at best.

Now, if God knows whether or not I am going to return to the tap, to close it down (or not) it does not alter the fact that he knows beforehand whether or not I will return in time to close the tap. I may be under a lot of illusions with regards to the question whether or not I will return to the tap - but not to the point that I can change the future as God knows it. Therefore, I may have the illusion of free will but it simply does not exist.

 

You cant admit to the true assertion that knowledge of the future does not constitute manipulation, and then attempt to prove the exact opposite afterwards. I really do not even understand your position.

 

You would. I probably would not. But as the results (which the winning ticket is) is already known by God, there is nothing a human can do to alter what ticket will be the winning one. Therefore, the whole concept of attributing human free will to the idea of the determination of what the winning ticket will be, is flawed.

 

A human with foreknowledge of the future, will manipulate present events for personal gain. On the other hand, God, with knowledge of our future events, does not force people's free-wills, even it may be in God's best interests. God does prophecy to people at times, about bad decisions they are going to make that may severely reduce the quality of their temporal lives, but that doesn't mean people are going to listen. I did not listen to such a prophecy and suffered because of it. God had foreknowledge, however, that this would have happened, although He did everything possible in the beginning to try to stop me. So, I maintain the integrity of free-will.

 

And is gambling not forbidden in the Bible itself?

 

People have free-will to gamble if they want to. God has foreknowledge before someone chooses to gamble. Dont you think, if there was no free-will, as you said, then wouldn't nobody gamble?

 

If we continue on the foreknowledge thing, you cannot even attribute freedom to God. Let alone what God wants. As he becomes a pawn in his own creation

For if he has foreknowledge, he knows exactly what will happen. Yet at the same time in as far as divine foreknowledge is infallible, he is utterly unable to change the course of events. Were it otherwise, his foreknowledge would be fallible and flawed. Now the next step is to simply apply the resulting thoughts on the whole creation. Which results in unfreedom for God, as imposed by himself from the start of Creation.

 

I never asserted that God can do anything - for example, God is constrained to His personality and nature. God can not, for example, break any of the commandments. This is a drift from the topic of foreknowledge and free-will though.

 

What we perceive to be freedom of choice is a gross misunderstanding of the Divine. Freedom does not exist at all.

 

You are twisting the defination of freedom. Try living in Stalanist Russia for a week, and then lets talk about freedom again.

 

Free-will is a joke. In your own argument God's will is not free. Because God cannot change things to make them fit. No matter how you look at that, that is a limitation. You, with limited understanding perceive it as free will. But that does not make it true.

 

You are twisting one arguement with another one that is completely different. We are talking about human free-will and divine foreknowledge. As I said, God does not act contrary to His nature.

 

Yes. For a nickname is of no relevance to God

 

How do you know that?

[Admiral Thrawn]

Admiral, I notice you haven't commented on my post about the gnostic christians. Do you doubt there existence? Do you dismiss them as being the work of the devil too?

 

Where is that post? I only know of Agnostic thread after this one, not a gnostic thread.

[Toni_no12002]

To be honest we can all argue until where blue in the face about wether god exists or not but it wont get us anywhere.One person will say something that they believe means god isnt real then someone will come up with something better saying there is.

 

No one can be 100% sure that god exists or that he doesnt exist.I guess we will all find out one day.

 

Maybe i have commited sins but hey i bet maybe a few people on here have done worse.Im not a bad person.But id better get used to the idea of going to hell as i dont believe in god.Id be quite happy to just die and feel nothing.To me that sounds like heaven.I wont feel pain,anger or hurt so maybe that is what heaven is actually like!

[Moai]

What are you trying to say? You believe they took the census or not?

 

No, I don't. The author obviously doesn't understand why a government would conduct a census.

 

There is a principle of 'annointed one' in the Bible. If someone is 'annointed' for a specific Ministry, even if they apostasice, or act in a way that is contrary to that 'annointing' does not influence their status.

 

The theological proof of that is the conflict between David and Saul in the Bible. Even though at one point, Saul became a renegade, David still respected his 'annointing' from God, and did not kill him when he had opportunity to.

 

It must be great to be get the annointing and then pick up hookers, cheat the sick and the old and the gullible and have believers still listen to you.

 

I believe that a person who is annointed with God, can fall into sin, as anyone can, and they will be judged accordingly by God, but they may still exhibit gifts from the Spirit. That is why the Bible says, that even though someone may have done many good works for the Kingdom of Christ, does not necessarily mean they will make it if they are fundamentally putting on a show and are not real.

 

So you can wallow in sin and still have gifts of the spirit. You don't even live on the same planet as I do. I am not saying that to be ofensive, but on your planet the are gifts of the spirit and demons and Satan tempting you, while on my planet the natural world is governed by physical laws that can be understood through study, experimentation, and observation.

 

Look at the track record of each belief system, and see for yourself which is better. Virtually everything worth a damn in your life comes directly from the idea that there is a rational explanation for everything.

 

I can see that Swaggart, Hinn, Rod Parsley et. al. are liars and cheats, prey on the hope of the sick, old, and gullible. Because of your "faith" in the Spirit or the Annointing or whatever you accept what they do without a second thought. It would be funny if it weren't so sad--and cruel.

 

There is no problems of this nature from this Evangelist to date, it appears he has been victorious with this past problem and serves as a great example to people who are struggling with sin, that any sin can be overcome by the grace of God.

 

Obviously Swaggart can't stop seeing hookers and cheating onhis wife. Surely someone with the annointing would have the help of the Holy SPirit to defeat this problem.

 

Where do you think he gets the money for these women he has sex with? From the poor saps who watch his programs and send him money. They give money to help the cause of the Lord and he takes that money and buys whores with it. What a great guy.

 

It is perfectly normal for Christians to be struggling with sin, as long as they overcome it at the end of the day (by trusting in God and not their own will-power). Unlike humans, God always forgives sin.

 

Swaggart hasn't. He hasn't even tried.

 

Everyone has a sin-problem, yours may not be lust, maybe it is doubt.

 

Both! I don't think either one is a particular sin, thoguh. But I control my lust and I doubt because I'm not stupid. I was taught how to read critically and I use that tool all the time. I don't even agree with the concept of sin in the first place.

 

Because He is God. Why did Jesus choose fishermen to be His disciples?

 

Fishermen aren't liars and cheats by definition.

 

You only know the 'media''s truth, but even you know, sometimes the media dont tell the whole truth. Look at the Gulf war, you think the media is giving a fair unbiased representatoin? You think it is fair with Jimmy Swaggart? Of course not. Guess who owns the media?

 

I use the same tools that lead me to the conclusion that there is no god to assess the value of the information I see in the media. The Hinn programs on NBC were well done and I also watch his own program. I saw Swaggart pick up a hooker on film, and saw him weep when apologizing the first time. I really don't think that the media is lying.

 

And no, I don't know who owns the media. Jews, maybe?

 

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. What Jimmy Swaggart did is between God and himself.

 

No, it is also between Swaggart and the people he is essentially stealing from.

