Why Cheat?

[Hip Pocket]

6 hours ago, pepperbird said:

One thing they almost always are is a coward.

Or they have a lot of compassion for their spouse, or they have a lot of guilt, or they love their spouse as a really good friend but just don’t love them “that way”. Being hesitant to hurt a spouse doesn’t always mean they are cowards. 

[DKT3]

3 hours ago, Hip Pocket said:

Or they have a lot of compassion for their spouse, or they have a lot of guilt, or they love their spouse as a really good friend but just don’t love them “that way”. Being hesitant to hurt a spouse doesn’t always mean they are cowards. 

Yeah, I say cowardly.  At any point before they cross the line that could talk to thier spouse.  Love them as a good friend then stab them in the back? Who needs friends like that? I would prefer not too. Compassion? How? By cheating or lying about,  gaslighting or making a fool of your beloved friend who you care so much about. 

No, its pretty cowardly, totally self serving.  Hard to admit when you're the one who has cheated,  cheater usually justify and make themselves feel at ease during affairs, all you've mentioned is common cheater language 

[stillafool]

I agree DKT3, if they truly had compassion for their BS, best friend, they would sit them down and tell them the truth then ask for a divorce.  They would want their "best friend" to be happy also with someone else.  They would let them go and find their happiness.  Staying and cheating behind BS back while gas lighting them are the actions of a person  who only cares about themselves and are selfish to an extreme.

[pepperbird]

11 hours ago, Hip Pocket said:

Or they have a lot of compassion for their spouse, or they have a lot of guilt, or they love their spouse as a really good friend but just don’t love them “that way”. Being hesitant to hurt a spouse doesn’t always mean they are cowards. 

I find this line of reasoning to be, well, nonsensical.
He/she doesn't want to hurt their spouse, so they go and do the one thing that's pretty much guaranteed to hurt them, blow apart the family and result in a huge blow to their BS's mental/emotional health.
But they are cheating out of compassion? Riiiggghhhttttt......

Either they are completely emotionally bankrupt to not see ow that could happen ( that;s bad) or they are lying( also bad). At least be hoenst. they simply don't care if anyone else gets hurt.

[DKT3]

I personally believe that the most common reason people cheat is because they believe they can do so and not be caught.  I dont believe many (in thier minds) are making a choice between their partners and affair partners. I don't believe they have intentions to hurt their partners and in their own way may in fact love them.

Make no mistake,  it's pure selfishness and not in any way done for the benefit of anyone but themselves.  It's an insult to imply anything but.

[mark clemson]

Hmm. Isn't the choice to put your spouse through the trauma of a (normal) divorce so you can see other people selfish too?

So a person who's unhappy with their spouse/marriage really has no choice. They have to be selfish in order to meet their needs because either way the spouse will get hurt.

If they believe (unrealistically) they won't get caught I could see them viewing cheating as the less selfish of two options to make themselves happier. People can get pretty miserable in an unhappy marriage. So, yes, they could go talk to their partners. But they may not want to "hurt" the person they've been with all their life with the prospect of divorce.

As for insults, well I've seen so many insults to WS's posted on these boards. POS OM etc, etc. Not you personally, but really think EVERYONE needs to grow a thick skin. I don't think some of the BS's like to deal with the fact that some of them seem to be lousy partners with all sorts of weird issues. The "must have vengeance" types are one example where it seems to show through on these boards, along with workaholics, and no intimacy types. No doubt there are others.

And of course "being a perfect spouse" isn't an answer, because some of the WS types really are a bit sociopathic, and so more truly selfish/self-centered, and so it doesn't matter that much whether they're happy or not.

No simple answers here, IMO.

Edited March 18, 2020 by mark clemson

[2BGoodAgain]

4 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Hmm. Isn't the choice to put your spouse through the trauma of a (normal) divorce so you can see other people selfish too?

So a person who's unhappy with their spouse/marriage really has no choice. They have to be selfish in order to meet their needs because either way the spouse will get hurt.

If they believe (unrealistically) they won't get caught I could see them viewing cheating as the less selfish of two options to make themselves happier. People can get pretty miserable in an unhappy marriage. So, yes, they could go talk to their partners. But they may not want to "hurt" the person they've been with all their life with the prospect of divorce.

As for insults, well I've seen so many insults to WS's posted on these boards. POS OM etc, etc. Not you personally, but really think EVERYONE needs to grow a thick skin. I don't think some of the BS's like to deal with the fact that some of them seem to be lousy partners with all sorts of weird issues. The "must have vengeance" types are one example where it seems to show through on these boards, along with workaholics, and no intimacy types. No doubt there are others.

