simpycurious Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 32 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said: Sooo... Lessee if I got this straight... -Guys that are successful and have money are no good....Too boring and stiff and worried about gold diggers. -Guys that are sexy and hot with ripped bodies are imbeciles and it's too much work keeping other women away...so forget those guys.. -"Alpha" qualities just describe guys who are bullies and aszholes, and its just a characterization derived by PUA to get money from struggling low level incels..It's not real.. How do these guys wind up with all the top tier women they do/?? I guess its some kind of magic?? TFY I "think" Cookie is referencing HER EXPERIENCES and not saying ALL MEN. She is entitled to her own opinion as is everyone else. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Spider Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) I can’t speak for every woman, but I believe for most a lot of money would be a plus if it is coupled with other attractive attributes. So it’s more an amplifier than something that is valuable in and of itself. I’m glad that you know a lot of guys that are having success with it, thefooloftheyear. Or that there are guys here that are having success that way. I just know I’ve passed on men I’m pretty sure were wealthy because their personalities sucked. If they were getting ‘top tier’ women, they wouldn’t be checking for let alone getting turned down by women like me. Most of the very wealthy men I have otherwise encountered have very basic partners or they struggle dating like the rest. I don’t see the the sugar daddy/trophy thing play out as often as I hear about it. Then again, I live in the Midwest? I know it does happen. Here is an excerpt from a livescience article I found. Tldr; a study found people tend to match up in terms of money + attractiveness. I don’t know who said hot guys struggle with women. Also not sure what alpha qualities are, so can’t comment on that . Quote When researchers compared qualities such as level of attractiveness and socioeconomic status within couples, they found almost no evidence of the trophy wife stereotype, which suggests attractive, young women tend to marry rich and successful men. Instead, couples are far more likely to end up together because they share similar traits. For example, attractive, wealthy or highly educated people are more likely to choose a partner with the same qualities. The same is true for less attractive, low-earning or less educated people. Trophy wife marriages still happen, but not nearly as often as expected, the study revealed. [7 Beauty Trends That Are Bad for Your Health] "I find that handsome men partner with pretty women and successful men partner with successful women," Elizabeth McClintock, a professor of sociology at Notre Dame who conducted the study, said in a statement. "So, on average, high-status men do have better-looking wives, but this is because they themselves are considered better looking — perhaps because they are less likely to be overweight and more likely to afford braces, nice clothes and trips to the dermatologist, etc." McClintock analyzed the traits of about 1,500 couples in their early 20s who were either married, living together, or dating a minimum of three months. She looked for evidence of any beauty-status exchange: attractive people who "trade" their good looks for a wealthy partner or a partner with high social status. Beauty-status exchange makes it possible for an attractive woman to climb the social ladder by marrying a wealthy and often less-attractive partner. While McClintock did find a strong correlation between level of attractiveness and socioeconomic status, the two traits usually go hand in hand. Studies published in the Journal of Applied Psychology and the National Bureau of Economic Research have shown that more attractive people tend to be more successful economically, and it may explain why the stereotype persists. "I've heard doctors' wives referred to as trophy wives by observers who only notice her looks and his status and fail to realize that he is good-looking too and that she is also a successful professional — or was before she had kids and left her job," McClintock said in the statement. McClintock's study, published on June 9 in the journal American Sociological Review, also reveals a problem with the "wife" part of the trophy wife stereotype. Even though research published last August in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology has shown that men may be threatened by women's success, in the few couples who did show some kind of beauty-status exchange, the less attractive but more successful partner was not always a man. So, trophy husbands are likely just as common (or uncommon) as trophy wives. tldr, basically, a study found people tend to match up in terms of money + attractiveness. I also don’t know who said hot men fail with women. Not from what I’ve seen... It’s the most blatant way to succeed. Also not sure what alpha qualities are, so can’t comment on that Edited March 21, 2020 by Cookiesandough Link to post Share on other sites
preraph Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 For the record, most women I know, given the choice, would rather BE the one making that much money than finding a man who had it. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites
nospam99 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 cookies said: ''I just know I’ve passed on men I’m pretty sure were wealthy because their personalities sucked. If they were getting ‘top tier’ women, they wouldn’t be checking for let alone getting turned down by women like me. '' @cookies. What do you think distinguishes 'top tier' women? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 I'm fairly certain that any man who is very wealthy (I'm not talking upper-middle-class, I'm talking >$500k/year wealthy) and who spends that wealth lavishly, will have quite a few conventionally-attractive women throwing themselves at him. I've seen it happen with H's bosses (who are, umm, let's just say NOT physically attractive). But it's also fairly obvious that those women are in it solely for the money, and the man is just a vessel for the money. Not something that everyone would be okay with, even if some men are. Link to post Share on other sites