 

God forgives sin. That is why Jesus came to earth, He came to die for our sins. That is what it is all about. You are talking about a sin of passion here, not lying or Blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

 

Well, then I guess I am worse than Swaggart, then, because I have blashphemed against the Holy SPirit on numerous occaisions. I am sure I will again. If God wants to send me to Hell for a thought crime but let Swaggart, Hinn, Tilton etc. get away with stealing and lying in His name, I don't want to go to Heaven and hang out with Him anyway. His values are totally screwed up.

 

Or because God forgives and forgets.

 

No, He doesn't. Your whole religion is based on the fact that God holds a grudge against humanity becaus ONE MAN ate something he wasn't supposed to.

 

Go to the Ministry web-site and ask them. I'm sure they will say they are doing lots of things that are charitable, and evangelising the world. They are using the money to save and help people.

 

I doubt it. But I am sure they will say they do. And they also use the money for hookers, private jets, expensive hotels, watches, and homes.

 

The point I'm making is about being less than perfect. The Bible does not teach sinless perfection.

 

There is a difference between being less than perfect and being a criminal.

 

Why not? Don't you have two different geneologies from both your parents?

 

THe way the text reads it is suggested that both are for Joseph.

[d'Arthez]

So, how would you suggest you wouldn't have free will become another person has knowledge about your future?

You are calling God a person here. Wow, I never cease to be amazed by the blaphemy put forward by self-proclaimed believers. He necessarily knows what I will be doing. So from the point of God I cannot have free will - if I and others where to have it, it is impossible to foreknow what is going to happen.

Say: God foreknows I will be wearing a specific red sweater tomorrow. Whatever happens exactly I must be wearing that red sweater tomorrow. If it were otherwise, God's foreknowledge would be proven flawed, right?

So I may think I have a choice between sweater #1, #2 and the red one. But I don't - as only the red one will suffice. Therefore I cannot have free will. We can only use it as an explanation, as our knowledge is not perfect. However, that cannot apply to God.

We can only behave in accordance with God's foreknowledge. So if I were to go to hell, because I am a non-believer, God already knows. And no matter what I do, my fate is already known, and with that already sealed. I simply do not know yet. But that does not mean God grants me the possibility to change the future. Because it is already known what will happen - we simply have the illusion that we get a possibility to make changes.

 

Now, I am perfectly aware that people sometimes need illusions to believe in. Some illusions are more sensible than others.

 

However, the consequences of your actions and decisions are known.

Even more. My "actions and decisions" are known beforehand by God. Otherwise he would not have foreknowledge. Is that so hard to comprehend? If I were to punch a kid in its face, it would be idiotic to say that God only knows what the consequences are of that act, but not know of the act itself. It also makes no sense at all to claim something like that.

 

Your future without Christ is ultimately hell, and your future with Christ, is ultimately heaven, so you too have foreknowledge.

Nonsense. You are speaking for God again - and also forgetting about the prophecy itself.

It is already known by God whether or not I will convert. I do not know whether or not I will convert, even if I had strong desires.

 

Proclaiming yourself to be a Christian is not a way to heaven. And if it is, I will take the liberty to proclaim that the majority of Christians are charlatans. And yes, God already knows what you will answer, and therefore whether or not I will proclaim this.

 

Are you going to accept Christ, and ultimately go to heaven?

Only God knows. And only God knows when I die. To proclaim otherwise, is blasphemy. On which you already have a more than indecent score.

 

You cant admit to the true assertion that knowledge of the future does not constitute manipulation, and then attempt to prove the exact opposite afterwards. I really do not even understand your position.

It is not my fault if you lack understanding of logic. And with logic you can prove the absurd true, as long as you have a premisse that is simply false. If my conclusion is absurd, that can only be the result of a flawed premisse - a premisse I allowed myself to make, as it was part of the truth (at least in your interpretation of the KJV).

 

A human with foreknowledge of the future, will manipulate present events for personal gain.

Is that why you use the "foreknowledge" of eternal hell and damnation? And again, that is confusing the Divine with the human(e). So Moses was a fraud when he went to Pharaoh?

 

On the other hand, God, with knowledge of our future events, does not force people's free-wills, even it may be in God's best interests.

Because they do not have free-wills. Certainly not from the standpoint of God. And you are speaking for God again.

 

God does prophecy to people at times, about bad decisions they are going to make that may severely reduce the quality of their temporal lives, but that doesn't mean people are going to listen.

Of course it does not mean that people are going to listen. It could not even be otherwise. However, this idea already goes against your idea of God as a passive spectator. You can't have a passive and an active God at the same time. The whole attribution of two limiting and contrary attributes shows the attribution cannot be made.

 

I did not listen to such a prophecy and suffered because of it. God had foreknowledge, however, that this would have happened, although He did everything possible in the beginning to try to stop me.

Did everything possible? As a passive spectator that does not act upon the world in any form (which are your own words).

 

It is like playing tennis, but not hitting a ball, being on court or even have a racket to use, or having an opponent - and still claim that you won the game. Shall I write to the organizers of the US Open, that I am still waiting for the check of the winner?

 

People have free-will to gamble if they want to. God has foreknowledge before someone chooses to gamble. Dont you think, if there was no free-will, as you said, then wouldn't nobody gamble?

Why do you think free-will is a necessity to gamble? If it were, Christians should simply reintroduce slavery, and the harshest of degradations should be inflicted upon man, making it impossible for man to sin. Christians should do everything to undermine free-will (as they define it).

 

I never asserted that God can do anything - for example, God is constrained to His personality and nature. God can not, for example, break any of the commandments. This is a drift from the topic of foreknowledge and free-will though.

God has a personality? Careful, you are being blasphemous again - presenting it as if God is Human. As for breaking any of the commandments, that is a limitation on God's Freedom. Inconsequential. But still a limitation. God has no Freedom, because he does not need Freedom. We do not have human freedom, but think otherwise.

 

You are twisting the defination of freedom. Try living in Stalanist Russia for a week, and then lets talk about freedom again.

Can you please buy me a ticket to Russia, 1951? I always wanted to shake hands with Joe Stalin - I am not an admirer of the guy, but I always wanted to shake hands with a person I could not even have met in my life-time. Sigmund Freud, or Churchill will also suffice though. And if you can't arrange for that Balzac, please.

 

There was a lot of unfreedom there. But that does not imply there is no unfreedom in the US or Canada. You are simply confusing the Human with the Divine. And stop "twisting" (which is funny, as you are apparently omniscient yourself as you are constantly speaking for God) of the argument to some knee-jerk reactions.

 

You are twisting one arguement with another one that is completely different. We are talking about human free-will and divine foreknowledge. As I said, God does not act contrary to His nature.

Which does mean, God has not a Divine free will. For is he had it, he would not necessarily be a passive spectator, as you had described him yourself. The problem is your assumption of free will, not my explanation.

 

 

How do you know that?

Good question. Merely repeating what you implied earlier.

