UPDATE: New dad with grieving teenager - 2 months on

[Ellener]

This is a really bitter-sweet situation @Ollie180 

You are a person like me who looks for the gift or lesson in every difficult situation...but looking for the gift in our own demise is challenging to say the least. There's a Susan Sarandon movie about a dying mother Stepmom puts it all out there:

What are we going to tell the kids?

Maybe we should tell them the truth. They can handle it. It should've been me instead of you.

I'll go along with that.

Just do 'the best dad' you can honey. The next few weeks are going to challenge you just with the anger. It's part of the process of dying, we don't die well because survival was our big goal...Love love love...forget about the big things now, you just have to be there dealing with vomit and diarrhea and crying and anger...but you were chosen to be this dad in this position! The universe loves us....or at least responds to our loving nature.

For a child/teenager- keep some normality.

 

[Ollie180]

38 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Just do 'the best dad' you can honey. The next few weeks are going to challenge you just with the anger. It's part of the process of dying, we don't die well because survival was our big goal...Love love love...forget about the big things now, you just have to be there dealing with vomit and diarrhea and crying and anger...but you were chosen to be this dad in this position! The universe loves us....or at least responds to our loving nature.

For a child/teenager- keep some normality.

Thanks so much El 💛

I feel very much in just make-it-up-as-I-go mode right now. I mean.. I’ve been here before when I was a kid buttttt it was just different. This, I want to be there for DD (and for her mum), but it’s also really tough to know like what I can/can’t do or am/aren’t wanted.. you know?

like I felt really bad just dropping her at the door today and driving off, but that was what she asked me to do 🤷🏼‍♂️ And I called DD earlier and she didn’t answer.. I’ll try again in a bit.. but it’s just tough. Tough to be supportive but supportive from this distance y’know!?

 

Just trying to do my best really! ..They say right, however dark the night get the sun always rises 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

Thank you!!

[Ollie180]

So DD didn’t answer my second call either.. Then she text me like "Sorry! I'll see you tomorrow morning thou - can you pick me up 10 mins earlier for school xx".

Surprised me! I figured she'd just take the day off as she's only going to school 1 day a week at the moment anyway and even that not like 'proper school' because of covid. Butttt, if she still want's to go then she still wants to go I guess

[nospam99]

Hey Ollie. I hadn't read your update about ''mum's'' consult at the hospital before I saw you in the chatroom today. I hope you know that you have my concern and sympathy and that extends to DD and mum.

[Ellener]

We're all rooting for you @Ollie180

There's no easy way to die or let go of someone you love dying. 

I almost trained to be an end of life doula recently, then realised- this will make me fulfilled like nothing else, unhappy like nothing else!

This is not just a job for you, Ollie, it's now your life and your daughter's life. And the end of her mother's life.

You represent the normal and positive side of things for DD, even though you know what's coming is going to be mostly bad for a time. She needs your strength and positivity. I don't think you'll ever regret being emotionally available to support her. 

Just hang in there, don't feel rejected in the space they need without you to say their reality and their last words.

 

[Ollie180]

11 hours ago, nospam99 said:

Hey Ollie. I hadn't read your update about ''mum's'' consult at the hospital before I saw you in the chatroom today. I hope you know that you have my concern and sympathy and that extends to DD and mum.

Thank you brother! ✌️

5 hours ago, Ellener said:

We're all rooting for you @Ollie180

There's no easy way to die or let go of someone you love dying. 

I almost trained to be an end of life doula recently, then realised- this will make me fulfilled like nothing else, unhappy like nothing else!

This is not just a job for you, Ollie, it's now your life and your daughter's life. And the end of her mother's life.

You represent the normal and positive side of things for DD, even though you know what's coming is going to be mostly bad for a time. She needs your strength and positivity. I don't think you'll ever regret being emotionally available to support her. 

Just hang in there, don't feel rejected in the space they need without you to say their reality and their last words.

 

Wow, did you? Yeah I get that, certainly a very special thing to do but also an incredibly hard thing to do that surely takes a lot from the person!!

