Reaching out to her ex-fiancé for COVID19 Info

[BMI03]

I am struggling to balance jealousy with understanding. This is a ‘me’ thing more so than about my wife's actions I think, so looking for some observation, insight, guidance on how to handle my own actions and feelings around this.

 

Short version:

My wife has been reaching out from our home in North America to her ex-fiancé, who lives in a European country facing the COVID19 pandemic. They are both doctors so it’s with the purpose of trying to inform herself with some first hand information on how it’s being handled. She’s traditionally been quite open about any interactions with him, which had not been more than a couple instances during our marriage, but she had reached out to him and shared with me that they have interreacted a few times this week in this context.

I am facing an internal struggle at the moment where the logically thinking and reasonable side of me understands her actions, and feels they are justified in that any added help in this unprecedented event is valuable to both her work, and our family’s health. However, the emotional and jealous side of me hates that this is a man who she once loved, was planning to marry, and I wish she matched the aggressive over-communication that I implement myself where I openly share all communications with my ex wife with her without prompt, forwarding emails, texts, etc. (we share a child so there are communications that are necessary and I want my wife to see all of them).

So I am upset with her, but understand and appreciate her actions at the same time. It is leading to an internal conflict within myself having these parallel feelings. I’m frustrated, but reluctant to express this frustration towards her as well. Which leaves it both unresolved, as well as unfair to her in that I am not sharing. But sharing frustration with her would feel petty and undeserved.

I feel stuck.

 

 

Long version:

A bit about the way I think first. I rarely complain out loud to my wife about the things that bother me. It’s not healthy, but my instinctual approach to life is that there is a reason for everyone’s behavior, and in each’s own mind everything they do is justified for some reason or another. If I believe someone’s intentions are good, then if the outcome impacts me negatively I can’t be mad at that person, though maybe mad at the circumstances. For instance, if someone cuts me off on the road, I may be initially miffed, but my brain quickly goes to the idea that I don’t know why they did that…they could have a pregnant wife in the car, or a dying parent in the hospital, etc. Yes, they could just be an ass, but the point is that I just don’t know, and likely they had a reason important to them (even the ‘ass’ may be late to pick his kid up from school). I don’t know why I justify people’s actions this way. I have an analytical way of thinking, so cause and effect is everywhere for me. I think viewing things this way makes life simpler for me. I don’ need to be angry and frustrated all the time by others, but instead can empathize with them.

I look at my wife the same way. Actions she takes that upset or anger me, I think about the ‘why’, and I know in a lot of cases there are innocent reasons why. So I justify it in my own mind, tell myself I should not be upset with her, and accept it. Did she leave a mess on the kitchen counter? Yep, but she grew up with a maid, and she tries, so I get it. Did she leave the bathroom cupboards open? Yep, but she was in a rush to get to work. Did she sleep in, leaving me to take care of our 1 year old son while I was also working from home balancing meetings with diapers and bottles. Yep, but she has depression and anxiety and works in health care, so these days have been hard on her emotionally. I consider the situation, come to an understanding that these things are not personal attacks at me, and I smile and move on.

Except I don’t.

In the pit of my stomach, though I tell myself I am not upset at her because these actions are reasonable, I still have a frustration. Maybe not directly at her, but at the situation. It’s a frustration without a subject to be mad at because it conflicts with my equal understanding of the reasons why. So the emotional and logical parts of my brain are at odds with one another and so I feel conflicted.

The most recent situation that brings me here today is this: She was once engaged. A boyfriend of a couple of years who was with her through some hard family times she had, and who she broke it off with after moving from her birth country to North America (for those familiar, this is not the later boyfriend of 6 years who had physically abused her prior to my meeting her, who I think she absolutely loved and thought she would be with forever). After she had broke it off when abuser, months before meeting me, she considered getting back together with this former fiancé. This individual is a doctor, like her. After she left for North America he left for Europe. The started speaking again and starting planning a meet up, but somewhere it fizzled out, she says due to her telling herself it was a step backward, not forward.