[silktricks]

In my opinion there is a god, though you'd never know it by watching and listening to most of the people who profess to believe in him.

[Admiral Thrawn]

It must be great to be get the annointing and then pick up hookers, cheat the sick and the old and the gullible and have believers still listen to you.

 

You are making a judgement. Jimmy Swaggart may have slipped before, and whether he went to a prostitute or not and went all the way is something that is contested to this day. The fact is, his ministry is on tract, and he is not into that now.

 

So you can wallow in sin and still have gifts of the spirit. You don't even live on the same planet as I do. I am not saying that to be ofensive, but on your planet the are gifts of the spirit and demons and Satan tempting you, while on my planet the natural world is governed by physical laws that can be understood through study, experimentation, and observation.

 

Then I have a better world then you do, because mine would be the same as yours, plus an overlapping parallel dimension that is in synch with the pysical world or that influences real-world events behind the scenes and vice-versa.

 

These two worlds are known as 'the natural world' and the 'spiritual world', so belief in the latter does not negate the former. However, your belief system would be more limited, and having one more is better than having one less.

 

There is enough underlying evidence that would lend credence to a parallel dimension.

 

Look at the track record of each belief system, and see for yourself which is better. Virtually everything worth a damn in your life comes directly from the idea that there is a rational explanation for everything.

 

The fact is, there is no a rational explanation for everything, and even you know that.

 

I can see that Swaggart, Hinn, Rod Parsley et. al. are liars and cheats, prey on the hope of the sick, old, and gullible. Because of your "faith" in the Spirit or the Annointing or whatever you accept what they do without a second thought. It would be funny if it weren't so sad--and cruel.

 

That is your opinion of them, as brainwashed by the media. The fact of the matter, is Jimmy Swaggart slipped once or even twice in his life as you suggest, then so be it. He is also a human being too. You are making wrongful assumptions that he is habitually or regularly practising sin. If that were truely the case, this ministry wouldn't be there right now. I believe this guy is sincere. I wouldn't stand up for Benny Hinn however, and dont know about Rod Parsley.

 

Obviously Swaggart can't stop seeing hookers and cheating onhis wife. Surely someone with the annointing would have the help of the Holy SPirit to defeat this problem.

 

He is not into that now. I've read his commentaries, even his up to date ones, and believe me, he is not soft on anything. If you have a pet sin, or a secret sin that is practised habitually, you going straight to hell regardless of your profession. How could someone write something like that on a commentary and be comfortable doing that. No, he slipped, but he's alright now.

 

Anyway - I dont go to his church in Louisiana anyway so it is too far, so I dont know him that well personally.

 

Both! I don't think either one is a particular sin, thoguh. But I control my lust and I doubt because I'm not stupid. I was taught how to read critically and I use that tool all the time. I don't even agree with the concept of sin in the first place.

 

Of course you do, that is why you are angry with liars, cheats, because they are sinning, right?

 

Fishermen aren't liars and cheats by definition.

 

But they aren't exactly high-status either.

 

I use the same tools that lead me to the conclusion that there is no god to assess the value of the information I see in the media. The Hinn programs on NBC were well done and I also watch his own program. I saw Swaggart pick up a hooker on film, and saw him weep when apologizing the first time. I really don't think that the media is lying.

 

The media is not saying Jimmy Swaggart is going with hookers now.

 

And no, I don't know who owns the media. Jews, maybe?

 

The devil does. I think it owns Fox and possibly the others too.

 

Well, then I guess I am worse than Swaggart, then, because I have blashphemed against the Holy SPirit on numerous occaisions. I am sure I will again. If God wants to send me to Hell for a thought crime but let Swaggart, Hinn, Tilton etc. get away with stealing and lying in His name, I don't want to go to Heaven and hang out with Him anyway. His values are totally screwed up.

 

Obviously you have not Blasphemed against the Spirit, or you wouldn't be here. An unforgivable sin would mean the death penalty.

 

My mother knows a few people who resisted the word of the Lord and died shortly after. My mother told them about Christ, and they scoffed at it saying they wanted to party it up, and put Christ in the back-burner. They got in terrible car accidents, or other mishaps (i.e. "Final Destination'" movie material) and they immediately went to Judgement.

 

I have suffered virtual financial ruin for resisting the word of the Lord myself, as I'm sure you are familiar with the account. So to be sure, you probably have not done it.

 

My writings or posts are mainly 'in the flesh' as opposed to being 'of the Spirit' so it is unlikely that there would be any reprocussions from this end.

 

What on earth makes you think you Blasphemed agaisnt the Holy Spirit anyway? You said you never heard from God. When you hear from God, and despise Him, then you are on danger ground. You will know when you hear from God.

 

No, He doesn't. Your whole religion is based on the fact that God holds a grudge against humanity becaus ONE MAN ate something he wasn't supposed to.

 

If God really held a grudge, then He wouldn't have sent Jesus, He'd just wipe out the human race one time.

 

God did wipe out a angelic-human hybrid race through (X-Files theology if you want to call it that). Account in Genesis 6-7 suggests that Angels and attractive girls had sex producing a hybrid race that had to be wiped out by a flood. Noah and his family contained the pure human genes and weren't genetically contaminated and were thus saved.

 

 

I doubt it. But I am sure they will say they do. And they also use the money for hookers, private jets, expensive hotels, watches, and homes.

 

Just be careful your opinions are based on fact, and the preponderence of evidence, not on attitudes you may have picked up by the media. It's easy to have an attitude and go on 'witch-hunt' mode. But it is difficult to prove everything.

 

There is a difference between being less than perfect and being a criminal.

 

People who do criminal things go to jail. These people are in the public. Don't you think, if they really did something criminal, they would be prosecuted and in jail?

 

THe way the text reads it is suggested that both are for Joseph.

 

I know that. So, here is another explanation, that Joseph is the son-in-law, as opposed to son in Mary's geneology. The omission of 'in-law' may be something dealing with 16th century English language, or perhaps some cultural thing back then. However, it is common knowledge, and you can look up in any search engine about this (which incidentally I did), and it would tell you that this is so, and go into more further detail that I can.

[Admiral Thrawn]

You are calling God a person here. Wow' date=' I never cease to be amazed by the blaphemy put forward by self-proclaimed believers. [/quote']

 

God is actually three personalities: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, and these three are one. God is a person whether you like it or not, and relates to people as persons.

 

He necessarily knows what I will be doing. So from the point of God I cannot have free will - if I and others where to have it, it is impossible to foreknow what is going to happen.

 

Inverting that arguement to the past. You know the past. So since you have past-knowledge, that would mean you never had free-will, right?

What is the difference between past or future knowledge, as it is just knowledge? Nothing in the present can change the past. Nothing in the present can change a future that is black-boxed with you. So, there is free-will.

 

But that does not mean God grants me the possibility to change the future. Because it is already known what will happen - we simply have the illusion that we get a possibility to make changes.

 

God sometimes prophecises to people. God wants the best possible future for everyone. The road that seems right to man though, leads to death and destruction. So, in a sence, the Bible gives insights into the future for most people concerning the future.