I think sometimes people think, that I, having experienced death so personally and so young, am automatically going to be a great person for them to talk to about their own loss... but the truth is I never really have been.. I’ve never found it easy to find the right words and sometimes all I’ve wanted to do when folk around me are going though things like that is, step back! ......But I don’t feel like that now, I don’t feel like that with DD... I want to be there as much as they’ll have be there ya know? There’s definitely something.. whether it’s instinctive or something else.. but there definitely something that makes me feel very connected to DD. I want to be there for her. And I want to be a.. good dad! A proper one!

[Ollie180]

I picked DD up for school this morning and her mum caught me at the door, asked me to try and ‘talk to her’ this afternoon when I pick her up. Said that DD just hasn’t really said much and  that, basically I think she’s worried that she’s not processing it or taking it in or whatever. So ja I’ll just plan something for after school and have a chat with her I guess.

She was okay this morning. A bit quiet, but okay. She looked really nice and I told her that and she was like ‘Thanks! I’m going for the makeup-can’t-fix-your-life-but-at-least-you-can-look-good-while-it-all-falls-apart vibe!’.

I dropped her in early because, her mum was going to tell her form tutor for her like the update but DD says she’d rather do it herself so yeah she was going to do that before class so, I guess I’ll see how that went too.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Ollie180

[Ollie180]

Picked DD up this afternoon.. we got some food and went up to the hills to eat while my dog had a run round.

 

She spoke about school, and seeing her school counsellor (which she doesn’t enjoy), but she didn’t speak about her mum. So after a bit I just said to her like does she want to talk about it. She was just like.. ‘I don’t know what to say Ollie - it’s sh** - they’re like the only words I have, but everyone wants more from me than that, mum, [bff], [form tutor], i feel like they’re all looking at me to say something really significant and I can’t! It’s just sh**! It’s a sh** situation’

So I was considering where to go from that and she just kinda put her head on my shoulder so I give her a hug I think maybe that was what she wanted cause she just sat like that for ages, and you know when like your just quiet with someone but it’s good.

 

Then she started asking me if it’s hard for me, if it reminds me of losing my mum and that......I told her basically like that in some ways it does.. but it’s not all bad in that way, cause also my mum was an amazing woman and being reminded of that is always bittersweet, and also like I want, not a do-over as such, but I want to make sure I’m there for her in a way that I didn’t have someone.

She said to me “I know. And I do appreciate what you do for me, and for mum. Serious, I knew you were a good guy because you were never mad at mum.. and you could have been”   

 

She also laughed and was like ‘I’m actually starting to miss having you around a bit when I don’t see you for a few days’, I thought, I don’t think you say that if you don’t mean it on some level.. so I said her like would she like it if I came over more.. even if I just popped over for an hour and we just walked the dog or something, and she nodded, so I think I’ll start doing that.

She said she’s okay too.. not like everything’s okay okay, but okay 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

Then I got in trouble from DD’s mum when we went back because she asked me what DD had said about everything.. I told her ‘it’s sh**’ and she was all for gods sake Ollie, you had one job Ollie 🤣😜

Edited July 8, 2020 by Ollie180

[Ellener]

@nospam99 is pretty cool, @Ollie180he and I and you are all very different people but we have all loved our children dearly, and reached out and touched each other's lives and hearts. Maybe that's what it's all about, when all is said and done: The best portion of a good man's life is his little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.

( Wordsworth )

There's no way to deal with death positively, we are programmed to survive, to live, and to avoid negative experiences like being alongside the dying. All I can tell you is it's like parenting- difficult, intense and mostly worth it.

Maggie Callanan and her friend wrote a book called Final Gifts: Understanding the special awareness, needs and communications of the dying.

It's not an easy read, but it's not easy work. Neither as a job or to live and then die well oneself! But you knew all this the day you hiked up the volcano with another special loving human....you just didn't realise how hard it might be. For a while.

It's so much easier being young and fit and well. That's what your daughter is communicating to you. 