And of course "being a perfect spouse" isn't an answer, because some of the WS types really are a bit sociopathic, and so more truly selfish/self-centered, and so it doesn't matter that much whether they're happy or not.

No simple answers here, IMO.

you make an interesting point, Mark.

but many times, as traumatic as a divorce might be... the betrayal is often worse, i think, and has much more lasting effect upon the spouse.

i think though it might have some legit issues, most of the time, this reasoning is a rationalization/excuse, rather than the main meat of their actions.

and in all honesty, no matter what justification they give for having an affair... in the end, it is selfishness... in that, it isn't about the other person's feelings that's the main motivator for what they do... it is b/c THEY don't want to go thru the uncomfortable feelings of telling the other person the relationship isn't working. it's about them. not the party they supposedly are worried about hurting.

I once kept a relationship past years... b/c i would use the justification that she'd been with me so long, she deserved it, it was the right thing to do, the hurt would be very bad for her...

in the end, i realized i didn't break up with her b/c i didn't want to go thru the discomfort of being the bad guy, or explaining why i wanted to break up, etc etc etc... in the end, if i really cared about her in any semblance, i'd have broken it off earlier and been that bad guy... so i could let her go... instead, i held onto her ... trying to be some sort of hero or good guy, when in reality, i was just being selfish. i realize this is just my own personal experience, but i believe it to be true in most cases... obviously, there's always exceptions, but exceptions can't be the basis of how rules work.

[DKT3]

@mark clemson

This idea that people cheat instead of divorce is flawed because cheating doesn't help. If a couple is heading towards divorce or at least one party is thinking about it cheating will only add layers to the difficulties of splitting two lifes.

I'm not sure how much you know about me, but I had no problem admitting I was a crappyv husband.  We've been together since high school and I took her for granted. She had convinced herself she was done and cheated. Which lead to divorce,  a delayed divorce with lots of pain resentment and anger that would not have been there had she just filed. Our children suffered because i wasnt mature enough to even deal with her for about a year, too much anger, resentment and pain. 

[mark clemson]

You make good points, gentlemen and for the most point I don't disagree. And of course none of us are perfect and I'm not saying that anything a spouse does makes cheating ethical. 

"Selfish" is an inherently subjective term. Was Trump's policy to build that wall selfish? Depends who you ask. So, what I'm doing is taking the perspective of some WSs who unrealistically think they're unlikely to get caught:

I (WS) am unhappy. But I would never put my kids/wife through the trauma of a divorce. I'll just have my fun on the side instead of being honest with my spouse. I'll feel better and no one needs to get hurt. It's not a particularly realistic view, but I strongly suspect something along those lines is the thought process for some WS. If you really see things that way, it can seem like a better, and indeed less selfish approach to the WS. IF "no one gets hurt" - ie, no Dday, no STDs, etc. As we know that's not particularly likely (although it can happen, too). A garden path in most cases.

Some BSs (and I'm not singling anyone out, trust me) can be seen as selfish too. Some ignored their WSs needs and requests for change. Possibly, they were too preoccupied with their own issues, etc. But I would never go labeling them all "selfish" with a blanket statement.

[Timshel]

On 3/17/2020 at 3:58 PM, pepperbird said:

One thing they almost always are is a coward.

For goodness sake, what has happened to people splitting principle as though it is something that can be split.  Of course cheating is for cowards, liars are the worst of a collective society; for many reasons beyond cheating and that's why in general people are repelled by them.  Good grief, if a person wants to be with you and only you, they will be.  If they dither then they do not.  Honestly, this is not a complicated equation to be figured...either a person is a liar or not.  If a person would rather be with another, in 2020, there is nothing stopping them except cowardice and a person who is equally enamored by such.  

[pepperbird]

15 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Hmm. Isn't the choice to put your spouse through the trauma of a (normal) divorce so you can see other people selfish too?

So a person who's unhappy with their spouse/marriage really has no choice. They have to be selfish in order to meet their needs because either way the spouse will get hurt.

If they believe (unrealistically) they won't get caught I could see them viewing cheating as the less selfish of two options to make themselves happier. People can get pretty miserable in an unhappy marriage. So, yes, they could go talk to their partners. But they may not want to "hurt" the person they've been with all their life with the prospect of divorce.