 

Now, I am perfectly aware that people sometimes need illusions to believe in. Some illusions are more sensible than others.

 

That's a double-edged sword. We can both say 'you are the one with the illusion', so that is stupid.

 

Even more. My "actions and decisions" are known beforehand by God. Otherwise he would not have foreknowledge. Is that so hard to comprehend? If I were to punch a kid in its face, it would be idiotic to say that God only knows what the consequences are of that act, but not know of the act itself. It also makes no sense at all to claim something like that.

 

From your perspective, you have free-will. However, since you are not God, and as you said, that would be blasphemous to suggest that, then you have free-will because you are in a black-box about your own immediate and distant future.

 

Nonsense. You are speaking for God again - and also forgetting about the prophecy itself.

 

What prophecy? My faith is based on the Bible, and my assertations are based on the Bible.

 

It is already known by God whether or not I will convert. I do not know whether or not I will convert, even if I had strong desires.

 

Proclaiming yourself to be a Christian is not a way to heaven. And if it is, I will take the liberty to proclaim that the majority of Christians are charlatans. And yes, God already knows what you will answer, and therefore whether or not I will proclaim this.

 

Again, I base my authority on the word of God, and yours is based presumably on extra-biblical materials.

 

Only God knows. And only God knows when I die. To proclaim otherwise, is blasphemy. On which you already have a more than indecent score.

 

Your so called 'blasphemy' is only a smokesceen to justify being scripturally ignorant and spiritually apathetic, to which there is no justification.

[Bogun]

You are making a judgement. Jimmy Swaggart may have slipped before, and whether he went to a prostitute or not and went all the way is something that is contested to this day. The fact is, his ministry is on tract, and he is not into that now.

Admiral I have no idea who swaggert is, but I've heard of benny hinn (they put his tv show on at 3 am in the morning ). But if what Moai is saying is true, then why keep sticking up for the guy?? Some of the religious leaders I respect have had wild lives (eg serious drugs) before they focused on a spiritual practice, but once they were devoting their lives to it, they gave up all the things they were doing before. Not because they had to but because they wanted to give it up. If this swaggert is fooling around with prostitutes, while he's married, and after he's been preaching then I would have no respect for him, and deem everything that comes out of his mouth as tainted. If he's doing those things after he has supposedly found god then clearly he's full of crap and no where near god. Was mary still a prostitute after she met jesus? From what I recall, no.

 

But they aren't exactly high-status either.

Please stop bashing the fishermen admiral. Its just a job and doesnt define a person. I'm sure there are plenty of decent and honest fishermen. In my view that would make them "high status". Rather than a famous lawyer or doctor or politician that is a total a**hole.

[d'Arthez]

God is actually three personalities: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, and these three are one. God is a person whether you like it or not, and relates to people as persons.

But not just a person. As you made it out in your argument - and that is the blasphemy.

 

Inverting that arguement to the past. You know the past. So since you have past-knowledge, that would mean you never had free-will, right?

No. You are making a turn in time that is invalid. But nonetheless, if we look at the past, we cannot deny that the idea of free-will is but an illusion. Otherwise we would not have been here. Regardless of the fact whether or not we know the past, we never had free will in the first place. So the whole whining of "I wish I had done this instead of that" is just that. But at the time itself, the person could not have behaved otherwise.

 

What is the difference between past or future knowledge, as it is just knowledge?

It is not just knowledge. Knowledge does not exist as an abstraction.

And to deny the difference between past and future, if you are interested in that, has of course serious consequences. What is the difference between throwing stones to kill wild-life and using rifles to kill wild-life?

 

Nothing in the present can change the past. Nothing in the present can change a future that is black-boxed with you. So, there is free-will.

Not. Did they forget about logic classes when you were in school? If it is black-boxed, there is no free-will. A light switch does not have the power of will to become a microwave oven. For that it is not what it is (black-)boxed to do. It can only switch lights.

 

God sometimes prophecises to people. God wants the best possible future for everyone. The road that seems right to man though, leads to death and destruction. So, in a sence, the Bible gives insights into the future for most people concerning the future.

You still have not solved the issue of the passive and active spectator. You can come up with a million reasons that it is otherwise - but even in your own words (I do not even have to put up an argument) you are admitting to that. Good luck on solving the insolvable.

 

From your perspective, you have free-will.

No I do not have free will. It is merely an illusion - just as the whole concept of free-will is a modern invention, (and not attributable to KJV, for the recorD). Or do you believe that illusions like free will are true, and serve a function? That the illusion of free will is what it takes?

But again, sometimes people are fond of illusions. Portray illusions to be true.

 

then you have free-will because you are in a black-box about your own immediate and distant future.

Thus no free will. If a future is known by anyone (including mere mortals), there cannot be freedom. It is as simple as that.

 

What prophecy? My faith is based on the Bible, and my assertations are based on the Bible.

Second coming of Christ? Or is that even not part of the standard beliefs of Christians anymore. Makes perfect sense though.

 

Again, I base my authority on the word of God, and yours is based presumably on extra-biblical materials.

You should become a comedian.

 

Your so called 'blasphemy' is only a smokesceen to justify being scripturally ignorant and spiritually apathetic, to which there is no justification.

Speaking for God again? If I received a nickle for every transgression of scripture you committed (which is of course perfectly reasonable to you, which proves exactly nothing), I could be making a trip around the world by now.

[Admiral Thrawn]

But not just a person. As you made it out in your argument - and that is the blasphemy.

 

I never said God was only just a person, but you know what, if you are going to go there and make cheap-shots like that, I respectully withdraw from this discussion. Besides I think allot of what you are raising is garbage. Sorry.

 

This is not worth it.

 

The Bible says: (Prov 14:7) Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceiveth not in him the lips of knowledge.

 

Later.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Admiral I have no idea who swaggert is, but I've heard of benny hinn (they put his tv show on at 3 am in the morning ). But if what Moai is saying is true, then why keep sticking up for the guy??

 

Because I think he has changed and was over that a long time ago. He still has spiritual authority. One or two glitches in his life that he repented over and was fortiven by God, is not going to sink his ministry.

 

The fact of the matter is, his ministry is still there, he is helping people, saving souls and delivering people from destructive bondages and habits through the power of his annointed preaching by the Holy Spirit.

 

I have plenty of ancedontal evidence to show how his ministry is positively impacting lives. It's like saying, an ambulence worker, that saves people from dying, went with a prostitute using his paycheque, and he is sorry for doing that and continues doing his work and this only like happened once or twice in his life, somehow, that would not resonate as severely, would it?

 

Just because someone fell into sin at one point doesn't mean anything. Jimmy Swaggart is against prostitution, and will not encourage anyone to go with a prostitute. He'll teach people that they will go to hell if they use prostitutes habitually, and even once in your life is bad enough as it is, as the Bible says - NOT ONCE should that route even be done.

