Guilty

[mark clemson]

26 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

..she is looking to continue to make unilateral decisions and trick her husband into believing she is something she isnt and into staying in a marriage that given all the information he may otherwise choose not to be in. That isnt loving, that isnt doing something in his best interest no matter how the thinking is twisted or covered in self servingness. Boiled down to its barest form,  this is all about not facing consequences, and not about saving others from hurt. Saving others from hurt would have meant not having an affair.  Call it what it is.

Hmm. These seem to me like opinions being stated as if they are facts.

(1) IF @Febbow genuinely changes and re-commits to her marriage then she is no longer "tricking" her husband. She is (now) genuinely as she appears (a now loyal and loving wife). She is hiding the fact of the EA/partial PA, but it is in the past, not the present.

(2) You are emphasizing the not facing consequences, but in actuality there is no reason you cannot do BOTH - saving her husband (and children) from distress AND protecting herself from consequences at the same time (IF she is successful in this). It seems to me that the logic of claiming that somehow only one of these outcomes is "valid" and the other "doesn't count" is an equally "twisted" (or at least incomplete) form of reasoning. Similarly, ascribing that only one motive is valid/real (the self-protection, not the protection of husband and children) also seems unrealistic. There can be multiple motives for the same action.

The logic here seems to be that one can never "kill two birds with one stone", but in fact we have a proverb for exactly that. Saying that "well, only one of those birds actually COUNTS" isn't particularly logical IMO.

[DKT3]

No matter if she changes and commit 200% it doesn't change that there is a really good chance that her husband would choose not to be in this marriage given all the information.  So barring her giving him the information she will still be "tricking" him into staying.  Her behavior going forward doesn't change that. This is something that cheaters dont seem to understand.  All they see is its saving pain.  Which isnt true by the way. Most BS are not clueless that the marriage is off.  Many bang their heads trying to figure what it is. There are tons of thread here with that very dynamic playing or had play out. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by DKT3

[SincereOnlineGuy]

6 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

But his sense of the relationship is based on lies. She already shattered the reality of their relationship. 

 

So she should then shatter HIM  as well??

 

That's a brilliant conclusion.

 

 

[SincereOnlineGuy]

5 hours ago, DKT3 said:

 given all the information he may otherwise choose not to be in. That isnt loving, that isnt doing something in his best interest no matter how the thinking is twisted or covered in self servingness. Boiled down to its barest form,  this is all about not facing consequences, and not about saving others from hurt. Saving others from hurt would have meant not having an affair.  Call it what it is.

"Given all the information" he may choose to kill himself, too (shrug).

Why bother telling him then?   Why not just buy him a gun?

 

He's had a decade to "choose not to be in" the marriage.

 

The hard rule on this common dilemma remains: 

"IF there is a reasonable chance that the betrayed spouse may learn through other means that a partner cheated, then the partner should confess first  in order to avoid the additional hurt caused by finding out through other means.  IF there is not a reasonable chance that the betrayed spouse will learn of the affair through other means, then you don't tell them at all, to spare them the hurt".   (to do so is nothing more than your own pathetic attempt to assuage your own guilt)

 

DKT3's statement is merely  living in the past ...    and the rest of us are well aware that nobody can turn back the clock.

 

Of course the grand idea of reducing ones own guilt is entirely popular among those who live in the realm of cheaters, but when it comes at the expense of another person it is merely doubling down on the wrongs.

 

And you know what they say:   "Two wrongs don't make a right "

 

 

[SincereOnlineGuy]

5 hours ago, DKT3 said:

Her behavior going forward doesn't change that. 

once again, you're still living in the past.

 

The rest of us are already 'forward'  while your analysis is all predicated on the past.

[Febbow]

SincereOnlineGuy I really like the manner and style of your writing. I agree with what you've written. Put into words beautifully. 

I'm not out to protect myself, cover my tracks and then just move forward without changing anything or myself.

I am going to use this opportunity to really learn and wake myself up to the reality of what I've done.

I promise. If I had any doubt then I'd not feel as justified in not telling. My husband would be devastated and his self esteem really battered.

If I imagine the shoe on the other foot and me never haven been in this situation , I couldn't fail to blame myself for him looking elsewhere. I'd feel I wasnt pretty or good enough. Some sort of fault with my personality. It really isn't. It's entirely *my* fault. I don't want him to have to deal with that. I don't know if he would fully understand . I guarantee he would stay in the marriage but he would be so sad and damaged. I choose not to give him that information (yet or maybe ever) .