As for insults, well I've seen so many insults to WS's posted on these boards. POS OM etc, etc. Not you personally, but really think EVERYONE needs to grow a thick skin. I don't think some of the BS's like to deal with the fact that some of them seem to be lousy partners with all sorts of weird issues. The "must have vengeance" types are one example where it seems to show through on these boards, along with workaholics, and no intimacy types. No doubt there are others.

And of course "being a perfect spouse" isn't an answer, because some of the WS types really are a bit sociopathic, and so more truly selfish/self-centered, and so it doesn't matter that much whether they're happy or not.

No simple answers here, IMO.

If this is true, then the old chestnut excuse of " I didn't intend for this to happen-it just sort of did" out the window.

[mark clemson]

@pepperbird Not really. I'm talking about a certain percent of cheaters, not all. The just sort-of-happened folks may not have been particularly unhappy in the marriage IMO. They just made an error in judgment to go forward with it when they should have walked away/resisted any impulses instead, IMO.

[2BGoodAgain]

15 hours ago, mark clemson said:

You make good points, gentlemen and for the most point I don't disagree. And of course none of us are perfect and I'm not saying that anything a spouse does makes cheating ethical. 

"Selfish" is an inherently subjective term. Was Trump's policy to build that wall selfish? Depends who you ask. So, what I'm doing is taking the perspective of some WSs who unrealistically think they're unlikely to get caught:

I (WS) am unhappy. But I would never put my kids/wife through the trauma of a divorce. I'll just have my fun on the side instead of being honest with my spouse. I'll feel better and no one needs to get hurt. It's not a particularly realistic view, but I strongly suspect something along those lines is the thought process for some WS. If you really see things that way, it can seem like a better, and indeed less selfish approach to the WS. IF "no one gets hurt" - ie, no Dday, no STDs, etc. As we know that's not particularly likely (although it can happen, too). A garden path in most cases.

Some BSs (and I'm not singling anyone out, trust me) can be seen as selfish too. Some ignored their WSs needs and requests for change. Possibly, they were too preoccupied with their own issues, etc. But I would never go labeling them all "selfish" with a blanket statement.

can't disagree. 

and though, i'm sure there are some benefits to such a scenario, but human beings are if nothing but layers upon layers... and i think when you wipe everything away, that's what you get to.

a true liar doesn't lie 100%... they mix the lies with the truth.. so yeah, there may be benefits to kids, or situation, to relationships, etc... but it doesn't mask the true hurt that all that action/path causes.

i agree that people aren't perfect and everyone makes mistakes... but the only way you can truly change is to face the truth of your actions... the bare bone stark ugly truth... and then you can make some sort of change of course to your life, etc.

i dislike blanket statements as well..... but the more i think about it.. when you wipe away all the excuses, situations, complexities, reasons... etc... that's what you are left with. Me or them. I'm not saying people are evil or bad for choosing themselves or being selfish... to me being selfish = lying = ego = not paying a traffic ticket = anything... a sin is a sin... as the saying goes...

but not to recognize it for what it is when all is said and done..., to be comforted with a half truth, usually more to yourself than the others you have hurt... damages your own growth... and diminishes the hurt you caused others... 

i think sometimes people comfort themselves with half truths/half lies... b/c they feel if they admit they're being selfish, somehow they're a bad person... most people...almost all people are never bad... they make bad choices... most people want to be good, but sometimes, manytimes... they've forgotten how... 

recognizing selfishness doesn't mean you're a bad person...  it may mean, instead, that you're finally on a start to a better path, than the one you've been on....

just saying...

 

[mark clemson]

Yes, you have a point @2BGoodAgain - for those who are very unhappy but can't bring about changes and can't bring themselves to leave, a less selfish approach would be to stay in place (without cheating) and suffer "for the sake of the family". It's probably a fair statement that there's some % of marriages exactly like that (my sister's comes to mind). So in the sense that they could have done that instead, it's selfish of them to some some extent.

Of course virtually everything we do is selfish to some extent. Even eating plants - they could have been food for some animals instead. So, yeah there's no life without some degree of selfishness.

[mark clemson]

18 hours ago, Timshel said:

Of course cheating is for cowards...If a person would rather be with another, in 2020, there is nothing stopping them except cowardice

Respectfully disagree. What about police, firefighters, and soldiers who cheat? Perhaps you consider them cowards, but I don't. It seems to me they've made poor and/or unethical decisions, but aren't necessarily cowardly.  Although you certainly CAN leave a marriage, there's a lot of barriers. Costs, splitting your money, alimony, losing time with kids, etc, etc.

