Church or secular marriage

[furio]

I've been meeting with my gf and some friends today and the topic of pre-marital church teaching came up (this is a Catholic country).

 

One of the friends said she had obtained her certificate years ago (no idea whether it is still valid) as part of school instruction. My gf said something along the lines that she (perhaps meaning we) will have to do so too. So I asked her whether she really wants a church marriage (she is not a churchgoer). Why not, she replied. This got me really alarmed. We debated the topic for a while and I clearly stated I do not wish to get involved in any way with Catholic marriage.

 

But then I have been uneasy for the rest of the evening. My gf did not return to the issue but I have the feeling inside that she will when I least expect it. Ok, she is for all purposes not a practicing, believing Catholic, and neither am I, though I do attend mass whenever I cannot excuse myself, so as to not irritate my parents (with whom I still live, as does she, however hers do not care).

 

Now I know that my family, especially my grandmother, will strongly push for a church marriage. If I had my gf on my side we could manage to have it our way, but alone I will not prevail. And I'd hate to force her to submit to my ideas. She may be indifferent to religion and even decidedly anti-clerical on occasions, but would not be flying in the face of tradition. Besides, you know that you can only throw a real wedding when you marry in church. With state marriages, you typically just invite the wedding guests for a series of dinners.

 

The reason that I do not want to get involved w/the church is that confession is obligatory before marriage (as it is a sacrament and the nupturient must be in the state of actual grace). I have not been to confession since teen years (now 29) and do not wish to recite my sins, some of which I do not accept to be morally wrong actions, to some priest I do not know. Yeah, I could always conceal some things (my gf's idea), but what would I think about myself afterwards? And why submit to confession if you don't believe in its sanctifying power, which is only effective if you recite all your sins and omit nothing consciously? If confession is valueless in my eyes, so is church marriage.

 

What do you think?

 

Regards

 

furio

[Tamrick]

I don't know much about Catholic traditions and marriage, being a protestant myself. My bf was brought up as a Catholic, but if we get married it will be in a protestant church of my choosing. I also do want to go to pre marital counselling.

 

Why not find a church where you both feel happy - I think a lot to do with marriages is more about how pretty it will be in the church. In my country there are churches who, for a fee, will marry you no matter what your beliefs are (I can't say I agree with this much, but that is how it is) Go and look around at various places to get married (churches or otherwise) and take her with you so you can both make a good decision and both feel comfortable with it.

[furio]

I'm afraid you really don't know anything about Catholic marriage.

 

There are no "churches of your choosing" - the procedure is uniform throughout the whole religion and the priests are not allowed to deviate. Only the Pope can grant dispensation if there is a marriage impediment, but even he cannot give the sacrament of marriage to someone who does not feel like a Catholic and does not want to confess his sins.

[quankanne]

not sure where you are from, but I'm guessing it's not the US ... from my limited understanding (and someone please help me out on this, esp. if I've got it wrong), if you're from someplace like Europe, where marriage has to be church AND state approved, you cannot drop the formal (church) ceremony.

 

the Catholic Church here also requires members to go through an Engaged Encounter ("Pre-Cana" is what they called it in my parents' day) session, in which marriage and all the things that are involved in that relationship are discussed. Here in my diocese, it's done in a one-day session, though people are pushing for a complete weekend to allow for more time for fuller discussion/teaching. You CANNOT be married by the Church without this or some form of pre-marital counselling, nor can you plan the liturgy (ceremony) anyplace other than inside a church or consecrated place (Hollywood is bad about showing outdoor weddings with Father So-and-So presiding over the Catholic liturgy, which is absolute BS, because the ceremony takes place within the celebration of Mass, and it's a LONG puppy to have to sit through. And there's no selection of music other than Church approved music, no Top 40 songs, etc. The Church is very picky about these kinds of things. But I digress ...)

 

I did not marry in the Catholic Church because there's a bit of an impediment existing, called "my husband's ex-wives." To be able to marry in the Church, we must have his first two marriages annulled, which will take up to two years, according to the lady in the tribunal office. However, once we get that done, we CAN get our civil marriage validated, or blessed, which we plan to do.