She is feeling the tension between enjoying and living her own life, versus the life going out of the wonderful woman who gave her life. 

How could that not be sad? I would have kept wonderful you as a back-up-dad plan if I could. Everyone needs parents.

We're the ones who take the weight of the world on our shoulders whilst the young ones grow up!

 

 

 

[Ollie180]

3 hours ago, Ellener said:

Maybe that's what it's all about, when all is said and done: The best portion of a good man's life is his little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.

( Wordsworth )

I absolutely love that!! You’re so right as well!! Something that my mum always said to me was that you have a light in you, and that light is kindness, but you have to be brave to be kind! She’d say ‘the world needs that light Ollie, even when it’s hard’.

I believe wholeheartedly in the goodness of people, and I think the way you sustain that (even when the 10 o’clock news is always so grim) is to keep your eyes open to all those ‘little acts of kindness’! ..I can say I’ve been blown away by the support offered to me by strangers who don’t know me from Tom, Dick or Harry! 

3 hours ago, Ellener said:

@nospam99and her friend wrote a book called Final Gifts: Understanding the special awareness, needs and communications of the dying.

It's not an easy read, but it's not easy work. Neither as a job or to live and then die well oneself! But you knew all this the day you hiked up the volcano with another special loving human....you just didn't realise how hard it might be. For a while.

It's so much easier being young and fit and well. That's what your daughter is communicating to you. 

She is feeling the tension between enjoying and living her own life, versus the life going out of the wonderful woman who gave her life. 

How could that not be sad? I would have kept wonderful you as a back-up-dad plan if I could. Everyone needs parents.

We're the ones who take the weight of the world on our shoulders whilst the young ones grow up!

Yeah yeah you’re spot on! I think.. when we’re Young we’re not very good at contemplating mortality of ourselves or those around us... I still find it tricky at 35! So it’s hard I think when life forces teenagers into having to face the reality of it...sooner than they should have to in a “fair world”!

 

back up dad! Haha I like it! Maybe we’ll start a new trend of back up parents!

 

Thanks El

[Ellener]

5 hours ago, Ollie180 said:

Thanks El

I wish you were my boy's dad....

The next few weeks are going to be tough.

Be not afraid. 

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

 

[SincereOnlineGuy]

 

(catching-up, after a week)

 

(deep sigh)  Oh the coming months are gonna be a challenge...

 

I guess  that human instinct is to want  to serve your daughter as somebody who is SOOOOOOOOOO prepared and poised that he can LEAP to respond no matter in what way the concern presents itself most immediately... AS IF playing Jai Alai... with the (ball) ready to carom in any direction, and thinking it soooooooooooooo important (as a dad) to get a jump on the ball  just to be nearer so as to feel/seem (slightly) better prepared to offer the best response (for immediate term, near term, AND long term).

 

But MAYbe...    (against every human impulse)...  a significant challenge here is the need to wait and let the individual concerns present and define themselves as clearly as can be hoped... before you can best devise a response most ideal for each individual upcoming step.

In Jai Alai terms, that sounds like a recipe for sure defeat (hence the urge to be ready and alert in Jai Alai).

 

In real life  it is probably way too easy to think and say  "I know how you feel"  to folks you've known your entire life...  let alone young ladies you only first met in 2020.

 

Maybe  it takes some useful patience  to allow the feelings of another  to define themselves (at least somewhat)  beFORE we can be of very best comfort to the person in the face OF those feelings.

 

If it didn't matter  as much, it wouldn't be as challenging.