Now, all those things can certainly happen after one cheats, too. But I don't think most cheaters are thinking about that fully (certainly not as well as they should be).

 

18 hours ago, Timshel said:

liars are the worst of a collective society ...either a person is a liar or not. 

That's weird, my understanding is everyone lies. Certainly you can hardly buy anything these days without being lied to in some way, from hidden fees to excess packaging etc.

Certainly all our political leaders seem to lie. And our presidents do it habitually. We vote for them anyhow. Clinton and Trump are both liars and most likely serial cheaters too. They made it to the highest office in the world anyhow.  Not sure how well these views align with reality.

[2BGoodAgain]

32 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Yes, you have a point @2BGoodAgain - for those who are very unhappy but can't bring about changes and can't bring themselves to leave, a less selfish approach would be to stay in place (without cheating) and suffer "for the sake of the family". It's probably a fair statement that there's some % of marriages exactly like that (my sister's comes to mind). So in the sense that they could have done that instead, it's selfish of them to some some extent.

Of course virtually everything we do is selfish to some extent. Even eating plants - they could have been food for some animals instead. So, yeah there's no life without some degree of selfishness.

actually, i think people should do the less selfish act of the two... end the relationship, and move on... instead of taking those closest to you down with you unwillingly....

[2BGoodAgain]

22 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Respectfully disagree. What about police, firefighters, and soldiers who cheat? Perhaps you consider them cowards, but I don't. It seems to me they've made poor and/or unethical decisions, but aren't necessarily cowardly.  Although you certainly CAN leave a marriage, there's a lot of barriers. Costs, splitting your money, alimony, losing time with kids, etc, etc.

Now, all those things can certainly happen after one cheats, too. But I don't think most cheaters are thinking about that fully (certainly not as well as they should be).

 

That's weird, my understanding is everyone lies. Certainly you can hardly buy anything these days without being lied to in some way, from hidden fees to excess packaging etc.

Certainly all our political leaders seem to lie. And our presidents do it habitually. We vote for them anyhow. Clinton and Trump are both liars and most likely serial cheaters too. They made it to the highest office in the world anyhow.  Not sure how well these views align with reality.

Agreed.  everyone lies.... 

I'm not saying you can't call someone out on it... whether it be lying or cheating, etc... but i definitely do not subscribe to the reasoning that you demonize someone over it. 

everyone has a skeleton or dozen in their closets, i'm sure.... 

[DKT3]

54 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Respectfully disagree. What about police, firefighters, and soldiers who cheat? Perhaps you consider them cowards, but I don't. It seems to me they've made poor and/or unethical decisions, but aren't necessarily cowardly.  Although you certainly CAN leave a marriage, there's a lot of barriers. Costs, splitting your money, alimony, losing time with kids, etc, etc.

Now, all those things can certainly happen after one cheats, too. But I don't think most cheaters are thinking about that fully (certainly not as well as they should be).

 

That's weird, my understanding is everyone lies. Certainly you can hardly buy anything these days without being lied to in some way, from hidden fees to excess packaging etc.

Certainly all our political leaders seem to lie. And our presidents do it habitually. We vote for them anyhow. Clinton and Trump are both liars and most likely serial cheaters too. They made it to the highest office in the world anyhow.  Not sure how well these views align with reality.

Cowards in dealing with relationship issues, absolutely.  That is only one part of life.  I have several employees who have been or are currently being unfaithful.  In my opinion that doesn't make them less trustworthy in doing their job. 

There are levels or degrees of lying.  Simply calling someone a liar for cheating is not adequate,  it's more then that.

Again cheating instead of divorce isn't doing anyone favors. You are preventing your spouse from finding someone else,  you are teaching your children a unhealthy way of dealing with relationship issues,  and in most cases making the home a toxic environment.  A happy cheater doesn't necessarily mean a happy home,  which is the impression that I get you're getting across. 

[thefooloftheyear]

54 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

 

Again cheating instead of divorce isn't doing anyone favors. You are preventing your spouse from finding someone else,  you are teaching your children a unhealthy way of dealing with relationship issues,  and in most cases making the home a toxic environment.  A happy cheater doesn't necessarily mean a happy home,  which is the impression that I get you're getting across. 

What if they don't care about finding anyone else?  heck, maybe that's the root of the problem to begin with...

There are tons of ways to "cheat" someone in a relationship that doesn't involve sexual infidelity, and while everyone gets their selves all wound up around the aspect of infidelity, abandonment, apathy, verbal abuse, lack of caring about themselves physically, etc. are all forms of "cheating" the other person...it just so happens that infidelity is the mortal sin....