 

is there any way you guys can "back in" to a church wedding, furio? As in, having the civil ceremony, then coming back and having the marriage validated by the Catholic Church later? If this is allowable, it might be an option for y'all, though I will probably be smote for suggesting this

 

other question: How would a priest know if you've been to confession before getting married? That's a highly personal thing, one which he would HOPE that you would do before entering into the sacrament, but you're not bound to do, I would think. I'll have to ask one of the priests about this one, though ~ my understanding is that because a priest doesn't tally or mark the number of times you receive the sacrament of reconciliation or the Eucharist, how does he know if you do or don't? Morally, it'd be a good idea to "clean house" before taking the step, but I don't think I've ever been told that it is imperative. But that just might be the Catholic Church in the US, and how I was raised ....

 

If confession is valueless in my eyes, so is church marriage.

 

while this might hold true for you, it may not necessarily be the case in your GF's eyes. If she's considering a church marriage, that tells me she's taking her faith/religion seriously to some degree, and as the man who plans to spend the rest of his life bound to her, you're going to need to look at how you and she will approach the faith issue. My husband was raised Episcopalian, said he had no problem with marrying in the Catholic Church, but has been dragging his feet with the annulment. I'm a cradle Catholic who thought it didn't make a difference whether my marriage was validated by the Church, but as time goes by, I'm finding that it does, even though I'm not at Mass as often as I should be. I think it's inevitable that in a relationship, one person will feel more compelled to live by how he/she was raised religiously.

[furio]

Dear quakanne

 

I'm from Poland, which is a traditionally Catholic country, like it or not. Even though the figures have dropped through recent years, some 80% of the population still attends church regularly. What they UNDERSTAND of the faith they believe in is another matter, but not relevant to the issue at hand.

 

Civil marriage is all you need here; however, you can be married in a church with the priest obliged to sent the necessary documents to the civil register, and a church marriage is treated as civil for all purposes, except of course that it cannot be terminated by divorce.

 

For reasons I have mentioned in the first post, lots of people here marry in church, because of emotional issues if not peer pressure. Only divorced people who remarry do so in the civil registration office (because they have no other option). But the ceremony is short and the guests are not so numerous. No big wedding afterwards either (big weddings are anyway often seen as a waste of money if the newlyweds are not well to do, but that's another issue).

 

You ask how it is possible a priest will know whether I have confessed prior to marriage. The method is simple: you are given a slip of paper at the pre-marital course that must be signed/stamped by the confessing priest and returned to the curate or whoever has issued it. And when the confessing priest sees that slip, he knows that this is a pre-marital confession and I can bet my head he'll ask about sexual matters, and I can also bet he'll not believe should I conceal something about them (not believing means not granting absolution).

 

As to my gf, I can tell you plainly that she has no interest in religion whatsoever. She does not go to church, says no prayers, watches no religious programs, doesn't read the Bible or religious books, dislikes the clergy and right-wing Catholic parties... should I quote more? It may be, then, that she does not realize what she has to do in order to get married in church, and that it may be fairly unpleasant to her (see above on sexual issues).

 

So if the topic comes up again between us, it may fall to me to point it all out to her, and explain that she will not get away by concealing the truth in the confessional. The priests here have extensive files on everyone whom they visit during their yearly pastoral rounds after Christmas, and though they won't point it out to you directly, they know that you have not confessed for a long time, in which case you must be an obstinate sinner, and they can fairly assume you have sinned in sexual matters as well. Also, being the young fool I was a few years ago, I have written some fairly atheistic diatribes on the Usenet under my REAL name. Now they are archived for evermore on Google groups for everyone to see. If you wanted to excommunicate me, there is no better proof.

 

I know that uniformity of religious belief (or unbelief) is very important in marriage. I have had a brief but stormy relationship 3 years ago with a Jehovah's Witness, and I my current gf's religious indifference is a welcome contrast. It would be unpleasant if it were in any way disturbed.

 

Cheers

 

furio

[Outcast]

A lot of people, Catholic and otherwise, who fall away from their churches tend to fall back when marriage, and particularly children, are in the offing.

 

There are a lot of Catholics who still consider themselves Catholic even despite not believing every single tenet of the current Church. It is up to you whether you must in your own mind adhere to it completely to attend services or whether you can bear a bit of dissonace in belief/practice.

 

You do need to discuss (and that means 'discuss', as opposed to lay down the law) this situation with your gf. She may still long for the traditions she grew up with and do so more so if/when you have children. The great thing about premarital counselling is that you will discuss issues like religion, money, children, etc. and find out where you each stand and what may or may not need negotiating.

[furio]

Ok, so my posting here moved the fates in a sense and today I and my gf had an (unplanned) talk about this issue.