She’s been open about him. That she loved him. That he was an amazing support through a hard time. That they never really spoke much after their break up until discussing getting back together. She pro-actively told me the couple of times he had reached out since we were together, wishing her well before our wedding, and congratulating her again after our son’s birth. She’s told me that she’s happy that she can see him as a friend, and being able to see him on facebook with another woman in her arm and smile for him was a big step for a typically jealous person she admits she is.

In this pandemic, my wife has been reaching out to several fellow doctors she knows working in Europe, to help understand what we are going to be facing here. Among them she reached out to her ex-fiancé who is right in the middle of the fight in a hard hit area. She shared with me that she had been texting with him. I didn’t ask how many times, but it seems like she is connecting every few days. The detail she shared was enough to know it was likely a lengthy exchange, not just high level ‘how-you-doings’.

Part of the rub for me I think, is that I have an ex-wife who I share a child with. I want my wife to feel safe with that dynamic and so unprompted I forward off all email communications, screen-shot all text conversations. She doesn't ask for that visibility, but I do it so as to leave no doubt in her mind that she has 100% visibility of those interactions, and she has shared that it has made her feel safe and helped her form a strong trust in me. I wish she did similar, but it loses it's value if it's being asked for. So again, I feel a sadness for not receiving the same openness from her, but logically I have not expressed this need, so again I feel conflicted.

So I am upset with her, but understand and appreciate her actions at the same time. It is leading to an internal conflict within myself having these parallel feelings. I’m frustrated, but reluctant to express this frustration towards her as well. Which leaves it both unresolved, as well as unfair to her in that I am not sharing. But sharing frustration with her would feel petty and undeserved.

I feel stuck.

 

Thoughts, comments, opinions welcome. Thanks in advance for those that took the time to read.

 

Stay safe everyone.

[mark clemson]

As a spouse, the boundaries of a relationship are yours to set. However, an important caveat is that setting boundaries that aren't reasonable tends to backfire, causing friction and sometimes worse. I think you need to BOTH rein in your somewhat unreasonable jealousy (he's in Europe and at least some of this is professional) AND have a calm, friendly discussion about what's bothering you. He really doesn't need to send "emotional" communications of any kind to her and it's not completely crazy to ask that she forward his emails/comms, so long as nothing's privileged, etc.

12 minutes ago, BMI03 said:

... it loses it's value if it's being asked for.

Perhaps, but one mistake many of us tend to fall into eventually is starting to assume our spouse knows what we're thinking. Do you want "lower value" or do you want to be worried about what might (but almost certainly actually isn't) in the emails/comms?

This is just how I do things, but my view is that friends, including opposite sex friends, are fine, but the spouse should have the right to nix any specific friend if they feel threatened. (One can always go find new friends.) That's a bit tougher with a former fiancee, but hopefully she will recognize it's important to you to feel emotionally safe. For me, I would accept her contact with him so long as I could read all comms, but that's just me. I wouldn't let this turn into something that caused lots of friction, if I could help it.

[lolablue17]

A classic case that can be resolved in a conversation with her. 

You don't complain about the actual reaching out, but you're upset because she didn't have enough sensitivity for your feelings. She has to understand that it's a big thing for you. She should have shared the fact that she's going to reach out to him, before she did it, and letting you be involved in all messages and emails. The fact that she informed you in retrospect, and didn't present all communication to you, only a brief, hurt you. 

Talk to her about it. She probably was too focus on her own emotions on that and dismissed yours. So tell her

Edited March 27, 2020 by lolablue17

[basil67]

All theses copies of your conversations you share with your wife....it sounds like overkill.   Is it something she actually wants from you?   Could it be that she trusts you and expects the same in return?

[JS84]

So what he's the only doctor in the world she can talk to or get information from?? Her ex-fiance??

[elaine567]

As a doctor she will be very very interested in Covid -19 and the fact she has a contact right in the middle of the action will be fascinating for her.
Doctors often have a connection that "ordinary" people cannot understand.
She no doubt has questions, that only he on the front-line can answer and as they were once close she can probably be honest with him about her fears and worries.
Non medical people often do not "get it" and medical people can end up shielding them..
Being able to tell it as it is to a close colleague can be a relief.
I think as this pandemic is an unprecedented event then perhaps give her some slack. Medical people love talking to other medical people.
Unfortunately you feel a bit out of the loop, but  medicine is a vocation and for many it comes first.
She knows that, he knows that...
 