I will think a lot over the coming months though and may reconsider. I do appreciate the wonderfully thought provoking calls for me to listen to those who have being on the receiving end of this horrible behaviour. I will explore the forum and read further other posts.

Of course he may find out from the OM but I doubt it highly.  And I know some would say I'm being selfish. Maybe I am. All humans are to some degree. But as HonestOnlineGuy says, if it's going to protect my marriage and not cause two wrongs then maybe I will go with that! At least until I work incredibly hard to redirect my efforts to building a stronger and much better emotional connection with my husband and fully cutting off my affair (prove to myself over long term I can do that! I can although itll be incredibly tough because I've invested so much and am definitely in love with the idea of who the OM represents/is!)

Perhaps then I tell him when I've proved to him my effort and ability to truly commit fully to him and our marriage. I think we are too fragile right now. And covid and kids ! 

As HonestOnlineGuy rightly points out I will have a hard road ahead to properly address my core issues that led to this. My husband is more than willing to come to MC and I will start IC now. We have both communicated deeply through this about past issues and errors. I really feel I've reached some sort of enlightenment during this year. A real maturing and spiritual awareness. I know I need to work out and tease out all the things that led to my poor , destructive,  hurtful and unforgivable behaviour. Trust me , I will. I'm not using this as some sort of sweep things under the rug until the next time. No way. Definition of stupid is making the same mistake twice. I'm not stupid. I will never do this again. If I need to, I will leave the marriage with respect and honour and allow my husband the opportunity to be with someone better and more suited. Although , I have high hopes right now that could be me. New leaf. New learning. Huge growth. 

Thanks guys. I appreciate you all. Ongoing top quality food for thought. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Febbow
Unclear

[pepperbird]

6 hours ago, Febbow said:

SincereOnlineGuy I really like the manner and style of your writing. I agree with what you've written. Put into words beautifully. 

I'm not out to protect myself, cover my tracks and then just move forward without changing anything or myself.

I am going to use this opportunity to really learn and wake myself up to the reality of what I've done.

I promise. If I had any doubt then I'd not feel as justified in not telling. My husband would be devastated and his self esteem really battered.

If I imagine the shoe on the other foot and me never haven been in this situation , I couldn't fail to blame myself for him looking elsewhere. I'd feel I wasnt pretty or good enough. Some sort of fault with my personality. It really isn't. It's entirely *my* fault. I don't want him to have to deal with that. I don't know if he would fully understand . I guarantee he would stay in the marriage but he would be so sad and damaged. I choose not to give him that information (yet or maybe ever) .

I will think a lot over the coming months though and may reconsider. I do appreciate the wonderfully thought provoking calls for me to listen to those who have being on the receiving end of this horrible behaviour. I will explore the forum and read further other posts.

Of course he may find out from the OM but I doubt it highly.  And I know some would say I'm being selfish. Maybe I am. All humans are to some degree. But as HonestOnlineGuy says, if it's going to protect my marriage and not cause two wrongs then maybe I will go with that! At least until I work incredibly hard to redirect my efforts to building a stronger and much better emotional connection with my husband and fully cutting off my affair (prove to myself over long term I can do that! I can although itll be incredibly tough because I've invested so much and am definitely in love with the idea of who the OM represents/is!)

Perhaps then I tell him when I've proved to him my effort and ability to truly commit fully to him and our marriage. I think we are too fragile right now. And covid and kids ! 

As HonestOnlineGuy rightly points out I will have a hard road ahead to properly address my core issues that led to this. My husband is more than willing to come to MC and I will start IC now. We have both communicated deeply through this about past issues and errors. I really feel I've reached some sort of enlightenment during this year. A real maturing and spiritual awareness. I know I need to work out and tease out all the things that led to my poor , destructive,  hurtful and unforgivable behaviour. Trust me , I will. I'm not using this as some sort of sweep things under the rug until the next time. No way. Definition of stupid is making the same mistake twice. I'm not stupid. I will never do this again. If I need to, I will leave the marriage with respect and honour and allow my husband the opportunity to be with someone better and more suited. Although , I have high hopes right now that could be me. New leaf. New learning. Huge growth. 

Thanks guys. I appreciate you all. Ongoing top quality food for thought. 