preraph Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 I guess I've dated two wealthy guys, and neither of them spent money on me at all. I'm sure it's probably mostly due to their fear of attracting a golddigger. But I'm not sure. One of them, he spent a lot of money flying to see me, but expected me to pay for everything for the long weekends, and I wasn't loaded with money at the time so it limited things somewhat, but it was okay. The other I think was just terminally frugal. His money was inherited and possibly "not yet" or something, but it was clear he had more money than his situation accounted for. And HE was looking for a rich woman. We were friends first and I didn't know he was married because he never took the poor woman out. My whole crowd didn't know, apparently. Anyway, didn't last once I found out but we were friends who still checked on each other and so he told me when he found his rich girl. So he was a golddigger, for whateer reason. I bet he was hard to live with though, being so frugal as I saw him, anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, simpycurious said: Not true TFOTY (sorry abbreviated) plenty of Alpha Males, with money, fit and are not STIFF.....you can be COOL and have those attributes and still not be a "tool" just an FYI for you It was a purely sarcastic post. TFY Edited March 22, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Did I mention that women hate patronizing brown nosing, kiss ass men? Just thought i'd throw this out there ... TFY Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Cookiesandough said: I can’t speak for every woman, but I believe for most a lot of money would be a plus if it is coupled with other attractive attributes. So it’s more an amplifier than something that is valuable in and of itself. That's the key,. and on that I agree...but you didnt originally specify that...To say "80% are just stiffs" is probably overstating it or just bad luck on your part, and not indicative of reality.. TFY 1 Link to post Share on other sites
basil67 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 4 hours ago, preraph said: Now, before you poo-poo plumbing I see what you did there 😂 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Spider Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said: That's the key,. and on that I agree...but you didnt originally specify that...To say "80% are just stiffs" is probably overstating it or just bad luck on your part, and not indicative of reality.. TFY ....I specifically wrote “80% of the ones I’ve met/dated”. and if anything I am understating it. I have my own ideas as to why too. Some of what FMW said. Or maybe they think that’s enough and often lead with that.. but it’s not enough for everyone. We’re not all prioritizing having a security blanket or someone to buy us nicer stuff than our friends SO does. On another train of thought. I can see money being important to some people who didn’t have much and want a lot. Or want someone that can match their lifestyle. I’ve never really wanted for much and have always happily lived well beneath my means, so maybe it’s not as important/attractive to me Edited March 21, 2020 by Cookiesandough Link to post Share on other sites
preraph Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 5 hours ago, Cookiesandough said: Also 80% of the ones I’ve met/dated with have been really stiff, tightly wound, and/or boring in some way. You know what, now I think about, so were my two. One was better than the other. One couldn't carry on a good conversation. Nice, but I just got tired. The one that was a friend, I could talk to, yeah, but he was still kind of stiff in some way. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 5 hours ago, SumGuy said: Nevertheless you know it was bound to go there, it’s simple and simplistic and a term with a hundred descriptions, so a fascinating exercise in projection and selection bias. I agree. To me it seems like originally a concept that has some validity for some, possibly many women, but that's sort of been usurped by people now, particularly PUA and incel types. So both people who want to make a buck attempting to teach lonely guys how to find love and a convenient excuse for men who aren't seen as desirable or who have personality issues. I'm not "alpha enough" or "I'm alpha" therefore it's "natural" for me to treat women poorly or want to go my own way and therefore I've never settled down, etc. So, things that aren't really leadership traits per se. I do think there's some danger of circular definitions. If women like "alpha traits" (and I think many do) does that mean by virtue of women finding a trait attractive it's "alpha". Some women prefer men with more money. Does that mean having money is "alpha" in and of itself? Money can give you power in a certain way in our culture, as well as material resources so is being rich "alpha"? What about having a handsome face, which clearly can help. Alpha trait? Dunno. I do think there's exceptions to every rule. As noted by several folks above, the specific traits that a specific woman values/find attractive will vary. Some things also may be unconscious, like the "broken attracts broken" phenomenon where partners from dysfunctional backgrounds sometimes find and feel comfortable with each other, despite significant problems. And just like some men find "complicated" women alluring, some women go for a-hole and even dangerous men. In addition, I suspect some women don't want to deal with competing for "alphas" and some may prefer the emotional security of a somewhat less desirable and/or "beta" guy (and so presumably less risk of infidelity occurring, but possibly good stable dad material etc). Also, like men, women pursue different "strategies" in mate selection, for example the ones looking for a guy to "fix". He's "almost good enough" and if I can just make him a little bit better, viola - BF material. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Cookiesandough said: Here is an excerpt from a livescience article I found. I think that's very interesting and valuable. I do think there's a certain amount of "like attracts like", maybe more than I realized. I do question the age range - it looks like it says couples in their early 20's. Certainly an important age for pairing, but I wonder if they did 40's-50's it would show a greater preference by women for wealth. Young people tend to have a lot of energy and often a good amount of confidence in their future. I think perhaps later in life people are more attuned to the importance of having money for securing their future as they've now experienced how much it can take to live an lifestyle with a large house, frequent vacations, and security for eventual old age etc. Not to mention sending kids to college without incurring large debts, etc. So my theory is, some women later in life sort of say, F all that, just show me the money so I can enjoy things without having to worry about living to 90, etc. I could certainly be wrong. Edited March 21, 2020 by mark clemson 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Spider Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) Couple other thoughts I’d like to add... a lot of guys complain of women being misleading with what they want or virtue signaling because they see guys who they deem are jerks