Religion - what do we think?

[girlinNYC]

Hope I have posted on the right forum. 

I grew up a Catholic and practice it to the extent of praying once a day and attending church on occasions like Easter and Christmas. I understand Catholicism is a very conservative religion and I'm not objecting to that. But as I've grown up, I'm in my mid 20's now, I want to remain in touch with my faith but I do have progressive beliefs like being a believer in abortion and a believer in same-sex couples' right to marriage as examples. Part of me thinks the Catholic Church are stuck in the dark ages, but part of me feels that part of being a 'good' Catholic is to follow what they preach otherwise I'm not being true to the religion. 

Is it possible to still be a good Catholic (or whatever religion you may be) while formulating your own beliefs? I would love to hear your thoughts, your experiences with religion and if your ideals align with yours or not. 

[basil67]

I believe that priests, ministers, preachers et al all teach their interpretation of God’s word and it’s up to the individual to sift through all the different messages and follow what is right in their heart.   

[major_merrick]

@girlinNYC I find that religion and faith are similar but separate.  Faith is a relationship with God.  Religion is human worship practices and morality standards.  So you can continue to have faith in God while working with your own personal beliefs.

I joined my husband's religion when we married - a sect of Christianity.  It has made my relationship and my married life possible.  But my personal and political views can vary somewhat from the rest of the people in our community.  Like you, I'm pro-choice.  If I found out I was going to have a baby with Downs Syndrome, I'd abort the first chance I got.  My husband doesn't really agree with that, so we don't discuss it.  Sometimes you just keep your views to yourself to get along with those around you.  When you've got more in common with your fellow believers and not so many differences, you leave the controversies alone until they actually come up in an important way. 

As I understand it, there are also doctrines which some believers consider "essential" and doctrines which a denomination will deem correct, but not essential for salvation.  For example, most Christian groups (idk about Catholics specifically) accept the idea that it is faith in Jesus' sacrifice that justifies you from sin and is the key to getting to heaven.  Works and morality standards are then part of "sanctification" which is an ongoing process.  So if you and your fellow believers agree on "justification" you've got unity on the essential things.  You can work out some differences on the "sanctification" part.

I would suggest reading the Bible on your own, and comparing the things you find there with the doctrines of the Catholic church and what your priest teaches.  See if your reading supports the views you hold or challenges them.  At the least, it is intellectually stimulating. 

[mark clemson]

16 hours ago, girlinNYC said:

 Part of me thinks the Catholic Church are stuck in the dark ages, but part of me feels that part of being a 'good' Catholic is to follow what they preach otherwise I'm not being true to the religion. 

Is it possible to still be a good Catholic (or whatever religion you may be) while formulating your own beliefs?

Most religious people are capable of using their own brains. The degree to which they do so seems to vary quite a bit.

https://www.newsweek.com/pope-franciss-remarks-evolution-are-not-controversial-among-roman-catholics-281115

 

[Justanaverageguy]

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Is it possible to still be a good Catholic (or whatever religion you may be) while formulating your own beliefs?

So I share a similar background. I would say this is a tricky situation based on my past experiences - essentially because once you have been exposed to the Christian teaching the way you personally are judged is different to a person who did not have this background. The teachings in Christianity and indeed most religions are a "higher calling". They are meant to seem difficult and challenging to achieve - because to be "perfect"  is an incredibly difficult and challenging thing to do. One might say its close to impossible. But yet the laws of God are immutable and constant. The idea that the laws are outdated - and "mankind knows better now" has been a constant theme throughout the history of Judo/Christian religion. They said the same thing 3000 years ago  Mankind is constantly trying to remove parts of the ethical and moral teaching we don't like or feel are necessary anymore ..... but sadly this isn't the way it works. 

The tricky part for you - about formulating your own ideas - is that a key part of the spiritual teaching in Christianity is that you will be judged according to the personal level of teaching and instruction your received.  Those who have no prior knowledge of Gods will or teachings - are judged leniently. Because they were not raised with spiritual teaching or influence and don't have a reasonable basis to understand what God wanted they aren't judged harshly when they break these laws. If however you are exposed to and taught from an early age the Christian teaching about Gods desire for human behavior - say your parents regularly took you to church as a child. You received bible teachings and instruction through school or the church. Received the sacraments etc.  You are as a result judged to a higher standard. Breaking the laws or supporting breaking the laws you have been taught is treated differently. 