[JS84]

My father's been a doctor for over 3 decades, my mother has been a nurse for over 4 decades, I've been an ER nurse for 1 decade. We're constantly talking about Covid-19, sharing resources, trying to find informative webinars, talking to other healthcare professionals, etc. I find it very hard to believe that in a global pandemic she needs to deal with the ONE doctor who she used to be engaged with on any basis. Seeing how NY is quickly approaching where Italy is I don't see why she can't reach out to doctors in the states for information. It is not uncommon for doctors to confer or reach out to specialists to share information, even if they've never met. And I'm pretty sure she has connections outside of her ex-fiance. Especially closer to home if he's on the other side of the planet. Doctors don't tend to hoard medical information or keep it to themselves. Especially during breakout illnesses/pandemics.

Just my opinion but you should have tried to shut down communication between the two of them even before this. I have no idea why she would need to contact her ex-fiance on any level unless they shared children or something along those lines. There are plenty of resources for Covid-19 out there for medical professionals and unlike the general public we tend to be better at shifting through the bulls***.

Edited March 27, 2020 by JS84

[BMI03]

On 3/26/2020 at 2:12 PM, mark clemson said:

As a spouse, the boundaries of a relationship are yours to set. However, an important caveat is that setting boundaries that aren't reasonable tends to backfire, causing friction and sometimes worse. I think you need to BOTH rein in your somewhat unreasonable jealousy (he's in Europe and at least some of this is professional) AND have a calm, friendly discussion about what's bothering you. He really doesn't need to send "emotional" communications of any kind to her and it's not completely crazy to ask that she forward his emails/comms, so long as nothing's privileged, etc.

Perhaps, but one mistake many of us tend to fall into eventually is starting to assume our spouse knows what we're thinking. Do you want "lower value" or do you want to be worried about what might (but almost certainly actually isn't) in the emails/comms?

This is just how I do things, but my view is that friends, including opposite sex friends, are fine, but the spouse should have the right to nix any specific friend if they feel threatened. (One can always go find new friends.) That's a bit tougher with a former fiancee, but hopefully she will recognize it's important to you to feel emotionally safe. For me, I would accept her contact with him so long as I could read all comms, but that's just me. I wouldn't let this turn into something that caused lots of friction, if I could help it.

Thanks very much. Great advice. I know she would drop the communication in a second if I asked her, and the communication in no way makes me think she would cheat. It's more a case of the discomfort it causes with knowing this person was close to her, and feeling disconnected from her within this context. That's why I struggle to even think it is worth bringing up, yet still wish she was proactively open as I have been. So I think it's less so the contact itself, and more the feeling of uneven action to make each other feel safe that's got me down. You are right about the concept of thinking that our spouse should know what we are thinking...I think that is part of it too.

Thanks again.

[BMI03]

On 3/27/2020 at 4:28 AM, lolablue17 said:

A classic case that can be resolved in a conversation with her. 

You don't complain about the actual reaching out, but you're upset because she didn't have enough sensitivity for your feelings. She has to understand that it's a big thing for you. She should have shared the fact that she's going to reach out to him, before she did it, and letting you be involved in all messages and emails. The fact that she informed you in retrospect, and didn't present all communication to you, only a brief, hurt you. 

Talk to her about it. She probably was too focus on her own emotions on that and dismissed yours. So tell her

Ya, you are right. I don't think it's the actual action of contact that bothers me. Like I said, it makes sense to me, and appreciate it even. I think it's more so the feeling of being an afterthought that this could make me uncomfortable when I do a lot to ensure proactively that she never feels like an outsider to any relationship I have with anyone from my past. 

[BMI03]

On 3/27/2020 at 4:46 AM, basil67 said:

All theses copies of your conversations you share with your wife....it sounds like overkill.   Is it something she actually wants from you?   Could it be that she trusts you and expects the same in return?