for example succeed with women while these women are saying they want nice guys. They conclude she really wants a jerk. I think this fallacious reasoning because it doesn’t mean it’s being a jerk that is what is attracting her, but his confidence and ‘backbone’. If he’s treating women like a jerk, he often doesn’t have that fear of keeping her or not being able to impress her, so he’s more genuine and has stronger boundaries with her. These are attractive traits in people. But then people from PUA culture and the like aim to mimic the ‘jerk’ aspect and it just comes off so cringe and disingenuous.. I have to believe women with even the slightest emotional intelligence see this. I also note that PUA culture encourages flashing money and most men who are into this that have money are only making like 100 grand or so a year but they consider themselves ‘rich’ and women should be falling over them. The men I knew who actually had money were not steeped in the culture and did not act that way. It’s really sad. oh and nospam I am not really sure, good question. Edited March 21, 2020 by Cookiesandough 3 Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said: it could not be him being a jerk that is what is attracting her, but his confidence and ‘backbone’. If he’s treating women like a jerk, he often doesn’t have that fear of not being able to impress her, so he’s more genuine and has stronger boundaries with her. These are attractive traits in people. Indeed. Some would call them... drum roll... "alpha" traits. (Although again there's that danger of circular definition.) There is also what he doesn't have, which is neediness/clingy-ness, which seems to drive many women off. He's the opposite of that pretty much. There is something called the scarcity effect (which we're seeing play out right now in society at large). I suspect it's a little more complex when it come to relationships, but there's the old adage about the one who wants the other person less having more power in the relationship, etc. I think to a certain extent being "cold"/emotionally independent can create a desire in a partner to earn validation from the more aloof one. Think this works with some people, certainly not all. Getting lots of their attention makes you content and perhaps take them for granted to a certain extent. But having them show less interest triggers something of a need to go and "win" their interest. So, a counter-intuitive psychological dynamic there. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
nospam99 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 @cookies. Then consider that some of those men might regard YOU as 'top tier' and be using their 'top tier tactics' when dealing with you. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Spider Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) @mark clemson I think the same, but if you read the study the article was based on , it’s not only people in their early 20s. hahaha very funny @nospam99. Edited March 21, 2020 by Cookiesandough 1 Link to post Share on other sites
simpycurious Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 3 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said: Did I mention that women hate patronizing brown nosing, kiss ass men? Just thought i'd throw this out there ... TFY You do say the nicest things and I sooooooo appreciate you mentioning this. Link to post Share on other sites
Silver_star Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 What qualities women look for in a man and value will depend on the woman, and her experiences in relationships, maybe her upbringing around relationships, her beliefs and views about relationships etc. The qualities of Money/Looks seem to be the only qualities OP brings up in the post and the ones that are brought up most often. Pick either combo of guy and there is a woman who may be interested in what he has to offer in a relationship. Broke guy/Average or below average looks, Broke guy/very attractive. Wealthy guy/Average below average looks, Wealthy guy/very attractive. I know guys in each of these categories. They have other qualities that make them good partners to a woman..It's almost as if they have personalities or something...hmmmm. 😛 Back to the question that was posed I value and am attracted to men who are good listeners, who make me feel beautiful, who make me feel protected and safe, who are a bit quiet and stoic in nature but with a very kind heart, and caring nature toward family and friends. Looks wise - Kind eyes, nice smile, self care. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
lonelyplanetmoon Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Silver_star said it very poetically. Those are also the things I value in a man! Def gets my attention more than money or looks would. I am financially independent and like cookie, I am happy living below my means. It is a lifestyle choice. Link to post Share on other sites
IntBrowser Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/20/2020 at 2:24 PM, SummerDreams said: Everything in your sentence is subjective. Her "good" looks and the "whole package". So I don't know how your sentence helps the progress of the discussion tbh. Normally high expectations comes with good looks Link to post Share on other sites
SummerDreams Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 1 hour ago, IntBrowser said: Normally high expectations comes with good looks Also subjective. We don't know what high expectations for every single person means, and we don't know what good looks for every sungle person means. I've seen beautiful women with mediocre men, I've seen handsome men with ugly women, old men with young men, stupid men with intelligent women and so on. So the only rule in relationships is, there are no rules. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Spider Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, simpycurious said: You do say the nicest things and I sooooooo appreciate you mentioning this. Oh and simpy has always been real. He calls it like he sees it! Edited March 22, 2020 by Cookiesandough 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SummerDreams Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 38 minutes ago, Cookiesandough said: Oh and simpy has always been real. He calls it like he sees it! Indeed. It's refreshing to see there are still men like him out there. It makes me hopeful that superficial people who only care about looks will not prevail. That my sister who is 15 years old and my other sister who is 5 years old will live in a world where men will still search for women's soul. (i'm being more dramatic than needed, I'm sorry, things are weird these days psychologically with everything that's going on in the world :S) 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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