You know - the whole faithful servant parable. That servant, who knew his lord's will, and didn't prepare, nor do what he instructed, will be beaten with many blows, but the one who didn't know his will, and did things worthy of punishment, will only be beaten with few. To everyone who has been given much - much will be required. And to the one who has been given more - much more will be demanded from them.

Similarly the watchman passages from Ezekiel explains the Role of Jesus and his teachings and how it effects how we as individuals are judged. 

Before I bring judgment against a land or people, I shall appoint a watchman - the Son of Man, who sees the judgment coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people. Then if anyone hears the warning but does not heed it - the judgement will comes and take their life. The blood will be on their own head. Since they heard the warning sound given by the watchman but they did not heed his warning or instruction. If they had heeded the warning, they would have saved themselves. But if the watchman sees the judgment coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people or if a person does not hear the warning - I will hold the watchman accountable for their deeds.’  Son of man, I have made you a watchman for my people; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me.  When I say to the sinful person, ‘You sinful person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways I will hold you accountable for their sin. But if you do warn the person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will be held accountable and punished for their sin.

 

In saying that the two items you have raised aren't straight forward. Does abortion count as killing a human ? When does life begin ? Do the circumstances of the pregnancy matter ? Difficult questions to answer. 

Regarding Homosexuality - scripture is clear that it is against Gods will for mankind. Not something to be encouraged. But it is also clear that we should not judge others. So most Christians take the path of not actively advocating or supporting Homosexuality - but also not judging, criticizing, persecuting others.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Justanaverageguy said:

Regarding Homosexuality - scripture is clear that it is against Gods will for mankind.

Not really. Jesus never mentions the topic.

[Ellener]

On 3/14/2020 at 5:18 AM, girlinNYC said:

Is it possible to still be a good Catholic (or whatever religion you may be) while formulating your own beliefs?

Yes. I think so, and that's what I do, I attend Unitarian Universalist Church and ( hopefully ) represent my Christian faith there.

 

[Justanaverageguy]

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Not really. Jesus never mentions the topic.

So Jesus teaching doesn't exist in a bubble - it includes the Judaic teachings which were a forerunner to his coming. He does specifically preach on the dangers and consequences of sexual immorality - which under Judaic teaching includes homosexuality. It includes a number of sexual activities such as adultery - sex with another persons husband/wife, group sex involving more then 2 people, rape - which doesn't have the same meaning as the word today. At the time Rape simply meant to have sex with a woman without intention to marry her. The forced sex we consider rape today was also of course forbidden. As was fornication with animals. There are a vast number of sexual behaviours considered "sexually immoral". Jesus didn't outline these explicitly - simply referring to them as "Sexual immorality" as they were already implicitly understood by Jews who he preached to. He did however add additional things not formerly understood as sexually immoral - such as divorce. Matthew 19.

His disciples who he specifically sent out to spread the teaching beyond Jews to the Gentiles - not familiar with Judaic teaching on sexual immorality - did explicitly lay out homosexuality as forbidden sexual practice. Just read some of Pauls teachings to gentiles on this. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[Ellener]

On 4/14/2020 at 12:00 AM, Justanaverageguy said:

sexual immorality

You seem to have given this a lot of thought. There's a lot better stuff in the Bible to look into and proselytise you know.

[major_merrick]

On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2020 at 11:48 PM, Ellener said:

Not really. Jesus never mentions the topic.

Ummm...no.  The whole Bible is God-breathed.  Basically, written by Jesus using people as a method.  The topic isn't mentioned in the Gospels in Jesus' words in red...but that doesn't mean Jesus did not address the topic.  What those Scriptures mean is what people debate.

[Justanaverageguy]

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You seem to have given this a lot of thought. There's a lot better stuff in the Bible to look into and proselytise you know.