It may be, but earlier in our relationship when she didn't know me well yet, but knew I had close interactions with my ex for sake of my daughter, she told me that oversharing is what allowed her to gain a trust for me. She expressed to me that it made her feel safe when she is typically a pretty jealous individual. There were two times when I started to relax on it, and while it seemed ok at the time, one unknown communication and it played to her insecurities and led to issues. Less so because of any actual problem, and more so due to other debates of which that became a "I thought you send me ALL of those!?" points. That's been a few years ago now, but since then it's easier I just send them all than try to decide myself what's relevant or not. Then she can sort out what's of interest to her. And I'm ok with that...I like to know she feels safe, and I don't know what may be relevant to her mind that may not seem such a big deal to me.

[BMI03]

On 3/27/2020 at 5:50 AM, JS84 said:

So what he's the only doctor in the world she can talk to or get information from?? Her ex-fiance??

That's how I feel. It's true that he's the only one uniquely in deep in this situation, but still gives me that 'wtf, really?' feeling.

 

 

[BMI03]

On 3/27/2020 at 6:51 AM, elaine567 said:

As a doctor she will be very very interested in Covid -19 and the fact she has a contact right in the middle of the action will be fascinating for her.
Doctors often have a connection that "ordinary" people cannot understand.
She no doubt has questions, that only he on the front-line can answer and as they were once close she can probably be honest with him about her fears and worries.
Non medical people often do not "get it" and medical people can end up shielding them..
Being able to tell it as it is to a close colleague can be a relief.
I think as this pandemic is an unprecedented event then perhaps give her some slack. Medical people love talking to other medical people.
Unfortunately you feel a bit out of the loop, but  medicine is a vocation and for many it comes first.
She knows that, he knows that...
 

I agree completely unfortunately. 

[BMI03]

On 3/27/2020 at 8:12 AM, JS84 said:

My father's been a doctor for over 3 decades, my mother has been a nurse for over 4 decades, I've been an ER nurse for 1 decade. We're constantly talking about Covid-19, sharing resources, trying to find informative webinars, talking to other healthcare professionals, etc. I find it very hard to believe that in a global pandemic she needs to deal with the ONE doctor who she used to be engaged with on any basis. Seeing how NY is quickly approaching where Italy is I don't see why she can't reach out to doctors in the states for information. It is not uncommon for doctors to confer or reach out to specialists to share information, even if they've never met. And I'm pretty sure she has connections outside of her ex-fiance. Especially closer to home if he's on the other side of the planet. Doctors don't tend to hoard medical information or keep it to themselves. Especially during breakout illnesses/pandemics.

Just my opinion but you should have tried to shut down communication between the two of them even before this. I have no idea why she would need to contact her ex-fiance on any level unless they shared children or something along those lines. There are plenty of resources for Covid-19 out there for medical professionals and unlike the general public we tend to be better at shifting through the bulls***.

Agreed

[BMI03]

She asked me if it was bothering me that she was in contact with her. I told her it was, and that I don't feel upset with her specifically, but the mood of mine she was perceiving was more this internal struggle between it making total sense to me that she would reach out to find out more on this virus, and this emotional jealousy in combination with it. This sick stomach feeling that even if it makes sense to me, and even though I know it leads to nothing with someone a world away, it just feels s**ty none the less. I told her that I think it's less the act itself so much as it is my going above and beyond to share so she feels safe, but not feeling like I get the same an needing to ask for it feels like I am being made to expose my insecurities instead of her proactively working to make me feel safe.

She told me she had not talked to him in several days, and would stop if it made me uncomfortable. She told me that all of the conversation was over facebook messenger, and she could read it to me. The trouble is that english is not their first language so I can't read it for myself. She said she could copy/paste it but doesn't trust that a translator would get it all correct and so can read the ideas of it to me.

This is a step in the wrong direction, but I am still frustrated. It still feels like there is a level of control she wants to keep on this, or that she is not taking the extra steps to take down barriers between her actions and my need to feel shared with. Again, not that I think anything is happening, but I just dislike that it doesn't feel like even footing in this regard. I don't like that she has a chance to polish the message before I see if, vs. the way I forward her the raw emails/texts I send my own ex.