 

 

Some of the religious leaders I respect have had wild lives (eg serious drugs) before they focused on a spiritual practice, but once they were devoting their lives to it, they gave up all the things they were doing before. Not because they had to but because they wanted to give it up.

 

You never heard of the term 'Backsliding', or people going back into the former things they were into before. It happens. This is spiritual warfare we are talking about. There are no breaks or off-guard moments.

 

Rumour has it, and I'm not sure if it is true, but there was a devil-worship club near his church, and they were busy placing lust-incantation spells on Jimmy Swaggart. Perhaps the people in the church slacked of prayers at that time, or something went wrong, for this to have happened.

 

All I can say, is the spirit of lust, is not a spirit to play around with - it is one of the worst vulnerabilitieis I have myself as a yonge guy who never had sex with anyone before. I feel horney sometimes so I know.

 

If this swaggert is fooling around with prostitutes, while he's married, and after he's been preaching then I would have no respect for him, and deem everything that comes out of his mouth as tainted. If he's doing those things after he has supposedly found god then clearly he's full of crap and no where near god. Was mary still a prostitute after she met jesus? From what I recall, no.

 

No, but Mary could have been tempted at a later time to go back into prostitution. Just because you may be 'saved', be filled, or heck, even Baptised with the Holy Spirit, will not make you invulnerable to temptations of pornography, prostitution, or whatever...temptations will continue, and if the enemy finds a weak area to exploit - it will, because it is a war for the keeps.

 

I'm standing up for Jimmy Swaggart because I think he is sincere, and is not into this stuff, he fell into sin some time ago, and now that is over, dead, if he starts doing it again, well, then there is going to be a problem. HOw long ago did this happen, like fifteen years ago or something -- long time ago.

 

Please stop bashing the fishermen admiral. Its just a job and doesnt define a person. I'm sure there are plenty of decent and honest fishermen. In my view that would make them "high status". Rather than a famous lawyer or doctor or politician that is a total a**hole.

 

I was merely making a point that God chooses people who may not be approved by men. Despite the fact that the world and even most if not ALL Christian churches hate Jimmy Swaggart, and think he is a big embarassment for Christianity as a whole and a big black eye for Christianity all over the world - God can and still is using Jimmy Swaggart in a mighty way.

 

I have read published testimony upon testimony of people who have benefited from hearing his ministry on television, and you can see, he's out to make a positive change in this world.

[a4a]

No, you are in a state of denial and state of delusion. You need God in your life. You need to eat of the bread of life, and drink of the blood of everlasting life.

 

 

That is your opinion just as mine was that you need professional help.

 

I suppose I also need some magic dust so my reindeer will fly?

This is exactly why I am losing my tolerance with religion and those that blindly (in my opinion) follow such idiotic myths...and think that they have the right to continue to shove their unwanted ludicrous beliefs at me.

 

BTW: I eat the bread of Sara Lee and I would not consume blood as I am a vegetarian.... and certainly not a cannibal......

 

a4a

[Admiral Thrawn]

That is your opinion just as mine was that you need professional help.

 

I suppose I also need some magic dust so my reindeer will fly?

This is exactly why I am losing my tolerance with religion and those that blindly (in my opinion) follow such idiotic myths...and think that they have the right to continue to shove their unwanted ludicrous beliefs at me.

 

BTW: I eat the bread of Sara Lee and I would not consume blood as I am a vegetarian.... and certainly not a cannibal......

 

a4a

 

Gee, I would like to reply to your posts, but the Bible says,

 

Proverbs 14:7 "Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceiveth not hin him the lips of knowledge"

 

...so I must be running. Bye!

[Moai]

You are making a judgement. Jimmy Swaggart may have slipped before, and whether he went to a prostitute or not and went all the way is something that is contested to this day. The fact is, his ministry is on tract, and he is not into that now.

 

Yes, I am making a judgement. So what? First off, I am not a believer so any command from Jesus or any other character in your religion means zilch to me. Second, people make judgements all the time. Judging is not a nad thing. There is a big difference between me judging someone as inferior to me (which is what the "judge not" passage is about) and judging someone to be a criminal and treating them as such. If someone is a murderer, I would be an idiot not to judge them accordingly. Same thing for a whoremonger. And you have no idea that he is not into that now. He just hasn't been caught again. He already cried his eyes out and begged forgiveness from Jesus and his flock, and then went out and did it AGAIN.

 

Then I have a better world then you do, because mine would be the same as yours, plus an overlapping parallel dimension that is in synch with the pysical world or that influences real-world events behind the scenes and vice-versa.

 

No, that world would be worse. It would be impossible to know what was going in in any given moment, what anything means, or what my place in the world actually is.

 

These two worlds are known as 'the natural world' and the 'spiritual world', so belief in the latter does not negate the former. However, your belief system would be more limited, and having one more is better than having one less.

 

There is enough underlying evidence that would lend credence to a parallel dimension.

 

Not even. There is no "spiritual world". That is a silly superstition. I also don't think you understand exactly what a parallel dimension is. If there is a spiritual component that effects the matural world by definition it is in THIS dimension. BUt there isn't, however much you want there to be.

 

The fact is, there is no a rational explanation for everything, and even you know that.

 

Sure there is. There are phenomenon we don't currently have an explanation for, but that doesn't mean we won't or there isn't one.

 

That is your opinion of them, as brainwashed by the media. The fact of the matter, is Jimmy Swaggart slipped once or even twice in his life as you suggest, then so be it. He is also a human being too. You are making wrongful assumptions that he is habitually or regularly practising sin. If that were truely the case, this ministry wouldn't be there right now. I believe this guy is sincere. I wouldn't stand up for Benny Hinn however, and dont know about Rod Parsley.

 

Interesting that your best defense against my accusations is to call me brainwashed, when in point of fact I think for myself way more than you do. You can't seem to acknowledge anything that doesn't come from the Bible first. 96% of this country believe in God. It stands to reason that the people investigating Swaggart and his fellow liars and cheats believe in god themselves.

 

By definition Swaggart is regularly sinning, as he isn't perfect and never will be. Just like you, just like me--according to your mythos.

 

[qutoe]He is not into that now. I've read his commentaries, even his up to date ones, and believe me, he is not soft on anything. If you have a pet sin, or a secret sin that is practised habitually, you going straight to hell regardless of your profession. How could someone write something like that on a commentary and be comfortable doing that. No, he slipped, but he's alright now.

 

Because he probably doesn't believe anything he preaches, he is just doing it to get more money from suckers. And the guy is a hypocrite, so he'll say anything.

 

Anyway - I dont go to his church in Louisiana anyway so it is too far, so I dont know him that well personally.

 

I don't go to church at all. I didn't know John Wayne Gacy either, but I know he was a murdering pedophile. I don't know Swaggart either, but I have seen his program and his "apology" and his repeat offense and I know he is a liar. I wouldn't leave him alone in my house for a second, and I would never hang out with him.

 

Of course you do, that is why you are angry with liars, cheats, because they are sinning, right?