 

(*** clarity:  I have zero impulse that Ollie has done even a single thing wrong ...      and I recognize that I THINK his role is psychologically created for him to succeed with flying colors... because much of it is family bonding that is pre-destined toward success)

Ollie  will likely gain the most  when just  listening...    (is what I'm trying to say)

 

(and who knows  for precisely WHAT you'll be listening...  just (guess)  looking ahead that you'll know it when you hear it)   

(and even if it doesn't fit precisely what you were so dutifully attempting to anticipate, you'll benefit for having paused  to take-in ALL of what you heard, so that you can respond precisely to that, and not to something you had in mind independently of "DD")

 

 

[Ollie180]

21 hours ago, SincereOnlineGuy said:

(But MAYbe...    (against every human impulse)...  a significant challenge here is the need to wait and let the individual concerns present and define themselves as clearly as can be hoped... before you can best devise a response most ideal for each individual upcoming step.

...

Maybe  it takes some useful patience  to allow the feelings of another  to define themselves (at least somewhat)  beFORE we can be of very best comfort to the person in the face OF those feelings.

 

If it didn't matter  as much, it wouldn't be as challenging.

I hear you... like listen to what she’s actually saying before we assume to know what she’s saying

i guess as well the other difficult of it is, your human nature wants to fix the problem straight away but I know first hand that doesn’t work.. grief is such a time thing isn’t it, and you have to allow someone the time to just feel what they’re feeling without trying to fix it 🤷🏼‍♂️ But that goes against the instinct! You want to take the problem away!

[Ollie180]

Picked DD up this morning in went into town with my gf.

They were just doing some makeup shopping while I was getting us some milkshakes and cold apple pie to have on the beach. As it turns out my gf informed me after she has very good chat with DD during this time! 🙌🏼

She was like ‘it’s mad how like you she is, she does that exact same thing you do, when you feel emotionally vulnerable, of flipping the conversation ever so smoothly so you end up talking about the other person instead’ (since when do I do that? Gf has never told me before that this is something I do!? 🤷🏼‍♂️😂). But she was like ‘Ols, don’t think I’ve been with you for 3 yrs and not worked out how to get around that’ 🙈

So yeahh.. she was with her for like half an hour max but apparently she had a proper good chat with her.. she said DD just said like just because she isn’t crying and that doesn’t mean she isn’t Sad or doesn’t get it, but that she doesn’t want to be sad all the time she still wants to have a laugh and that because, for her, that’s what ‘balances life out’. (That was good to hear). She also said that one of the saddest things for her isn’t saying goodbye to the relationship they have but to the one they’ll never have, as in she’ll never get to know her mum as an adult, have her at her wedding, that kind of thing. 

I’ll defo bring that up with her at some point, because though I wouldn’t ever assume to know how SHE feels, I can relate so strongly to that sentiment.. I know what it is to miss someone the most at all the happy times! And I know what has helped me over the years with that.

 

Gf also asked me if I wanted some honest advice.. which obviously I do.. and she just said to me to not overthink it because she thinks I’m doing an awesome job and it’s clear DD thinks that too but also that she doesn’t know if I realise just how much DD is looking for reassurance from me. She thinks DD looks to me a lot, like looks to see if I’ll put my arm round her, looks to check if I laugh when she makes a joke, just little things like that...

....She said like she gets I have a tendency to jump into things head first (very true), so she gets why I would approach this situation with DD with that in mind and try to follow her lead and not come on to strong (which again I’d say is true), but that she thinks, given the circumstances DD wouldn’t mind.. she was like “You could literally go full ‘papa bear’ on her and I think she’d be quite happy about it”

 

Really interesting point that ....and I’d be a fool not to listen to what she’s saying. I don’t feel like I hold back on DD, but I do try to look for her lead and then follow it... maybe I do need to readjust that a little, FaceTime her rather than tell her to call me if she feels like it, go give her a hug rather than wait for her to come approach me for one, and maybe not worry about coming on a bit more strong with some of the stuff I say to her.. 🤔

[chillii]

Def' meet her in the middle somewhere even over the middle. This is all new to her too , she doesn't know what to do let alone lead , so you can be her dad , hug her , love her , she's ready now and waiting for more from you. l don't mean bowl her over but just don't be afraid to show more and lead a little . There couldn't be a more important time for her to know you love her and that you've got her and your there and not going anywhere, she has her father . On her mom , not sure , but you did good not pushing it earlier, she needs time first of all it's such a huge thing . They see everyone pushing and waiting and expecting , many don't realize how astute kids are, but first of all she has to figure out what she wants to say and feel herself . And then there's you now too , that's a lot  to deal with , but thk God your there now. Sometime not far away when you ask she'll probably just go for it , sometimes you'll feel she needs too she'll just need a gentle prod and opening, maybe two , that's how my d works and it will often all pour out from there. But other times it won't , l can tell when it will or not so l'll drop it when needed l know it's in there now and when she does feel like it later sometime ,it'll all come out .