Anyway, now I am just venting like a kid who wants it, and wants it his way also. Sorry all, but thanks for the advice.

[JS84]

Quote

She told me she had not talked to him in several days, and would stop if it made me uncomfortable.

 

Just tell her you'd like them to stop communicating for starters.

[lolablue17]

9 hours ago, JS84 said:

Just tell her you'd like them to stop communicating for starters.

Well, in this case I think you're pushing too much. When you said it bothers you, she responded well. She's suggests that she will stop all communication with him at all. She's also giving you accsses to ALL the messages for you to see. She's offering full transparancy. 

I belive that her response includes (without saying) better sensitivity for the future. She have leared how sensitive you are on that matter. So what else do you want? 

The translation is a none issue. If you don't fully trust her as a translator you can hire a translator in any web service (For example "fiverr.com" where experts will translate for you with a very low price). 

[oldtruck]

On 3/27/2020 at 7:50 AM, JS84 said:

So what he's the only doctor in the world she can talk to or get information from?? Her ex-fiance??

exactly this

he is not the only dr in europe that she can talk to

however he is a man that she dated and had sex with.

ex's are ex's for a reason. there is no need to break NC with this man.

[oldtruck]

On 3/30/2020 at 1:09 PM, BMI03 said:

She asked me if it was bothering me that she was in contact with her. I told her it was, and that I don't feel upset with her specifically, but the mood of mine she was perceiving was more this internal struggle between it making total sense to me that she would reach out to find out more on this virus, and this emotional jealousy in combination with it. This sick stomach feeling that even if it makes sense to me, and even though I know it leads to nothing with someone a world away, it just feels s**ty none the less. I told her that I think it's less the act itself so much as it is my going above and beyond to share so she feels safe, but not feeling like I get the same an needing to ask for it feels like I am being made to expose my insecurities instead of her proactively working to make me feel safe.

She told me she had not talked to him in several days, and would stop if it made me uncomfortable. She told me that all of the conversation was over facebook messenger, and she could read it to me. The trouble is that english is not their first language so I can't read it for myself. She said she could copy/paste it but doesn't trust that a translator would get it all correct and so can read the ideas of it to me.

This is a step in the wrong direction, but I am still frustrated. It still feels like there is a level of control she wants to keep on this, or that she is not taking the extra steps to take down barriers between her actions and my need to feel shared with. Again, not that I think anything is happening, but I just dislike that it doesn't feel like even footing in this regard. I don't like that she has a chance to polish the message before I see if, vs. the way I forward her the raw emails/texts I send my own ex.

Anyway, now I am just venting like a kid who wants it, and wants it his way also. Sorry all, but thanks for the advice.

google translate, it is good and free and there are other good free websites.

copy and paste it yourself using a few sites to compare.

[sandylee1]

This is a global pandemic. She isn't going to reach out to someone she doesn't know to discuss this issue. If he's in Spain or Italy especially,  he will have useful information.

 

I don't usually see the need to maintain contact with an Ex... but this is very different in my opinion. 

 

In relation to the messages... do you have access to her FB account...so you can see the messages and translate online.?

I do think if you have to do this though...you really have no trust. 

[oldtruck]

23 hours ago, sandylee1 said:

This is a global pandemic. She isn't going to reach out to someone she doesn't know to discuss this issue. If he's in Spain or Italy especially,  he will have useful information.

 

I don't usually see the need to maintain contact with an Ex... but this is very different in my opinion. 

 

In relation to the messages... do you have access to her FB account...so you can see the messages and translate online.?

I do think if you have to do this though...you really have no trust. 

she has been contacting other drs she knows in europe. so there is no need, reason or

excuse for her to break NC with an ex lover.

[sandylee1]

You're clearly very unhappy/insecure with her having contact with him,  so it's best you ask her to stop altogether.

 

Or if you want the raw messages forwarded to you, ask for it and you can decide how to translate it. 

Perhaps you should also stop forwarding her messages between you and your Ex. Surely she trusts you now to stop that.

[Robert2016]

Every spouse has a right to feel safe from infidelity.  Experience shows that X finances and X boyfriends are very (VERY) high risk. Especially if they stay in contact through social media.   