 

No, it is because what they are doing is wrong. "Sin" means doing something against God's wishes, like thinking my own thoughts or "coveting" or whatever. Just because most crimes are also sins it doesn't follow that I agree with that definition.

 

But they aren't exactly high-status either.

 

This is exactly the kind of judgement Jesus was talking about NOT making. There is honor in all work. I don't look down on someone because of their chosen profession, or their particular lot in life. All people have value, regardless of economic status, looks, where they live, or whatever. It is obvious that you do not agree.

 

I do judge people based on their actions, as does everyone. If someone steals from me or sleeps with my girlfriend I am not going to hang out with them, and will happily offer my opinion of them at any opportunity.

 

The media is not saying Jimmy Swaggart is going with hookers now.

 

That doesn't mean he is out there doing just that. He is still fleecing suckers daily, though.

 

The devil does. I think it owns Fox and possibly the others too.

 

I am sure the devil owns everything that you don't like. Great.

 

Obviously you have not Blasphemed against the Spirit, or you wouldn't be here. An unforgivable sin would mean the death penalty.

 

Yes, I have. Are you saying that God would have struck me dead had I done that? Why didn't he, then? I will not repeat what I said here for fear of offending you, but I have before and I am RIGHT NOW blaspheming against the Holy Spirit--firstly because I don't believe there is one, and second because I have said "F the Holy SPirit" and worse. And still here, I feel great, and everything is fine. Go figure.

 

My mother knows a few people who resisted the word of the Lord and died shortly after. My mother told them about Christ, and they scoffed at it saying they wanted to party it up, and put Christ in the back-burner. They got in terrible car accidents, or other mishaps (i.e. "Final Destination'" movie material) and they immediately went to Judgement.

 

Coincidental. I have burned Bible before, I have said the most blasphemous things I coud think of--name it. I am resisting the Word of God right now, and do whenever I have to crack open that stupid book called the Bible to refer to it. And I am right as rain.

 

I have suffered virtual financial ruin for resisting the word of the Lord myself, as I'm sure you are familiar with the account. So to be sure, you probably have not done it.

 

Oh, I have.

 

My writings or posts are mainly 'in the flesh' as opposed to being 'of the Spirit' so it is unlikely that there would be any reprocussions from this end.

 

What on earth makes you think you Blasphemed agaisnt the Holy Spirit anyway? You said you never heard from God. When you hear from God, and despise Him, then you are on danger ground. You will know when you hear from God.

 

I can't hear from what doesn't exist. ANd I had a conversion experience when younger. I was "born again" in 1981, and it obviously didn't take.

 

If God really held a grudge, then He wouldn't have sent Jesus, He'd just wipe out the human race one time.

 

According to your own book he did. How did that go, by the way?

 

God did wipe out a angelic-human hybrid race through (X-Files theology if you want to call it that). Account in Genesis 6-7 suggests that Angels and attractive girls had sex producing a hybrid race that had to be wiped out by a flood. Noah and his family contained the pure human genes and weren't genetically contaminated and were thus saved.

 

Man, your religion is so weird! Hybrid angel/humans????

 

Just be careful your opinions are based on fact, and the preponderence of evidence, not on attitudes you may have picked up by the media. It's easy to have an attitude and go on 'witch-hunt' mode. But it is difficult to prove everything.

 

Yes, proof is difficult. Swaggart disgraced himself once, and will again I've no doubt. He erecently had to apologize for saying he'd like to kill gays. Great guy.

 

People who do criminal things go to jail. These people are in the public. Don't you think, if they really did something criminal, they would be prosecuted and in jail?

 

Yep. Sadly, it isn't totally illegal to fleece suckers using religion.

 

I know that. So, here is another explanation, that Joseph is the son-in-law, as opposed to son in Mary's geneology. The omission of 'in-law' may be something dealing with 16th century English language, or perhaps some cultural thing back then. However, it is common knowledge, and you can look up in any search engine about this (which incidentally I did), and it would tell you that this is so, and go into more further detail that I can.

 

I have looked at it extensively myself.

[Toni_no12002]

No one is foolish because of what they believe in.No one knows god is real.I dont believe in god that doesnt make me foolish i just believe that my family and friends that are here now need more attention and love than a god im not sure exists.

 

People can go on and on about what it says in the bible.How we should act and what we should do.You dont know that this is all the truth.

 

If someone has some concrete evidence that god exists then put it forward.

 

Oh yes if god is real say is he the god of the universe?Or just earth?There is galaxies everywhere maybe theres life on them does he own them too?

 

 

If god loved us unconditionally then it wouldnt matter wether we comitted sin or not.To me if god is real it sounds like where experiments to see what we'll do.

[Admiral Thrawn]

And you have no idea that he is not into that now. He just hasn't been caught again. He already cried his eyes out and begged forgiveness from Jesus and his flock, and then went out and did it AGAIN.

 

And, equally you have no idea that he is, or proof that he is.

 

No, that world would be worse. It would be impossible to know what was going in in any given moment, what anything means, or what my place in the world actually is.

 

The fact is, pretending a parallel reality doesn't exist isn't going to help you know anything about it.

 

Not even. There is no "spiritual world". That is a silly superstition. I also don't think you understand exactly what a parallel dimension is. If there is a spiritual component that effects the matural world by definition it is in THIS dimension. BUt there isn't, however much you want there to be.

 

This dimension talk was an abstract way of trying to explain a reality that you do not understand. What is silly is to dismiss something that you dont know about. Without veering this too much into an occult bend, there is enough evidence out there to show that there is more out there then what you see. You have haunted houses, ghosts, UFO's, after-life experiences, people who hav experienced God, God answering prayers, and a whole pleuthora of other evidence to show that there is more than meets the eye. You have para- science disciplines that even go into that. I would hardly say that is superstition.

 

You have never been in a real haunted house before?

 

 

Sure there is. There are phenomenon we don't currently have an explanation for, but that doesn't mean we won't or there isn't one.

 

What phenomenon?

 

Interesting that your best defense against my accusations is to call me brainwashed, when in point of fact I think for myself way more than you do. You can't seem to acknowledge anything that doesn't come from the Bible first. 96% of this country believe in God. It stands to reason that the people investigating Swaggart and his fellow liars and cheats believe in god themselves.

 

No. They have a negative bias against Evangelists. They will ignore, for example, the orphanages and schools his ministry built in Haity, or the world he had done to help people in Third World country, and focus all their attention to dig up any dirt they can.

 

By definition Swaggart is regularly sinning, as he isn't perfect and never will be. Just like you, just like me--according to your mythos.

 

Just because someone slipped once or twice doesn't mean they are a regular sinner. Suppose you did something stupid ten years ago, would you like to be branded for the rest of your life for it? You would think that would be fair?

 

 

I do judge people based on their actions, as does everyone. If someone steals from me or sleeps with my girlfriend I am not going to hang out with them, and will happily offer my opinion of them at any opportunity.

 

Jesus teaches about forgiving people who take advantage of you and praying for them.