[Ollie180]

On 7/11/2020 at 2:16 AM, chillii said:

Def' meet her in the middle somewhere even over the middle. This is all new to her too , she doesn't know what to do let alone lead , so you can be her dad , hug her , love her , she's ready now and waiting for more from you. l don't mean bowl her over but just don't be afraid to show more and lead a little . There couldn't be a more important time for her to know you love her and that you've got her and your there and not going anywhere, she has her father .
...

Sometime not far away when you ask she'll probably just go for it , sometimes you'll feel she needs too she'll just need a gentle prod and opening, maybe two , that's how my d works and it will often all pour out from there. But other times it won't , l can tell when it will or not so l'll drop it when needed l know it's in there now and when she does feel like it later sometime ,it'll all come out .

Yeah you’re right, you’re absolutely right!! I tried to keep it chill for her initially but I do get it, like with all the uncertainty/upheaval/stress in her life right now.. I totally understand why she needs security right now.. and I get why she’d look to me for that reassurance, I’m glad it’s something my gf pointed out to me because I want to be able to give her that!

I tried this weekend to be a ‘step up’ in that regard, and I could genuinely feel that make a difference!

I think as well that she’s so 15 going on 30 most of the time that it’s really easy for me to forget just how young she is.. and she is still young!!

 

Sunday morn I was doing a little boxing sesh with her outside, I used to box yearsss ago so we was just joking around really, showing her a few moves and letting her beat me up haha, and when I finally called for mercy she just gave me a hug and didn’t let go for what felt like a long time, so I said to her like ‘come sit down with me kid and let’s have a proper chat eh’ - and we genuinely did have a good talk, I think like you say she felt more ready! And I also think like maybe be previous “do you want to talk” was too wishy washy, I think maybe come-her-let’s-talk is better for her..

[Ellener]

I think we're always learning as a parent @Ollie180 

I realised something myself this week, my son does not want for example to campaign for social justice, for everything to become some big lesson or cause! He and I were talking and he said 'God I hate you sometimes!' He texted me later and said I love you, which I know, but he's kept me at a distance since, and I realised- the way I rationalise or deal with a difficult situation isn't the way he does; in fact he's now better at it than me! He's calmly sleeping through the pandemic and making the best of it, I'm the one who worries all the time. 

Putting yourself in situations where it's normal and calm and fun, things a 15 year old needs even in all the uncertainty and sadness, she'll open up to you, and is.

Now I need the grown son alternative! I could kick myself for that last conversation...

 

[Ollie180]

5 hours ago, Ellener said:

I think we're always learning as a parent @Ollie180 

I realised something myself this week, my son does not want for example to campaign for social justice, for everything to become some big lesson or cause! He and I were talking and he said 'God I hate you sometimes!' He texted me later and said I love you, which I know, but he's kept me at a distance since, and I realised- the way I rationalise or deal with a difficult situation isn't the way he does; in fact he's now better at it than me! He's calmly sleeping through the pandemic and making the best of it, I'm the one who worries all the time. 

Putting yourself in situations where it's normal and calm and fun, things a 15 year old needs even in all the uncertainty and sadness, she'll open up to you, and is.

Now I need the grown son alternative! I could kick myself for that last conversation...