I don't think her asking you if the texting bothered you means anything.   It's likely her way of taking control and minimizing her behavior.  I don't think it's your wife's decision to out of hand reject your use of translation software to translate 100% professional texts.

IMO you should get a copy of all their texts.  You can discuss and/or clarify translation issues with your wife (or if necessary, someone else that speaks their language).

The fact that she avoided giving you the original texts (stating that a translator might incorrectly interpret their texts) is a red flag. 

Why?

First,  because an incorrect translation is something that can be resolved by you discussing it with her or someone that knows their language.

Second, out of all the possible translation errors/jibberish, it's a big leap to assume the translation software error will convert an innocent text into an intimate or personal text exchange.

IMO her reluctance suggests that there's something in the texts that she knows you would object to. For example,  anything personal vs medical, his personal compliments, or he still has feelings, he regrets loosing her, they discuss your marriage or his love life, or maybe he signs off with:  love or miss you). 

IMO, it's probably just stuff your wife enjoyed hearing (and at this early stage is probably 100% innocent on her part).  Further, she probably believes she's in control of her feelings and therefore it's harmless fun (plus there's the medical excuse).  However, this is false.   

Studies show that texting triggers the same emotional & chemical reactions in the brain as face to face conversation.  Studies show that personal texts trigger the same feel good parts of the human brain as cocaine and consequently emotions can escalate out of control very quickly.  

Therefore, it's not unreasonable for you to object to personal texts - and in view of her guarded response it's reasonable to be suspicious.  It's easier to fix this now.

Finally: people with nothing to hide - hide nothing.  If (after talking to you) she deleted the texts - then there was something in the texts she did not want you to see.

 

 

 

[Crazelnut]

I can't believe the level of insecurity and jealousy you BOTH appear to have. If I had to provide my DH with transcripts of every conversation I've had with anyone he might find "threatening," it'd be all over and vice versa. I've been in that situation before -- it's not sustainable or healthy. Sounds like zero trust in your marriage. 

[preraph]

I think your marriage has trust issues.  That said, pretty sure a doctor could get on a medical forum for that country or for the virus and get the same info from other doctors without having to tap her ex.  But you need to remember that no amount of monitoring can keep a cheater from cheating.  It only takes 10 minutes and can be done pretty much anywhere or by any method.  The other thing you need to remember is that if she is still into him, then it was him who had had enough of her and doesn't want her.  She could take every excuse to contact him, and he's in another country and the maximum benefit she could ever see from it is maybe he takes advantage of it for sex and then dumps her again.  

 

I understand that sometimes people build bonds and have something left over after a breakup and don't want to get back together or maybe one does but certainly the other does not. I mean, unless people are making boyfriends and girlfriends of people they have nothing in common with, there may be some viable friend bond left there.  It's hard for some to deal with.  I think when a spouse is friends with an ex, if they're active friends, meaning they see each other, then the spouse should be present and they should see that person as a couple, at least until and unless some trust is built after seeing how the interaction is now.  A lot of my bfs all knew each other and we were kind of a group, but it's not like someone was sneaking off with someone, and of course, the exes often had new girlfriends or were working on that.  I mean, point being you can usually tell when someone has something going on and when they're just friendly acquaintances or whatever so ex-tra people should be brought into the circle where the spouse can see them and the interaction.  If one is trying to get with the other, that's when you either shut it down or decide it's over. 

[ShyViolet]

I think you are being very insecure and controlling and you need to STOP.  The fact that you had previously forwarded all emails and screenshots of text messages between yourself and your ex-wife to her is a bit much.  It sounds like you were trying to set a precedent in which you could then expect her to do the same.  That's manipulative and controlling.  If you feel the need to read all her text messages, facebook message transcripts, whatever, then there is zero trust in this marriage.  This is all very unhealthy behavior. 

Either you trust this woman, or you don't.  How can you be in a marriage with someone you don't trust?  Her and the ex are in two different countries for god's sake, who cares if they message with each other?  She has a right to stay friends with an ex and correspond with him from time to time.  Some people do stay friends with their exes.