 

That doesn't mean he is out there doing just that. He is still fleecing suckers daily, though.

 

You have no proof of that. Have you checked the bank accounts? You are someone who believes in scientific proof - dont you think it is just a tad bit presumptious to be making assertions without reliable proof?

 

I am sure the devil owns everything that you don't like. Great.

 

Like the world-system.

 

Yes, I have. Are you saying that God would have struck me dead had I done that? Why didn't he, then?

 

The reason is, you did not commit the unforgivable sin.

 

I will not repeat what I said here for fear of offending you, but I have before and I am RIGHT NOW blaspheming against the Holy Spirit--firstly because I don't believe there is one, and second because I have said "F the Holy SPirit" and worse. And still here, I feel great, and everything is fine. Go figure.

 

Well, if you are still alive (hopefully you are not pressing your luck), then it means you have not committed the sin, or God is just looking at you like some retarded child and is not taking you seriously enough to strike you. Which I guess would be more insulting to you then actually being stricken down. Imagine, not be taken seriously? Suppose He is just saying, 'Look at what Moai is doing with his free-will, is that the best he can do?'

 

Coincidental. I have burned Bible before, I have said the most blasphemous things I coud think of--name it. I am resisting the Word of God right now, and do whenever I have to crack open that stupid book called the Bible to refer to it. And I am right as rain.

 

Burning a Bible is a sin, but still a forgivable one, so the opportunity to repent and seek forgiveness still exists.

 

Look, I guess, as you suggested, the Lord really may not have spoken to you clearly, because if He did, and then you despised the word of the Lord, then, you would be in trouble. Burning the Bible, and saying those things sounds too much like a 'flesh' or 'child' response and probably was not taken seriously.

 

 

I can't hear from what doesn't exist. ANd I had a conversion experience when younger. I was "born again" in 1981, and it obviously didn't take.

 

In your mind God doesn't exist, and that is only in your mind. But reality is different than what is in your own mind you know. The fact you are still here now, attests for the fact that God will speak to you at some point in the future.

 

Like people of old who thought the earth was flat, and it would be superstitious to believe it was round, so you have denied by ignorance the existance of the spirit world, of God, despite the preponderonce of evidence that the supernatural exists. Like I said, like you, I too believe in the natural world, and pretty much everything else you believe as it pertains to the natural world. But my faith, goes beyond the natural, while your faith is stuck there. Discounting something you can not prove doesn't exist is futile.

 

Man, your religion is so weird! Hybrid angel/humans????

 

Got a problem with that? The fact is, the human race was almost genetically wiped out and God saved it with a flood. That was to preserve the line of the Messiah. Anyway, most Christians aren't into that 'type' of theology so it doesn't represent what most churches are going to likely focus on or believe.

[Admiral Thrawn]

No one is foolish because of what they believe in.No one knows god is real.I dont believe in god that doesnt make me foolish i just believe that my family and friends that are here now need more attention and love than a god im not sure exists.

 

The Bible says any belief that there is no God is foolish.

 

People can go on and on about what it says in the bible.How we should act and what we should do.You dont know that this is all the truth.

 

Sure I do. It is the only true book that is around spiritually.

 

If someone has some concrete evidence that god exists then put it forward.

 

If someone has concrete evidence that God does not exist then put it forward. Stalemate.

 

Oh yes if god is real say is he the god of the universe?Or just earth?There is galaxies everywhere maybe theres life on them does he own them too?

 

Everything that exists, visible and invisible. Although you cant see invisible things.

 

If god loved us unconditionally then it wouldnt matter wether we comitted sin or not.To me if god is real it sounds like where experiments to see what we'll do.

 

But, God is also just. A Just God sees to an orderly administration of the Universe and Justice. But, since God is also unconditional love, He will forgive your sins if you ask Him to are sincere about it.

[wizdom]

D AR something: I couldn't even finish reading your post it was so full of cow dun. You call that logical thinking. Just because God knows that you will blasphemy his Holy Spirit( which by the way is the only unforgivable sin) does not mean that you are a puppet on a string. God desires no one to go to hell, for it was not made for us. It was made for satan. Think about it God created satan as the number one angle in charge but he was proud and wanted to be God so he rebelled against God and was thrown out of heaven.

Now if he can walk and talk with God and see all his Glory and still rebel you know it has to be because he had free will. He knew he would not win yet he battled him anyway. He still knows he will not win but he is out with a vengance seeking whom he may devour. He's got half of you with devoured just from unbelief alone. He keeps you stuck on the explainable and the scientific proof that you can't get passed and see that we are merely passing through this life. Have you stop to think about where we as humans come up with even the names we made up for our human body how do we know what they are really called because some man said they are. I know God is real he is in the wind, the rain, the thunder the only way we know any scientific information is because God gave you brain the intelligence it has to be creative and experiment to come to conclusions. Who's to say that those conclusions are true.

Secondly Satan is the ruler of this world ( meaning this planet earth) that’s why when Jesus was led by the Spirit to be tempted in the wilderness he took Jesus up on the mountain and in a instant showed him all the kingdoms of the world. And said to him “I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it is mine to give. Satan became the ruler of this world when Adam and Eve fell into temptation just like Satan did when he was living in paradise.

 

I just finished reading your post below and honestly you make me laugh. You twist peoples words around to say somthing that they don't even mean. Let's get one thing clear there is no level in sins or wrong doings or moral judgments as you may want to call it. All sins are created equal to God. He doesn't care if you steal a piece of candy or murder someone. To us a humans we see murder as the inhuman thing to do but to God it all grieves his Spirit because with every sin your hurting someone.

 

I think it's sad that you unbelievers take God for a sucker. You should not mock the Lord Our God for vengence will be his. Why because he won't wipe out everyone who sins. If he did that there would be noone left on the earth.

And as far as noah and the flood I know that some angels had sex with humans and that resulted in giants, but the reason why he wiped out the earth was there was no one righteouse except noah and his family everyone was ingrossed in there sin and laughed at noah b/c he was building the ark but you best believe that when that rain came pouring down they were begging noah to open that ark door to be let in. A fool says in there heart there is no God. I have to go on my lunch break but i will comment on the rest later.

[Admiral Thrawn]

I think it's sad that you unbelievers take God for a sucker. You should not mock the Lord Our God for vengence will be his. Why because he won't wipe out everyone who sins. If he did that there would be noone left on the earth.

 

But if someone commits an 'unforgivable' or 'unpardonable' sin, then wouldn't they die and go straight to hell, because that particular sin can not be atoned or accounted for (i.e. Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit).

 

However, I'm being led to believe now, that this usually occurs when the annointing is VERY, very strong. God may be omnipresent, but the 'annointing' itself seems to vary in concentrations. For example, God may be omnipresent, but an annointing at a movie theatre, or rock concert, is different from a church service, or place where God is worshipped in truth and spirit and miracles are happening.

 

That is why I think, if someone despises the word of God presented by someone who has a strong annointing, or in the environment of a strong annointing, than that is like a death-warrant. The person may not last a week after that. What do you think?