Despite knowing legions of divorced people in my life, not that many, if they are honest, will say that it's "better' than anything...It wrecks kids lives, it wrecks people financially, etc...

What Mark C mentioned, and I agree, its a virtual no win situation...A friend of mine just recently divorced..He was miserable...He didn't cheat, but everyone(including his own kids) have turned against him...He "broke up" their little world...He's the villain..They couldn't give a shyt about whether or not he was miserable...No one cares....Guys are supposed to just suck it up and take it...

I;ll say that in my experience its a no win deal for most guys,...Rarely you have a mutual deal, but there is a far better chance of that if the woman initiates the divorce...In those cases, most of the guys just signed the deal and moved on...There wasn't all that much acrimony....More like relief...

TFY

[basil67]

I'm not defending my previous cheating....but I will give a window into my "cowardice".

So we're back in the late 80's, husband developed what I now believe was depression. (depression wasn't a think back then)  Wouldn't go out, everything was doom and gloom, refused counselling either as an individual or as a couple.   Yes, I could have left, but the risk was that he'd be suicidal.  That's an enormous burden for a dumper to take on.   So I cheated in order both meet my needs and to stay around.   In the end, I left anyway.  And he DID attempt suicide when I wouldn't reconsider returning.  Thankfully he didn't succeed.

To my knowledge, he didn't ever have another relationship.  He still sends Christmas cards to my parents and there's never a mention of a partner or family. 

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, 2BGoodAgain said:

actually, i think people should do the less selfish act of the two... end the relationship, and move on... instead of taking those closest to you down with you unwillingly....

I think that's what WSs tend to figure out after their Dday and their life blowing up. No doubt when they're caught suddenly just owning up to their unhappiness and leaving seems like something they should have done instead. 20/20 hindsight and all...

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Cowards in dealing with relationship issues, absolutely.  That is only one part of life.

Fair enough - that's a reasonable view. I don't compartmentalize "cowardice" in that way, but I can see how one could see it that way.

[salparadise]

I think the thing that's missing in all of this reasoning is that human beings are not inherently monogamous creatures; the concept of being eternally faithful is relatively new and by no means universal throughout time and cultures. There are many top level rationalizations, but underlying that we have a biological drive for variety, plus an undeniably strong need for affection, attention, validation, affirmation. So you combine a marriage where those needs aren't being met, or it has gone flat, or any number of normal or abnormal circumstances, and then an opportunity pops up... an attractive person of the opposite sex pays you a certain kind of attention and emotion takes over. Some don't want to resist, some are deliberate and even go out looking.

But the point I'm making is that it's not a paraphilia, it happens to good, normal people. This forum overall has a bias against infidelity... not that I'm a proponent of it, but just saying that it happens enough, and to enough different types of people, that it's not considered abnormal or evil (except by the BS). It's just something that people do... about 20-25 percent of them.

[Hip Pocket]

On 3/17/2020 at 10:56 PM, DKT3 said:

Yeah, I say cowardly.  At any point before they cross the line that could talk to thier spouse.  Love them as a good friend then stab them in the back? Who needs friends like that? I would prefer not too. Compassion? How? By cheating or lying about,  gaslighting or making a fool of your beloved friend who you care so much about. 

No, its pretty cowardly, totally self serving.  Hard to admit when you're the one who has cheated,  cheater usually justify and make themselves feel at ease during affairs, all you've mentioned is common cheater language 

“Common cheater language”. When you label people (like your partner) that way instead of understanding human behavior you’re likely going to get burned. 

[Hip Pocket]

On 3/18/2020 at 6:52 AM, pepperbird said:

I find this line of reasoning to be, well, nonsensical.
He/she doesn't want to hurt their spouse, so they go and do the one thing that's pretty much guaranteed to hurt them, blow apart the family and result in a huge blow to their BS's mental/emotional health.
But they are cheating out of compassion? Riiiggghhhttttt......

Either they are completely emotionally bankrupt to not see ow that could happen ( that;s bad) or they are lying( also bad). At least be hoenst. they simply don't care if anyone else gets hurt.

This kind of reasoning and posting is why you don’t see many MM explaining why they do what they do as you’re just so judgmental and have all the answers while they PM people like me and pour their hearts out. Yes they are selfish in loving and receiving love elsewhere but showing compassion by not forcing his wife to lose her home or split up her family. These things are prioritized by most MM and as long as their BWs are safe and happy they feel they can forego the fidelity. I don’t like it either but I understand it.