Really and honestly not a topic I like to spend a lot of time on at all. I was trying to focus on a more generalized understanding of the consequences of having been given the correct teaching on what God desires - then consciously choosing to ignore it and to do your own thing anyway.  This is to me the more important thing to understand - because consequences for a person raised in the church and ignoring the teaching are vastly different to people never exposed to the teaching. I only mentioned it at all because it was one of the things specifically raised in the OP's question (I gave it 1 line - in a 30 line answer). You then focused on that 1 line.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Justanaverageguy

[salparadise]

There are liberal/progressive protestant denominations that are aligned with your beliefs, and most will encourage individualism as well. How important is it to you that you be thought of as a good Catholic despite such a fundamental divergence? It sounds like to me that you are ready to investigate religion from a much larger perspective. For example, Presbyterianism (USA) doesn't even believe in the whole judgement/shaming routine... If you're one of God's people, you're in. It's not by absolution or good works that you qualify. It does require belief in predestination, if you want to be logically consistent, but no one seems to fret over it. You should also read about Martin Luther and his 95 theses. Or perhaps find a book that provides a broad overview of world religions.  

[Justanaverageguy]

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Presbyterianism (USA) doesn't even believe in the whole judgement/shaming routine...If you're one of God's people, you're in. It's not by absolution or good works that you qualify. 

I believe this is the case (or at least is meant to be) with all Christian denominations. Isn't it ? I guess what I was saying above was that by being "in" as you put it. Being one of Gods people. You are held to a higher standard. I don't mean by the church or denomination (I don't consider these important). I mean by God. Ultimately thats all that matters. 

I think TD Jakes puts the concept best. "Whom the lord Loveth he chasteneth. Not whom he hateth. Whom the lord Loveth he chasteneth. That correction is not an announcement that you aren't Gods child - but in fact is a declaration and proof that you are Gods Child. The fact that you can't get away with things that other people can get away with. All of these other people around you are doing these things so often that it starts to seem normal ..... and then just when you get ready to do it there are consequences. And it doesn't seem fair and it doesn't seem right.  The distinction is - You belong to God.  

 

 

[Ellener]

Jesus: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength...Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.' 

There are two other Bible texts which inform my religious beliefs first and foremost, the Sermon on the Mount and Matthew 25.

I think it is possible to reconcile these ideas with later knowledge and with universal wisdoms.

I was baptised Catholic and my earliest church memories are from the Catholic faith, happy memories for me.

I know some very good people who are Catholics @girlinNYC but it would not be a faith for me until they acknowledge women priests. I used to say plus the child abuse scandal, and that was finally accepted and treated more appropriately. So I hold out hope that the Church can modernise. Until then, yes I think people must follow their own conscience as to how involved they will be, what they will accept as 'gospel'. 

 

[peaceminusone]

I dont belong to the same religion, that is being discussed in this forum. But since OP mentioned 'any religion' so I will give my input here.  I'll also refrain from mentioning any indepth or religion specific terms, if that or my opinions annoy/disturb someone, I apologize in advance. 

Like @major_merrick mentioned, faith and religion are two different concepts. 

I too think the same, that no matter which religion you belong to, your own relation with God is based on your faith. And no one can authorize or deduce how stable or good that connection is.  That 'judgement' is not for a human to make or impose over another human, it is for God to decide. So focus on the value of your faith and walk the guided path of your religion at your own pace. 

Unfortunately, in most religions, people do not research themselves and listen to whatever sermon is given in a particular religious place or whatever debate is made in a seminar/event. 

Once you begin learning through your own research, a lot of details open about religion that you probably never heard or had an idea of. 
In this fast life, we are a bit too dependent on what the Religious speaker preaches to us. When most Holy books, (no matter which religion they cover) are a direct message to the human following that specific religion. 

 

[Curious-Sam]

I think this is really hard for most Christians to answer. How to marry modern day thinking with traditional conservative moral values in the bible we believe are from God. The multitude of opinions on the thread shows that. Ultimately it comes down to what does this statement actually mean to different individuals.

On 4/18/2020 at 10:08 AM, Ellener said:

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Does loving your neighbor as yourself mean - Non judgement and accepting people for who they are ? Or does it mean trying to help / shepherd people away from wrong actions and towards following the teachings in the bible on what is right so they don't encounter negative circumstances ? I think  they come from the same place - of wanting whats best for their neighbor. Its just a different perspective on what will actually be best for people in the long term. Jesus seemed to somehow manage to paradoxically do both at the same time. Though how - I'm still not quite sure. It seemed merely being in his presence transformed people so I guess that's what we should encourage. To seek his presence.