 

I've heard people die who have despised the word of Christ and rejected His offer of salvation to live their own lives, shortly after the alter call or presentation of the Gospel. I think this is what Blasphemy of the Spirit is, when the Spirit is calling someone to get saved, and they deliberately strive against it and flaunt it, then that has to be what it is defiend as. What do you think?

 

And as far as noah and the flood I know that some angels had sex with humans and that resulted in giants, but the reason why he wiped out the earth was there was no one righteouse except noah and his family everyone was ingrossed in there sin and laughed at noah b/c he was building the ark but you best believe that when that rain came pouring down they were begging noah to open that ark door to be let in.

 

But the Giants in the land were not righteous, they were all wicked, every one of them. They had devil seed so they were terrible to be sure. They all had to be destroyed.

 

A fool says in there heart there is no God. I have to go on my lunch break but i will comment on the rest later.

 

That is what the Bible says. Preach it brother!

[d'Arthez]

D AR something: I couldn't even finish reading your post it was so full of cow dun. You call that logical thinking.

 

If God knows beforehand what I will do, the whole idea of free-will is a mere figment of my imagination at best. An illusion is not true. Wow, very hard to understand.

Have you received basic calculus? if 2x = 4 it is not hard to come up with the idea that x is not 27. And no matter how hard you try, 27 will never fit.

 

Just because God knows that you will blasphemy his Holy Spirit( which by the way is the only unforgivable sin) does not mean that you are a puppet on a string.

Another ring announcer for God. I am a puppet on a string. Just as you are. But you do not understand that, for your knowledge is limited. You can't blame me for your lack of knowledge.

 

God desires no one to go to hell, for it was not made for us.

Speaking for God again?

 

Now if he can walk and talk with God and see all his Glory and still rebel you know it has to be because he had free will.

Again, free will is an illusion, caused by the limits most humans suffer from in thought. Just as the movement of the planets appear to be random, instead of ecliptical. That is simply caused by the point of view we have, when we are on earth. If you look at it from the center of the solar system, the whole randomness disappears.

 

He keeps you stuck on the explainable and the scientific proof that you can't get passed and see that we are merely passing through this life.

Get passed? I am sorry, but I have a hard time making out what you are trying to convey here.

 

I know God is real he is in the wind, the rain, the thunder the only way we know any scientific information is because God gave you brain the intelligence it has to be creative and experiment to come to conclusions. Who's to say that those conclusions are true.

And who is to say that your conclusions are true? If you may have faith in God, I may have faith in science. And an aunt of yours may even believe that Mr. Jones is the real representative of Christ on earth. Does not make the other explanations necessarily evil, wicked, or whatever. And if it does, that is simply a human flaw, which should not be attributed to God, Science, or Mr. Jones.

 

To quote another heathen: "He who possesses art and science has religion; he who does not possess them, needs religion. "

 

I just finished reading your post below and honestly you make me laugh.

You make me cry. That is a worse offense, IMO.

 

You twist peoples words around to say somthing that they don't even mean.

Um, Admiral started purposely to misinterpret even the simplest of messages from me and Moai. And if you cannot even be bothered to solve the most impossible attributions to God, he has made, I do not even see a point in conceding that he is right (which he is not).

 

And if a person does not even dare to apply logic to his fraudulent teachings and beliefs, I cannot be blamed for his lack of application of logic. The same holds for you.

 

Let's get one thing clear there is no level in sins or wrong doings or moral judgments as you may want to call it.

There is. Because you assume the position of God. Last time I checked, no human being decided whether or not a fellow man goes to heaven or hell.

 

He doesn't care if you steal a piece of candy or murder someone. To us a humans we see murder as the inhuman thing to do but to God it all grieves his Spirit because with every sin your hurting someone.

Again, that is assuming you know what God feels and grieves for. Apparently, we should not even consider the Bible itself, for God did not have even any problem to consider such grievous acts, let alone act upon his apparent impulses (which theologically speaking are not understandable by man, anyway).

 

I think it's sad that you unbelievers take God for a sucker.

I do not take God for a sucker. I do take zealots for suckers. Big difference.

 

You should not mock the Lord Our God for vengence will be his. Why because he won't wipe out everyone who sins. If he did that there would be noone left on the earth.

Vengeance is already foreknown - as Admiral pointed out. So whether or not you give me a warning, it is futile. What remains is the mere illusion that I can shape whatever direction my life takes. But it is already known.

 

And as far as noah and the flood I know that some angels had sex with humans and that resulted in giants, but the reason why he wiped out the earth was there was no one righteouse except noah and his family everyone was ingrossed in there sin and laughed at noah b/c he was building the ark but you best believe that when that rain came pouring down they were begging noah to open that ark door to be let in.

So we are descendent of 7 people? Who are all family? How does that fare with the (apparently also existing) idea that inbreeding is bad? Never mind the whole genealogical issue if indeed only Adam and Eve were the first and only humans. Or is procreation solely an act of imagination?

[Admiral Thrawn]

Wizdom;

 

Proberbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him".

 

You've already made some great points to d'Arthez on your post, but I would caution you and remind you of this verse of scripture.

[d'Arthez]

Crying that x might be 3 in this equation 2x=4 does not ever going to make 3 a valid solution. To think otherwise, as Thrawn and wizdom do, is their right. Does not mean the 3 will ever be a valid answer to the equation, though.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Proberbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him".

 

The above proverb is very similar to Dr. Minor's theory regarding the very same issue. Perhaps Religion and Science have more in common than either one cares to admit:

 

You can’t argue with an addict. Arguing religion to one so addicted plays into the addictive game. Arguing about the Bible or tradition is like arguing with the alcoholic about whether whiskey or tequila is better for them. It’s useless and affirms the addiction.

 

http://www.fairnessproject.org/Religious_Addiction.html

 

http://www.philosophy-religion.org/criticism/toxicfaith.htm

 

http://www.philosophy-religion.org/criticism/addicted.htm

[Admiral Thrawn]

The above proverb is very similar to Dr. Minor's theory regarding the very same issue. Perhaps Religion and Science have more in common than either one cares to admit:

 

 

 

http://www.fairnessproject.org/Religious_Addiction.html

 

http://www.philosophy-religion.org/criticism/toxicfaith.htm

 

http://www.philosophy-religion.org/criticism/addicted.htm

 

You are very funny. There are two distinct factions on this thread. As you can see, Moose, Wizdom, Grace2005, Chris777 and myself hold one type of thought, and the rest, whether they are atheist, theist, agnostic, or whatever they believe in hold a different one and basically they are irreconcilable.

 

So, in a sence, you are right, we can argue about whether God is real or not, and on top of that, which 'version of God' is the correct one, until the cows come home.

 

At the end of the day, and in response to the purpose and spirit of this thread, there can be no definative answer that will satisfy her question and the creator of this thread simply has to choose whatever she wants to believe, or more importantly, who she wants to listen to. I have given my response, and other people have given theirs and think this thread is going to rest.