OP,
As a BS I can give you the following advice.
If you are going to tell your husband, do it before you got through all of that. I understand that your motives are positive, but think of it like this.,

Say the shoe were on the other foot. You had been asked by your husband to start working on your marriage because they were unhappy, and so you put in all the effort you can. The marriage improves, only for you to be told that one of the ways the ball got rolling on this enhancement was an affair?
I don't think there's too many BS who would be okay with that. Many would feel even more betrayed.

If you keep this secret that has to mean you keep it. End of story.

[mark clemson]

14 hours ago, DKT3 said:

No matter if she changes and commit 200% it doesn't change that there is a really good chance that her husband would choose not to be in this marriage given all the information.  So barring her giving him the information she will still be "tricking" him into staying.  Her behavior going forward doesn't change that. This is something that cheaters dont seem to understand.  All they see is its saving pain.  Which isnt true by the way. Most BS are not clueless that the marriage is off.  Many bang their heads trying to figure what it is. There are tons of thread here with that very dynamic playing or had play out. 

Your point that there is still deception is true. Also there is no question (or at least no argument from me) that damage to the marriage was done and to some extent pain to the BH was caused during the affair as well.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, the question is about what to do going forward. Although it's certainly not the only way to view it, it's possible and reasonable to view the path of not telling as an attempt to minimize pain for all involved (WS included).

I don't think there is a way past an affair that is both fully ethical and risk-free.

@Febbow be aware that there is always a risk of a Dday. If you do some reading around here, you'll find that they tend to be extremely traumatic, particularly for the BS. It is sometimes described as one of the most traumatic things that can happen to a person. There are some people who walk away relatively unscathed mentally but there are others who never fully get over it without therapy and similar help.

So, if one is not going to tell, IMO it is probably wise to (a) fully understand what is at stake and not downplay the risks and (b) do one's best to fully minimize that risk.

[DKT3]

There are only two ways to proceed with the betrayed spouses best interest at heart. 1) confess all and allow them to make the decision 2) walk away if you're unwilling to confess.

All other options are cruel and selfish.  Asking someone to go to therapy and "fix" a relationship without putting how you've contributed to the poor state of the relationship is cruel and selfish.  Allowing there to be an opportunity for that person to find out in another manner is cruel and selfish. 

I dont doubt her intentions are good, I dont doubt she believes, in this moment,  that she won't continue in her affair, the reality is she is more likely to continue then not, her best intention will more likely then not make her situation worse in the long run.

 

[Bittersweetie]

Febbow, considering you are not going to confess, and you are adamant that you will not enter any kind of affair situation again, how do you see your accountability looking for choosing this new path? It is VERY difficult to recover from an affair and walk on a new path without accountability, and unfortunately accountability to oneself does not always work.

I swore I wouldn't reach out again to xAP or look at his social media. I swore that things were over and I would never contact again. Yet days, or weeks, later I'd give in to the urge and reach out, or look at social media. Starting the cycle yet again. Honestly the only accountability I had was once I had a d-day. I have no doubt that without a d-day I would've eventually returned to contacting xAP or someone else, because I had no actual accountability, nothing was on the line. I wish I could say different but I can't.

So I am asking you, who will you be accountable to outside yourself? Is there a friend you can talk to or a counselor? Because this stuff is really, really hard and will take time and starts and stops and it's easy to return to old unhealthy habits...it helps to have someone to call you out on those unhealthy habits.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Bittersweetie

[heartwhole2]

12 hours ago, SincereOnlineGuy said:

So she should then shatter HIM  as well??

 

That's a brilliant conclusion.

 

 

The choice was already made when she had an emotional affair. Lying to cover up what she's done isn't noble or OK just because what she did was hurtful.

I am a BS, so I earned my brilliance the hard way.

[pepperbird]

45 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

The choice was already made when she had an emotional affair. Lying to cover up what she's done isn't noble or OK just because what she did was hurtful.

I am a BS, so I earned my brilliance the hard way.

There's some really pragmatic reasons to be honest as well, especially if the couple decides to attend some counselling sessions. If the therapist asks about infidelity, and they often do, lying will do far more harm than good.

[heartwhole2]

3 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

There's some really pragmatic reasons to be honest as well, especially if the couple decides to attend some counselling sessions. If the therapist asks about infidelity, and they often do, lying will do far more harm than good.