 

In short, the gist of this is: the gf wants to be married in church not because she is religious, but because "all women want it" (that is, she wants it, I could not care less what other women think). When I pressed her what exactly in church marriage makes it desirable for her, she did not know what to reply, and it was only with my suggestions that we arrived at the conclusion that it must all be about the music, the trappings, the bridal gown and similar things, certainly nothing spiritual.

 

I stressed to her that I am for all practical purposes not a believer (which I guess makes me an unbeliever, as there is no gray area, and folks who say they "believe but do not practice" like my gf really deceive themselves). She did not seem overly shocked, and she had good reasons not to be. I rarely talk about religion or spiritual matters, and do not overly criticize these areas either, so what could she expect really? Then I told them what I think about confession, and that I do not want to deceive the priest etc. (see above posts). I stressed that I will only agree to this if everyone around me will want me to marry in church. My gf's family, for example, probably won't, from what she told me. But then it is my family that I worry more about.

 

Of course, I'm not the first guy to go through this, but I prefer to honestly acclaim my unbelief rather than say things I don't believe into in my heart. Sincerity was always my rule in this relationship and I think it is worth to hold to it even if it causes a quarrel sometimes. Today there was no quarrel, yet of course the nagging doubt remains that she was not completely pacified, or will be dissatisfied in the future, but who can foresee the thoughts of a woman?

 

I don't even want to think about children and their education - baptism, church attendance, religion at school et cetera. But I try not to heap too many problems upon my head at once, because nothing good will come out of worrying, and things can change a lot in between.

[furio]

A lot of people, Catholic and otherwise, who fall away from their churches tend to fall back when marriage, and particularly children, are in the offing.

 

Would that be my lot, then?

 

There are a lot of Catholics who still consider themselves Catholic even despite not believing every single tenet of the current Church.

 

Of course, you can call yourself every name you like, but I don't need to tell you what I think about such persons. I genuinely appreciate people who have deep, understanding faith, in some sense I even envy them. But that does not include someone whose beliefs are an empty shell or a coverup.

 

It is up to you whether you must in your own mind adhere to it completely to attend services or whether you can bear a bit of dissonace in belief/practice.

 

Sorry, but if I wanted to embrace any religion without embracing all its tenets, I could not longer call myself an honest man. And I'm not talking about attending services. That would be the least difficult part, as I'm already doing it.

 

You do need to discuss (and that means 'discuss', as opposed to lay down the law) this situation with your gf.

 

That's true... but I'd rather not do this with a priest. Sadly, private premartial counselling is undeveloped here and certainly expensive, and my gf is a frugal person.

[quankanne]

whoa! I feel like a watered-down Catholic when I think of how the faith is practiced here, compared to what you've just shared! I've never really considered it from the viewpoint that you're seeing it ...

 

like in your homeland, a civil union is what is recognized, even those which are considered common-law marriage. However, I know that the Church here will convalidate a civil marriage if it meets church requirements (no impediments like previous unions left unanulled, etc). I guess my first question is, would your GF consider having your marriage blessed after you tie the knot in a civil ceremony, or is she pretty much wanting the big white wedding but not necessarily the religious/spiritual part? If this is the case, and you do get to the point of the pre-Cana/Engaged Encounter sessions, the priest is more than likely going to hammer away at her notion of ceremony for sake of the trappings, rather than focusing on the spirituality aspect, it's their job.

 

lots of people here marry in church, because of emotional issues if not peer pressure

 

the irony being that because of this "pressure," these marriages have possible grounds for an annulment -- they're marrying in the church under duress! At least I think this would fall under "forced matrimony."

[furio]

Dear guankanne

 

I don't really know how the Catholic faith is practiced in Texas, except that there can't be a lot of its adherents there - Texas never seemed to me a possible Catholic state like New York or Illinois, even though it was colonized by the Spaniards initially.

 

In Western Europe, for example, the CC is on the decline, and this may eventually happen in Poland too, especially as there is no longer a Polish pope, but it will take decades at best (but this is beside the point).

 

But to return to me and my gf, I don't think she would be opposed to the idea of civil marriage first, church marriage later. It would be as hard for her to meet the stringent church requirements as for me, and that could be a discouragement. The CC is quite ready to marry people who have lived together for many years as civil spouses (provided of course the right sum is tipped).

 

As for possible annulment grounds, marrying under duress is a rare argument in proceedings. If there are no children, the spouses usually claim they did not know the other party was incapable of producing offspring. If children are born, mental instability or immaturity is demonstrated instead.