 

Well you know, to my mind it’s a sign of successful parenting when you raise an adult that’s able to express their opinion! Most of the time it’s much easier to folk to go with the flow and go along with someone whether they believe it or not (especially when that someone is someone you love).. even if you guys don’t agree all the time you’ve raised a man who can express his opinion 🙌🏼
My mum always used to tell me “Be who you are boy, and the world will adjust”

[Ellener]

He's calling me tomorrow, I'll try and tone it down 🤱

There was a quote on The Simpsons years ago: your half-assed over-parenting is worse than your half-assed under-parenting! I was watching with my younger son who gave me a knowing smirk! What I have to remember now is he's a grown-up who needs zero parenting...

5 hours ago, Ollie180 said:

“Be who you are boy, and the world will adjust”

She was cool 👩‍👦

[Ollie180]

On 7/14/2020 at 12:30 AM, Ellener said:

What I have to remember now is he's a grown-up who needs zero parenting...

Ahh now know I don’t know if that’s ever true!! I’m 35 and all grown up (in theory he says) and there is definitely times I feel like I would appreciate some parenting!! 😂

[Ellener]

On 7/15/2020 at 1:27 PM, Ollie180 said:

Ahh now know I don’t know if that’s ever true!! I’m 35 and all grown up (in theory he says) and there is definitely times I feel like I would appreciate some parenting!! 😂

You ok?Me and NoSpam will always be old enough to support you! ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Ollie180]

On 7/28/2020 at 3:20 AM, Ellener said:

You ok?Me and NoSpam will always be old enough to support you! ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Thank you!! 😊 I appreciate the support and advice you guys have given me!

Things have been quite full on here recently! DD’s mum has been in hospital all week, so DD’s been staying with me. She has been more upset as well.. I think it’s suddenly an undeniable reality for her that she can’t just put to one side in her head.

DD’s mum still wants to be able to go back home but, I dunno, I dunno if that’s going to happen or not, it’s still up in the air.

[Ellener]

22 minutes ago, Ollie180 said:

Thank you!! 😊 I appreciate the support and advice you guys have given me!

Things have been quite full on here recently! DD’s mum has been in hospital all week, so DD’s been staying with me. She has been more upset as well.. I think it’s suddenly an undeniable reality for her that she can’t just put to one side in her head.

DD’s mum still wants to be able to go back home but, I dunno, I dunno if that’s going to happen or not, it’s still up in the air.

In the Unitarian church we say this Tagore poem:

Peace, my heart, let the time for
the parting be sweet.
Let it not be a death but completeness.
Let love melt into memory and pain
into songs.
Let the flight through the sky end
in the folding of the wings over the
nest.
Let the last touch of your hands be
gentle like the flower of the night.
Stand still, 0 Beautiful End, for a
moment, and say your last words in
silence.
I bow to you and hold up my lamp
to light you on your way.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

10 hours ago, Ollie180 said:

Thank you!! 😊 I appreciate the support and advice you guys have given me!

Things have been quite full on here recently! DD’s mum has been in hospital all week, so DD’s been staying with me. She has been more upset as well.. I think it’s suddenly an undeniable reality for her that she can’t just put to one side in her head.

DD’s mum still wants to be able to go back home but, I dunno, I dunno if that’s going to happen or not, it’s still up in the air.

Oh wow.  That's a lot for a teen to deal with :(.  Virtual hugs for both of you.  ❤️

[mark clemson]

Quite a story Ollie and I think you deserve kudos for how you've handled phase 1 of this giant curveball life has thrown at you. Hopefully the next few phases will go as well too.

Losing her step dad and now facing the same prospect with her mom are no doubt very hard on your DD. I'm certain that she really appreciates having you in her life.

It sounds like she lost the step dad while living in that same house? If so, I could see why she doesn't want to live there now. Too much grief associated with it, the whole place may start to feel like a giant and somewhat inescapable reminder of both losses to her. I wouldn't suggest pushing for any changes now, but something to consider/keep in mind for down the road. You might also consider some grief counseling for her after the mom passes if that's readily available and DD seems amenable.

GL! I suspect everyone who reads this thread is rooting for you and for DD.

Edited July 30, 2020 by mark clemson