Yes, exactly. It's really not possible to rebuild on a cracked, shaky, or incomplete foundation. 

As I suggested earlier, if OP really thinks her husband wouldn't want to know, she can tell him the general gist without divulging exactly what was said or done. Then he can decide whether he wants to know the whole story. 

[mark clemson]

3 hours ago, DKT3 said:

All other options are cruel and selfish. 

Respectfully disagree, but of course you're entitled to your view.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

12 hours ago, Febbow said:

I choose not to give him that information (yet or maybe ever) .

 

Put as simply as possible.  The one reason for saying nothing that reigns high above all of this other, uh, bs... is that

 

"You can always  tell him... but you can never  UN-tell him".

 

Common sense dictates that you say nothing in this case.  (and I recognize that common sense  isn't very common in the Infidelity  category)

 

(the emotional affair partner won't say anything because he doesn't have the usual detective-taken photos of people entering hotel rooms, or the years worth of hard evidence which are so easily produced by (yet eagerly ignored by some of) those whose partners really are having physical affairs )  

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by SincereOnlineGuy

[SincereOnlineGuy]

2 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

The choice was already made when she had an emotional affair. Lying to cover up what she's done isn't noble or OK just because what she did was hurtful.

I am a BS, so I earned my brilliance the hard way.

 

I know BS's never have any effect on their own destiny, and that they had no hand in their own consequences, and that the choice made by the WS was purely inspired by their own, wholly-independent whimsical mood and feelings.   So clearly a BS automatically rates top billing for reasons of sound objectivity maintained throughout the duration of the "A"... and forever in its aftermath.

 

I get it.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

4 hours ago, DKT3 said:

There are only two ways to proceed with the betrayed spouses best interest at heart. 1) confess all and allow them to make the decision 2) walk away if you're unwilling to confess.

 

 

That is absurd.

 

If you want to "confess all"  -   go to the confessional, which is a facility for just that sort of thing.

 

Heck, why draw the line at an emotional affair ?

Why not ask and insist that your romantic partner confess all  every time they have an impure thought during a football commercial?

 

Why not demand that they confess all  when their thoughts turn to adding a bag of advertised pretzels  to their sex toys/enhancements as the result of that commercial?

 

Maybe they should confess all  when they notice  somebody nearly falling out of her top on the subway?

 

LOL -   why stop at the blatantly wrong, arbitrary line that you have chosen???

 

(that is the thinking of cheaters  and of the emotionally wrecked)   

 

(Logic and common sense need to prevail, even at times when you yourself can't recognize same)

 

[Febbow]

I am fiercely stubborn when I set my mind on something. I have told my mum, three best friends,  and brother everything. They will hold me accountable . They are there when I need them. I will call on them if I ever feel weak. But I genuinely think something has really clicked. Reading this forum/researching relationships/attachment styles/childhood trauma/spiritual growth and real love,  has opened my eyes. Made me realise how close I came to crossing even more lines and how much I've risked. How much devastation I have caused, and have the capacity to ongoingly cause. It's over.

I take the point about shaky foundations and also about marriage counselling. However, I really think telling all isn't necessarily as clear cut as is being made.

I would agree with Sincereonlineguy regarding telling him being final.. I really think it's hurtful and something that will shock him to his core. I don't want to do it. I know it doesn't excuse my behaviour  but I want to protect him from my massively selfish and stupid mistakes and just move on. Move on with my heart and mind fired up to fix this and put in triple the effort he does to build a marriage that won't be so weak the next time either of us is physically/mentally attracted to another.

Absolutely never repeat this pattern. If I think about doing it again, I will take it as a sign I need to exit and allow him someone that isn't as evil or cruel to make the same awful decision while 'awake' and twice. 

Thanks everyone. I'm reading and re reading your replies and everyone makes though provoking and interesting points. Even if I don't wholly agree with all, I will think them over. 

[oldtruck]

1 hour ago, Febbow said:

I am fiercely stubborn when I set my mind on something. I have told my mum, three best friends,  and brother everything. They will hold me accountable . They are there when I need them. I will call on them if I ever feel weak. But I genuinely think something has really clicked. Reading this forum/researching relationships/attachment styles/childhood trauma/spiritual growth and real love,  has opened my eyes. Made me realise how close I came to crossing even more lines and how much I've risked. How much devastation I have caused, and have the capacity to ongoingly cause. It's over.

I take the point about shaky foundations and also about marriage counselling. However, I really think telling all isn't necessarily as clear cut as is being made.

I would agree with Sincereonlineguy regarding telling him being final.. I really think it's hurtful and something that will shock him to his core. I don't want to do it. I know it doesn't excuse my behaviour  but I want to protect him from my massively selfish and stupid mistakes and just move on. Move on with my heart and mind fired up to fix this and put in triple the effort he does to build a marriage that won't be so weak the next time either of us is physically/mentally attracted to another.

Absolutely never repeat this pattern. If I think about doing it again, I will take it as a sign I need to exit and allow him someone that isn't as evil or cruel to make the same awful decision while 'awake' and twice. 

Thanks everyone. I'm reading and re reading your replies and everyone makes though provoking and interesting points. Even if I don't wholly agree with all, I will think them over. 

only two people can keep a secret, when one of them is dead.

you have told five people, who knows how many the OM has told.

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by oldtruck

[pepperbird]

putting aside the subject of confessing,

do you think the OM may try and reach out to you at some point? if so, what will you do? it can be helpful to have a "go to " answer so that, if you can't bring yourself to delete a message without replying, you'll have something ready.

[mark clemson]

@Febbow I tend to agree with @oldtruck  . This is a lot of people knowing. Friends sometimes fall out and a surprisingly large % of siblings end up alienated, e.g. over things like inheritances. "My best friend would never betray me" is no doubt true TODAY, but as they say "stuff happens," and in 10 years one could turn on you, your brother could get drunk at a family gathering, etc etc.

Also if one of them ends up a BS themselves - some BS's (as you have seen in this thread) feel that telling other BS's is a moral imperative. They could, in theory, decide to "do what's right" and blow up your life. The impact on your children notwithstanding.

Never underestimate other people's intelligence. If your husband ever starts to suspect there was an affair, he could call your family members (or friends) and say "I know there was an affair, I'm just trying to get the whole truth, please tell me what you know" or figure out some other way to trick others into divulging information.

I think you still have plausible deniability if you can (in a few months) claim this was all interest from the OM, not you, and family members and friends misunderstood what you said. You didn't kiss him, he tried to kiss you etc. But you are playing with fire much more than you realize I think with all this divulging.

If you've decided on the path of secrecy, you probably want to start clamming up and saving it all for the therapist ONLY. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for more stress and worry, and possibly the need to tell more lies.

Loose lips sink ships, and affairs are juicy gossip. Those who attempt to keep them secret need to avoid making mistakes like telling people who might tell others. You turning over a new leaf "inside" is positive, but it isn't enough. Your husband and family can still very much be hurt by the past now. That is something that will never change.

[DKT3]

@mark clemson assuming he needs proof. I personally didn't need it, I filed for divorce because I knew that's all that mattered. 

Also, after everything came out, I was shocked at how many people actually knew about her affair. None of who told me anything,  several did say that wanted to or most did. Including my sister in law 

Edited April 1, 2020 by DKT3

[Bittersweetie]

2 hours ago, pepperbird said:

putting aside the subject of confessing,

do you think the OM may try and reach out to you at some point? if so, what will you do? it can be helpful to have a "go to " answer so that, if you can't bring yourself to delete a message without replying, you'll have something ready.

Yes, this is definitely something to think about. My response was "Please leave me alone." I even practiced saying it in the mirror. Make it short and to the point...no need to be polite. Just have something so that if you get caught off guard you have an answer.

[pepperbird]

op,

You've mentioned that you want to begin the process of improving your marriage. What steps do you plan to follow? Are there any areas that you feel are especially important?

[heartwhole2]

Another concern that I have is that transparency is not only the foundation of a healthy partnership, but it's how you guard against infidelity in the future. Attention and hormones are powerful and any of us could rationalize "just a little more" until it's too late. I don't claim to be a significantly better person than my husband, though I think he might argue otherwise. But the reason that I have never cheated is that I always told him as soon as I developed a relationship with anyone . . . men, women, people online. I share all of my life. Why wouldn't I? 

You're deciding that you know better than he does what he needs to know or doesn't. There's a high likelihood that will bite you in the ass one day. But even if it doesn't, you lose when you settle for a relationship that is not based on absolute trust and respect. You benefit as much as your husband does from that kind of relationship. If you choose to curate his reality, there will always be something between you two.